Feedback on my self defense situation tonight

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by aaradia, Jul 16, 2014.

  1. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Hey all,

    Part 1

    So I had a minor self defense situation while leaving work tonight. I want to post it here and get people's feedback- good and bad. I am going to be detailed, so this will be long.

    Situation- - leaving work at closing and checking the front door from the outside to make sure it is properly locked. To my right 12 - 15 ft is our bookdrop (where patron can still drop off books during closed hours.) There is a tall guy obviously quite drunk drinking out of a bottle with a brown bag wrapped around it. Potential problems- 1. patrons won't be able to drop off books. 2. We have had an incident of someone drunk peeing into our bookdrop and damaging QUITE a lot of books in the past. 3. Other messes (defecation on walls etc. )from drunks and/ or homeless hanging out overnight.

    This really isn't that uncommon. So, I calmly let him know he cannot drink and hang out there and needs to move elsewhere. I have done this many times before and it usually isn't an issue. The person moves on without a problem most of the time. But this guy got beligerant and angry and started yelling and cursing. I calmly let him know, he just can't hang out in a public place drinking. My co-worker comes up at this time. She reiterates what I said and moves next to me. She says all he has to do is cross the street and not be on Library property. He starts gesturing and talking in a threatening manner. I could not hear the actual words besides cursing. She says she will call the police and it would be better for all if he just moved somewhere else. He continues so she gets the phone. Important to know. He is between us and the area we need to get to to get in our cars. A third co worker is on the other side watching the situation.

    As she is on the phone with police, he starts what my third co worker calls "mad dogging" he starts pacing in front of us - still cursing and in an aggressive manner. He had put his bottle in a bag. As he paced in front of us- still a few feet away - I told her quietly to step back slowly a couple of steps. I did the same, but I stepped a little in front of my co-worker as I moved back. I calmly noticed his distance, his hand position, the position of the bottle. I was about to set down my backpack that was in my hand to assume a "we don't want any trouble, but arms in a protective position" posture. But it wasn't quite necessary yet. And I didn't want to escalate things by putting the bag down. I could also have swung the bag at him.

    He went to the back alley. My co-worker finished the call to have the police come by to move him on. The three of us left together. I watched co-worker #2 get in her car.

    I was giving a ride to the other one and we left right after.

    Part 2 will be my self analysis.
     
  2. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Part 2 - Self analysis

    What came naturally that made me really happy!What I think I did right - In work situations in the past, I would get adrenaline rushes that made me shaky. I would feel all hyped up. I had to think about what to do. For the first time ever, I just felt calm and everything felt natural. No adrenaline rush. No nerves. I just calmly noticed all sorts of stuff about his postion, our position, where the potential weapon was (the bottle), his body language, etc. I moved my co-worker and I back to position ourselves better, to position myself to protect her as her hands were tied up on the phone AND she isn't trained. It was subtle. I am sure my co worker didn't notice I positioned myself to protect her. I also felt that moving back just those couple of steps deferred to his ego as he was trying to assert himself, but without showing panic.

    The best part is I didn't even think about it until afterwards. It is the first time I felt any of my training just became a part of me without having to think "ok, I should do this." I just clicked into some sort of mode that is hard to describe. It felt completely natural.


    What I think could have been better - Maybe my initial statement was too challenging. I have done similar things at work and it didn't blow up like this, but maybe there is a better way to phrase things. I don't think it was bad, but maybe it could be improved.

    Maybe once it blew up, there could have been better phrasing to de-escalate the situation and calm him down. But what?

    That is one thing I am particularly hoping others here can help with.

    Maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all and just told my co-worker to call the police. But, as it has worked before without issues, I don't know if that is too paranoid. Telling addicts to not sleep/ drink in and around the library is a fairly common situation. It is part of the job.

    BTW, I do think my co-worker actually calling the police in front of him is what made him move away from us.

    What I will suggest to my boss in the future- - two people walk to check the front door at the same time at all times from now on. Many times, only one person checks the door. Or like tonight, one person follows up a bit later.

    Ok, any thoughts on this are appreciated. I want to learn from this.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2014
  3. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works Banned

    Looks like you did fine to me. Calling the police without even interacting with him would of probably been the 100% safest option. My experience with drunk people is it depends on the individual, some people are more docile while drunk and less dangerous. Some people it's like they are on PCP. When you figure out someone is a mean drunk you kind of have to treat them like a natural disaster. You cannot reason with a tornado, you take evasive action and do your best to mitigate the damage until help arrives.
     
  4. rne02

    rne02 Valued Member

    To be fair you've have summed everything up pretty well, not much more anyone else can add, other than the obvious which is next time walk past him so he isn't between you and your car before you ask him to move on.

