Is it right to deceive people? or charge people for false information?

Reality Please posted

Not far off.

I am a member of the Basttlefield Trust and one of two custodians of the Northampton Battlefield at Delapre for the War of the Roses. The other custodian is Mike Ingram. Together we have reassesed the battlefield one of the jobs I carried out was the SMR (sites and monument record) looking for the archaeology of the site. The actual dig may come soon, but digging battlefields is a hit and miss affair and very difficult to do.

Mike will be bringing out the book on Northampton Battlefield shortly I believe through Osprey books.

http://www.militaryhistory.org.uk/Index.html

nd in regard to texts we had to read texts from as far back as just a few years after 1460.

Actually more clearer from wht you wrote. But actually this is a method of putting down the person you are argueing by stating that his mind set is scewed. This is a typical strategy from you.

What has this got to do with the discussion?

Are you saying that if you don't live in Japan and speak the language you cant possibly know if Ninjutsu is an art of self defence?

No actually you don't know that.

Not only are you presumming, but your using as a way to say 2i will never understand the argument. Saying that I have judeo christain filters is no better than me stating that you are blind because of the loyalty to your art.

How do you know?

so why are you on this forum every day?

Actually i spent only three years with Hayes, longer with Tanemura, but are you saying that reading Hatsumis books are bad and shouldn't be trusted?

You don't know what I know about ninjutsu, so lets stop the put downs and cheap shots.

Like what?

47

Ok this is where I get slightly annoyed.

RP I dont know my father. He was a soldier in the British army and left when I was one year of age. Never seen him since. Thanks for that.

 

Reality lease posted

is this the thread where Shibari (A Bujinkan grade from Japan IIRC) called me a liar about bringing Stephen K Hayes to the UK, and then was proved wrong, and eventually banned from the forum for insulting me.

Oh yes he was....this is what he posted

and then I posted this fron google groups...

Yep another bujinkan person trying to put me down, resorting to insults and then gets banned.

Do you also realise that nearly everyone on that thread was asking Shibari to come forward and give information on himself and not hide behind false names, and being a little shadowy about his training.

Sound familiar?

 

Reality Please posted

Coming from an art based on deception?

 

He's not worth it Garth

 

He's not worth it Reality Please.

 

Okay, maybe a little back on, well, topic.

You're out to dinner with your new lover, whose last name you haven't quite memorized. As you're waiting for your table, you glance over at the bar. There, you see someone--an ex-lover with whom you had a very torrid affair back in college. She waves and offers a faint smile; you wave back. Are as you are seated, your new lover casually asks, "Who was that girl who waved at you?" You respond, "A girl I knew from my university days. She was in a few of my classes." After describing a few more random bits about her--her major, perhaps, and how you never expected to see her again as she'd moved to the west coast--you move the conversation to juicier items on your carnal menu.

You told the truth, and nothing but the truth.

Except when you omitted the part where you and that girl dated for two years, she moved in with you for one very hot, very kinky summer, and how she'd broken your heart when she decided to go to graduate school on the west coast...with your former roommate, Philip.

Why not just tell your new lover the truth right then and there on your new "hot date"?

A year or so later, you arrive home from work a little late, and your partner, who is now living with you, questions, "Why are you so late?" Your partner is standing before a beautifully laid out table, with flowers lovingly arranged, a bottle of wine, and your favorite dish ready for eating, waiting for your reply.

You were, well, actually on the phone with that aforementioned ex-lover, who'd seen to it to contact you. You can recall feeling a faint sense of razbliuto toward her as you remember the lilting sound of her voice, and a slight twinge of...something...when she asked if you'd care to visit her sometime and share "morning coffee."

Instead of blurting out the truth, you deceive her: "Ah, the meeting ran late, then there was this idiot on the freeway who broke down. But wow, this is so beautiful. You did all this? This is just, wow, I love you so much, honey."

You lie. You flat-out lie to your partner. Why?

Lying in bed after a particularly exhilarating session of lovemaking, that same girl who prepared you dinner a year ago, is now your fiance. Seeming to remember that little "barside glance" toward your ex-lover from college two years before, she suddenly asks you how many lovers you really had before she came along, and whether or not you ever still think about any of them.

Do you boast and brag about your many conquests--and admit that, quite frankly, you think about that one "ex-" of yours from time to time? Do you rapidly admit that you've even talked to her on the phone, and that she's even living in the same town as the two of you?

Or do you switch the topic, veer around it, move it sideways...

Why would you lie to the person you claim to love and trust the most?

Harmony.

