Does anyone actually need to learn self defence?

John Titchen · May 11, 2013

Badger Ladder said: ↑

I thought it was 276 and 279. It could be me.When responding to alot of post it can get confusing.
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In those two posts Mitch used quotation marks rather than the quotation function when copying and pasting a sentence you used in
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074750610&postcount=273

Nothing has been changed. I would be able to see if your original post had been edited by you or anyone else, and Mitch has merely quoted you word for word.

Matt F · May 11, 2013

Hannibal said: ↑

You are wrong

It has been emphasized explicitly in recent years but common law and statutory law always permitted pre-emptive strikes
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Fair enough. I have been misinformed by a SD guy I used to train with.

You are once again putting out words like "foolproof" that no one else is; your position is arguing against something no one is actually claiming...again. This seems to be a pattern of yours in this thread
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Iv used the word foolproof, true. What other words for you to say its a pattern of arguing against something people have not said?
People are disagreeing with points of mine or they would not be responding.

Saying that I do believe that not enough emphasis is put on the ability to fight before people are offering pre emtive striking as a solution to SD situations. Thats just my opinion.
Are you realy going to claim that the majority of SD guys teach poeple to fight for a few years before ever mentioning pre emptive striking? That tactic will pop up in one off seminars all over the place without the instructor assessing who can fight and who cant.. We all know that.
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John Titchen · May 11, 2013

Badger Ladder said: ↑

Why do I have to do research to disagree? Who said I disagree in principle anyway. Of course being aware,for example, is important but its not a big deal to get across where a whole industry is based on it and other 'soft skils' or you have to go to seminars and get certificates or whatever.
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I've put the sentence above in bold. Are you asking 'Who said I disagree with SD training in principle anyway? That's how it comes across. I just wanted to be sure I haven't misunderstood you.
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Matt F · May 11, 2013

jwt said: ↑

Badger Ladder said: ↑

I've put the sentence above in bold. Are you asking 'Who said I disagree with SD training in principle anyway? That's how it comes across. I just wanted to be sure I haven't misunderstood you.
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No. I am asking have I said that awarness,as an example of a soft skill,is not important? I havnt.
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John Titchen · May 11, 2013

Badger Ladder said: ↑

Hannibal said: ↑

Are you realy going to claim that the majority of SD guys teach poeple to fight for a few years before ever mentioning pre emptive striking? That tactic will pop up in one off seminars all over the place without the instructor assessing who can fight and who cant.. We all know that.
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I don't think anyone would claim that, certainly not an experienced chap like Hannibal. I teach the context for preemptive striking as part of my legal briefing in stand alone lectures. I also teach preemptive striking tactics in context in one off seminars to people who don't know how to fight. I do so because I understand the context of the strike, the moral and legal justification of the strike, and the likely consequences of both a successful and unsuccessful preemptive strike, regardless of whether the striker is a good 'fighter', against the likely consequences of not striking when a preemptive strike should have been made.

I know you believe that in order to use a preemptive strike you have to be able to fight. That would certainly increase the odds in favour of the striker if for some reason their first strike was particularly ineffective and they could not hit hard thereafter. In my experience and that of other professionals with whom I associate that ability (to fight) is not a requirement for success, rather it is the ability to hit hard and the willpower to hit hard.
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Matt F · May 11, 2013

jwt said: ↑

Badger Ladder said: ↑

I don't think anyone would claim that, certainly not an experienced chap like Hannibal. I teach the context for preemptive striking as part of my legal briefing in stand alone lectures. I also teach preemptive striking tactics in context in one off seminars to people who don't know how to fight. I do so because I understand the context of the strike, the moral and legal justification of the strike, and the likely consequences of both a successful and unsuccessful preemptive strike, regardless of whether the striker is a good 'fighter', against the likely consequences of not striking when a preemptive strike should have been made.

I know you believe that in order to use a preemptive strike you have to be able to fight. That would certainly increase the odds in favour of the striker if for some reason their first strike was particularly ineffective and they could not hit hard thereafter. In my experience and that of other professionals with whom I associate that ability (to fight) is not a requirement for success, rather it is the ability to hit hard and the willpower to hit hard.
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How do you teach to hit hard and how do you teach them the willpower to hit hard in these one off sessions? And what do you tell to do if it fails or if they were wrong and the other person was not going to attack?
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John Titchen · May 11, 2013

Badger Ladder said: ↑

jwt said: ↑

How do you teach to hit hard and how do you teach them the willpower to hit hard in these one off sessions?
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How do I teach them to hit hard?
I show them a natural movement. I hit a pad hard with that movement. They pair up and do the same. Because they aren't punching but hitting with open hands, forearms, knees and feet using movements from every day life in another context they hit hard and fast almost immediately.

