is Lineage important

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by psbn matt, Feb 19, 2009.

  1. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    That's the impression I've gotten from this thread & responses in others. Inquiry into proof of claims is called "bitching" in this very thread. People who ask questions find their motivations being called into question in a very passive aggressive manner. In another thread, a poster says we're doing it just because we want to destroy KSW's legitimacy & thereby improve our own.

    An interest in history is just that. There's no need for the criticism.
     
  2. KIWEST

    KIWEST Revalued Mapper

    As I said, I am "interested" in the history. It's just not all that important to me. But I grant you, it IS interesting to see the various different versions of "the truth" which are offered on this forum. I just dont see the point in all the arguing on and on into the fine detail (which I call bitching) as to which one is right, as I know that it will be impossible to find the "real truth" anyway.
     
  3. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    In which case...

    In which case, don't you think that there might be an argument for changing it occasionally, if only to add variety and spice things up a bit? Otherwise it's the same old dance over and over again. Isn't combat ever-changing? The last time someone asked me 'how old is your martial art?' I answered, 'as old as the last time I practised it.'
     
  4. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    As to the question in hand [yes I know, it was asked months ago!]: I think that lineage can be important. If I was moving to another part of the world and wanted to continue to practice a particular art, or even take up a completely new art, I'd certainly want to find out who the instructor had been taught by, and what was his/her lineage. Same could be said for someone who wants to study a particular martial art system, who hasn't trained before. The instructor might look and sound the bee's knees to him/her, and they're not to know if they are new to martial arts.

    When people ask me for information and advice about JKD/Kali (for example), I tell them to look for people who have either been certified by, or Apprenticed to Guro Dan Inosanto, or at least seek to train with someone whose lineage takes them back to that source [Inosanto]. It at least gives them an indication as to the quality of instruction you might hope to receive. Mind you, people like Inosanto don't hand out instructor certificates like confetti at a wedding, so that does have a bearing on the situation too!
     
  5. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Since I didn't clarify in my original post (#13), let me do so now. My point was that there were pertinent details omitted in the the versions not taught by the person involved with creating the movements for the pre-arranged sparring pattern. If anything, doing IMITATIONS of movements without understanding WHY you need to be doing a particular maneuver, is definitely "dancing" as you so aptly described it. I feel that those *omitted* details help explain how and when to block various types of attack, and how to open a "hole" in the defensive postures of your adversary so you can get "inside" effectively with your own strikes and win, thus transforming a fancy skit to learn for demos into a viable combat lesson.

    And while not the exact thing being discussed WRT lineage, it helps if certain things like combat effectiveness aren't glossed over as unimportant when teaching/learning staff sparring drills. So if an instructor who is reputed to incorporate something you deem important like combat effectiveness into his training drills, even if it also happens to look nice for demonstration purposes, then if you can't manage to learn directly from said instructor, it's better to learn from someone from his fold that also embraces the importance of combat effectiveness, rather than one who favors how "pretty" or "fancy" they can make it look when showing off for crowds of onlookers. :dunno:



    Ha, ha. I haven't heard the term "bee's knees" in a "coon's age." :D
     
  6. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Because I train in a Korean tradition I tend to work to observe Korean culture where possible. Sometimes I am successful and sometimes I fail miserably. Its the same with my Buddhism if it comes to that. However, regarding the matter of lineage it is important to remember that the role of a teacher in Korean culture is a sacred trust and from that standpoint there is some responsibility to recognized ones own teacher as well as HIS teacher, as far back as is reasonable. Tracing my own Hapkido tradition back to CHOI Yong Sul does not make my technique particularly special but it does help me to meet my responsibility as a student. The same goes for tracing my swordwork back to Nok. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  7. JoKyoNimJey

    JoKyoNimJey Valued Member

    I agree with Bruce...sorta. I would not really want to be what someone in an earlier post called a "******* KSer." Not that being a ******* eliminates a techniques effectiveness, but I really would like to know where I am in the family tree.