Maybe that's the whole idea behind this "lying" or "deception" we hear about. Could it be the Japanese have a different sense of what's important in their culture, that, instead of having some confrontation, instead of "causing a big scene" (as my mom would've put it), they'd rather simply do something else than tell an errant student, "You're outta here! Buzz off!"?

Hasn't anyone here ever lied or deceived someone in order to keep the peace? Have none of us gone out of our way to avoid that giant White Elephant lumbering about the room? What if the Japanese--and I'm not talking about Western culture here, but a completely different paradigm--valued the idea of everyone getting along smoothly over our, Western idea of "honesty" (provided the people reading this are actually all "Western").

A person comes in and trains, and the instructor teaches them...a little less vigorously than they do others. But the person is trained. Not enough to get themself killed, but perhaps a little "off". Those who are favored, they get the "real deal" in time after establishing an actual relationship with the instructor. Could it be some people do not willingly dole out their secrets (if there are any "secrets" per se to be doled out) to just any "ya-hoo" who steps onto the tatami with them? That, in order to actually be taught "in the correct manner", they actually want to make sure you can be trusted...in every way, shape and form?

I realize this is a silly (probably logical fallacy) analogy, but I'm pressed for time and it came to my head. You have a party at your place. You own firearms, swords, or an expensive sports car or other collectors car (like a muscle car). Your very good friend introduces you to their friend from work, who tells you how your very good friend told them all about your gun/sword/sports car. They ask you if you'd care to show them the firearm, sword, or car. Sure, you reason, why not? So, you show them. Nice.

However, they then ask if they can hold the firearm, sword, or sit in your expensive auto. Figuring, hey, why not, they have good references, but still feeling also a little guarded, you allow them to handle your firearm (with the magazine ejected, receiver locked in place, and the barrel cleared of course), your sword (but not out of the scabbard), or sit in the passenger seat of the car. They then ask you if maybe you could "show them a little something."

Now you're getting a little...something. Your friend looks at you expectantly--he's seen you "do your thing" at the range, in the dojo or maybe even in a fight, or on the track. He seems so eager to have you impress his co-worker by doing something showy; he seems to just expect you to do it because, well, he asked you to.

But you don't feel so eager. So, you feign interest. You even agree to do a little something...but just not now. You have to get back to your other guests. You can't find the key to the gun lock. The sword can't be wielded right now because there's not enough room. The car's supercharger intake runner gaskets need to be replaced, or the rotors and bearings need to be serviced.

In other words, you get to a certain level of comfort with the stranger, but they seem a bit over-eager, so you show them what you feel is enough to satiate their curiosity, and little more, in order to keep them (and your friend) from being disappointed. To keep everything running smoothly at your party, to keep them from "making a scene" or growing discontent. So, you show them most of what they want to see--maybe even show them even more. Maybe you tell the "new guy" you keep the gun in a dresser drawer, but you actually don't keep it there (who would?). Maybe you show the "yahoo" the shift pattern of your "baby"...but forget to tell them about the shift-lockout feature.

To keep everything just going at an even pace, okay boys, that's nice, let's go back in the house and have another cocktail.

Maybe the reason the Japanese "lie and deceive" while taking that money is because having that "even pace", that smooth running living space, is more important to their culture [???] than whatever we might feel with righteous indignation or petulant expectation should be handed to us. You pay to train, well, you get to train. Whether or not the training you get is 100% the training is irrelevant: you're happy, they're happy, everyone swirls about with a smile on their face and no one is engaged in any ugly confrontations. And, those who eventually figure out they're not getting the full deal, or who get their butts kicked doing the "half-techniques" leave, move on, disappear, leaving the full-on stuff for those who are trusted, let into the inner circle, who've established a relationship with the person in charge.

So, while lying and deceiving might be the Ultimate No-No in Western culture, where we seem to actually thrive on confrontation and drama and dis-harmony, maybe the idea of getting along harmoniously in other cultures is more important, and that "White Elephant" lumbering about the room is allowed to lumber about until Death Do You Part, without ever being mentioned by either party, all in the name of...harmonious living.

Cheers,

Snake

 

Snake,
I think you are on track and I have similar views. Maybe this will help:
http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/buddhism/parable_burning_house.html

Actually that version misses the interpretation of the truth. He created vehicles to transport them from danger. The carts existed, but not in the sense they assumed. Asia is full of truth/lies and lies/truth. the important thing is the heart/motivation behind it.

I think.

 

No, this was the thread where you were exposed for using half truths and misinformation to "market" yourself. The funny thing is that you haven't changed in the 2 years since that thread. Clearly you don't have a problem with stretching the truth in order to attract more students, as we have been through over several threads.

