RVD cracked!

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Canit, Jun 19, 2009.

  1. Decision Tree

    Decision Tree Valued Member

    Rubbish!

    Training in the Bujinkan does not make you more or less likely to be in a situation where you have to kill another human being. What are you on about?

    How do you know that killing is a nasty business? How do you know you have the balls to explain to a wife that you choked their husband to death? Again, what are you on about?

    Why would martial athletes be less likely to deal with something like that than someone who trains 30 mins away and wears black pjs instead of white ones?
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2009
  2. Hayseed

    Hayseed Thread Killer

    I don't really see what this has to do with ranking. Notice also that Morra wrote "unconciousness/death". I don't think anybody here, sport or otherwise, believes that killing someone is emotionally similar to going to the store. That being said, I'd like to think that if my opponent is leaving me no alternative than to kill him, then my condolences to his family. Maybe it sounds selfish, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm more important. The laws we have to prevent assault/robbery/etc. are commonly known and exist for the safety of both the potential victim, and the potential aggressor. Anyone that knowingly commits these crimes is willingly renouncing the protection such laws provide, and as far as I'm concerned, accepting full responsibility for whatever consequences result.

    I don't think you really need esoteric or spiritual guidance for that, IMO all you really need is the ability to rationalize effectively. I'd think that with the generalized negative view of MMA'ers, that they're always looking for a fight and could care less about respect or your feelings, they'd have an easier time rationalizing such a thing than TMA'ers who seem to value courtesy/respect/passivity as more important virtues to strive for.

    On Topic: I don't think RVD is a bad teacher/taijutsuka, tasteless/shameless maybe, but I've seen waaay worse. I've seen a couple of the RVD vids and they're not bad. Video learning is not something I recommend if you can avoid it. In the state I lived in until recently, there aren't any x-kan dojos so between class(10hrs round trip), I watched alot of videos and still do. However, my taijutsu, while it looked good, it was mostly ineffective because there are many subtleties that you can only really learn by practicing techniques with another person.
     
  3. Nutjob

    Nutjob Jimmy Tarbuck

    thats a pretty dorky comment, if i'd choked someone to death i think i'd be sitting in a cell while the police told the wife, or do you live somewhere where you kill someone and then drop round to the wife for a coffee and a "hey, i killed your husband" chat?

    Danny fletcher is that you?
     
  4. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    Exactly.

    See how ridiculous it sounds.

    People don't talk about killing because it is taboo and most aren't capable of doing so in the first place (as i mentioned earlier).

    Saying off the cuff you are capable of doing so is just extreme ignorance.


    But in saying that a very small minority can and do and they don't talk about it.
     
  5. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Dam it Nutjob!

    That's one coffee and a keyboard you owe me now :D

    LMAO
     
  6. Decision Tree

    Decision Tree Valued Member

    I'm lost. It's gonna take something special to help me find my way again after that.
     
  7. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Hold on folks looks like Ace is trying to be clever again.....let us just make sure we don't drown due to how deep he is!

    Go on Ace tell em how deep you are
     
  8. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Oh dear... come on Ace of Clubs, how many people involved in non-competitive martial arts have to face the kind of thing you discuss?

    I would suggest it's only going to be the tiny minority that are active soldiers and in which case I think hand to hand executions are very unlikely to be something they face regularly.

    As for choking someone to death for 5 minutes, I can see absolutely no reason why you would need to do that unless you actually wanted to commit murder. If you choke someone properly they will go unconscious long before they die and once someone is unconscious they aren't typically a threat to you. I can think of no self defence scenario wherein you would be justified in continuing to choke someone as they lay unconscious. So your hypothetical is just insane.

    Also suggesting that martial arts spiritual aspect is to enable for people to become merciless killers is just silly. It's not feudal era Japan. If your martial art is teaching you how to look into the eyes of the children whose father you have murdered then I think fantasy is a big part of your martial art.
     
  9. llong

    llong Valued Member

    Good distinction, and I agree.
     
  10. Nutjob

    Nutjob Jimmy Tarbuck

    Its amazing how its gone from RVD to choking in a few pages....
     
  11. Labianca

    Labianca Moving On

    Hey I tried the lemongrass and tabi approach. Apparently, choking was more popular... *shrug*
     
  12. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    My brain hurts.
     
  13. Hissatsu

    Hissatsu End of the Road: Moved On

    I see where you are coming from as well - and it is right more often than it is wrong...

    But in my last sub-grappling tourney - the guy who won did so by basically avoiding any attempt to take him down for the first two rounds (refused to engage) - then it moved to sudden death (first takedown wins) - and he has a devastatingly fast and effective single/double.

    TaDa. Winner.

    ... And he never spent a more than 3 seconds on the ground - but won a submission grappling tourney.

