Spanish Influence on FMAs

When I was in Manila last, I went to Rizal Park one day. I met a guy practicing FMA. He was a guru, aged in his mid 40s, from a clan in Quezon city area. We got talking about the history of San Juan and he told me a story about some crazy filhispanic clan in the area. They had some connection with Argentina. To be honest I forgot the name of the clan. They were brothers who were notorious criminals. I think their family originally came from europe and the patriach was from europe. I can't remember what date the family went there; maybe 19th centuary. They had something to do with import/export. Anyway the Were talking about the 1930s.

They were five brothers; bad news, real brutes. They knew how to fight with the blades. They ran an extortion racket, so there was steady income. I guess they wanted to make more money. Through their contacts they found out that a well off foreigner, an engineer i think, was living over in malate. He worked for an Railway company, or some company that had something to do with the railway there. So they began sniffing in that area, spotted him and stalked him, checking his movements. They followed him to his home one day, and got into his home. The police later found his body 'all over' his bedroom (well one of his rooms). He was butchered. The place was picked clean.

That's all i can remember about that story. Those are some heavy dudes. Thats all i heard about latin bladesters. Yikes.

P.S. - You were an original punk! wow.

 

I hope someone here can chime in on this. Another good post.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but GM Nap Fernandez's Yaw-Yan is considered new and Sikaran is pre-Spanish, but that both have no weapons component.

The style from Central Pangasinan is interesting. Do they use Arnis de Mano or something different, and what type of terminology is used? Is it the same as GM Marinas' farm based terminology? Or something totally different? And how is it similar or different from Cebuano schools which use Spanish terms?

If we agree that according to records when Americans took the Philippines only 50% or less spoke Spanish, then the idea of lingua franca is somewhat on shaky grounds. Base on my own family's history, from the Philippine countryside, they didn't speak Spanish.

Most of the Spanish speakers lived in large towns, most of the native population did not.

Again, I'm Cebuano so my only knowledge of the Ilustrados is from books. I have no personal knowledge of say how Rizal or the Luna brothers learned swordsmanship in the Manila area. But I always thought they learned in Spain or from Spanish influenced instructors.

But to counter your claim that Spanish was used to cater to the Ilustrados, at least in Cebu, most (if not all) Eskrima families were not Ilustrados, and if we agree on the first point (that most Filipinos did not speak Spanish), why use Spanish to teach non-Ilustrados, who did not speak Spanish in the first place? As posited in your early commercialization theory. So that's pedagogy.

As for communication, Rizal wrote in Spanish because his audience were the Filipino elite and the Spaniards, not necessarily the non-Spanish speaking masses. Again, back to the first point that only 50% or less Filipinos knew Spanish at this time.

If we don't agree that at the time only 50% or less Filipinos spoke Spanish, then we are viewing history with two very different lenses. So, I think we'll have to tackle this issue first.

 

The WWI clip looked pretty arty to me of portuguese stickfighting. The footwork and the length of the stick were pretty synched. Between the fighters in the first part of the video.

I use a lot of triangular footwork in my style; triangle (base line, x2 sides, base to apex line) triangles (forward, backward). But your also using lines (straight, diagonal) that are within the triangle framework. The larger triangles can be built from smaller triangles, noticeable when you travel in a line. Point here is not to think too much of triangles at largo range and beyond, but in medyo and corto. Then the triangles become significant; perhaps because fighting on the outside and blindside, usually requires a side step (base line) and a forward step and attack (diagonal line) into the centre line. Note centreline is abstract because it is the front and the side of opponent. Also if it gets a bit hairy you can move back straight or diagonal to counter-attack (backward triangle).

If you are stationary at any fixed location, think 8-point directions; 8 rays emmitting from your fixed location. Then as you move you go into lines and triangles. This is about it for footwork.


Filipino History X (By Busted Rhymez) It is in a hip-hop format. Young, angry, historical resonances.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLvLmrAjakM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLvLmrAjakM[/ame]

 

I was trying to find some articles I've read about Spanish in the Philippines in 1898, but I couldn't find the ones I had in mind. But I did find this one:

(Note: This study cites only 3% were fluent in Spanish, there are other statistics that put this figure up to 30-50%. To give the benefit of the doubt, I'm using 50% or less, but the point is that Spanish was not widely spoken in the late 1800s)

 

Pedagogy redux

Thanks, onpoint. Your research just furthers my assumption.
My conjecture is that it is the popularised, commercially driven styles of FMA that largely adopted the Spanish based nomenclature. Why? Again because of the intended audience / clientele.
Who had money in those times? The illustrado class. And what language did they speak? Spanish, as confirmed by your research.
So a pedagogy and system had to be devised and this is what has survived. You see, systematization and creation of a curriculum leads to preservation. Previously, the arts where taught in a freeform manner, bara-bara (which, incidentally, is a loan word from Nihongo), in the local dialect. Systematization and curriculum formation to cater to the clientele resulted in formalisation.

