Does anyone actually need to learn self defence?

No, I do understand that logic. Strikes are the primary first defense in most.. or maybe even all arts, so yes, the lock are secondary. However, most of us on the street will not meet a pro boxer and anyone who is trained in boxing or any form of MA, will do what they have been taught to do and that is run.

You also had said as well that even pro boxers in the heat of the moment are not concentrating on form or technique... most of the time they are angry... perhaps scared (but not likely if they've been in with guys who have also been trained how they have) and are only worried about hitting their opponent. I agree that simplicity is one of the absolute lessons one can learn when it comes to self defense. It's not like you are in a ring where there are rules. I learn CH because the option besides completely destroying someone and getting charged with murder, manslaughter, etc before it all gets sorted it, is getting them in a very uncomfortable situation. If you have won the striking battle, or there isn't one and you can manage a joint lock or any type of submission type of move then you can end the fight without further violence except perhaps a hyperextended arm, or perhaps broken wrist... but they're alive lol.

I actually believe that (and I don't even take it) Muay Thai would maybe be most of the most effective types of MA when it comes to street combat for the simple reason that you're using "8 limbs", but it might just be simple enough to remember when you find yourself in a situation you can't get out of.

I wonder sometimes actually if learning to much hurts more than helps.
Actually, to add to this, even Bruce Lee himself (and we all know this) believed the same which is why he said he "doesn't fear the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks 1 time, but the man who has practiced 1 kick 10,000 times). I don't think a wide array of kicks are necessary to learn when it comes strictly to SD. Look at MMA as you said... what are the most typical things used in MMA? You don't see the complex stuff very often.

 

I don't need to argue... i've been into boxing for a very long time, both just for fitness and working with some people who knew more than me about it to learn more. I know how effective it can be and is. I am pointing out that a boxer who happens to be put to the ground by someone who simply rushes or sucker punches him will likely have little knowledge to know what to do next.

 

I have to add to this that if self defense wasn't important then our military wouldn't teach it's mix of MA and other proven techniques to soldiers when it came to a hand to hand confrontation. Of course they have the luxury of getting it drilled into their heads on a daily basis and that's their job.

Look at Krav Maga... by many peoples opinions it's one of the most, if not THE most deadly MA to learn. It's good enough for the Israeli miitary, and they have had to do nothing but fight during pretty much all of their existence as a state in 1948.

I read an article that I found interesting which was to look at the countries that have had to fight the most throughout history on a regular basis, especially poor ones who cannot rely on modern technology and many times the arts that come from them are many times the most effective (the writers words, not mine), but I can see where that might hold some truth.

 

Going back a few years, well actually quite a few years, but hand to hand was not that high on our training schedule.

As a Marine the most important was shooting you with a rifle. Next came poking you with a bayonet attached to the end of the rifle. After that was sticking you with a knife.

H2H just wasn't a priority.

 

I think one of the reasons the IDF uses Krav is they have a compulsory military service. So they get all type of people they have to train. Krav is designed to work for people that aren't the most fit, the techniques are simple, etc. I have no idea how much Krav the IDF people actually have to learn, but I think it is pretty secondary to other stuff.

It's not so much that it is the most deadly. It is the most stripped down, IMHO.

 

The start or how fast has nothing to do with my point. In an emergency situation you move in ways that are fundamental as certain parts of the brain and body shut down and others come to the fore. These movements are not fancy or complicated and are enhanced only in safer competative situations thats the closest thing, physicaly,to these emergencys,in other words sport.You cannot escape that truth.
If you want to climb, you climb..if you want to run you run...if you want to fight back and fight. You dont pretend.

I have already said its personal responsibility to not get into situations,or if you do unwillingy, to be able to fight back. So this reply is overcomplicated gobbledygoop to me.