    Personally - I like the ranking system of BJJ more than the BJK - but I don't run the org...

    But - to be fair - we are starting to see the decline of the BJJ standard already. I expect there will be similiar conversations in about 10 years to what you are seeing here... Oh - and someday there has to be something done about the crazy-ridiculous sandbagging that goes on at BJJ tourneys.

    -Daniel
     
  14. Labianca

    Labianca Moving On

    Ask a silly question...

    So I'm going to ask a silly question in regards to the whole rank subdiscussion that's developed here and see what people think of it..

    To whose standard are you comparing someone's skill when stating that rank is not appropriate?

    Now you may say "well the standard of all that is good and right." and "well I don't feel a black belt should be this or that". That's well and good, but it's your standard based on your experiences. (Using your in the personal sense and pertaining to any individual poster that's furthered the bogus rank discussion).

    Let's ask another set of questions: Are the people who you're questioning specifically your students? Are you a shidoshi qualified to question things? Do you have someone specific in mind? Is it fair to paint broad brush strokes with no specific qualification and insult people?

    In my opinion, each student has the responsibility to quality assure their own training along these lines:

    1. What do I want out of training?
    2. What do I need out of training to handle the demands of my life?
    3. Have I looked at all of the available training options and done my due diligence to qualify whatever methods, dojo, or instructors are training me to meet the goals stated in points one and two?
    4. Am I willing to devote resources in terms of budget, time and personal commitment into the training such that I can develop the ties needed to succeed given the above three points?

    If all of the above are known and the student is dedicated then the training is a success and regardless of anyone's opinion but the student and the instructor, the black belt or any given rank before or after is valid to the people that matter.

    I think this is an important concept for many reasons, not the least being that the needs of a MMA fighter are different from the needs of a Law Enforcement officer, and again those needs are different from the needs of a Military officer and those of say, a tenured History professor.

    This is why rank is a very personal thing and why no matter how hard any of us tries to discuss their opinion about rank, it's a useless discussion. Just train and be true to your goals.

    (cause frankly my opinion is that there's a difference between rank and combat competency. If I go to a dojo after doing my due diligence to the quality of instructor and tell them that I'm a bouncer that's going to be getting into situations regularly, I expect to be told that the best option is private lessons supplementing regular class work.. but then again, bouncers are not the majority. - I digress)
     
  15. Morra

    Morra Valued Member

    Great question. Personally, regardless of the art, once you get past the first black belt and start talking 3rd Dan or... funnily 15th Dan, you should be more critical and might even start to question the entire ranking system.

    In the BJK, belts are awarded for "potential" skill, so that causes some confusion and actually de-values the belts. I simply take it that belts don't mean much in that particular organization.

    Same with 10 year old TKD black belts. If you join such an organization, you simply can't worry about the ranking too much. The negative side is, it's harder to know who to trust to teach you. That would be my big red flag. Of course, that's not a deal breaker, but I think it hurts the art, whether ninjutsu or TKD or whatever, because people think if you have a black belt, you should be good - and that's not always the case. Buyer beware.

    If you know absolutely nothing, and have no experience in MA, it's very difficult, and you have to educate yourself and learn to recognize what a bad teacher or dojo/ mcdojo is.

    If you have good experience in one art, you should be able to recognize if someone is garbage in another art. There's a balanced "centeredness"in the movements of good MA teachers that is very recognizable to the trained eye, with crisp and flowing movements regardless of the art: boxing, TKD, BJJ: they all have it. Now, just because they're good doesn't mean they can teach what they do to you, but you need them to be good to start with or it's a dead issue.

    Very cerebral, but in practice, you might follow these guidlines and end up in an art you simply don't have FUN with. You have to enjoy what you're doing, and that means trying many different things.

    I'd also suggest if you really hate something you try, ask objectively "why"? Is it bad teaching or are you just uncomfortable being under someone in a grappling situation, or afraid of being hit, or some other discomfort/ fear. Maybe that's an opportunity to grow.

    Sounds like trying to create a little insulated world where an art gets stuck because it is never challenged, and thereby its practitioners get stuck, not knowing what's beyond their little art and their rankings, which, when you step out onto the street, might be worthless. Guys train for 20 or 30 years in one art, get their butts kicked in 20 seconds by a different martial artist... so what do they do? Quit? Or make excuses? The latter 99.9%. It happens all the time, and I don't think it's healthy. The style and the rank have to relate to reality outside the dojo. What, you have a blackbelt who gets destroyed by a whitebelt in less than 1 minute, and that's OK?

    When giving a seminar, John Will and some of the Machados, line everyone up and tell them they can do whatever they want - kick, punch, eye gouge, groin grab, whatever. Then John Will (or the Machados) beat every guy within 20 seconds. They've never lost. After beating everyone, then they say, "Now, you're going to do what I tell you without asking me a million questions." (It's OK to ask questions, but not during the demos, you know, "Yeah, but what if he does a knee, or what if he turns like this." No, you shut up becuase you just got your ass kicked in 20 seconds.

