Women's self defense classes

[Metal_Kitty]

Has anyone ever attended/seen a women's self defense class? I'm really curious as to how it would differ from the type of MA classes we're used to seeing. I'm guess there was obvious be an emphasis on 'dirty' tactics such as eye gouges, groin kicks, etc. What other tactics do they teach? And how do they train? Full contact and with resistence?

My main question is, do you think women's SD classes are more or less beneficial for women than a full contact, mixed gender martial art such as krav maga, muay thai, mma, or some form of jujutsu? Do you think women's self defense should be taught separately?

Personally, I think women would benifit more from training with males and in a tough full-contact style.

[Moi]

No difference than men training. Achieve what they can for their weight and hope for tge best. Full contact sport all the way. Probably BJJ is more important than a striking art for women but good all round skill trained in a realistic manner

[Fish Of Doom]

from what i've seen publicized of women's SD, i THINK it generally sucks ass in a major manner. if a woman wants to be able to defend herself, she's far better off (as is anyone, really) learning about self-protection and investing in the long run to learn to actually fight.

in a real altercation, training is secondary to what you actually go and do. telling someone "oh, you just rip his balls out" will do jack squat if the person in question doesn't have the mindset to go and grab the guys balls and pull back sharply. hell, even learning to punch another person in a controlled environment takes some time to get used to for some people. some are naturals, some need to be helped along until they develop it, but all the training in the world won't help you defend yourself unless you're mentally ready to hurt another person, possibly badly. full contact fighting and combat sports which involve it are among the best tools to develop that, along with scenario training if you're aiming specifically towards SD.

[Fish Of Doom]

also, i second what moi said. by training women differently from the men you just handicap them, leading to a lot of these funky super-lethal women's SD classes.

i mean, you don't see SD classes for short men, do you?...

...bloody hell, i'd make a fortune!

[Hannibal]

Realistically you need to cover off environmental awareness in a WSD class because there is not a lot else you CAN teach.

I teach Awareness and Avoidance and have a paradigm that I teach to help them with any physically based encounters. TBH though you have to stress to them the importance of sustained training and putting what they learn into practice.

Can you learn ANYTHING form these courses? Yes you can - but not to any real level of competency. They are are more of a "heads up" for me with advice on where I teach. If they are serious they will take up their training in earnest.

Tragically very, very few actually do

[Rebel Wado]

Has anyone ever attended/seen a women's self defense class? I'm really curious as to how it would differ from the type of MA classes we're used to seeing. I'm guess there was obvious be an emphasis on 'dirty' tactics such as eye gouges, groin kicks, etc. What other tactics do they teach? And how do they train? Full contact and with resistence?

Martial arts classes tend to focus on a good workout and build skill sets.

Self-defense classes tend focus more on aggression and awareness. Less on actual skill. More and more common these days is having a person padded up (e.g. redman suit) and almost anything goes just fighting him off.

My main question is, do you think women's SD classes are more or less beneficial for women than a full contact, mixed gender martial art such as krav maga, muay thai, mma, or some form of jujutsu? Do you think women's self defense should be taught separately?

It depends, but self-defense classes probably are more beneficial for most because they can be life changing wake up calls. One woman I took to one self-defense training workshops that was a friend, told me years later that the class had changed her life and she wanted to tell me that.

Not quite as dramatic, but a few others have said basically the same to me over the years.

Conversely, if you look at people, say single out women just for the sake of argument, those that stay in full contact training such as Muay Thai or MMA, they really don't need martial arts. They already have a strong fighting spirit. So something like MMA is good for them, but it isn't necessary for them to survive.

The people that have been traumatized (call them damaged goods) come into martial arts a lot of the time to help them heal. So any martial art can work for them as long as it helps them in self-development and healing.

Those that come to self-defense training are kind of in between. They aren't completely damaged goods, but they also don't tend to have extremely strong fighting spirit. Self-defense works on awareness and unleashing their raw aggression in the face of aggression. It can show them a side of life they are not aware of. Hence, it can change their life...

This is independent from the benefits from formal martial arts training. A person can train both self-defense and martial arts. Why is there a need to do one and not the other?


Personally, I think women would benifit more from training with males and in a tough full-contact style.

You can state your opinion, but everyone is going to be different and have different needs. People seem to have short memories, probably about 15 years ago there was a female BJJ black belt that was brutally attacked and raped by a much larger man.

Maybe nothing would have helped her, but it isn't always a matter of what benefits someone the most, it can simply come down to what they lacking in and what they need to move on.