Deception in movement, strategy, etc. sure, that is all in Sun Tzu. However, we are talking about purposefully misleading people in order to make a buck. You are just another half trained foreigner pretending to teach a Japanese martial art, so you are not in the minority but that doesn't make it right. You don't have any clue about the true techniques from the ryuha that make up the Takamatsuden or about who/what the ninja were historically, that much is clear from your posts.

 

Well, at least we know how you feel about the OP. I wonder if your students know...

 

Reality Please posted

and

Well that of course is your opinion, however for me honesty begins with firstly stating who you are, and i've laid that out quite succinctly and answered all questions in a thread entitled "Garth and others credentials", stating my full name and where I train, and being totally forthcoming with who I have trained with and how long I have trained together with the grades that I now hold.

What I havent done is give myself a high grade, (Not even in my own art) or claimed that I have been given certain secret teaching from a secrtet ninja master.

Based on the few grades I have students can either accept me as a teacher, (although I prefer to think of myself as a fellow student) or not. The choice is theirs.

You may indeed have a point if I had made up a false history and inflated myself grade wise but this has not occured. I dont even claim to be teaching Ninjutsu, as what we do now is called Hikendo (See next post) and even have our own badges (See avatar) that do not reflect Ninjutsu in any way shape or form. So if I was claiming to teach "Ninjutsu" (and I mean classical ninjutsu) you may have a point.

Sure in the past I have made mistakes, for example I used the phrase "Trained with" when I should have used the term "Attended a seminar by" and I admitted at the time that it was probably just a bad way of putting it, but it was semantics.

So no i'm not claiming that I am innocent of making mistakes, but when people have pointed out things that are maybe a little off then I have rectified them.

But you see as I say to me honesty starts with saying who you are, and giving a full martial history, however some just hide behind false names and when asked who their teacher is they simply state "A shihan". And then have the audacity to criticise others about honesty when they are unwilling to show complete honesty themselves.

But if you would point out where I have stretched the truth I will quite hapilly respond to those points. At the end of the day I have nothing to hide.

 

Observation

a year or so ago I started the martial art of Hikendo, this was based on my experiences in martial arts, my experiences on the streets in real situations and my training (and Qualifications) in control and restraint, Physical intervention, conflict resolution management etc. I decided to to change the name to Hikendo, away from Ninjutsu so as not to get branded as a bogus ninjutsu instructor. However it is now quite obvious to me that even if you decide to rebrand what you do as something new, and not use the buzz word ninjutsu, you still get attacked as being a bogus ninjutsu instructor. In essence if you spend a few years studying Ninjutsu and then break away and start your own art, in the minds of many you are still a fraud. So it really is a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. As I say just my observation.

 

Reality Please posted

Strange then that if my original premises is at fault why so many people disagree with your counter premise.

I disagree, however i'm very concerned with adressing this fully as I don't wish to derail the thread, but lets just say that I don't for one moment believe that what you are learning in Japan today is in any way shape or form, ninjutsu, and has probably drifted so far away from the original teachings of what Takamatsu taught that if he was alive today he wouldn't recognise it, and secondly I believe that much of "Ninjutsu" from the early days is actually being taught in the western world, and many have been exposed to it.

This elitist idea that only in Japan can you get the truth is absolute rubbish, where only two things are possible.

1/ That the art is in the western world, and is available without going to Japan. afer all Hatsumi has spent years teaching all over the world in over 50 countries for at last 30 years.

or

2/ Hatsumi has been a bit fraudulent by claiming to teach ninjutsu and the associated ryu ha but hasn't taught any at all.

I will also go a stage further and suggest that what I see now (and I could be wrong) is a lot of "Dangling the carrot" with techniques that to me at least seem highly questionable (Roppo Kuji Biken anyone).

And finally we have seen the quality of people that have trained for long periods in japan and achieved high grades in the Bujinkan and if they have been exposed to the secrets of Ninjutsu, then it really doesn't show in their movement or ability. So why should i believe that only in Japan can you get the rael truth.

But of course I guess you, and you alone are the one that is exposed to the real teachings

I'm not the one that is claiming to be studying the secrets of Ninjutsu. I was just wondering based on how much time you are on the internet when you get time to train?

I absolutely agree, but the problem is that this argument where I can't possibly know what Ninjutsu is, because i have never trained in Japan is moot. Your working from the premise that a person who cannot read Japanese and hasn't trained in Japan can't accurately state that Ninjutsu is a self defence art. And this si where you are wrong.