    Now, many of these guys who are defeated have been doing martial arts for 20 years and have high level black belts. Only one guy out of the hundreds that John Will defeated took off his black belt, threw it in the garbage, and donned a white belt.

    That's REAL rank.

    If you can't make your stuff work, what does your rank mean? You go out, get tested, verify what you've learned, or admit you don't really know anything.

    There sure is! But how do you find out if there's a difference if you never challenge anyone from a different style? You have to test yourself. I don't see the downside, someone is going to learn something (it's not out of hatred, it's out of respect... if you can look in the mirror and admit it.)
     
  16. llong

    llong Valued Member

    On topic, I think people's first choice should be to have a real life teacher, and only use videos if travelling to a teacher is impossible.
     
  17. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    A very big theme in the bujinkan is the interplay between real and fake. Without fakes, it's very difficult to learn to tell the difference. If the belt system was 100% accurate, there would be no medium in the organization for practicing and learning the difference between a good teacher or skilled martial artist, and a fake.
    Hatsumi sensei has said and written on several occasions that if you have a bad teacher, it's your fault. It's the student's responsibility to find a good teacher.
    Someone who is not interested in taking the easy way out and decieving himself will always be able to pick the real teachers out from the fakes with a little time. Bad students gather around bad teachers, and good ones don't settle for a fake.
    All this might sound a little cliche, but it's true. Most people in martial arts are either still searching, or have found exactly what they want, at heart.
     
  18. Morra

    Morra Valued Member

    Ridiculous.

    Can you imagine a university or any program of learning advertising that it employs bad teachers so that you have the opportunity to try to tell the difference?

    And furthermore, that if you do get one of our lemon teachers, it's YOUR fault.

    If I go to an international MA organization becasue the Grand Master is top notch, and he gives ranks to people to teach his art, I expect it to be of the highest quality. It's not some game to play with my money. I am not paying to learn about recognizing crappy MA teachers, I am paying to learn a martial art.

    Come to our hospital, you might get a real surgeon or a butcher- I know you're paying for an operation and not to learn how to recognize good doctors, but too bad, this is how we do it at Hat (soon you will) Sue Me Hospital. Pay in advance, and within 2 days you can be a doctor too!

    Un. Be. Lievable....

    Why do you guys tolerate such utter none sense?
     
  19. Hayseed

    Hayseed Thread Killer

    No they really don't. I know it's easy to get the impression that people in the BJK run around chasing all the rank they can get, especially with the Dan rankings going up to 15th, but I've never really found this to be the case. Do we want to improve? Sure. Do we want recognition for our efforts? Of course. The truth of the matter is though, most don't ask for rank.

    While we're on the subject, what's really so silly about 15 Dan ranks? Because everyone else just goes to 10? So. Was there some kind of highly secretive scientific test that yeilded the result that the "proper" number of Dan rankings is 10? We do alot of things other arts don't do, if we were all the same, I probably wouldn't study MA.

    QFT

    This kind of introspective thinking IMO, is critical to being a good student.

    There's always that possibility

    I agree, I think it's incredibly counterproductive to the learning process to "switch off" like that. This goes back to being a good student, not "good" as in "respectful/pays attention to teacher/etc.", a "good student" as in one studying budo with sincerity and objectivity, who doesn't hide in the basement from reality.

    If you study ANY MA for 30 years, being a "good student of budo", that shoudn't happen.

    Effective. I probably would just ask that everyone hold their questions 'till we're done. If someone needs me to "conquer" them before they will pay attention, then I guess they just don't learn then. I'm a firm believer in taking responsibility for your own training. Still, sound like a fun way to start out a seminar!

    Good for him.

    You seem to subscribe to an idea I have trouble with. Could you give me an example of a technique that you've been taught that turned out later to "not work in reality". I would think that somewhere during the course of your training, you would have these techniques done to you, couldn't they have been judged there? I mean no offense, honestly.

    We don't put alot of value in ranks with regard to others.
     
  20. Morra

    Morra Valued Member

    Not sure where you got the impression I was saying you guys chase rank. I only said it is awarded for potential, not always your true current level (especially with students who come overseas, train, and have to leave).

    Ask "why" Hatsumi changed it from 10 to 15. It's not a happy answer.

    It's not a question of one or two techniques that didn't work. There's no need to drop a whole system because of a crappy technique. What I discovered (yes, the hard way) was that it was very difficult to prevent someone bigger than me from grappling/ going to the ground if they wanted to, vs my striking focussed game. So, I moved into grappling and quit the striking system I had spent 5 + years studying.
     

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