[tonyv107]

Training can only do so much. Not even a Black belt in BJJ will help when someone has a good 60-80 pound advantage. Sometimes I have to roll with people with many years of experience but the fact that I out weigh them so much let's me just muscle through some of the locks/chokes, etc that they try to use. I think self defense items coupled with MA training and awareness as stated above is the best course of action.

[Rebel Wado]

Thanks tony.

Here is a program that seems to outline some of the attitudes motivating women's self-defense courses:

http://modelmugging.org/choosing-a-course-for-women/martial-science/evolution-of-martial-science/

Incidentally, I feel it also supports the benefits of MMA or other full contact training venues for women as well as a strong argument for good ground fighting experience.

[Metal_Kitty]

Thanks for the brilliant article!!

[jwt]

I run self defence courses for women, but if they want classes they come to a mixed environment as I do not currently have time to run a regular single sex class.

I prefer to run my courses as single sex. Why? Because in a course you have a limited amount of time to try and convey as much useful information as possible. Going single sex allows me to focus on particular items and the predominant predator tactics against women differ from those against men. This means that both the theory and the physical package they receive is different.

Single sex courses can have great value to people who lack the ability to commit to a regular class. As with any form of education there is bound to be a tail off over time for memory and skill retention etc, which is why good courses focus more on awareness strategies and implanting ideas rather than teaching complex physical skills. Any fighting skills taught should use motor motions common to everyday activities.

Here's an example of a description of the framework of my courses:
http://www.d-a-r-t.org.uk/approaches/ladies-self-defence.html

I've also noticed the growing predominance of redman, and even bulletman. I'm not a fan of either of these as the person wearing them cannot move realistically which lessens the value of the exercise. Where possible I bring a team of people in armour in (generally High Gear or my own gear due to its greater mobility) and run a range of simulations. Of course what you can (and can't do) depends upon how much time you've been allowed.

With regular classes, for someone wanting self defence, picking a class is a double edged sword. How much information a woman needs (motivation, fear management, conflict management, adrenaline, predator tactics, safety strategies) will very much depend on her genetics, her upbringing, her education, and her environment. These are crucial parts of self defence so going to a martial arts class (even a good sporting full contact one) isn't so useful if she doesn't have this info. But, on the other hand, a regular self defence class that teaches all that info but doesn't let her practise her skills in a pressurised contact environment also has serious drawbacks.

In my opinion there is generally a lack of decent self protection training out there. As a result, unless a woman happens to be one of the few located near a good provider that addresses the issues above, I would say her best bet is to go to a good contact sport martial art (for example Thai boxing or MMA) and buy a couple of decent books to cover fear management, attacker strategies etc (for example Gavin de Becker, Dave Grossman, Bruce Siddle...). My only 'issues' with this option are:
1. Getting a more timid person into such a martial arts class may be difficult.
2. Such a class may not practice the most realistic (and thus useful) event simulations.
Ultimately however the most important thing is to have all the avoidance strategies in place.

While the benefits of training in a mixed sex class may seem obvious, there are (as suggested above) often drawbacks. Some students may have a past that has led them to fear physical contact with men - a mixed class could well put them off. Coupled with that you need to bear in mind that in self defence men predominantly need to train in male on male HAOV while women predominantly need to train in male on female HAOV.

[Lorelei]

I took a self-defence course (2 hours once a week for about 10 weeks) when I was at school - it wasn't just for females though. The course was run by a Shotokan instructor, and involved basic blocks, strikes and kicks for the most part, with a few examples of grappling and throwing. No idea if what I learned would work in a real situation - the course was over 20 years ago and I've never had to use any of it......

[righty]

It actually sounds like you are writing off womens self defence courses before really considering what sort of realistic role they have in womens self defence.

A lot of valid points have already been made, but the reality is, this being a martial arts forum, that you are preaching to the choir. So yes, training regularly in an art that has a higher level of contact and sparring for a decent period of time is generally going to be much better in the long term.

However a lot of women are not comfortable doing this for many reasons that have been discussed previously around the place. In my mind there are two main benefits for this sort of class or course.

1 - They can act as a stepping stone for more serious and continued training.
2 - The old adage is still true - a small amount of training is better than none.

The being said there are definitely bad courses and good courses. The biggest risk is that you send the women home with a false sense of security. This is made worse by the fact that a lot of women self defence are run as a set course running for X weeks (6-8 is common). So women can think that because the course is over, they have learned all there is to know in that time.