How do I teach the the willpower?
Empowerment through removal of fear of the law by providing them with correct information and examples. Visualisation of a number of different consequences of inaction for them or someone else. Panning for gold about self worth. Information on the likely responses to a fight back. Information and examples of people who've fought back against the odds. Information on the biological processes involved.

Badger Ladder said: ↑

jwt said: ↑

And what do you tell to do if it fails or if they were wrong and the other person was not going to attack?
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What do I tell them to do if it fails?
Keep hitting and looking for opportunities to escape. They wouldn't be hitting unless they thought the only other option was to be hit. As what I teach has built in redundancies they will be in positions to follow through.

Or if they were wrong and the other person was not going to attack?
This is covered thoroughly in the legal briefing with an example and advice, the specific item being Section 76 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (in particular 4b).
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John Titchen · May 11, 2013

Badger Ladder said: ↑

No. I am asking have I said that awarness,as an example of a soft skill,is not important? I havnt.
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You've not used that specific phrase, but I must have misunderstood your general meaning here:

No one should need self defence instructors to tell them not to fight when it's not needed or how to not get into fights. That's common sense or just being a well balance, sound, sensible person. If a person does struggle in that area it's maybe confidence in general that needs to be sorted and that is personal responsibility not something brought from a self defence guru.
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http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074739029&postcount=88

and here:

That responce was in relation to a poster saying that you can smile etc etc and not get into fights. Which is true. But you shouldnt have to pay money to some SD guru to tell you how not get into fights. Its not that difficult.
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Also people who choose to do that job will have certain important charactoristics that are more important than certain moves or or some degree on adrenalin or awareness or whatever. They more than likely have a will to win, tenacity, confidence with violence, an ability to fight back etc.They could learn anything and still be fairly handy. These are more important than moves and tactics.
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http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074744544&postcount=92

and here:

I am just explaining why I dont think SD is realy needed. Yes, I do have an objection to people claiming what they teach will work when it wont and people making out its easy to survive violence. But Im not going to stop it and its going to happen. Im just doodling my opinions on a forum.
I said at the start, I dont stand a chance as most already buy into the SD market.

You would learn more training regular in a good gym, learning to fight somehow and cultivating the attributes I mentioned and being a sound sensible person with common sense. And it would probably be cheaper.
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http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074744597&postcount=94

and here:

The other attributes (awareness,avoidence) dont take degrees or ranks in SD to understand and apply to whatever physicaly ability you have. Some people might need certain things pointed out to them, but its not a big deal to do. It doesnt take a degree in SD.
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http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074745206&postcount=103

and here:

It's all one big excuse to not learn to fight.
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http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074745919&postcount=134

and here:

I have already said its personal responsibility to not get into situations,or if you do unwillingy, to be able to fight back. So this reply is overcomplicated gobbledygoop to me.
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http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074746178&postcount=147

and here:

Not getting into a fight while in a social situation with someone who is being abusive to you or wants a fight is just good social skills and confidence. And can it even be called real S D.
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http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074750531&postcount=225

and here:

People who are clueless need the truth about violence and should not be given quick fixes. They need the confidence to take responsibility for themselves and maybe genuine positive psychology, not S D instructors or martial arts.
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http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074750588&postcount=262

and here:

As my view in the whole thread has been that people should learn to fight to the highest level they can and that I don't believe In S D
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http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074750635&postcount=283

and here:

These people should not have to pay for that knowledge, they should be directed to free resources or should be pointed in the right direction to be confident, sound, sensible people or towards genuine positive psychology. It's not as big a deal to get on the right track where you have to go on courses or get certified or whatever. Spend money on learning to fight under reputable instruction.
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http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074750659&postcount=295

and here:

As I don't buy into S D, the knowledge being passed of is not worth being paid for, therefore it should be free.
I don't say it's all useless I say it's not as big a deal that's worth a whole industry built on it.
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http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074750666&postcount=298

and here:

You dont learn to fight in coventional SD classes and the soft skills are not worth the money or certifictates and courses you have to go on , its not such a big deal to build a whole industry on, IMO. Alot is common sense if you first become a sound, sensible, confident person.
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http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074751301&postcount=321

My impression from your posts is that you believe the only thing you need is to train to fight with someone who has a proven fighting record and from that you'll develop all the skills you need to avoid trouble or fight your way out of it if required and that's all SD is about.

