I was curious if Aikido deals a lot with multiple attacks? I have seen demonstrations where an opponent throws one-punch or kick. I have seen demonstrations with multiple attackers, but not with one attacker throwing multiple strikes. If -Shachar
At the instant of musubi (contact) when the first strike is avoided/cut aside an atemi MUST be made to pre-empt or engage the other hand/side to disallow a second attack. An example below.
The answer is: eventually. Aikido starts with pretty lame attacks (that is, mostly grabs) until you're comfortable with them. That way, no one gets hurt and you get to learn stuff. Single strikes are harder to deal with, but eventually they become second nature. Getting better at dealing with strikes will improve how you deal with grabs, just as dealing getting better at dealing with grabs improves how you deal with strikes. Multiple strikes and multiple attackers are a progression. That sort of practice can improve how you deal with single strikes and single attackers. As for koyo's response (which I don't think answered the question): there are very few MUST's in aikido. I have trained with Shihan that will not always atemi at that point. There are always multiple options, aikido depends on too many dynamic variables.
It is hard to see concepts such as timing in a demonstration. The idea behind the uke (attacker) is to provide a "committed" attack on tori (defender). In this manner, tori can apply technique in training and demonstration. Koyo can explain this better than me and correct me where I am off, but there are three options: 1. Evade the attack 2. Evade and at the same time counter the attack by attacking back (e.g. atemi and follow-up attack) 3. Attack first when uke is "thinking" about attack but before uke can attack. You don't see a lot of multiple attacks from the same uke in Aikido because it is harder to learn techniques at first when you are primarily only concerned about evading because you are being overwhelmed by attacks. It is a progression in learning like how ninjapacificity described it. The times in Aikido, in my experience, other than cross-training such as training with boxers and karateka, that multiple strikes are practiced is with weapons work. Mostly I saw it in tanto (knife) work. The uke would use multiple cuts and short slashes and stabs. Tori (defender) would have to evade until there was a point where uke was open to counter. This was not easy to do. P.S. Outside of Aikido I learned to slap the other person in the side of the head if they were open while performing technique. This training can help with any martial training and works just as well when applied to Aikido training when it is agreed upon to do so with a partner.
That's an important point! And you'll never see it in a demo, because that's not the point of a demo. Aikido can be a lot of fun when partners are 'pointing' out openings - best to practice this with people you trust (and even then I'm sitting here with some superficial bruises that are in their 4th day). It seems most appropriate when people know the technique well and need to refine it, not when they're still learning the footwork and hand movements for a technique. Also, don't go slapping people that are throwing you, unless you can receive the technique well. You are giving them permission to use an 'applied' form of a technique, which often ends up much shorter and sharper.
Yes, agreed. Use slapping with discretion. Always protect yourself and as uke you also are allowing tori to apply technique at times so they can learn it. When I do slap, it isn't to let tori know they are open (although that is what I tell them), it is with the intention of temporarily countering the technique. For instance, during a setup to a throw by tori/nage, if they have not unbalanced me first, I will slap to unbalance them, this lets them know I'm not properly unbalanced and I can counter. I have different slapping points to counter depending on what they leave open. If they forget to atemi with the hip into me with a hip throw, for instance, I might slap them in the hip to counter their throw.
I stand by the statement atemi MUST be used when facing multiple attack.We have many cross trainers in the Makotokai and they MUST be unbalanced in an instant or the second/third attack shall follow.The differing application of technique depends on the attack.MULTIPLE attack is best met or pre-empted in the manner I described. You need only to ask someone skilled in any of the striking arts to attack you freely using multiple strikes to test his. In a practical situation atemi is 90% of aikido (O Sensei Ueshiba) I would consider multiple attacks as a practical situation. regards koyo
Hi Koyo. Thank you for a well explained answer. The part I agree with is that you MUST break the uke's balance - or things get too dangerous and mucky. I will frequently use an atemi, but if you can break uke's balance without an atemi then that is still valid, safe, and can be martially effective. I consider that using an atemi is a sensible suggestion, rather than a universal requirement. Pretty minor point, so I'll be happy if we agree to disagree
Hi ninja My own training has been with many of the original shihan most of whom were cross trainers mainly judo and kendo. So much of the emphasis has changed. All of the wrist holds were understood as EXERCISES in body alignment and kuzushi and all included an atemi to ensure that you alignment was correct. My main reason for posting on MAP is to correct (as I see it) an imbalance in the presentation of aikido resulting in many questioning the martial efficiency of the art. Therefor I may come over as rather forcefull in my posts. As always I am simply offering my opinion and would not wish to imply it is the only way. An unlimited responce is a principle all of the shihan I have trained under advocated. Best wishes in your training. regards koyo
Hi Vimto for blood You should be trained in atemi therefor capable of blocking or thusting them aside. This distraction allows tori to apply the technique. Atemi to the head is mostly open handed and will amout to a solid slap if you do not cover it. In freestyle training we use counters rather than atemi alone. However the counters will have atemi in them mostly blows to the ribs or chest relatively solid and never to vital points. regards koyo
Indeed, it makes perfect sense too. How does uke protect themselves when receiving atemi during freestyle practice? Sorry if this comes across as a silly question.