    The more recent break-offs of all of the older KS organizations annoys me. I don't want new students to think that their art is an ancient Korean secret when really their grandmaster broke away from another organization a few years ago and decided to give himself a promotion to a rank he may not have deserved.

    I have been doing research on my own regarding this matter, but have pretty much failed, so if anyone could pm me about recent foundings of KS organizations, I may be less inclined to be annoyed.

    And to be clear, I don't think that these breakaways are any better or any worse than their parent, and I don't want to start an argument about that....
     
  8. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Hi, Jey.

    I seriously doubt that anyone would argue that a student who has trained sufficiently long enough under their mentor to grasp the overall understanding of a particular MA, is dramatically worse than the mentor's "hand-chosen" successors, even if the student in question decided to "go their own way" and start their own MA organization.

    That said, let me answer your query here rather than in a PM, as the purpose of the forum is so EVERYONE can benefit from various input. Please don't make me go dig up all the reference material, and even though it isn't all that difficult to find, understand that I just want to shoot back a quick answer (the citations are easily available if you're willing to do a little research).

    Much of the *hard evidence* which would support claims made by WKSA seems to be lacking, which is why so many people refuse to believe the history espoused by this organization. Other evidence exists, however, which doesn't necessarily disprove their stories but is strong enough to cast some doubt about their veracity. The joint-locks for example, are strikingly similar to DRAJJ and the fact that IHS doesn't deny learning from Choi Young-Sool, thus creates a connection to JMA. And while any connection to CMA may cross back to China via an older lineage (there's no escaping the fact that Korean sibpalgi evolved from Chinese gung-fu - just not recently), the similarities of the movements in the KSW forms when compared to certain CMA is undeniable.

    So you can decide for yourself. Either take the stand that the information has been in the hands of Koreans long enough that it should be called a bona fide KMA (just not a TKMA), or you can lean the other way and say that KSW is not Korean at all, but merely a good mix of CMA & JMA. Take your pick (and GOOD LUCK! :cool:).
     
  9. JKNChris

    JKNChris New Member

    Yes and No

    I think the thing that matters is your instructor. Does he/she truly understand the martial arts? If yes, then you have what you are searching for. If not, then learn all you can, and when you can progress no further with them, move on (politely and with all respect due their accomplishments and the knowledge they did share with you!). Having a good teacher does not make one a good student, and having a less than great teacher does not make one a bad student.
    What does it matter who taught who over the past x generations? Why worry whether or not the lineage is full of "all stars" from MA history? The art and your understanding of it is what matters. :)

    Just my two cent's worth.
    JKNChris
     
  10. coc716

    coc716 Just Some Guy

    Oh yes In Hyuk Suh does deny it.

    In Marc Tedeschi's Hapkdio book (printed in the year 2000), he has an interview with IHS:

    If that's not a flat out denial, I don't know what is.

    But then, let's look at Dr. He-Young Kimm's Kuk Sool book from 1985. On page 50 he starts to talk about modern history "The Second Period, 1910-Present". Page 51, Kimm writes:

    Then we can look at In Hyuk Suh's brother, In Sun Seo. In his bio he flat out claims lineage to Choi. http://www.kidohae.com/about-gmseo.html

    One story I heard is that in fact Suh was never directly a student of Choi, but Seo was. So, Seo goes and learns from Choi, then Seo comes home and shows brother Suh what he learned. Maybe passing through the filter of Seo is what turned that yucky untouchable Japanese Yawara from Japanese to pure Korean and thus acceptable to Suh. :p

    Who knows.

    And you see, that's the big problem with all this history and lineage stuff. There's little to no hard evidence, it's all based upon an individual's claims, they all claim what shows them in the best light even if it contradicts others or other facts and history (let's not forget about Hwarangdo), and what they claim today can change tomorrow if they feel it serves their ends best.

    No wonder the joke goes: How can you tell if it's a McDojo? if it's teaching a Korean martial art. :bang:
     
  11. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    LOL.