Matt F · May 11, 2013

jwt said: ↑

Badger Ladder said: ↑

How do I teach them to hit hard?
I show them a natural movement. I hit a pad hard with that movement. They pair up and do the same. Because they aren't punching but hitting with open hands, forearms, knees and feet using movements from every day life in another context they hit hard and fast almost immediately.
Click to expand...

A natural movement from everyday life in another context?
Does this differ or resemble how a fighter from for example,boxing or Muay thai would hit or not?

How do I teach the the willpower?
Empowerment through removal of fear of the law by providing them with correct information and examples. Visualisation of a number of different consequences of inaction for them or someone else. Panning for gold about self worth. Information on the likely responses to a fight back. Information and examples of people who've fought back against the odds. Information on the biological processes involved.
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I cant comment postivley so I better say nothing on that.

Badger Ladder said: ↑

What do I tell them to do if it fails?
Keep hitting and looking for opportunities to escape. They wouldn't be hitting unless they thought the only other option was to be hit. As what I teach has built in redundancies they will be in positions to follow through.
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Do you tell them it would be better to be able to fight first before using pre-emtive striking?
What if the other person can fight and is now kicking their head in, do you adress that ?
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Simon · May 11, 2013

Badger Ladder said: ↑

A natural movement from everyday life in another context?
Does this differ or resemble how a fighter from for example,boxing or Muay thai would hit or not?
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As a basic example there are elbow deflections and strikes that replicate a similar movement to combing the hair.

These movements are a lot more natural and require very little maintenance when compared to trying to learn a punch or kick.

Kicks especially require a lot of practice and maintenance.
This is why jwt (among others) recommend strikes and deflections that resemble natural movements.

Simon · May 11, 2013

Badger Ladder said: ↑

What if the other person can fight and is now kicking their head in, do you adress that ?
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As someone who has trained with jwt and had his mouth split open while wearing a very expensive helmet specially designed for RBSD and having been visibly shaken to the core during that attack, I can say categorically that the answer is yes he does.

Matt F · May 11, 2013

jwt said: ↑

You've not used that specific phrase, but I must have misunderstood your general meaning here:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074739029&postcount=88

and here:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074744544&postcount=92

and here:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074744597&postcount=94

and here:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074745206&postcount=103

and here:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074745919&postcount=134

and here:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074746178&postcount=147

and here:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074750531&postcount=225

and here:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074750588&postcount=262

and here:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074750635&postcount=283

and here:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074750659&postcount=295

and here:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074750666&postcount=298

and here:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074751301&postcount=321
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Yes, you have not fully understood my general meaning.
All those points need to be put into context of what I was replying to get full representation.

My impression from your posts is that you believe the only thing you need is to train to fight with someone who has a proven fighting record and from that you'll develop all the skills you need to avoid trouble or fight your way out of it if required and that's all SD is about.
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I have clearly seperated physical skills from non physical skills and what you have said above is in relation to the physical side. Your impression is not correct with my belief
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Simon · May 11, 2013

Badger Ladder, I'm losing track here in regard to exactly what is and isn't being claimed.

Not your fault, it's just that we seem to be going to and fro here and getting in a mess.

Could you post in regard to what your beliefs are, especially since we have had several pages of explanation on both sides.

It would be nice to see exactly what your viewpoint is now you've had a chance to digest the views of jwt, Mitch and I.

John Titchen · May 11, 2013

Badger Ladder said: ↑

jwt said: ↑

Badger Ladder said: ↑

A natural movement from everyday life in another context?
Does this differ or resemble how a fighter from for example,boxing or Muay thai would hit or not?
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A natural movement from everyday life in another context?
Yes.

Does this differ or resemble how a fighter from for example,boxing or Muay thai would hit or not?
In most instances yes due to differing impact surfaces and a few other factors, in other instances no. If you want details watch some of my youtube videos of my guys (as opposed to guests) in Sim Days.

Badger Ladder said: ↑

Do you tell them it would be better to be able to fight first before using pre-emtive striking?
What if the other person can fight and is now kicking their head in, do you adress that ?
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Do you tell them it would be better to be able to fight first before using pre-emtive striking?
No, because I don't believe that to be true. My primary concern is training people to avoid, deter, negate and escape aggression and violence. Actual fighting is a minor part of that (though my actual fighting methods and training paradigm has won international praise from full contact fighters, traditional MAists, Police trainers, Bouncers and SD instructors). At the end of my courses, if they are local I tell people where I am, if I'm not teaching in my locality I recommend them looking into contact sports if they have an interest in taking their physical skills further. I've already provided the most important stuff which is the soft skills. The majority of the people I train only get soft skill training.

