SKH Quest & Hatsumi's Bujinkan

This is quite funny, the Diary was hardly more than a small insight into Hatsumi sensei's thinking about writing books with a couple of small insights into how he feels about how Mr Hayes has acted.As I said you can take it as fact or not as I won't post who it was written by as he does not post here and is not interested in this sort of debate so I will not drag his name into it. But as the dairy states there were many many witnesses to this exchange <<< this is important

>>>>>The FUNNY thing is that YOU have not once questioned the information about Soke's Certificate of Sokeship that I posted, that is very relevant fact concerning this thread and is evidence of the fact of how and why Takamatsu sensei & Hatsumi sensei ended up as Soke of that Ryu. I never posted any proof of this statement either Garth now did I ? You never questioned me about this at all garth ? (because you know it is true as you know everything else is true but somethings are easier for you to throw your smoke and mirror show over and this is not one of them) and your more interested in questioning the diary because it looks bad for Mr Hayes and is a much less slippery fish for you to cast your net of doubt about because I won't post the name of a Bujinkan member whom you would NOT know even if I did post his name . DIA JODAN DIA JODAN.

OH , Really ! you call a private conversation YOU had with a 5th dan of the Genbukan as stand up in court evidence do you . So <<<<<<< there were many witnesses to this and the content of this conversation as there were to the diary that was a record of a public class held at the hombu in Oct 2004 ?

A bit like Garth questioning my integrity several times in this thread and that of other Bujinkan members recalling what they have seen and heard in Japan for years that are miles and miles apart from what Mr Hayes is saying in public for years .

:love:

 

Fire and steel posted

But if you cannot give us names of the writer or witnesses it is not fact. As you yourself have said

and indeed the same applies to your evidence, except at least I supply a name. A name very well known in the Genbukan.

It doesnt matter if there were a million witnesses to this. If none of them come forward it is not proof.

And there is a very real reason I have not done so. Based on the fact that if I started to question the authenticity of the certificates that Hatsumi has then I would be accused by some to be derailing the thread away from its point.

As Grimjack has stated, when I appear in his opinion to be wrong, my strategy is to attack the Bujinkan. So it made sense to me that I not do so.

Can you see the catch twenty two I find myself in. If I

Question Dr Hatsumis certificates and I am derailing the thread to draw the argument away from the subject of Mr Hayes by again attacking the Bujinkan.

But conversly if I do not question Dr Hatsumi's certificates I am open to the suggestion that I dare not reply as I do not know what I am talking about in regard to the certificates.

Gary Arthur

 

That is not the point. You can't question the certificate because I know it is correct as do 100's of other people (and I may be wrong) but I think it is also shown in the Takamatsu DVD. So you would be very silly to question it indeed. Considering though that you DID question and try to compare Mr Hayes use of KSR to Takamatsu sensei doing a similar thing that is incorrect that was the reason I posted that info because Takamatsu WAS a SHIHAN in that Ryu and Hatsumi sensei inherited the ryu via a legit manner.
HOWEVER you did not question MY posting of this information, where I got it from or ask ME to back up MY claim to this info did you and as you don't afaik speak or read Japanese even if you saw it on a DVD or in person as I have you would not know if the info I provided was correct or not ! So I then find it very strange that you go on to then question a by anyones standard a much lesser piece of info provided by me in the very same post ?