Which people that do? Let me guess all SD instructors trying to sell something. I look outside of that world to understand and alot of what they say is not actualy accepted research or evidence or its phrased in such a way so as to favour them.
Inform me why I dont understand. Explain the different between throwing a punch fundamenatly and anatomicaly and physiologicaly all the way down to muscle ,bone, muscle spindles, transferance from frontal lobe to the muscle etc etc in a competative enviroment and then in an emergency and tell me how its different and how you would have us move thats different. I am not talking about tactics or enviroment or anything like that, just movement.
Or how will the runner run on a anatomy and physiological level differently if he is in an emergency than if he is in a competative race.

Too right I have gone that far. On a physical level the non fighter stands less of a chance. Its pretty blooming obviouse. And you were talking about boxers fighing at a weigh in. That is what that response is for.

 

Simplicity! That seems the way to go the more I read and even by Bruce Lee's own admission. I think that any martial art is/can be effective, but as covered many times by people on here already it's a matter of calmness, accepting the situation and then acting based on the threat in hopes that the calmness will help you to remember your training.

 

I don't know about all of the stuff you commented on. I will say this... if one is a runner, he/she has the muscle memory to run, and run fast, or a long distance... depending on their particular style of it. However, a runner has those muscles that help them that they have developed over their years of doing what is normal to them. They are going to have a better chance ... period. In a panic situation, so they don't use the exact same form.. so what? They can still haul it when they need to.

A guy who punches for hours a day has developed all of the type I and II type fibers involved in that punch... a punch from him is going to hurt more than a punch from me at an equal weight. Of course speed and adrenaline also come into play. Guess what? A scared boxer has that adrenal response just like the rest of us do, and while he might have learned to control it over time better than us, it doesn't mean that he doesn't have it. He still wins because his training PLUS getting a boost from that is going to hurt even more.

I think the idea that one has trained for years is really no better off is quite a stupid theory. Would I remember all of my joint locks in a pressure situation? I highly doubt it. Would I remember at least a few and enough of the strikes that I have practiced for years and years if I had to use them? Much more likely IMO of course.

 

@ Badger Ladder

You are still building straw men, ignoring the reasons most people feel they need or do need SD training rather than just combative sport/standard martial arts training, and arguing from a position of ignorance when it comes to HAOV and how they differ from the dynamics of attacks and behaviour in competitive fighting.

I'm not going to waste time discussing this further with you and I will treat you as a troll if you continue unless other moderators think you are posting genuinely and making a positive contribution to the thread.

Your opinions with regard to the need of some people for SD training remind me of this image.

 

I have simply asked you to inform me. Thats trolling?
I dont think so.
You have responded to my view and me to your responses.People can train in what they like.

 

No, just because it is a martial art doesn't mean it is good or effective. To be honest there are some martial arts and schools out there that are pretty bad.

 

Theres not enough punching to claim their is a deteriation in skill on a fundamental level of punching. More a deteriation on range and striking at those ranges.
And if thats skilled boxers it shows how hard it might be for unskilled people in the chaos and the need to train all ranges.

 

I would just like to reply to this bit by saying its not about remembering moves or tactics or whatever as in an emergency you dont remember or think in the same way. The only things that function are basic human movements which have to be enhanced somehow in the closest way to that emergency.Which for fighting back, is actualy fighting in some way.

 

yes, that I do agree with that. I try to read as many reviews as I can before thinking about doing anything else. I'd like to add something to what i'm doing now... just a matter of trying to figure out which style might be best and more importantly... who the best teacher for that might be.

 

I'm 34, I don't have a choice but to do SD training... i'm to old to get into rings and combat sports in general lol.

 

Why?

I was 52 when I started doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I did it for 5 years before my knees and back couldn't take it any more. I didn't compete, I just trained.

 

No, you're never to old IMO. I'm doing the combat hapkido, but I would like a hard striking art to compliment that. Combat hapkido is a self defense MA. It's not pretty and does away with many of the traditional hapkido techniques. CH is all about self defense, getting in close, palm strikes, standard hooks, uppercuts, elbow strikes, eye gouging, throat strikes, no kicks above the waist, etc. It's a lot more than just standard joint locks. I'm not far enough into it yet to really say that I would feel comfortable using everything i've learned, but there are some things that I could definitely say that I could do.