What can be really beneficial in my mind is a sit down lecture type presentation with guest speakers. Police officers or other LEO and emergency services are great. Basically they can get across the types of risks and common sense avoidance tactics to prevent and escape from attacks as well as identify danger. They can also being in the legal aspects of self defence. This sort of thing in my mind is far more useful than the physical techniques that are taught. But in comparison what you can also find is this sort of thing isn't really common in the general MA arena, even in the higher contact arts that were originally mentioned.

So basically there can be good and bad courses, as long as the teacher gives a sense of reality to what is being taught. And are very clear about what is being taught rather than along the lines of 'take this course and you can survive any attack'.

This comes from me taking such as course ~5 years before starting regular training. I forget the vast majority of the techniques taught but remember the lectures, even though I think upon it now even these could have been better done.

I've also toyed with the idea of running a similar class myself, but I don't think I have the necessary qualifications, background or experience yet to do it - particularity the psychological side of things.

ADDITION: Actually sine I am here (and this is mostly directed at JWT) can you think of anything I can do (training, experience, reading etc) I could look into to get more qualified, even just as an informal thing. I would want to know this for myself anyway.

[Microlamia]

People seem to have short memories, probably about 15 years ago there was a female BJJ black belt that was brutally attacked and raped by a much larger man.

Eek.

Note to self. Do a whole moloch load of resistance training.

[Bigmikey]

Has anyone ever attended/seen a women's self defense class? I'm really curious as to how it would differ from the type of MA classes we're used to seeing. I'm guess there was obvious be an emphasis on 'dirty' tactics such as eye gouges, groin kicks, etc. What other tactics do they teach? And how do they train? Full contact and with resistence?

My main question is, do you think women's SD classes are more or less beneficial for women than a full contact, mixed gender martial art such as krav maga, muay thai, mma, or some form of jujutsu? Do you think women's self defense should be taught separately?

Personally, I think women would benifit more from training with males and in a tough full-contact style.



Actually I have a friend who teaches a self defense course and is quite successful at it. The differeces as they appear to me are rather profound. Firstly there are no kata to practice, no belts to earn or rituals to perform such as bowing, etc. All the techniques used are straight to the point and practical, unlike many martial arts. Where Krav Maga has a wealth of offensive techniques SD doesnt. It all deals with the opponent placing you in a position of danger.

The focus on immediate reaction and simple strikes. For example, against a front two handed shoulder grab (the kind men always use on women in the movies in order to 'talk sense into them', lol) the movements are simple. There isnt any grab this, twist around, now loop your tumb in his nostril, pull his buttocks up over his head and tickle his left foot. It is left ridge hand to the groin and double handed volley ball "bump" style strike to the underside of the chin. Step back, and run.

Personally I think we should ALL learn a little basic, old fashioned self defense.

[Rebel Wado]

Eek.

Note to self. Do a whole moloch load of resistance training.

You know, I'm kind of wondering about my own sources on that assault. I'm having difficulties confirming the facts about a sexual assault on a BJJ Black Belt or the time frame. Maybe for the better as the identities of rape survivors really should not be a easy thing to find.

In any case, I wanted to address the resistance training. As I remember it described (which unverified as I stated in last paragraph), the woman was hit in the head and knocked to the ground. Repeated slaps to the head factored into the outcome.

In your resistance training, I suggest including dealing with open hand strikes to your head with everything else.

[jwt]

ADDITION: Actually sine I am here (and this is mostly directed at JWT) can you think of anything I can do (training, experience, reading etc) I could look into to get more qualified, even just as an informal thing. I would want to know this for myself anyway.

Hi

How can I help?

Well, what you need depends upon what you've got to be honest! :) I don't know where you are, how you were brought up, what you've trained in, what that training is like etc...

A good self defence instructor needs to know predator tactics, HAOV, crime stats, safety strategies, biomechanics, vulnerable points of the body, use of force and the law, fear management techniques, empowerment techniques, conflict management strategies, a working knowledge of human physiology, human stress responses, simple adrenal tolerant effective striking and unbalancing techniques, full and semi contact safety procedures and safety strategies, scenario simulation procedures, risk assessment procedures, first aid... as a basic platform.

At risk of offending a number of instructors I would say that what a student needs to be effective as a self defence fighter/escapee can be taught in considerably less time than it takes to be a martial arts fighter. Furthermore a good self protection class will result in someone able to defend themselves more competently on the street quicker than a good martial arts class - they are different beasts preparing for different things after all. However, in my opinion as someone who has been both, what an instructor needs to be an effective self defence instructor takes far longer to learn than the requirements to be an effective martial arts instructor for most martial arts.