Yes Garth we all see the catch 22 your in you are trying to protect your teacher & your style and I must say you are doing a good old British bulldog job of it however it is very sad that your teacher is putting you in the position to have to do this.I can tell you the reasons I can come by the information I can is that I am a respected member of the Bujinkan who's integrity and honesty is in no doubt so I am able to ask very long term students who DO know the facts and have lived their whole lives in Japan or for many many years in Japan about matters that are not common knowledge. None of those things have I posted here as I am not in a position to do so nor would I want to .
Most things here are public knowledge or at least known by the Shidoshi and all the quotes from Hatsumi sensei that have been posted here are exactly what was said By Hatsumi. See despite what is going on here Only Soke & Mr Hayes know the exact position between them and Mr Hayes seems to be in denial and no matter what is said in public here the truth remains the truth and far to many people are telling me the same stories for it to be some big conspiracy against Mr Hayes .While only Mr Hayes is telling you they are internet rumors etc. Now the problem lay in the fact that I believe what my teachers are saying and you believe what your Teacher is saying and there are grey areas that none of us know about.
Some other things I know as fact because I have seen read or been present when these events were spoken about by very senior people who were there. Now I will tell you where this skepticism of what Mr Hayes says publicly comes from with the Bujinkan community. In some of Mr Hayes very earliest public words he said " As I walk through the cobbled streets of Noda " Garth the streets of Noda are not Cobbled nor have they ever been Cobbled . Artistic license you might say when writing a book, well sure I can live with that ! but it shows from some of his earliest writings his desire to be more theatrical and his use of artistic license when writing as a student of a serious subject !

 

Fire and steel posted

Can you put the link where I questioned Dr Hatsumis certificates?

Try my source the Kukishinden Zukan. I pointed out that both Mr Hayes and Takamatsu had upgraded a style they had previously learnt

I did not state whether either were qualified to do so.

And Mr Hayes is/was a Shihan in Bujinkan which teaches Kukishinden Ryu. That of course does not mean that Mr Hayes has the right to start start another branch of Kukishinden Ryu, but then i don't believe he is trying to do that. Purely say that the ryu he taught in his bojutsu DVDs is a Kukishinden Ryu.

Did I say that he didn't?

If Takamatsu made up his own school based on what he had learnt i.e Kukishinden Ryu to Takamatsu's Kukishinden Chosui Ryu, and it was handed to Hatsumi then Hatsumi has inherited it in a legit manner.

I think it was you that pointed out that Hatsumi said that he had not inherited the ryu.

Why thank you. My evidence must be good.

My teacher is doing no such thing. It is my decision to be here on the forums.

But this whole point is irrelevant. Without names it means nothing.

As Bertram Russell suggested. There could be a tea pot orbiting the earth. I could believe in it with total conviction. But my conviction does not make it true. Indeed it is something of an insult to the very truth I hold dear, to say it is true just because I believe it is.

So for your statement to be taken as true it needs proof. Not hearsay from a document without provinence.

Really are you sure about that. I'll get back to that point i'm sure at a latter date.

EXACTLY. And all the rest is rumour and reading things into how things appear to that person.

As Dr Who said. Just because it looks like a foot print it doesn't mean it was made with a boot.

Wait a minute you have just contradicted yourself.

You said only Mr Hayes and Dr Hatsumi knew what was going on, yet you have now said that other people are telling you the same stories for it to be some big conspiracy against Mr Hayes.

So that implies that other people know the exact position between them. So one of your statements must be wrong, for if only Dr Hatsumi and Mr Hayes know whats going on, stories by other people could be wrong.

Its all rumour until an official statement is made. And there is a danger about listening to rumour. Remember that rumour about Mr Hayes not receiving certificates from Dr Hatsumi on this very thread. Unfortunately its kind of been disproved. Although now people are saying that Mr Hayes receives them, despite his actions, so as not to stop his Bujinkan members pprogressing as it would not be fair on them.

A convenient way of getting away from tha fact that the original rumour was wrong.

Yes I can agree somewhat with that.

But if someone tells you something its not primary evidence. Just think about this. Joe bloggs hears Dr Hatsumi tell him a story. Already secondary evidence. Joe Bloggs tells you. Tertiary evidence. And then you put it on the forums. Its gone through four people to find its way here. And without sources that can be checked.

See the problem with this kind of evidence. Its not evidence. You have spoken about court evidence as in you previous post

No its not. Its hearsay just like yours.

So in 1975 the streets of Noda were not cobbled and have never been. Are you sure. Have you checked with the planning department. Now OK I sound pedantic. But I bet in the past most Japanese streets were cobbled. So to say it was never cobbled is a bit of a big leap.

Its like saying that you know the pavement arrangement of every street in Noda from year dot.

Also could I have the source of the quote.

Gary Arthur

 

Garth, do you have permission of SKH to act as his spokesman?