There were "Sallas de armas" in Laguna and other Tagalog regions by the mid-19th century. Rizal studied at one of those. It wouldn't be a far stretch to assume that FMA, now with Spanish nomenclature, was taught at those places, along with fencing, boxing and wrestling.

Let me give another example: The New Testament, especially the four Gospels, reflects the teachings of Jesus Christ, who probably spoke in the Hebrew of His place of birth. The Gospels may have originally been written in that language, and then translations made into Greek, the intellectual language of that time. St Jerome translated these texts into Latin, which is the basis for the various translations of the New Testament today. But the Greek text is responsible for Christian concepts like Agape, Metanoia, and Epiphany. Even the word "Christ" is Greek in origin. But no one would call Christianity a "Greek Religion" (Yes, I know, there is a "Greek Orthodox Church").

What this thought experiment is leading to is that just because a word for a concept or technique is in a certain language, it does not, ipso facto, originate from the country of that language. Again, we have the theories of commonality of movement to explain the similar looking techniques, and now, pedagogy for the intended audience to explain the language for the terms.

The thing is, we can pursue these thought experiments to no end and still be no closer to pinning down the exact origin of the nomenclature of the techniques as well as the techniques themselves. This is the futility of trying to separate out the influences without actual documentation, which we will probably never have.

Now, about other systems using a non-Spanish nomenclature.. even famous styles have some non-Spanish terms.. Balintawak uses the term "Palakaw".. that is Cebuano, isn't it?

Let's take the example of GM Remy Presas' Modern Arnis.. In the "pink book", (which I bought back when I was taking PE Arnis at the state university in Diliman ), the terms, outward block, inward block, downward outward and downward inward block are used. GM R Presas was again tailoring his pedagogy to the intended students, in this case, university students. I regret not buying the "blue book", which was the same book but in Filipino / Tagalog. What were the original terms then? Were they Spanish, Cebuano, Negrense or Ilonggo? We won't know without documentation.

As for the Pangasinan style I studied, it is called "Sinkatan". We use terms like "awan patinggana", "tagbat", "awat tadem" and "atep". These terms describe movements that can also be found in the styles with Spanish nomenclature. Maybe they never got translated because the style was not commercialised?

Once more I conclude with saying that whatever the Filipinos adopt and adapt, it becomes uniquely Filipino, no matter what language is used for it

Daghang Salamat

Cito

 

Definitely Portuguese!

Correct, purely coincidental! I love these guys and those Venezuelan old masters! Thanks for posting these links Pat!

 

This proves that STICK FIGHTING was regarded as a true combat art by men who actually fought.

 

Your Tochadas don't mean much. You got to practice Estocada a lot more to refine your pointless pokes. I am not insulted. I don't want to derail this thread which can tackle issues that I regard as very important and vital to understand the very foundation of FMA and Filipino Psyche so I will refrain myself from engaging in useless retorts with you. It will be my honor to have Cito as my spokesperson.

 

...we already our "Sabre"when they arrived.The only influence of the spanish era was to carry a gun:woopistolero) Batikang Kalaga!

 

Kaibigang Raul,

You don't need me to speak for you. Your words stand very well on their own. And I got your point about the Magic 8 ball

Agyamanak (Thank you)

 

i can't speak for marinas pananandata, but in garimot arnis, we use a mix of spanish and tagalog terms, although predominantly tagalog. our cinco teros (spanish) has footwork called depensa mayor (spanish) and handa (tagalog). strikes called buhat araw (tagalog) and bartikal (spanish). i'm not sure how that fits into the language-based pedagogy hypothesis.

for me, though, the most striking evidence speaking for spanish influence is the nature of the fma that originates from the spanish-controlled/catholicized areas of the philippines vs. that of bangsamoro. it doesn't make sense to me that the spanish control would fall along the lines of pre-existing marked differences in structure and pedagogy of native arts. instead, it would suggest spanish influence, if not on movement, on mindset at least. following from that, the specific spanish influence would be determined from the difference between the fma, taken as a whole, from the arts of their near neighbors. differences between specific styles of fma would speak to different amounts of influence from different cultural arts, but also to regional differences.


tim

 