At the top of my reading list for you would be
Gavin De Becker - Protecting the Gift
Bruce Siddle - Sharpening the Warrior's Edge

[robertmap]

Hi John,

However, in my opinion as someone who has been both, what an instructor needs to be an effective self defence instructor takes far longer to learn than the requirements to be an effective martial arts instructor for most martial arts.

Not sure that I agree with this. It would be possible to systematise training so that something like a basic self-defence course could be taught by someone with relatively minimal skills.

I do the same with my Anger Management Coach training courses that I teach professionally. As long as the person is a competent trainer or coach I can teach them to coach using my anger management program in three to four days. In the same way if you systematised the self-defence instruction then within a week - given suitable people - you could teach them to deliver a successful and useful self-defence course.

Remember someone with no self-defence training needs only a little training to see a dramatic improvement.

[simon s]

I do the same with my Anger Management Coach training courses that I teach professionally. As long as the person is a competent trainer or coach I can teach them to coach using my anger management program in three to four days. In the same way if you systematised the self-defence instruction then within a week - given suitable people - you could teach them to deliver a successful and useful self-defence course.

I think there is a big difference between a teacher and a coach.

You may be able to get someone to teach in three to four days, but surely not to coach.
In my opinion a coach adapts to each person as an individual, rather than the group as a whole.
Being a coach relies on being able to break down a system or individual technique, being a teacher does not.
I think it is wrong to teach a three or four day self defence course and expect the students to go out and deliver that course.

[jwt]

Hi Robert,

Any good teacher can teach something if they have reference manuals, powerpoints, videos etc and a bit of time to absorb the material.

Could such a person deliver a successful and useful self defence course? Yes, it's possible. Would they have the subject matter understanding to explain what they are doing and why? No. Would they be a better and more effective self defence instructor if they had a greater knowledge base from which to form a course? Yes.

[Microlamia]

What the heck is HAOV?

[Moi]

Habitual Acts Of Violence

[Bigmikey]

What the heck is HAOV?

High Altittude Ovarian Vacuum... its a russian KGB secret killing technique...

[jwt]

High Altittude Ovarian Vacuum... its a russian KGB secret killing technique...

LOL

[Mitch]

Nice thread. Lots of good examples of why MA of any sort =/= self defence.

An analogy that I think is interesting is the same people use to avoid your house being burgled. You don't spend days mounting tripwires in your hall, covering the stairs in marbles and balancing buckets of water on every door, you just make it look harder to burgle than the other houses. Gates, locks, alarms, simple stuff. Target hardening I suppose.

Any SD, including women's needs to focus primarily on the awareness and target hardening issues. Then it needs to cover HAOV. I have to thank jwt for it, but I now find it amazing that people teach SD without knowing what the common attacks are.

As for what art to learn, that's missing the point. It's not about the trading card imaginings where BJJ's Groundwork 11 beats Rapist's Position 7.

Attackers stop because their desire for a goal is overcome by your desire not to be a victim. So fighting off an attacker is about making it "better" for them to go elsewhere, it's about target hardening. You don't need to defeat an attacker, you need to break their will to win, you need to make them look elsewhere.

It would make for an interesting poll to ask how many MAists train against the HAOV.

Mitch

[robertmap]

Would they have the subject matter understanding to explain what they are doing and why? No. Would they be a better and more effective self defence instructor if they had a greater knowledge base from which to form a course? Yes.

I agree with the statement however there is an issue to do with what is being taught - is it a two hour seminar, a one day course, a weekend intensive, etc...

Basically I would argue that a short course of say a few hours could be adequately delivered to people with no SD training by someone who had been taught to deliver just that course. Yes an expert is better but suppose you wanted to teach everyone in the country some SD - then the quick-coach method might be better...

Another and better question is what actually makes a good course - I have seen a wide variety of courses over the years and very few get the mix of verbal / situational / psychological / physical / tactical / etc etc right - and even if you get it right for group 'A' it may not be right for group 'B' - Of course I accept that this may be where an expert trainer helps as they can IN THEORY modify the course to suit the audience - although in practice I wonder if this actually happens all that often "This is my drum and I like beating it this way" :)

It's many years since I last taught a womens self defence class and I only did it because I was persuaded that there were a reasonable number of women who would ONLY come and train in an environment with other women students. In fact, some women will only feel comfortable training if there is a woman instructor. Of course a mixed class allows for far better interaction and role play but I guess that I agree that any training is probably better than no training.

I think I may have wondered around a bit with my above thoughts - hope that some of them make sense :)

[Metal_Kitty]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

Some very good points have been made. I agree that self defense and martial arts are not the same thing, and that a large component of self defense should be based on avoiding being the target in the first place...i.e. situation awareness, verbal diffusion and psychological components.

