tai chi controlling chi energy

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by snewchybewchy, Apr 15, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Some things may be indiscernible to the eye,but it's certainly there as a physical action.

    That's true,they're playing Cheng's game. Howe'er-

    When Lou K. took Stanley to meet Cheng all Stanley did was put his hands on Cheng's arm and he knew Cheng owned him. Twice.In that meeting they weren't playing anything more than being in position w/Cheng in p'eng position and Stanley simply placing his hands on that arm. So possibly it wouldn't have mattered if they had been doing randori,if a guy can control you at a touch,including your touching him,you'll likely lose.Unless you get lucky,which can happen. At Cheng's age in relation to Stanley's... I think he'd have to end it real quick. Something he was known for,tho'.

    Hmmm,Cheng vs. Kyuzo Mifune. We'd all pay to see that one! Heck,THEY'D probably pay!

    Ta da! Thanks,Fish.

    Oh yeah,you do realize you've just blown the secret on all systems' fa jin and I'll have to report this to The Board. Sorry,bro.

    Not a bad article,I kept it,but breathing and intent,mostly.Seems to say mechanics aren't about "internal" power.I'd have to disagree.Don't think it will help non practitioners of these systems understand much.

    I see he's a student of Ben Lo. The lines from Ben's teacher Cheng,which actively pursue applicative ability,fightin' stuff that is,seem to pass the additional mechanics on early,at least in SE Asia.

    I don't know who this guy Chen,Man Cheng was. Oh, you mean Cheng,Man-ch'ing! There's always a "g" on the end of his family name,no matter what method one uses to spell it.

    Anyone here besides me think Hannibal spends a lot of time playing his Wang?:D

    Ok,as Fish noted,all movement is muscular in nature. Even if one just collapses and falls he still has executed the action of releasing the muscular tension however minimal it may have been, required to stand up.

    Please to remember I don't care for the term "internal",and mechanics is mechanics.

    The only truly measurable thing which can define a practice as "internal" in regards to the physical function of CMAs are the additional mechanics fostered through the nei gungs. We can't measure a person's intent or the level of their kinesthetic perception,only what the result of their attention and control can foster regarding what they can do physically.We can't measure a person's tactile sense either,except in relation to ourselves when we touch them.

    It's these mechanics which give particular systems (some require them for any meaningful level of expertise,others only at higher levels) their physical flavor and methods of execution,be it TC,SPM,Fujian White crane,etc.

    Some systems,such as TC are dependent on these for a level of expression beyond the basic. Regardless of one's ability to kick tail if these aren't developed -(consciously or unconsciously ***see below)- and used -(they will vary somewhat from system to system,or even teacher to teacher)- one's TC ability is always going to be in the lower tier. This means even if you can rocket people through the air consistently or make someone vomit from short power application one is still just executing basic TC skills.Not that those basic skills are pleasant when you're at the other end of them.

    Of course just being able to do such mechanics won't magically make you even mid level.These types of things used to be part of the basics.TC training seems to have been quite different in the 1800s pre popularization.

    For some examples of these mechanics look into writings by Wm. Chen, B.K. Frantzis, and... Mantak Chia.Really.There's a Chen master I'd really,really like to recommend but I can't recall his whole name.gah!

    Guttman's book is from the teachings he got from Kuo,Lin-ying, it's mostly incomprehensible if one doesn't understand this stuff.He gives very plain instructions of what body methods to utilize in individual applications but if one doesn't know what he means as regards the terms (and the how to ) for the physical actions he describes it easily reads as an ambiguous work open to lots of interpretations. Like some of the " TC Classics".

    My quoting of the Panda didn't happen,but I'd like to address the comment-

    "This is going to sound weird, but cloths can block a lot of what we can see. I'd bet dollars to donuts that if all those internal masters practiced in the nude, the movements would definitely appear on the outside. Not that that is something I'd like to put into practice. "

    What,you never heard of the book,"T'ai Chi Nude"? (I'm not kidding! Not a good book,tho'.)

