Sparring and Taijutsu:

I am going to point this out here once again for the sake of those who haven't read my previous posts on this subject.

The system of FMA I was taught is a system designed for bodyguards but also taught to a lot of federal agencies and LEOs and uses group pain compliance as the secondary escalation of force after verbal deescalation fails. I've witnessed firsthand how much training it takes to train someone up from no training to effectively using standing wrist/arm locks, and you can do it quite easily in 1-2 months of hard group training every weekend. I also witnessed firsthand these MA novices take this training and apply against fully combative people, typically going 2-1 on them with each novice wrist locking a separate arm on the escort out.

My security team also learned ninjutsu for the lethal spectrum of unarmed training, but the only people who regularly applied our taijutsu was my team leader and I, both of us already having several years of Takamatsuden studies. Both my TL and I applied one of the gyakus on combative people a lot, and I had already used my gyaku training in violence a few times prior to that work. We pulled it off those wrist locks 1-1 without ever being injured or injuring anyone else. My TL is a very athletically gifted individual, but I am not.

Fair enough.

I am 5'8" and pretty strong naturally, but I've put wrist locks on taller athletes before without an issue. Many of the people were drunk or high, yes, but many were sober too. I cannot speak to the survivor's bias part personally, except to state that I've witnessed other people apply the exact same ninjutsu/FMA training I received to apply wrist locks very successfully. The lying one comes up here so often it does make me chuckle. That is the downside to anonymity I suppose.

You're basing that [factually untrue] observation on what specifically?

Irrelevant. They also don't allow pain compliance techniques of any sort in those facilities here in the US. You're just expected to suffer injuries until backup arrives and everyone holds down a single limb. Those procedures are exclusively designed because of liability concerns, they are not structured around the reality of violence.

 

My opinion is if you haven't found a way to train it with resistance then you are wasting your time because you have not trained the technique in any meaningful way that allows you to use it. I have seen a number of guys who have spent years in non-sparring arts come through my MMA gym, and they are no better off that absolute newbies, the second the first flurry of punches connects with their face everything falls apart. In fact, they are generally worse off than newbies because they have terrible habits to unlearn. As for training on a wooden floor, why not use mats? Mats don't stop you from snapping limbs like twigs if you fail to do ukemi properly (I have seen it happen), mats just mean that there is a slightly larger margin for error and throws can be trained repeatedly.

 

Thats a false dicotomy. Traditionaly many people did sumai and also practised a ryu, many ryu also had randori in them, which were more context specific.

 

Best quote ever.

So which elements of unarmed ninjutsu do you consider lethal?

 

I privately gave the OP information about where he could receive quality ninjutsu training (two schools) that I believe would suit what he is searching for in the arts, but those schools are a two hour drive from where he lives. So the whole "I don't make enough to live in Japan" crap is entirely irrelevant. If fact, given the "I hope Hatsumi dies" comments I wish I hadn't bothered asking family for information about the training type he seems most interested in now. Live and learn I suppose.

People do that in violence too. Almost everyone recoils and tries to get away from the sense of pain in whatever way they can, but once you've already taken their balance and then you snap on a lock they just sort of semi-submit/flow to your will while saying things like "ow, my arm!" or "ow, you're gonna break my arm!" Ya know, because most people aren't trained grapplers or insane enough to want their arm broken.

Very, very untrue and full of speculation.

It's already been pointed out that that is because wrist locks are banned in all ground grappling systems except BJJ where you only learn them after many years of study and when you do they are considered rude.

Well lets ask Hannibal if he's ever used a standing wrist lock solo on someone who didn't magically submit to his will the second he grabbed them, shall we?

In my experience wrist locking and then handcuffing people, the point at which people comply isn't the wrist lock, it's the snapping of the handcuffs. Once the handcuffs click, the tension leaves their bodies and they stop resisting and truly give up; before that moment though most people are fighting against what you're doing to them. Maybe everyone is much more complicit with uniformed officers though.

Again, speculation. You're doing a lot of speaking for other people in this thread.

Not true. I have applied many gyakus on people trying to hurt myself or others and each time I took their balance, quickly put a gyaku on and held the wrist at it's breaking point (usually with my offhand controlling their elbow), ignored them whining about their limb, and either lead them outside to release them (with their face still down by their knees) or took them down to the ground and handcuffed them. Nobody made me break their damn wrist because most people dislike being in pain. Those people were not giving me the technique. One second they were swearing or punching someone and the next thing they knew they were off balanced, in intense pain, and they instinctively knew their bone could easily be broken. Nobody made me break their damn wrist like in this MAP fantasy where everyone is a mental ward patient or BJJ black belt.

 

Really guys? You wanna troll the one dude who actually contacted the OP to try to find him a proper school to train at? Honestly, I've been giving some serious thought to being done with MAP after the way Mattt left and if this is how we treat threads where someone is asking for legitimate ninjutsu advice, I think my time here is coming to a close also.

 

Who's trolling, so anyway what makes unarmed ninjutsu lethal to you?

 

False equivalence.

People who've never been under pressure tend not to perform well under pressure.