What if the other person can fight and is now kicking their head in, do you adress that ?
Yes. You only preempt if you think that if you don't the other person is going to hit you (or someone else) first and the attack is going to be serious. So to preempt or not is a stark choice between being in a fight with the other person hitting you first and potentially seriously injuring you, knocking you out, killing you, or putting you in a position where it is harder to defend yourself, or you hitting them first with the same effect for them. Your survival chances are higher with the latter regardless of the other person's ability.
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Matt F · May 11, 2013

Simon said: ↑

As a basic example there are elbow deflections and strikes that replicate a similar movement to combing the hair.

These movements are a lot more natural and require very little maintenance when compared to trying to learn a punch or kick.

Kicks especially require a lot of practice and maintenance.
This is why jwt (among others) recommend strikes and deflections that resemble natural movements.
Click to expand...

Is it claimed this way of hitting or moving is special in any way and you dont learn it in fighting arts?

I can agree with that example of combing the hair for a starting point but what about the maintenace of timing, anticipation, of using it in combination, of speed and power, of intent etc etc. That all requires maintenance. Are you saying that because a person can comb their hair they can then elbow stike and thats all thats required?

I know I am being picky but my point is that on a physical level I am saying learn to fight with reputable fighters,full contact, and i dont feel you guys are agreeing on that point..so your physical side of SD cant be learning to fight or you are contradicting yourselves and if its not learning to fight its probably the usual SD stuff thats too compliant to be used in seriouse chaotic violence.

Matt F · May 11, 2013

jwt said: ↑

Badger Ladder said: ↑

jwt said: ↑

A natural movement from everyday life in another context?
Yes.
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A bit vague I was hoping for more

[

I]Does this differ or resemble how a fighter from for example,boxing or Muay thai would hit or not? [/I]
In most instances yes due to differing impact surfaces and a few other factors, in other instances no. If you want details watch some of my youtube videos of my guys (as opposed to guests) in Sim Days.
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I watched and it just shows the application, not the training of the strikes.

I cant knock that it gets the chaos replicated well but the striking is not to a great standard in my opinion. I feel and cannot see a problem with suggesting that if any of those guys learnt to fight, full contact they would fair alot better.

Also it shows people hitting first and not always coming out on top.

Do you tell them it would be better to be able to fight first before using pre-emtive striking?
No, because I don't believe that to be true. My primary concern is training people to avoid, deter, negate and escape aggression and violence. Actual fighting is a minor part of that (though my actual fighting methods and training paradigm has won international praise from full contact fighters, traditional MAists, Police trainers, Bouncers and SD instructors). At the end of my courses, if they are local I tell people where I am, if I'm not teaching in my locality I recommend them looking into contact sports if they have an interest in taking their physical skills further. I've already provided the most important stuff which is the soft skills. The majority of the people I train only get soft skill training.
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So your one SD instructor who doesnt make it clear that pre emtive striking is better if you can fight first. Somone posted saying he know of non that do...so there one for you and I suspect theres more

What if the other person can fight and is now kicking their head in, do you adress that ?
Yes. You only preempt if you think that if you don't the other person is going to hit you (or someone else) first and the attack is going to be serious. So to preempt or not is a stark choice between being in a fight with the other person hitting you first and potentially seriously injuring you, knocking you out, killing you, or putting you in a position where it is harder to defend yourself, or you hitting them first with the same effect for them. Your survival chances are higher with the latter regardless of the other person's ability.
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Thats still not adressing if it fails. Your basicaly saying no one will fail they will get it right everytime. Could I not say then you are veiwing it as foolproof? What if I hit someone, they dont go down and they start kicking my head in as i cant fight?
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Matt F · May 11, 2013

Simon said: ↑

Badger Ladder, I'm losing track here in regard to exactly what is and isn't being claimed.

Not your fault, it's just that we seem to be going to and fro here and getting in a mess.

Could you post in regard to what your beliefs are, especially since we have had several pages of explanation on both sides.

It would be nice to see exactly what your viewpoint is now you've had a chance to digest the views of jwt, Mitch and I.
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I feel iv said my beliefs often enough, its just going in circles. Its the same as it was in the begining.

John Titchen · May 11, 2013

Replies in blue.

Badger Ladder said: ↑

jwt said: ↑

I watched and it just shows the application, not the training of the strikes.

I cant knock that it gets the chaos replicated well but the striking is not to a great standard in my opinion. I feel and cannot see a problem with suggesting that if any of those guys learnt to fight, full contact they would fair alot better.