Thinking back, when I first created the thread, I didn't have those things in mind...I was only thinking about the actual physical defense once an attack has already begun. I think for that component of it...women definitely need to train with male partners, if not male students then definitely a male instructor. I think women who've never trained with men will get a shock when they're faced with a large, strong male opponent, because suddenly everything they've learnt changes....even psychologically.

[melb]

I think Fish of Doom hit the nail squarely on the head when he said its largely about mindset. With everyone, a killer instict (in my opinion) is more important than anything else. People, both male and female, take years and years learning how to fight, yet still a lot cant simply because they dont have it in them (which is not a bad thing). For all those women who have survived an assault, in how many cases is it due purely to their SD training and how many to their mindset? Personally I think a lot of SD instructors use womens natural fear to make money. And for women who take SD classes, why think that you can learn how to defend yourself without putting in much effort? To give you a fighting chance? You already know how to run and you already know the vulnerable parts of a human body.

[jwt]

I agree with the statement however there is an issue to do with what is being taught - is it a two hour seminar, a one day course, a weekend intensive, etc...

Basically I would argue that a short course of say a few hours could be adequately delivered to people with no SD training by someone who had been taught to deliver just that course. Yes an expert is better but suppose you wanted to teach everyone in the country some SD - then the quick-coach method might be better...

Another and better question is what actually makes a good course - I have seen a wide variety of courses over the years and very few get the mix of verbal / situational / psychological / physical / tactical / etc etc right - and even if you get it right for group 'A' it may not be right for group 'B' - Of course I accept that this may be where an expert trainer helps as they can IN THEORY modify the course to suit the audience - although in practice I wonder if this actually happens all that often "This is my drum and I like beating it this way" :)

It's many years since I last taught a womens self defence class and I only did it because I was persuaded that there were a reasonable number of women who would ONLY come and train in an environment with other women students. In fact, some women will only feel comfortable training if there is a woman instructor. Of course a mixed class allows for far better interaction and role play but I guess that I agree that any training is probably better than no training.

I think I may have wondered around a bit with my above thoughts - hope that some of them make sense :)

Hi Robert

You raise a couple of interesting points.

I still teach female only courses on a regular basis. Sometimes that's because the venue/organisation is female only - but most of the time it's because I say that I can do a co-ed course of a single sex course, but the single sex course is better. Why is the single sex course better? because the predominant nature of the threat for men and the threat for women is different. Running a single sex course (particularly a short course) allows me to focus on what they need. For people coming to regular classes this is less of an issue, which is why I run co-ed classes.

Reference your saying that a short course could be delivered by someone with little training here I would take completely the opposite view! :) In fact, the shorter the course the better the instructor needs to be to ensure that the greatest benefit is given.

When we look at the breakdown of the really short courses - the physical element goes out of the window (especially if you've only been given 1 - 1.5 hours). It is the least important aspect of the training. The most important things are the threat identification and avoidance, fear management, the verbal defuse, the empowerment by the law to act if required and the personal empowerment.

Personal empowerment is a tricky subject. Some people naturally have it through either genetics or their upbringing, others don't. To switch that on, that takes more skill than any short 'train to be an instructor' course can deliver. It's more than just telling empowering stories and examples - you can't just get it from a script.

[melb]

the fact that youve broken it down into all these catch phrases..I particularly liked the term 'verbal defuse'...means that youre complicating something that is really very simple. I put up with enough of this acronym bs at work sorry

[melb]

not really an acronym but still bs

[melb]

and what the hell is personal empowerment?? seriously what a load of *&^%

[melb]

there will always be two truths in life..kids will want to learn cool (unrealistic) moves and there will always be someone there to say to women.."you could be the next victim..hurry, enrol now"

[Hannibal]

and what the hell is personal empowerment?? seriously what a load of *&^%

Call it self-confidence then - I fail to see why this has flipped your switches so badly...hardly the worse level of BS out there and certainly not worthy of such vitriol

[Mitch]

Remember how you took a ban for making multiple, short posts melb? Guess what's going to happen soon unless you stop making multiple, short posts?

Edit: Just saw the next two posts and the profanity. Have some time to reflect.

Mitch

[Hannibal]

Frankly I would be more concerned with them talking crap, but either way the result will probably end up being similar

[jwt]

Thinking back, when I first created the thread, I didn't have those things in mind...I was only thinking about the actual physical defense once an attack has already begun. I think for that component of it...women definitely need to train with male partners, if not male students then definitely a male instructor. I think women who've never trained with men will get a shock when they're faced with a large, strong male opponent, because suddenly everything they've learnt changes....even psychologically.