You are clever but you definitely are not wise. You are not even decently clever. Your pseudo-scholarly long-winded posts have all the whistles and bells but sadly no bang. Even this meager four-sentence attempt to insult and ridicule failed its aim.
I have a run-in with a couple of guys from another forum at the same time that this thread was going on but they don't bother me. You do. I literally felt like vomiting and I wondered why. Something awakened inside me, something I can only describe as primal angst and sadness.
I first heard the word colonial mentality when I was a kid and it never meant anything to me. I regarded it as a cliche that everybody spewed out to fill-up gaps in their statements and arguments. Now it means something to me. I know now deeply what it means.
The Spaniards invaded my forefathers land. They raped our women, plundered our land, stole everything we have and robbed our dignity. They forced their INFLUENCE by OWNING our land, our properties, our arts, our culture, and our people.They named my forefathers land Islas Filpinas because it was their land now.They stole our beliefs and replaced it with something else to control us. They stole our gods and replaced it with their own god.They GAVE us Spanish names because they owned us. They named our fighting methods ESCRIMA, ESTOCADA, FRAILE, FLORETE, because they owned what we had and who we were. We were a conquered nation and should bear the mark of who conquered us on everything we had and in all that we did.
I now understand the viewpoints of the advocates of Kali The Mother Art and what they are fighting for. I used to ask my students not to call my art Kali but today is a new day. They will now call it Kali simply to declare that we are no longer a conquered nation. We were enslaved but are now free. I will change all the Spanish terminologies to local dialects and languages.This will take a lot of work, i.e. to erase the mark of slavery, and I will start today. We will own back what the Spaniards stole from us!
Thank you onpoint for leading me to a newfound faith.

 

Ok I'm Stepping in here. You will behave in a respectful manner and if you don't want to answer questions then simply say so. If you don't believe I will take action you can join the line of those I have had removed from the forum.
Reading some history books once in a while on Pre-Spanish slavery in the Philipines might not go amiss. You cannot unwrite history by changing some names and denial.

The Bear.

 

I can engage you Polar Bear in the same manner and attitude but I won't. I don't want to derail this thread.

 

You're welcome!

Before you go on your revisionist tour de force, make sure you check with Manongs Romeo Macapagal and Rey Galang. I don't know how much freedom you have on actually changing your terminology, but please think of GM Ilustrimo, and the Ilustrisimo clan from Bantayan Island, Cebu, they had no problems with the Spanish terms.

Like I said Marcos did this first, it's nothing original, you can rename things to your hearts content. Call it Kali Raul, it won't change history.

As for colonial mentality, I like you have no Spanish blood. I look as indigenous as you (maybe a little more handsome, but you know what I mean). So I have no vested interest in the Spanish in FMA, my interest is purely historical. I want to know.

Don't get too melodramatic, I called you out because you were acting a fool. Citom stated his case without coming off as ignorant and arrogant. I was just simply trying to urge you to do the same. Instead, you get all dramatic like this. :google:

 

Wise decision.

The Bear.

 

Thanks, Citom. Another good post. Can you offer translations for the above words? They are all Ilokano right?

I'll answer the rest, either today or next week, will need to finish work before the weekend. Good stuff none the less, Citom!

 

Try Ambien and Xanax.:zzz:

 

I absolutely and categorically agree 100%. Whether some one gives something to you or you take it once you own it it now belongs to you and is part of you. Take the balisong for instance said to be invented in Batangs by a man called De Leon yet when you go through the records at the patent office in England you will se the very same knife being patented in the 1800's as a sailors knife for use in the powder room. Its brass folding handle was there to prevent sparks from the knife and igniting to cordex. But we all recognise and accept it as a Filipino knife.

Apart from the Royal Armouries in Leeds who have it listed as a Taiwanese knife because it has made in Taiwan stamped on it??????

Best regards


Pat.

 

The original patent for the British balisong knife was in 1880 Bontgen & Sabin's 4/12/1880. They where later produced in Germany around 1885.

So British influence in FMA?

But then again we can find examples of the balisong with Espana stamped on them dated 1895 but the earliest claim to it is by the French from the late 1600's to the early 1700's where you can find a sketch of a balisong in a French book titled La Penn and dated 1710.

The mechanism was patented in the USA by Charles Billings of Conneticute in 1908 and it is believed to have been brought to the Philippines by American troops.

So here we have possible influence in one portion of the FMA by Britain Spain France Germany and the USA. Anglo European.

Bearing in mind a lot of pinoys where great mariners it would not be surprising for them to own one around that time.

But the way it is used is strictly Filipino.

Best regards

Pat