Hi Beak, I did watch the whole video and that's why I think the argument breaks down. He argues that non-live movements are only conditioning. But boxers jump rope NOT ONLY for conditioning but also to ingrain a certain style of movement. The footwork used when jumping rope looks nothing like the footwork you actually use to box, but it has been widely established jumping rope helps a boxers footwork nonetheless. That's why I don't buy the argument that Sumbrada, (or whatever) is useless, it's just that some people only do that stuff and don't spar. cz
And in case you missed it: "My name is Rick Faye. I have run the Minnesota Kali Group, a martial arts school in Minneapolis, Minnesota, for over twenty years. "I see we are once again in the midst of controversy as yet another generation asserts itself. There seems to be a new examination of whether drills in martial arts are productive. Along with this seems to go a wholesale disposal of technical information from the arts we train. "First off, let me say that I am adding my opinion as a way to solidify my own thoughts, and to constantly re-examine what we teach and train at the Minnesota Kali Group. I don’t have any great hope of changing minds (they seem to be quite convinced of their own genius). I’m also not here to challenge anyone’s abilities. The J.K.D. family has always been full of people much more physically talented than I. "I will weigh in with what experience I have. It seems to me that Sifu Dan Inosanto has settled these issues at every seminar for the last twenty-five years. I’ll try to repeat, in my own language, the messages that seemed so obvious to me from the very start. "Drills work, and are necessary for most students. Drills themselves are not fighting – that’s understood, and this has been pointed out at every seminar I have ever been to. Drills allow students to go through a progressive learning process, and make the art accessible to many different types of students. Drills help to pass on combative and developmental insights gained over time at the cost of many lives. Drills allow concentrated repetition on important aspects of the art. Drills also happen to be fun, which is important for those of us who don’t spend every waking moment trying to “kick ass” on the next random attacker. "In martial arts we are in the business of trying to modify how people act under stress. This generation has come up with the stunning revelation that personal combat is an aggressive, frenzied, painful and nasty business where things get very difficult. (I’m sure the warriors of the ages will be thankful that someone has finally discovered the true nature of combat.) It will be interesting to see how they go about passing these insights on to students of different abilities, different personalities, different values, and different needs. Could it be that creating drills of some sort would help the student get a glimpse of their instructor’s true brilliance? "I apologize for the tone of these statements, but it seems to me that people are overstepping. Sifu Inosanto, Master Chai, and many other great martial artists have taught us through drills. So now, we have students who make their personal discoveries public, and are inadvertently disrespectful to those who taught them. (Respect of any kind is one of the deeper values that has left martial arts in the last years.) Are they questioning the intellect or the sincerity of these teachers? Either they don’t see these instructors as smart enough to guide students correctly, or they believe they are somehow filling the time with useless fluff. I don’t see either of these as the truth. "There are good reasons why most martial systems take many years to “declare” a student a “master” or even an instructor. The perspective and maturity gained by years in the arts are very important. You need perspective to understand complete developmental cycles for many kinds of students. You also need perspective to understand the many different ways to approach the art. You need maturity to be able to understand the place for your capabilities in life. You also need maturity to assess your role as instructor and as a martial artist in life. The martial artists that I admire are outwardly mild and easily approachable. They think and act on many levels – most of them much deeper than just fighting. "Next point: we have been constantly told three related things. Number one: just because the technique or strategy doesn’t work for you in your circumstance doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. The fact that a technique doesn’t work is not always because it is structurally ineffective. Most failures in martial arts are due to a problem in attributes, such as distancing, timing, rhythm, strength, line familiarization, etc. It could also be that the technique was tried in the wrong circumstance. A gym is not always the best format for each technique. "Two: we should constantly experiment to find what does work for us at this stage of our development. As we experiment with different things, we will find that we are able to do some things quite naturally, and that others will take development. "Three: we should determine what attributes we need to train to become functional in a given area. Many of the drills we do are designed to improve certain attributes. Like weight training, they are more about development than they are directly related to fighting. In many aspects of the arts, we simply need more repetition on specific motions. Drills are often the best way to get the desired repetitions in the shortest amount of time. "Martial arts are an intensely personal search. To discredit anyone’s way of practicing his art, is very arrogant, and not a credit to Sifu Inosanto’s example. Sifu Inosanto has always taught us that each individual will find his or her own way. Some, however, will find their way and then tell everyone about it. This assumes a level of accomplishment, intellect, ability and insight that may not actually be there, other than in the mind of that person. "I believe we can all find something in the arts that fascinate us. Yes, we need to examine the material for function and application. In our analysis, we need to keep in mind a broader context. The art should serve as a tool for self-development as well as self-defense. There is room for more than one area of training. To narrow our focus to include only what works against a determined athlete in the gym when performed by a talented athlete is to set “limitations” on J.K.D. I admire the athleticism and durability of extreme competitors, but it remains a small part of this great art. Extreme contact is not for everyone, and should not dictate our training. “Ultimate” or “Extreme” formats can be learned from, and that knowledge should be added to the things in which we train, not replace them completely. "As for the Minnesota Kali Group, we will continue to use drills to train our students. Making this art accessible to a wider variety of students has been my goal, and I will continue to seek out methods that allow average people to improve their lives. If you get a chance to visit, look forward to working on Thai Boxing combinations, Sumbrada and other great stick drills, a whole variety of drills for sensitivity and body feel, set focus mitt combinations, grappling drills, and equipment training set out in combinations. You’ll find all sorts of students having a great time, and improving in all sorts of areas."