 

Peter G posted

In conversations with Mr Hayes he is quite happy with what I post here.

Gary Arthur

 

Then I, for one -- and speaking solely for myself -- pity him.

 

if it was me, Norm would have told me to shut up a long time ago to save his embarrasment.

 

Dale Seago posted

I wonder how many Bujinkan people on here believe they are acting as spokesmen for Dr Hatsumi. In the past we have seen actions by Bujinkan members in the way of, squabbles between members of the Bujinkan, foul language, rampant rumours that have been proved wrong, and the derision of character by Bujinkan member on Bujinkan members.

I think its Dr Hatsumi that needs the pity.

Gary Arthur

 

Does that mean we can organize a "pity" party. I'll call to arrange for a Waaaambulance to be standing by.

 

but then maybe that is because there are varied view in the bujinkan, does Steve allow you to have varied views with your colleagues or is it what he say goes??

 

No one that I've seen so far, myself included. The closest thing to that would be the Hombu Administrator's comments quoted earlier in the thread along with his admonition that (paraphrasing) people are welcome to think of Soke's action as a hamon if they wish. (Technically, of course, a hamon would constitute a formal expulsion from a specific martial ryu, which the Bujinkan is not.)

In Japanese culture, by the way, the way to deliver a grave reprimand to someone is to "single him/her out" or draw attention to him/her in a way that indicates he or she is not "part of the group".

 

something like removing a plaque while lots of people were watching??

 

Including one of my own students, as it happens. . .

Or shutting a car door in someone's face when he or she tries to enter the vehicle, or having senior Japanese shihan tell people that folks who train with you are "not welcome in the Bujinkan'". Things like that.

Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin.

 

right, thats what i thought you meant, just needed you to put it on here again for clarification!!!

 

Dale Seago

Strange that there seems to be a lot of people tryng to tell us what Dr Hatsumi thinks.

Keikai posted

Oh absolutely, there are no doubt varied views with our organisation, its just that we don't, like the Genbukan and Jinenkan people get on the forums and slag each other off. Why is it the Bujinkan people are so much into doing that?

As for the question about control by Mr Hayes and is it what what he says goes. My answer to that is that although there is a sylabus in place Mr Hayes seems to very much want people to do their own thing, and take just deserve for their own achievements. From Mr Hayes' web site

In fact back in 2004 when I visited the Hombu Dayton Dojo I was mentioning that I had trained with Hatsumi Sensei and Tanemura Sensei. He then asked if I had trained with Manaka Sensei. "No" I exclaimed. "Oh" said Mr Hayes "Then if you get the opportunity you should go and train with him".

How refreshing. I wonder how many other organisations would say that, especially in Ninjutsu.

Gary Arthur

 

Well Garth has never let the facts get in the way of a poor but long drawn out rebuttal ! He is a master of quoting out of context , jumping to conclusions , twisting facts to his own agenda, and making vague distracting statements in the guise of questions about things he knows nothing about , making sure to leave a loop hole when he is challenged.You insult peoples intelligence with every post.
I have NOT seen anywhere in this entire thread garth where you have provided one shred of hard evidence about anything of value about how you claim things are .
You certainly need to go learn something about Japanese culture as you wear your ignorance like some sort of badge of honor you might start with learning what the title of Shihan means and when and by whom that title is used as it is in not way related to rank !

 

because the buj is bigger and its a well known fact that as orgs get bigger more people voice opinions, but then the TSD are so small they only have you and one or two others to stand up for them, even Hayes uses his site to try to squash rumours in his org.

well its like me, i am only a shodan so i tell my guys to go out with as many teachers as possible, probably like Steve really, we are both inexperienced in the Buj so we promote training with other teachers.

 

Dale Seago posted

You've been listening to rumours again. I would have thought that a fifteenth dan would have known about the danger of rumours.

Ninjutsu is the art of intelligence gathering, not rumour gathering.

Strange certificates are still being given out to these people that are not welcome in the Bujinkan then.

Gary Arthur

 

You are just a joke gary. That is because Hatsumi sensei has publicly told MANY people what he thinks and many people here other than you knows how the Japanese culture works .