    Yeah, I was going with an older claim that Seo was a 'regular' student of Choi's while Suh was a 'private' student. Even in the first renditions of the black textbook (the one with pictures of Suh as opposed to the one with pictures of Seo), there was an entire page stating that if you were a history scholar, the fact that you studied history from a 'professor Smith' in junior high (middle school) probably would have little impact on your overall knowledge. Likewise, a similar analogy was drawn WRT Suh and Choi (note: there was NO denial that IHS studied with/under Choi, just that Choi's influence was minimal). But I must admit that when I jotted down that info I forgot about more recent *lies* (I mean interviews) that were made in order to protect a trait that seems rampant among a certain generation of Koreans: namely, Nationalism.

    Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with a little nationalistic pride, and I'm a very patriotic person, myself. But there are TWO different definitions for nationalism:
    1. patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.
    2. an extreme form of this, especially marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.


    FWIW



    Allright! Way to go with linking that website of Bob Duggan's with all that 'old' dirt on HWD.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2009
  12. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I agree with the tenor of many of the comments, but it does not help me understand why folks would rather stick with what was made-up or re-vamped than actually learning the original traditions. The traditional KWON BUP material has its roots in LONG FIST much as did CHEN TAI CHI. The material is not exactly "eye-candy" but its efficient and effective, and a lot more authentic than learn Chinese WUSHU and selling it as Korean tradition. When you see the material practiced as a MA rather than as a gymnastic its plain that its holds its own as a combat style (see: Cannonfist). FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  13. coc716

    coc716 Just Some Guy

    See, that's my point. All the history revision. And if he's going to lie about this, what else is he going to lie about? Especially in his own textbooks, as they get revised so does the history. Go figure. :bang:

    Given what we see before us, both in Kuk Sool itself and the wider development of Korean arts in the 1950's, I don't think one can plausably deny Suh studying with Choi somehow in some way... there's influence and knowledge there. But, here we are, with modern day denials. *shrug*

    I cut the Koreans a bit of slack here, given the cultural genocide that went on during the Japanese occupation of the first half of the 20th century. I can't blame them for wanting to reestablish their culture and if some get rather anti-Japanese. But on the same token, creating fantasy and trying to pass it off as reality.... well... in the end that's just lying.

    Not to get off topic, but what's the story here then? More to it than what Bob lays out? I didn't want to dredge it up another set of crud, merely wanted to point out that there appears to be much revisionist history going on and much behavior towards "what benefits me" while going on about how "my art is more most ancienter-est than your art, and thus more t3h d3adli3r".
     
  14. coc716

    coc716 Just Some Guy

    There are many reasons for why people study Kuk Sool (or any martial art), but your angle seems to be "the art touts itself as authentic Korean history/art, but it's not, so why study it". With that as the angle, then what it seems to require is that someone cares if the art they study is authentic Korean history/art. If you don't care at all about the history aspects, then what does it matter? Can't someone want to study it for reasons other than history or authenticity? Are you saying there's no point, purpose, or good reason for someone to want to study WUSHU?

    Regardless of the art one studies, there is primarily one direction in which the elbow doesn't bend. Thus if the arm bar is learned in Kuk Sool or Hapkido or Kenpo or Kali or BJJ or wrestling or just because you were playing with your brother and learned the hard way.... what does it matter? Arm bar is an arm bar is an arm bar. If I learn it from a historically accurate source or a historically inaccurate source, how does that affect the mechanics of the arm bar and how I apply it? IMHO, it doesn't.

    One thing Kuk Sool offers is a well-constructed curriculum, and a standardized and global schooling. That's a really cool benefit of WKSA, because if life gets in the way of study and you happen to relocate to a place that has another WKSA school, you can walk right in and (theoretically) pick up where you left off; and frankly, the larger and more widespread WKSA is, the better and more effective this benefit is (theoretically). Normally you may get so far in studying, have to move, then have to start all over again. That can be frustrating for many people.