Sure, he does, but do you agree with getting rid of sumbrada or hubud (not really a KSW, question, huh?) EDIT....oh wait, you just posted again as I was asking this...
As good as he is, students of Boxing should note how 'Pacman' throws just about every straight left out, but fails to bring his hand back along the same path. He drops it just about every time, which leaves him — potentially – open to his opponent's right hand over the top.
Thanks. I'll remember that if I ever face him in the underground kumite on that tropical island I go to every year.
Another 2¢ worth of my thoughts... In the Matt Thornton vid posted by The_Beak (post #18), near the end of that clip he persuades instructors to accept the validity of his i-method by proposing the instruction of 2 separate groups, one with "traditional" drills that lack aliveness, and the other using the i-method (Introduce, Isolate, Integrate). So this got me to thinking about an incident which helped convince me that not all "tried & true" methods are the best. In almost all the MA I ever studied, the insistence to start sparring early seems to always be looming over the teaching of the art. And yet I once had a student (who wasn't a naturally gifted fighter, BTW), whom I did not teach sparring to until after many, many months (going by the old curriculum, he was a newly promoted red-belt, which means he was proficient with maek-chigi/maek-chagi and jew-muck maga KBS - i.e. one-step sparring drills for any not familiar with the KSW syllabus). I should probably mention that I don't teach the old blue-belt techniques where the person punching just sticks their fist out for the other person to block or grab, but with "aliveness" where if not dealt with properly, should be aimed with sufficient force to knock the opponent's head off evil. So all I needed to do was teach a handful of drills which help to incorporate ring-generalship, and this guy was sparring at a level equivalent to most people that had been training for a year or more. I determined that part of this has to do with the fact that many people who start sparring early inevitably pick up bad habits which they have to *unlearn* in order to become better at engaging an opponent. Not so with this guy in my anecdote. I suspect that his sparring training followed more along the lines of the i-method, albeit my own little mix instead of the drills espoused by Matt Thornton. I was both astonished and proud that this guy, after only a few lessons of sparring, could avoid many of the pitfalls & mistakes that so many fall prey to, and therefore require the long and arduous process of unlearning so they can replace those bad habits with more effective maneuvers. I appreciate that many people don't want to wait before getting to spar, and perhaps Mr. Thornton's methods can alleviate many of the bad habits which are so typical of beginners. But for TMA (and HKD in particular), I hope my anecdote illustrates that by simply following the prescribed order of the syllabus and waiting before thrusting your students into sparring, can allow a person's understanding of body mechanics to be enhanced by means of countless repetitions of the basic joint-locks, plus it gives them more time to develop better balance with all of their kicks, and just might be a decent alternative to the way it's usually done. After all, it apparently worked for the guy in my anecdote. :thinking:
I was referring to another video I had posted earlier when he says something like: 99% of TMA is bullsh!t. which I disagree with but is an opinion I Imagine he formed after many, MANY bad experiences with TMA(chip on his shoulder) I was mostly worried that the Sooler and Wonnies watching the video would hear his assesment of TMA and stop watching there. Which is why I posted this: On the post from Minnesota Kali: Yes, I agree drills are good. Infact the second I in the i-method are drills. He calls them drills. doing them they look and feel like drills. with only 5 minutes of Introduction and "a few rounds of" Integration(sparring) the bulk of his classes are drills. I will try to find the article where he says the majority of his classes are drills CZ post #19 dude you got me there.