    I have found verbal de-escalation is probably the most difficult of self protection skills to get the hang of. Almost every situation that I have used it there has been some way of phrasing which seems to have antagonised the other party, so you are always going back to look for ways you can do it better next time. It's also the most difficult skill to practice becasue especially with drunks, they aren't thinking straight, like your training partner would be.
     
  5. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Sounds like you did a good job, and the situation was resolved without injury to any party.

    Nice one ;)

    In my work, I have to 'move on' drunks quite often, and as has been noted, they really can veer between jolly and nasty, and everywhere in between. Totally unpredictable.

    Well done :D
     
  6. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Sounds like you handled the situation very well.

    I take your point about perhaps starting off with a less challenging verbal introduction. One of the problems with drunks is that they can be very unpredictable, so it's never easy knowing how to talk to them. But very often a potentially confrontational situation can be diffused easily just by being friendly. Easier said than done when you are nervous of course, but might be worth trying next time you have a situation like this.

    Starting off with something like "Hey buddy, how ya doing?"* might get you off to a good start. (Although you can't guarentee it, of course.) You've still got the option to go for the "You can't stand here, you'll have to go elsewhere." line later on, but with luck you won't need to, or you can at least deliver it in a friendly way having broken the ice first.

    But I'd like to stress that the most important thing is that you handled the situation calmly and the outcome was completely satisfactory. Anything else is just ideas that you could try another time.





    * I've even translated it into American for you!
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2014
  7. Alienfish360

    Alienfish360 Valued Member

    The only mistake I can see is that you confronted him in a position which trapped yourself.

    Maybe in future it would be best to ensure you have an escape route before confronting?
     
  8. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Nice work.

    Would your boss put a CCTV camera at the front of the building so you could see potential problems before stepping outside?
     
  9. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    How about trying something like Johnno said about a greeting and then instead of saying he can't hang out there say something "I know it sucks but the library rules are you can't hang out here after closing. That's why they installed the CCTV. I thought you might like to know so you don't get hassled by the police. " That way you aren't challenging him but just doing him a favor by letting him know that police are keeping an eye on the area, even if they aren't.
     
  10. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works Banned

    The line from the movie "Roadhouse" about "BE NICE!" comes to mind and I will say that kind of conflict resolution can work very well.
     
  11. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Krav Maga 101 - punch the assailant in the testicles. You failed.



    On a serious note, sounds like you handled it well.
     
  12. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Various bosses have tried to get camera's inside and outside the library. All the newer librariies in our system have it. But the older ones, like mine, do not.

    The higher up's don't seem to want to pay for it. We have other issues where camera's would help. Bike theft, theft inside the library, but us old libraries get no respect from top managment.
     
  13. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Yeah, something along these lines sounds good. I will take this to my boss today and work on phrasing.

    And yeah, people don't have to know we don't actually have those camera's. I could still say we do.:D
     
  14. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    Just out of interest, what was your mindset for a possible confrontation? I've had a few situations like this and I always go the "getting ready to rip out their throat" mindset while trying to de-escalate. Most situations I've been in like this that involved acquaintances or friends you could visibly see a pack mentality forming as well (a friend standing next to me, another watching in their car would have started moving forward).

    Your description reads (to me) as purely trying to keep things civil without feeling a need to preemptively strike. I think I form a line for a person to cross (not involving them making the first move. For example I would think, "if they take one more step forward I'm going") mentally in these situation before I would go at it, I didn't really read that in what you wrote.

    I'm not advocating anything, there are many different approaches. I'm just trying to understand what you were thinking internally more.
     
  15. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    In the uk, you can buy a fairly convincing 'dummy-cam' for as little as £1.
    Having something visible up, whether functional or not, could be off-putting to opportunistic thieves..
     
  16. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    That is the interesting thing, I really was just aware and not thinking. I didn't even realize this until afterwards. In the past, in similar situations, I would be consciously thinking. "Ok, keep your distance, what is he doing, etc"

    This time I just sort of clicked into a mode. I just had an awareness. I just noticed and did things second nature. I was aware of positions of all involved. I remember thinking as he put his bottle away that while it could be a weapon, but he seemed concerned more with keeping his alcohol safe. I remember being aware that my co-worker had her hands full, so I positioned myself in front of her.

    My goal was to just calmly persuade him that it was better for him to just go drink somewhere else without it escalating. But it was more just a reaction and an awareness than thinking. It was weird and kinda cool, as I have not been like this before. In the past, it has been a conscius " Sifu said to do this in this situation."

    The closest I can say to a mindset I had was, be ready if he actually turns violent instead of posturing, but try and keep it from going that way.
     
  17. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    It looks as though you handled the whole thing really well.

    The only thing I might add to what has been said is that if there is any likelihood that it happen again you might want to give your colleagues some advice as to what you want them to do if you do get into a physical fight.
    The last thing you want from a friend is that they try to stand between you and the person you are fighting, which is quite an instinctive reaction from people who want to help and do not know better.
    I have been in this sort of situation where my back-up really could not fight and I asked that if I was fighting someone that they call for help and not to interfere unless I was getting pummelled, or I asked them to do something specific.
    In the end we always managed to talk down confrontations or stood our ground passively until the others spent their anger and backed off.