It's interesting you say this because I've known of women and female instructors who insist that men can't teach women self defence because they're not women and don't know what it is like to be a woman.

I think training with men has value and if you can get women to do it then you should. However from a self defence perspective I think care needs to be taken in terms of what the men are doing (as role players) in the training.

I'm not sure I agree with your second point as I would think that most women are aware how different a large strong male is compared to a female partner of the same size unless they've grown up with no brothers and/or no boyfriends.

[Hannibal]

It's interesting you say this because I've known of women and female instructors who insist that men can't teach women self defence because they're not women and don't know what it is like to be a woman.

I call BS on this - that is like saying they cannot teach moves that work against a man because they are not men and do not know what it is like to feel the impact.

I think training with men has value and if you can get women to do it then you should. However from a self defence perspective I think care needs to be taken in terms of what the men are doing (as role players) in the training.

Agreed - it need not become a sparring match, but the sheer size differential is often a valuable learning tool. I tend to allow the moves to be done against me as the instructor at the end because the classes view me as non-threatening and also know that I never "sell" a move unless they do it properly

[jwt]

I think Fish of Doom hit the nail squarely on the head when he said its largely about mindset. With everyone, a killer instict (in my opinion) is more important than anything else. People, both male and female, take years and years learning how to fight, yet still a lot cant simply because they dont have it in them (which is not a bad thing). For all those women who have survived an assault, in how many cases is it due purely to their SD training and how many to their mindset? Personally I think a lot of SD instructors use womens natural fear to make money. And for women who take SD classes, why think that you can learn how to defend yourself without putting in much effort? To give you a fighting chance? You already know how to run and you already know the vulnerable parts of a human body.

You asked what personal empowerment was?

It's mindset.

Some people will automatically defend themselves. They are that way through a combination of genetics, upbringing and environment. The majority of those people will avoid or fight off an attack through the street smarts and attitude they have gained over life with no requirement for any self defence training. Those that do choose to train are more likely to opt for martial arts with a strong combative and competitive element because they are already programmed that way.

However, there are many people who do not have this ability. They've not been taught by their families to stick up for themselves, and/or they've been raised in sheltered environments which means they've never had to develop real street smarts. Through a combination of genetics, upbringing and environment these people are not mentally aware of the threat (which can cause media induced unnecessary anxiety until trained and briefed - bear in mind that one of the roles of a good self defence instructor is to dispel anxiety through appropriate information and training, not to make people fearful or paranoid) and are not prepared to fight back (at times where it is necessary - bearing in mind that a combative response is not always the best response). These people need personal empowerment.

You said above that a lot cant simply because they don't have it in them - that's what personal empowerment is about. It's about finding and flicking the switch to make these people able to fight back.

Too fancy a term for you? Tough. It's a Ronseal term - it means exactly what it says on the tin.

[jwt]

I call BS on this - that is like saying they cannot teach moves that work against a man because they are not men and do not know what it is like to feel the impact.

Are you calling on those saying it? Or are you calling on me in that you think I'm making it up? :)

I think the fact that I teach self protection and self defence to women indicates where I stand on the matter. :)

[jwt]

the fact that youve broken it down into all these catch phrases..I particularly liked the term 'verbal defuse'...means that youre complicating something that is really very simple. I put up with enough of this acronym bs at work sorry

These are pretty common terms. I'd rather use the phrase 'verbal defuse' than say "methods of talking to someone which might de-escalate the situation and avoid an attack". Far more complicated.

[Hannibal]

Are you calling on those saying it? Or are you calling on me in that you think I'm making it up? :)

I think the fact that I teach self protection and self defence to women indicates where I stand on the matter. :)

On them - sorry i thought I contextualised it correctly!

[Metal_Kitty]

the fact that youve broken it down into all these catch phrases..I particularly liked the term 'verbal defuse'...means that youre complicating something that is really very simple. I put up with enough of this acronym bs at work sorry

It's not a catch phrase....it's a term that we use in class. It's nothing fancy or complicated...just means to disengage yourself from a situation using verbal tactics. Don't make something out of it that it's not.

[Metal_Kitty]

I'm not sure I agree with your second point as I would think that most women are aware how different a large strong male is compared to a female partner of the same size unless they've grown up with no brothers and/or no boyfriends.

But I think simply being aware that men are bigger and stronger is not enough...I think they need to know what it FEELS like to be physically engaged with someone like that. From personal experience, it's a totally different feeling.

I hate to sound sexist right now (and corona's probably gonna kill me), but in all my martial arts experience, I don't think I've ever received as much benefit from training with a female partner as I have with a male.