    Plus the material offered in the curriculum is vast and has much appeal to many people. Thus, if you stripped away all the Korean trappings about Kuk Sool and just presented it as learning a bunch of movements, a bunch of traps, sweeps, locks, throws, strikes, breakfalls, and so on... does that make learning that curriculum any less valid? Point is, the history is one thing, the martial-stuff is another. They can be separated.


    I agree it's disingenuous to present something as one thing when it's really another. I've always had a beef with how Kuk Sool's history was presented. But in the end, I didn't care because I wasn't studying Kuk Sool to be a historian, I was studying it to learn how to fight (and left because I didn't learn that, amongst other reasons). Having proper lineage isn't going to help me keep my head from getting stomped into the pavement, unless I guess it allows me to know what ancestors to invoke and pray to for help. :hat:
     
  15. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    What does "ancient" have to do with it? I always thought that BAZOOKA-JITSU was "t3h d3adli3st" MA on the battlefield. :jester:

    Modern technology and knowledge USUALLY far outweigh ancient beliefs and methods (ancient WISDOM, of course, notwithstanding :cool:).
     
  16. coc716

    coc716 Just Some Guy

    Well, Bruce was talking history... thus the "ancient" reference.

    If you read my personal blog, you'll see I'm quite the proponent of modern technology and combatives. :woo:
     
  17. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Black book?

    They did a black book too? Mine is Navy blue...
     
  18. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    :topic: OFF-TOPIC :topic:

    Yeah, FWIW and IIRC, the very 1st KSW textbook (produced by In-Sun Seo) came with a black cover but had a limited run at the presses. For whatever reason, with the 2nd edition or 2nd printing or whatever you call it, a navy blue cover was used. Whether there were corrections or editorial changes made in the blue book IDK, as it was all in Korean and it's been many years since I've had the opportunity to look through either edition (black or blue cover). As we all know, the red cover (which is what I have access to now) has a limited amount of the pages translated into English.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2009
  19. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Very nice response; well said. And just to be sure we are clear, I want to reinforce your point that I was not challenging people as to WHY they would study KSW. You post did a very neat job of addressing this, and thanks to you for that.

    Rather, I made----and have made-- my point regarding how people would train in KSW as it is taught today, understanding full-well how it has been represented in the past. At the risk of making too fine a point of this, I want to be sure that folks understand that my issue is not with the art, but with how it has been marketed. Not only myself, but a goodly number of others have noted that there simply are no historic connections between KSW and historic Korean traditions of the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. There just aren't. However, every history I have read invokes or alludes to such connections.

    Now if SUH In Hyuk wants to make something up and identify it as the quintessential Korean martial art, thats OK with me--- honest! And if people are unconcerned and have no interest in Korean martial arts for there cultural or historic value I can accept that as well. Where I get testy is when people suggest that their practice has greater provenence than it really does (see: LEE Joo Bang; HWA RANG DO). In such cases if someone is too cheap or self-absorbed to go learn the authentic stuff, then they lose the right to market themselves as knowing the authentic material. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  20. Dragon2

    Dragon2 Valued Member

    I have some really old footage of KSW from Korea and the weapon Hyungs are different and the hyungs are the same with some added variations and of course when KCH was only five instead of six motions. The reason for the change was to become more simple and flowing. Also because of some Masters who are not longer with the Association change had to be added. I was told to always to remember the old ways and to practice the old ways. In the beginning all the Master's had their way of teaching because of GM IHS had taught them a certain way. It is like someone saying something to you in a whisper and telling you to pass it on. When it get to the 10 or 11 people it is not the same story or line was told to the first person. Right now KSN is trying to bring His KSW back to the original way that was taught in the beginning. Yes it is very Good to know your Roots. Some black belts are good at kicking, punching and techniques but are not good Teachers. There are good Teachers but are not good kickers etc, but they can break it down to help you do the material that you need to succeed.
     

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