    Anyway,Panda's right partially.A lot of what goes on would be seen,although some can be so small/quick you might need to have film you could slow up and enlarge to see it. Something as blatant as rising the torso up using the inguinal fold as a hinge can be easily observed if you're looking for it and the move's large enough to see easily,another example might be expanding some of the muscles of the back. Contracting one's spine,an example jer gave earlier,maybe not. Tho' one of my teachers could see thing like that other people were doing (or not) that I couldn't discern. Or maybe he could just tell by their overall movement.This included people at a higher level than he,but he was a fairly high level guy himself.

    *** Now for some weirdness. A well known teacher did a lot of these things,but as far as is known was never taught them.His body evidently "picked them up" from all the hours of hands on training w/his teacher. One of his former students told me that this instructor did the stuff,but wasn't really conscious that he did them. While you can and do pick up things from contact with one's teachers if you have a lot of that contact this guy's bod had picked up a real,real lot of those things.An exceptional case.

    I don't mention things like that to TC laymen 'cause it's too easy for it to be used in support of the belief that many have that you "just do the form and ph and everything will be revealed." Not everything,not by a long shot. With some individual exceptions as noted. But he couldn't actually teach these things to his students,they would have to pick it up the same way he did,to whatever extent that was possible.

    If you're wondering,I don't wish to name the individual as his lineal descendants might feel I was disparaging him/his teachings which I'm certainly not. Just thought y'all might find it interesting.And odd.

    OK, I should go pass out for awhile. Now I can't remember if it was a cold or flu that Cheng said you should just go to bed for three days...with a bottle of Scotch! I keep looking at my bottle of barely touched MacAllan.

    Naw, I'll just sniff the cork.Cost me deep in the purse,it did.
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I try not to, but it is always fun and everyone else seems to enjoy watching
     
  3. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    El Medico wrote
    Expanding the lumbar region of the back is the method used by my teacher.Its almost impossible to see what he is doing.I can do it myself but I am nowhere near his level.Its a very subtle movement done with intention and takes a lot of practice to get right.This backward movement of the lumbar region causes a reaction in the opposite direction at the hands.
     
  4. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    @el medico: i do krotty, bro, the board should be afraid of me :p

    epic post, man. remind me to save up and go train some TC with you someday :D
     
  5. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    WOO WOO ANSWER:

    Don't worry about "controlling" ch'i. It will balance itself naturally during the form. Be AWARE of ch'i. Flow with it, if you try and control it you will get qigong sickness.
     
  6. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    You know what Lou? I can't be bothered.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2012
  7. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    You are the zen master.
     
  8. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    How can you be a male nurse and spout this nonsense? Please tell me what Hospital you work at or will work at in the future.
     
  9. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    The term was coined by the 18th century Zen monk,Hakuin.His zazen practice had led to him suffering a variety of symptoms that he was unable to cure so he went to a Taoist monk who taught him to lead chi out of his head and back to the hara.I,and thousands of others,who have practiced zazen and other meditation methods have suffered from this condition.I wish it was just wishful thinking as it is highly unpleasant and can leave you feeling really ill.I detailed the symptoms I had suffered from on another thread and pointed out that no doctor or hospital could diagnose them.If you stop trying to guide the chi things will eventually return to normal but it takes a long time.
     
  10. embra

    embra Valued Member

    I thought it was Neigung that brought this on Putrid, not zazen? - or both?

    Your point about not guiding 'chi' would probably correlate to my experiences of zazen many years ago i.e. get your posture, mind and breathing to regulate and calm down; and then just maybe some beneficial objective observations of one's distributed energy condition may become apparrent; to which one might label the term 'chi', whether through lack of a better term, or an explicit desire (but maybe subconscious) to experience 'chi flow'.
     
  11. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    Its mainly brought on by pressure in the hara or lower abdomen.Some types of zazen use a method that puts a descending pressure on the hara and this forces *something*,or what people refer to as chi,into the head.

    The type of nei kung your school uses will cause these types of conditions if practiced too much or incorrectly.There is one exercise in the set that can dramatically increase the blood pressure if its practiced with too much force or too often.
     