In fact your argument is very close to what I would call an Ad Hominem attack i.e. "Dont listen to him as he's a liar, and has never been to Japan or studied the language"

I don't mate, and I was surprised that you accused me of doing so. You have used the term Judeo Christian filters yet if you knew anything about me you would know that these are one filter that I refuse to accept or try to see through. Granted there is an underlying Judeo Christian Filter that is in any western society, but this Judeo christian Filter is something that I have been battling against for years.

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/local/museum_man_resigns_over_darwin_sign_row_1_931689

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/local/museum_in_censorship_row_over_darwin_sign_1_931154

How long did you live in Japan and train at the Genbukan or Bujinkan hombu or under any of the original Japanese students of Hatsumi sensei?

 

Garth,

Is this legit or being used without your consent:

http://www.mycarving.co.uk/hikendo/index.htm

It seems this guy runs (or used to run) www.uscninjutsu.com which had plagiarised text from Chris' (?) site http://www.ninjutsuaustralia.com/

Is this deception?

 

hi Gap Jumper.

USC Ninjutsu was a group that was running in Bedford. We joined together a few months ago with the group coming under our banner (Hikendo). The website your looking at is a version in progress (under construction) and will be completely original when finished. The USC website will be changed, and I believe may be coming down to be replaced with the Hikendo one.

I will make the instructor in Bedford aware and we will get it changed.

Thanks

 

Oh you poor misunderstood martyr you. Observation: you have and continue to misrepresent yourself as a marketing ploy. Thus, any flak you encounter is justified. Let me try to explain it simply. Usually we go to elementary, junior, and then high school before matriculating to a college(university if you will). Perhaps a graduate degree after that.

Now your exposure to Takamatsuden arts reads like a who's who of famous teachers but your actual time training with any of the Japanese masters or noted foreign teachers(ie Doron) was actually a few seminars here or there. You never mentioned how long you lived and trained in Japan(as this is where the teachers who know the arts live), and you never said you had Doron come stay with you for a few years. So, you mention 24 years of training and this and that but the reality is much different. You even have the audacity to post your paltry grades in Genbukan, Toshindo, etc as if that is supposed to impress anyone. It would be like a high school dropout putting on their resume that they graduated from junior high. Your Xkan credentials don't even add up to a high school degree, yet you market them in an attempt to pad your resume.

If you had made a clean break with the Japanese arts(which you admittedly know very little about), stopped claiming a "lineage" in the arts that make up the Takamatsuden, and named your school something like Garth's Reality Based Self Protection Academy, then maybe people would be sympathetic to your position. However, you continue to post on the ninjutsu forum, claim to know ninjutsu, and named your school using Japanese words. You can't have it both ways. I was going to post from your webpage but it seems to have disappeared. :vanish: At any rate, this site says it all. Your claims are big and bold, just not really true now are they?

http://www.cylex-uk.co.uk/company/hikendo-goshinjutsu-17523241.html

If there was a reason that you broke from the Xkans due to some perceived lack in the techniques(and not yourself or your poor understanding of them), then why would you claim them still? If the techniques are sound but you never learned them, what possible basis could you have for claiming them? As it is, you are just another foreigner posing as if you know something mystic from the Orient, though you have never spent any time learning the culture, history, or martial arts of the country in question(Japan in this case), and you are trying to market yourself as knowing something you don't(ie ninjutsu or Takamatsuden arts). Yet you have the audacity to question other people's honesty when yours is so blatantly lacking. Liars and frauds stick together, this much you have shown and your honor among thieves as it is, is applaudable. However, to the unknowing public who live in your area, I do feel sympathy.

It's not damned if you do, it is damned because you didn't. Didn't learn anything about ninjutsu or Takamatsuden arts. Didn't admit that when you started teaching. Didn't learn from your mistakes. I stil can't believe you aren't ashamed of yourself, but each man makes his bed...

 

Re: http://www.cylex-uk.co.uk/company/hikendo-goshinjutsu-17523241.html


Oh thats the same text as is on the http://www.mycarving.co.uk/hikendo/index.htm Bedford site mentioned previously...

 

Nothing to hide, just no truth on your side.

 

Wow. The bitterness and self-importance here is stunning. Enough to put me off ever wanting to learn ninjitsu or even associate with anyone who proclaims themself as a student of it.

Well done reality - you're a great advertisement for the humility and politeness of students of your art. I thank you for bringing the truth about it before I ever made the mistake (however unlikely it was to happen) of looking seriously at ninjitsu.

 

You seem to enjoy derailing threads, maybe it makes you important.

 

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