If you look at the photo in post 2 you will see BIG Paul defending against my atemi.It unbalances him and pre-empts any further strikes. regards koyo
How one protects themselves really depends on how badly they get "caught" by atemi. If you are caught really badly, you only have the choice of going with the technique and covering up to protect vitals. It is too late to block and too late to counter. Some background info: In freestyle practice there is no uke and tori, either can be both. What you do have is the concept of good ukemi. This comes down to training in how one accepts attacks. For instance, 1. For more of my Aikido training, I was taught how to evade atemi by basically going with the technique... if a palm came to my face, I would move my head away, even do a sliding breakfall if necessary. 2. For most of my karate training I was taught to block/redirect the atemi and damage the attacking arm. 3. For most of my boxing training I was taught to parry and slip the atemi. 4. For most of my kenpo karate training, I was taught to intercept the atemi with an immediate counter attack. 5. In MMA, boxing, Muay Thai, etc. there was also clinching, or grabbing on to the attacker to neutralize their delivery system for atemi. 6. And then there is always just getting hit but covering up vitals to protect yourself. Letting the attacker hurt themselves by hitting your elbows or other hard target. I used this a lot in Muay Thai and boxing. The above differences are artificial of course... in most cases what you will have is some combination of the above depending on experience, intentions, previous training and context. So basically, you can try all of the above, but if the atemi is good, you only have #1 (roll with the blow) and #6 (cover up and protect vitals) as options. If the atemi is not so good, you have all the other options. What I see most people do is try to block attacks or clinch if given the opportunity.
After wearing a few hits you basically just learn to guard. I spar freestyle against kensei quite regularly - he has about 20kg on me, can throw and mean punch and isnt afraid of hitting me with them. If i'm entering it's as simple as keeping a high or low guard - while one hand attacks or parries, the other is kept up, elbow tucked and covering either the face or ribs, usually at a 45 degree angle to your own body. The great thing about this is that uke gets used to not leaving openings, and tori gets good striking practise - he can still 'cut through' uke and unbalance him, but with the benefit of actually striking something and getting used to making contact. Maybe I'll get a video recording of the two of us butting heads so you can see what I mean
+1 on the guard. Once you get hit, you generally don't make the same mistake and keep the guard up. Regarding hitting another, remember two people are training. Free sparring is a great way to stop practicing kata and start practicing waza. It is important to start practicing sincerity too. As long as you are emotionally unattached, it's alright to hit someone in practice. Bring malicious intent and ego into it, and it's no longer acceptable. If you are talking about protecting yourself from full on hits, grappling gloves and head protecting is a good way to go. They do have their limitations though, and may make you reliant on them. At my school, all the martial arts that are offered have a high emphasis on self-defense and also reflex development. Usually we train with no protection, although I am seriously considering the groin guard as I feel that is required and also less of an issue. In protecting yourself while striking, while you are asked to be honest, you are also asked to be considerate. For example, I'm not going to hit to the spine, kidneys, or testicles, and if given the opportunity, I will mimic a severe elbow or knee to the face, but not carry out fully. Also, as usual, to respect the tap. Full force blows to other body areas are fine. In modern day society, we find it hard to justify hurting people because for the most part, none of us are actually fighting a war. We train in martial arts as a way of developing oneself, to bring out our potential. We train as realistically as we can without making us invalids for the rest of our lives, hindering our abilities to function properly in a occupational or social capacity. Ask anyone who is a respectable martial artist and see if they like living with a missing eye, crushed testicle or broken joints and necks. Don't think you'll find anyone happy with that.
Actually it's thirty if you are 65 kgs, but thanks for giving everyone else the impression that I'm more svelte than I really am lol Best memory was blasting each other back with the same punch done and connecting simultaneously. That's committment! For those that want to see, we'll do a session tomorrow morning (14 hours time) and post it up on the following night.
This is sort of what lead me to asking the question. We don't see an awful lot of ukes wearing protective gear. Which either means they're all getting incredibly biffed up or the atemi isn't causing much harm. (And I'm not saying that it should - I can see in Koyo's example that atemi might be used as a distractor or a way of preventing a follow up attack from uke). Are there definitely no occasions where atemi is not used? By atemi I mean an additional strike to uke not including the meet (like in Koyo's picture). What about ryote mochi? What about the situation where uke is coming towards you and you throw them in the same direction with a kokyunage throw? By applying atemi will this not reduce uke's momentum in the direction you want to throw uke?