...one of my students said recently that he likes forms, because "if you know the hyung, the footwork in the techniques come naturally" Another thing, I remember one time my instructor had us doing trapping drills flowing into Kuk sool locks. Some of us were banging it up trying to be "realistic". Our KJN came over and told us to work on flow and sensitivity, without acting like we were really fighting. He said something to the effect of : "if you practice this way (slowly at first) you will be able to actually use these traps and locks within several months, but if you go hard all the time it will take you ten years to really use them....maybe never". (Of course, we also sparred, too.) So to get back on topic...here are some drills I have had good experiences with: Have a person try to push one person into a wall. Push and pull, do not be linear. The attackers goal is to push the person into the wall. The defender can do any controllable techniques. Have students do an arm bar on someone. The person that executes the technique goes almost to takedown, then lets go and the other person jumps up and tries to sock them in the face (wear a face-cage thingy). When done correctly your arms will be in the proper position to pick off the line of the punch and catch another arm bar, if you have done the first one correctly. repeat. Be sure to practice enough full takedowns so that letting go of an arm bar does not become ingrained. Stand gripping each other’s doboks. fight for any controllable lock without going to the ground. (oh yeah, designating one person to attack and one to defend is best) I like to do these drils with alternately with a combination "slow and flow" where the attacker is somewhat compliant, and also do it as rough as possible, while still controlling the locks, but make sure you use off balancing Free spar with no equipment and controled strikes, but allow any controllable technique. ...also, anyone have any others?
Gee whiz, Cz, I'm gonna find it hard to do this drill you mentioned: You see, I usually train barefoot and therefore have no socks. Seriously, though... them are some good suggestions!
Gee, where have I heard something like that before...? "To me 99 percent of the whole business of Oriental self-defense is baloney, It's fancy jazz. It looks good, but it doesn't work." -Sigung Bruce Lee I myself would put the number around 50%, at least as they are currently being taught... but even if it was 1%, my goal would not to be dispense with TMA, but rather to be in the 1%
It's been 2 months. If anyone still cares I found the article http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/ Here is the specific quote: Once we have completed the introduction stage we head into the key stage of isolation. This is the stage where students are actually drilling. This is the stage where students get to work the movements against Alive resistance. And this is the stage where students actually acquire the critical element of ‘timing’. Timing is not gained from repetitions without resistance. As such we don’t usually refer to any form of repetition without resistance as a drill. All of drilling at SBGi is done Alive. And this linking point between technique, and what actually occurs in a live roll against a fully resisting opponent is know for us as the isolation stage. Contrary to popular misconception, the majority of classes at my Gym are not ‘sparring’; the majority of any class I teach tends to be the isolations stage, it tends to be drilling. As an example, if I am teaching a 60 minute BJJ class, the first 15 minutes or so may be devoted to the introduction stage, the following 30 minutes will be devoted to the drilling or isolation phase, and the last 15 minutes may be devoted to sparring, the integration stage. Of course this is just a sample break down. But most classes are quite close to this example of time. It's a really great article. Sorry for the thread necro. not at all sorry for posting the link. I hope you all had a wonderful Thanksgiving.
Beak, thanks for posting this. In most Dojangs, people are only doing what the article calls the "isolation stage" (when the person grabs your wrist, or whatever, and you do a technique). By now there are several generations of instructors who have been taught be people who never moved beyond the isolation stage. Most do not to understand how to safely do resistance drills with standing joint locks, and some do not even think this is possible.
I'm doing a Joint Locks, Holds & Counters seminar next Sunday (5th Dec), and this is one of the areas I'll be covering.
I have already posted several video clips on YouTube, taken during previous such events. And I think I have a couple of DVD's left of the footage taken at a previous Locks & Holds event. In addition, I am planning to produce a couple or more DVDs on several areas of my training and teaching, early in the New Year.
For me, I have always believed that joint locks are complimentary to striking. By which, I mean that it is usually far easier to apply a joint lock after, or at the same time as you are hitting them. I do of course realise that a Police Officer, for example, may have to try to arrest someone and, in the UK at least, could be in trouble for obviously striking someone whilst trying to do so. But Police Officers usually have fellow Officers close by to assist them anyway. Here is a video (which I may well have posted before — sorry!) showing how this guy employs strikes whilst 'arresting' his 'Dummy' partner. He also uses the hu-bad drill in order to use aliveness whilst applying the locks and holds. Which locks he uses is not important, but the manner in which he applies them is: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D46Vl9b7Osw"]YouTube - JKD Bodyweapon Lock Hold[/ame]