[PASmith]

I'm still unsure on the value of knowing HAOV.
It's something that used to play on my mind. Knowing how someone was likely to attack you. Learning how to counter that etc. It became a little bit too much like making a list and "collecting" in some ways.

But I've also been swayed by Iain Abernethy's views on self defence in as much as he doesn't care what HAOV you are doing because he's too busy smashing you in the head and neck. :)
Knowing the HAOV could play into being in an overly defensive mindset? Too reactive rather than proactive?

Currently I think I'm between the two.
I think knowing likely attacks and attack methods is useful. It can help answer those "what if" questions. It can help build confidence because you know you've, in some way, tackled the problem if you train to counter them. Take away that element of surprise.
But I also think you need to build up an attacking and aggressive style that doesn't give your opponent a chance to even do an HAOV.

But then we also have things like the SPEAR which seem to be founded on the idea that you don't need to know what the other guy is doing? Just SPEAR off the flinch and go from there?

[jwt]

On the topic of acronyms I do use plenty of them in my system as they are useful tools. They help regular students and instructors remember psychological concepts and physical principles relevant to the subject matter.

However, I generally don't use them on forums as you have to break them down and explain them, which rather defeats the purpose. Similarly I hardly use any in courses because the aim is to include not exclude the learner. I think the only one I do use is the SAS principle because of what it stands for and the imagery that the term conjures up in the UK.

SAS Principle:

Select
Active
Strategy
and apply with
Speed
Aggression and
Sustain


I used HAOV above since it is a fairly common term in the martial arts world these days (along with HAV and HAPV), however I wouldn't use it in a lay presentation.

Acronyms have to serve a purpose. I have met some people who have (I think) adopted acronyms for some things just because they think it's cool, rather than it serving a purpose as an abbreviation and/or a mnemonic.

I do sympathise with melb with regard to feeling acronym overload at work. The people I work with part time have acronyms for everything which can be a right pain if you don't know them, but I recognise that they're a useful time saver when you do.

[Southpaw535]

But I think simply being aware that men are bigger and stronger is not enough...I think they need to know what it FEELS like to be physically engaged with someone like that. From personal experience, it's a totally different feeling.

I hate to sound sexist right now (and corona's probably gonna kill me), but in all my martial arts experience, I don't think I've ever received as much benefit from training with a female partner as I have with a male.

I'm going to have to agree with that. Everyone pretty much knows males are generally stronger and it shouldn't need to be taught to anyone but knowing the theory without any practical isn't going to be good. I know if I spar full contact with some of my mates they will have a lot of power and reach over me because they're bigger and heavier but I know actually being on the receiving end is a lot different when you're feeling that power difference.

However, I generally don't use them on forums as you have to break them down and explain them, which rather defeats the purpose. Similarly I hardly use any in courses because the aim is to include not exclude the learner. I think the only one I do use is the SAS principle because of what it stands for and the imagery that the term conjures up in the UK.
I like to think of myself as a pretty mature adult but seeing "SAS principle" did make me think "secret special forces stuff!!!"

[righty]

JWT, where and how do you source your male bodies for the womens only classes?

[jwt]

I'm still unsure on the value of knowing HAOV.
It's something that used to play on my mind. Knowing how someone was likely to attack you. Learning how to counter that etc. It became a little bit too much like making a list and "collecting" in some ways.

But I've also been swayed by Iain Abernethy's views on self defence in as much as he doesn't care what HAOV you are doing because he's too busy smashing you in the head and neck. :)
Knowing the HAOV could play into being in an overly defensive mindset? Too reactive rather than proactive?

Currently I think I'm between the two.
I think knowing likely attacks and attack methods is useful. It can help answer those "what if" questions. It can help build confidence because you know you've, in some way, tackled the problem if you train to counter them. Take away that element of surprise.
But I also think you need to build up an attacking and aggressive style that doesn't give your opponent a chance to even do an HAOV.

But then we also have things like the SPEAR which seem to be founded on the idea that you don't need to know what the other guy is doing? Just SPEAR off the flinch and go from there?

Hi

The value of knowing HAOV...
Forewarned is forearmed.

In the days before people started flagging up HAOV the majority of martial artists trained against martial arts attacks. Even in their self defence classes people would chamber punches and attack just as they did in class.

So what did HAOV do?

HAOV changed everything. You get good at what you train for. If you just train against front kicks, roundhouse kicks and straight punches - you're not preparing yourself for the close range haymaker or headbutt. The whole idea behind knowing HAOV is that you train against the most common attacks which increases your odds on spotting, preempting and defending against them.