    Well done.
     
  18. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    That is good advice in general. Unfortunately, a now retired senior level supervisor already had some hare brained idea that I was eager to get into fights because she knew my MA experience. Long story, but she judged me completely incorrectly in another situation based on her misconception.

    So, I really can't have a discussion like that with my co-workers without risking it being misconstrued to my detriment.

    Good advice, but I have some serious stupidity affecting my ability to do it.

    Maybe I will type up the sorted story of that tonight.
     
  19. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    Some good points raised here.

    I agree with Simon on the point of having a camera with a live feed to the building interior - in particular a controllable dome-style camera with IR would be the best for preventing potential ambushes or robberies on staff and visitors. Regardless of whether your bosses don't want to spend the money, they have a duty of care to their staff, and if they don't want to invest in private security (very costly), a camera is a much cheaper monitoring alternative. The only catch is that it would be up to you to defend yourselves, as opposed to a security professional who could intervene in order to protect you.

    I would argue that superiority of numbers worked in your favour. One major turn-off for would-be attackers is fear of resistance/greater force. Me vs two people? Not good odds. Me vs three with the police on the way? Not unless it's my only option, or i'm high as a kite. As you've suggested, moving in groups of two or more is an effective target-hardening measure, and should become standard operating procedure for patrols around the building exterior, or leaving the building at night.

    Overall, the situation was well handled. From a conflict management perspective, there are a couple of tactics you might want to consider to make your life easier when dealing with vagrants or other adversaries in the future:-

    Familiarity - establish common ground, sync verbal and physical behaviours, talk about subjects that make your target feel warm and fuzzy inside or have a laugh about (friends, family, celebrations, funny anecdotes, women!).

    Empathy - find out about your target, what's on their mind? How are they feeling? Often troubled individuals just want someone to listen, which is why they get upset when people don't listen, and instead tell them what to do.

    Good cop, bad cop - get your partner to play the jobsworth authoritarian, while you side with the target, and make them feel as though you're on their side - working in their best interests against the oppressor.

    In ALL cases you must do two things as standard:-

    1. GOLDEN BRIDGE - build your enemy a golden bridge, and he will be compelled to cross it (Sun Tzu). In other words, always provide an easy out - even to the point of disguising it as an act of benevolence on his part. EXAMPLE: "sorry i snapped at you there bud - just my kid's real sick at the moment, and my boss is on my back about ridiculous stuff like this - it just gets to me sometimes - you know what i mean right? The moron's probably watching me on camera right now, looking for a reason to sack me. You'd be doing me a massive favour if you moved over here, out of the way of the camera so it looks like i've moved you on..." - masterful combination of the three above tactics, and a golden bridge to finish ;)

    2. PROTECT YOURSELF AT ALL TIMES - i've found out the hard way just how quickly some people can switch, and how freakishly strong and resilient people on narcotics can be. What i will say is this - even when it looks like you've succeeded, you're still exposed. If the wind changes and your adversary goes for you, you will need to drop him. Some people think that playing the diplomat while building an army is deceitful. I think it's prudent. Your talk - regardless of how it's met - will buy you time to arm yourself, receive support, or manoeuvre yourself into a position of advantage. It is therefore an essential tool in your box.

    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet (Mattis).
     
  20. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Thanks for your entire post Janno. I just want to address this. Yes, a camera would be a good idea. Yes I agree with what you say above about it. Every manager I have had in the last 20 years there thinks it is a good idea, but the upper managment simply will not approve it. Regardless of what you aor I think about their responsibility to keep people safe, they don't feel they need to do this, so we don't have them.

    When I wrote the incident report for this, there is an area to make suggestions for the future. I put in there that cameras would be a good idea. But we have done that with many incident reports in the past and it hasn't happened.

    We once got someone out to give an appraisal. Once they found out the cost, they nixed it. Sadly, end of story so far. This was fiveish or so years ago.

    We have a part time security guard. But any of the guards are well, cheaply paid guards. They are paid to look imposing in a uniform. They are actually told not to get physical. While our current guard is better than many in the past, I honestly don't think she understands de-escalation based on another incident. And she left at closing. She wasn't there at the incident. (Oh my, I could tell you such stories about the horrible guards we have had in the past. Many of them entirely useless - like the very old woman who could barely walk, parked in our disabled area, and needed a chair for her shift. Yeah, like she was going to protect any of us. Or the one that actually was starting to stalk one of our employee's.)

    I work for a City governement Library system in the USA. If the government over there runs like ours, you might have an idea of beaurocratic red tape. Until the higher ups approve it, our hands are tied. I think that a boss who installed something on their own could actually get in trouble.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014

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