Which video are you referring to specifically, and which person? (web link and time reference) Not all participants are my students or even trained by me, some don't do full contact martial arts styles. Furthermore you are looking at people striking under the pressure of a reality scenario with all the non competitive fight baggage that brings. Since videos earlier in this thread established that professional fighters don't strike to a great standard in unplanned out of ring fights I don't see that as a great argument.

Also it shows people hitting first and not always coming out on top.

Again, web link and video reference time so I can see if they were preemptive strikes or the actual role playing attackers attempting sucker hits, and whether they were people I've trained mucking up or people I haven't trained mucking up. Further to that I need to add in the fact that most of the people preempting are pulling their strikes so as not to KO the role player. I have seen people fail in preemptive strikes through not hitting hard enough, but usually it is because it's either
a. Something they've not trained in.
b. They are pulling their strikes because they are unfamiliar with the gear.
c. They are pulling their strikes because they don't want to hurt the role player.

So your one SD instructor who doesnt make it clear that pre emtive striking is better if you can fight first. Somone posted saying he know of non that do...so there one for you and I suspect theres more

Agreed. I don't make it clear because I don't believe it to be true. Preemptive striking is a safety tactic that is the option when you are certain that the other person is about to hit you and not hitting will definitely result in your being hit. In such circumstances whether you can 'fight' as you seem to mean it is irrelevant, whether you could escape without a beating isn't. In an ideal world I'd get people to fight as well, but it's not the priority - the soft skills are the priority.

Thats still not adressing if it fails. Your basicaly saying no one will fail they will get it right everytime. Could I not say then you are veiwing it as foolproof? What if I hit someone, they dont go down and they start kicking my head in as i cant fight?

You are not paying attention. That's not what I'm saying and you seem unable to grasp the stark reality of the choice faced. It is the simple matter of me letting you punch me in the face first, a choice which will definitely see me injured and possibly killed, or me hitting you hard in the face in the hope that either
1. It dissuades you from fighting further.
2. It knocks you down.
3. It buys me enough opportunity to run.
4. It buys me the opportunity to hit you again with outcomes 1, 2 or 3.
If the preemptive strike fails to knock the other person down, and the striker cannot capitalise on the reaction gap gained with either 3 or 4, then they may get their head kicked in - but this is the same outcome as not preemptive striking. When there is an opportunity, given the choice between not preemptively striking when necessary and preemptively striking when necessary, making the strike is the safest call. I'm not going to trawl through my library for you but most people commiting sexual attacks or robberies desist at the slightest physical counter-attack and the ones that don't are the ones that would have beaten their victims even if they hadn't resisted.
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John Titchen · May 11, 2013

Badger Ladder said: ↑

Yes, you have not fully understood my general meaning.
All those points need to be put into context of what I was replying to get full representation.

I have clearly seperated physical skills from non physical skills and what you have said above is in relation to the physical side. Your impression is not correct with my belief
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Which is why I've put links to the posts with each one. I think your meaning is perfectly clear. You've been invited to make a definitive statement by Simon to clarify matters and so far you've declined.
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John Titchen · May 11, 2013

Answers in blue

Badger Ladder said: ↑

Is it claimed this way of hitting or moving is special in any way and you dont learn it in fighting arts?

Some of the things I do I've seen in other fighting arts, others I haven't. As a result I don't make any claim that everything I am teaching is unique.

I can agree with that example of combing the hair for a starting point but what about the maintenace of timing, anticipation, of using it in combination, of speed and power, of intent etc etc.

What about them? This is SD not a competitive fight. There's no probing or tit for tat most of the time. It's AAAAAA or ABBBBB. Where physical training is delivered the emphasis is on low maintenance skills.

That all requires maintenance. Are you saying that because a person can comb their hair they can then elbow stike and thats all thats required?

In my experience, drawing the comparison and hitting a pad a few times, yes.

I know I am being picky but my point is that on a physical level I am saying learn to fight with reputable fighters,full contact, and i dont feel you guys are agreeing on that point..

It is something I recommend to clients if they aren't near any good SD schools I know. So while it is something I rate highly, I don't rate it so highly for the purposes of SD.

so your physical side of SD cant be learning to fight or you are contradicting yourselves and if its not learning to fight its probably the usual SD stuff thats too compliant to be used in seriouse chaotic violence.

You and I have differing opinions as to what physically needs to be learned and how quickly it can be learned, but I suspect that is because you are thinking of the organised paradigm of competition violence whereas i am considering the disorganised chaotic paradigm of criminal violence. The point I think we agree upon is that where possible the physical training should involve contact and the more of it the better.
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