  12. embra

    embra Valued Member

    WRT Neigung, its very unlikely that I will overdo this, as on average I spend 5-10 minutes per day on this. Incorrectly is possible, but I ask a lot of questions from my teachers about this and fairly regularly quiz them about exactly what we are doing, the manner of doing, various aspects of spinal alignment and coordination and respiratory function; to the point of checking bit not being obsessed with it.

    WRT zazen, in my Aikido epoch, I did practise this but never regularly as it always absorbed too much time. I did get badly injured (dislocated right hip-joint) but this was down to thrashing around like a lunatic e.g. not releasing tori and taking down with me when thrown repeatedly etc i.e. constant blending under pressure eventually led to spinal whiplash, but all ok now - I calmed down - but some folk think Im still crazy - they did not know me 25 years ago.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2012
  13. embra

    embra Valued Member

    This raises an interesting point; namely how can we be objective about TCC in any aspect, given that a lot of it is not explicitly obvious and takes time, experience, a degree of perseverence and perspective; and practise to understand what is afoot? Furthermore, the whole 'inside the door' aspect just adds to the mystical fud factor and sifu idolatory aspect IMHO, and as such is not helpfull i.e. it encourages a mystical/cult aspect to some degree.
     
  14. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    Brain dead!

    If you don't kick football, don't whine about the player on the field.
     
  15. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    For the benefit of the experts on this site, I'll lay it out! Nei gung is good, but don't spend too much time in meditation or you'll find nothing but misery. Karma (mind latencies) take a LOT of work, time and effort to clean up before they don't make trouble for you. When doing "self talk", NEVER refer to yourself as "you", make an effort to change your habit to always refer to yourself as "I". Don't ask why.
    Also, you can do about 1 hour of nei gung safely, as long as you don't practice incorrectly. Zhuan Zhang standing is my favorite, and 8 brocades. There has to be balance, or your tai chi sucks. When you get qigong sickness, it's because your balance is off, and means your tai chi is wrong. Find the problems. Following this advice will cure a lot of qigong sickness. Also, vigorous exercise and sex help. I'm not being coy, the sex organ is a safetly valve for excess "energy". If you get the hot top of head headache mid afternoon, drink water, refer to yourself as "I" and never "you" (during self talk), and be a straight up hall monitor about what energies "pull you along". Get the energy out of your head, too. It helps to wear a hat, and don't ask me why. Just do it if you get qigong sickness.

    It helps to have a sense of humor about all this.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2012
  16. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    I'm glad we have all decided we know exactly what lays for us on the dark side of the hill.
     
  17. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Qigong sickness.

    Cobblers. What an absloute load of rubbish.

    I'm sure if you are barking mad, then internalising may be problematic. other than that, well, show me some research.
     
  18. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    Lets start with a very basic principle which is relaxation.How does the student know he is in the same state of relaxation as his teacher? Is there a way of objectively testing it? One method developed by Yiquan teacher,Han Jingyu,was to use a simple exercise that gave a repeatable feeling of what relaxation felt like.He also developed tests that the teacher could do on the student to objectively test the state.Whilst these were not perfect they were better than simply telling the student to relax and hoping for the best.I am sure other tests could be developed by creative teachers who can think outside of the box.

    I detest the inside the door system despite my teacher being an inside the door "disciple".He dosen't use this system and is prepared to be open with everyone who comes to train with him.The only time he will hold something back is if he feels knowing it might be detrimental to progress.Progress is in a methodical order and if students learn advanced methods too quickly they are liable to rush ahead and forget about the basics.
     
  19. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    I am not sure if any research has been carried out but this article is quite interesting.The author has pretty sound credentials.These symptoms are usually called kundalini syndrome or psychosis.Kundalini is a Sanskrit word that means "serpent power".

    http://kundalini.se/qigong-disease-sv.html
     
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Articles are like opinions which are like a.....well you know how the saying goes

    Peer reviewed and researched evidence or this is just yet another flight of whimsy with no substance at all.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page