But you think that someone well used to being under pressure, would be just as unable to apply a technique they had not fully pressure-tested as a complete novice?

 

Please don't write me private messages, I won't be responding to them.

Mattt left because of how hostile the forums are to ninjutsu. He made his announcement public in the ninjutsu subforum. You can see his goodbye post here:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074838966&postcount=892

When statements like that are allowed to stay uncontested by mods for nearly 48 hours, by the same moderation team who themselves love to make jokes at the expense or ninjutsu in any location except our subforum, there is little purpose for me to remain behind either.

I'm not here to play your games Fusen. I was here exclusively to help the OP find the sort of school he was looking for.

 

As a rule the mods enforce the ToS. Now that may or may not involve indulging you in what you feel are unacceptable posts.

Now whilst a little culturally insensitive that post by Kframe didn't infringe on the MAP ToS.

This forum exists as part of a wider community, the fact that a good portion of that community regards it as a joke is squarely on the shoulders of some of the members here.

 

Shame. I'll say it here then: I wish you well, and I've found you to be one of MAP's better posters. All the best.

 

So am I.

 

You seen Kave's new signature?

That's very poor manners.

 

That's a fair question. The answer is complex, and depends on the technique and the amount and type of pressure someone is used to. As an example, say a advanced BJJ blue belt comes into an MMA class for the first time and at the end of the lesson he wants to get in on the sparring class (happens occasionally). Now the BJJer is used to submitting people while under pressure, but the pressure he is used to is significantly less (or at least different) than what he is about to experience. He knows the guy he is sparring has grappling experience that is limited to a little no-gi training, but does have a year of boxing experience on top of one month of MMA striking training. The BJJer rapidly gets sick of being punched in the face and manages to execute a takedown, ending up underneath the boxer but in guard. The boxer is inexperienced in punching while in guard, but he knows enough to posture up while raining down fists and elbows. The BJJer would tear this guy apart in pure grappling, but he stands no chance in this environment, he freaks out, rolls over, gives up his back, and taps to a poor RNC from a guy with a grappling skill level less than that of a one-stripe whitebelt (a move that the boxer had only ever drilled, and never executed previously in sparring).

Would the BJJer have managed to triangle/armbar/omoplata an attacker who was completely untrained? Probably. If the BJJer had trained to deal with the appropriate pressure would he have won the encounter? Probably. Why did the BJJ guy fail to apply his techniques? Because his training did not provide realistic pressure for the environment he was trying to use it in.

In answer to your question, and simplifying as much as I can, someone used to training under pressure may possibly be better placed to execute techniques they have not used in sparring, but they will have less success than they would with techniques they have actually sparred with, and probably wont bother. If they have regularly sparred they will have a range of options with proven success. So if they do have a range of options, why would they go for a completely untried technique instead. Yes, someone who has grappled extensively will be better able to execute an eye gouge than someone who hasn't. A boxers understanding of range may better equip him to throw elbows in a streetfight than someone who has never trained under pressure in a striking art. Do you think that makes elbows a smart option for a boxer in a streetfight? I would suggest a boxer would be better off working from his strengths.

 

Wow, back up..... Mattt left?!? Why?

That's a shame and our loss

 

Gambit. Thank you for trying to help me sir. Looking back, and having all night and day to think about it, posting that message was foolish. I was angry at the time. Angry that I was not happy, angry that I wanted to leave and leave people I liked training with. I lashed out irrationally and I apologize to everyone that I offended.

Someone said that, Even if what I said happened, nothing would change. Thinking about it, its true. Even if they were booted out, or the whole ORG collapsed, the poor teachers and students would still remain. Passing on bad taijutsu. Nothing Soke can do will change the poor teachers.

It took me much thinking today while at work to realize that I was wrong.

I have also found a sizeable part of why I was dissatisfied. I didn't at any point in the kata or training feel threatened or a over whelming need to actually defend my self. I just didn't feel threatened by there attacks.

I don't know if it was the dojo, or the students, or my prior training history that made me feel not threatened. However this feeling of not being threatened played a role in my dissatisfaction.

 

I wanted to throw this out there and get some feed back.

Kata and pressure testing. The kata is the primary vehicle for learning the art. Does that mean as your skill progress's that there should be a sort of scaling increase to the level of pressure applied by uke? All the way up to and including being attacked with the kata attacks at full force and speed? Counter attacking if uke see's a opening or flaw in tori's actions?

If this is truly how kata is supposed to be done, then I wish I had gotten a taste of it. Maybe if I had experienced real threat with the kata, and pressure even though scripted, maybe it would have had some effect on my feelings.

On a flip side, my sensei did point me to another Bujinkan dojo in another city not far off that did spar. I initially was excited. I was talking to the teacher and he sent me some sparring video. What I saw in the sparring video was not taijutsu, but kickboxing minus round kicks. It may have just been that one video, however I did not see any taijutsu principals in play.

He invited me to drop by and try a few class's and I may just do that, to see how it feels and how I feel about there sparring.

Maybe there Is a reason for no free sparring after all?

 

He does seem to be rather less active, he hasn't posted since mid-March.

 

Thery are his very own words though arnt they.