The viewpoint from Iain that you mention is okay... but in order to pre-empt and make that HAOV irrelevant you've got to have made the (right) decision to preempt or intercept, and one of the best ways to do that is to train against HAOV.

With regard to your comments on the S.P.E.A.R. System - I'm no longer a qualified coach with Blauer Tactical Systems S.P.E.A.R. System BasicsTM, but they have drills for Primary Initiation Attacks (PIAs) which they believe it is important to know as a focus for your training. PIAs are HAOV.

There is a universal acceptance that to train effectively you have to direct your training towards its objective. This is why increasingly modern armies (and armed police) use video game close combat trainers, blank firing tactical training, simmunition, and why Riot Police train against mock riots etc. These training methods have a proven track record of increasing the ability to respond effectively in real situations. When you think about it, all they are doing is applying what sports (and martial arts) coaches have known for years. You get good at what you train for. :)

[jwt]

But I think simply being aware that men are bigger and stronger is not enough...I think they need to know what it FEELS like to be physically engaged with someone like that. From personal experience, it's a totally different feeling.

I hate to sound sexist right now (and corona's probably gonna kill me), but in all my martial arts experience, I don't think I've ever received as much benefit from training with a female partner as I have with a male.

I understand your point.

Actually one of my very first martial arts instructors was a woman. How much you can learn depends upon the woman involved. But to be fair, lots of women fail to reach their potential because men aren't tough enough on them. The best women tend to be the ones who have sought out and sparred with the better men.

If Dave Grossman is to be believed this may change. Already we are seeing an increase in female violence which the medical profession says has been caused by the introduction of violent female role models in children's TV. I don't want to derail the thread by going into an argument on media violence though.

[jwt]

JWT, where and how do you source your male bodies for the womens only classes?

I recruit male students and instructors who I have trained to be 'bad guys'. These are people who are prepared to get hit, but also prepared to carefully gauge and pace how much force and aggression they use so that the student is always put under pressure, but never too much.

TKDMitch has done this for me with one of his students.

[PASmith]

Cheers John. That's made that a lot clearer for me. :)

[jwt]

Cheers John. That's made that a lot clearer for me. :)

Not an issue. The important thing about spending time collecting data is to use it! :) I agree with you that just knowing HAOV isn't so much use!

[PASmith]

I guess it's a lesson in not only looking at what the information is telling you explicitly but also implicitly too?
Knowing a haymaker with the right hand is a HAOV also tells you that a straight lunging punch isn't (for example).

[jwt]

I guess it's a lesson in not only looking at what the information is telling you explicitly but also implicitly too?
Knowing a haymaker with the right hand is a HAOV also tells you that a straight lunging punch isn't (for example).

Yes. That's not to say that you don't occasionally get fights started with a jab, but it's uncommon. It's also worth pointing out that HAOV vary from country to country. For example I recall that a waist tackle is a common attack starter in the USA - almost unheard of here in the UK. By contrast a headbutt is a common attack starter over here, almost unknown as a 'first strike' in the USA. I'm pretty certain that there's a link there to USA football and wrestling taught as sports in school (not here in the UK) and UK Soccer (less common in USA).

Ultimately we need to inform our training to what we want to do. If you want to be a competitive fighter then you need to be able to fight against the techniques most commonly used in competitions. If you are purely training for self defence then training against HAOV will be more your thing. Depending on your areas of interest and your lifestyle you need to make the judgement as to how to balance your training.

[robertmap]

Whilst I do think that HAOV training is important, I think that there is a another element that is possibly more important and is one of the differences between traditional martial arts training and modern methods.

I would suggest that as a rule, these days, class sizes are much larger. An old style traditional teacher (Kung Fu, Karate, whatever) only had a few students at a time. Now if you accept that premise...

An instructor needs to look carefully at the lifestyle, physical and psychological composition and expectations of EACH individual student and tailor the training that they receive to make that individual as effective (within the boundaries of the style or system that they are teaching) as possible.

I do feel that there is WAY too much 'one size fits all' training in most modern martial and self defence training programs.

[Mitch]

TKDMitch has done this for me with one of his students.

And very interesting it was too.

Mitch

[jwt]

Whilst I do think that HAOV training is important, I think that there is a another element that is possibly more important and is one of the differences between traditional martial arts training and modern methods.

I would suggest that as a rule, these days, class sizes are much larger. An old style traditional teacher (Kung Fu, Karate, whatever) only had a few students at a time. Now if you accept that premise...

An instructor needs to look carefully at the lifestyle, physical and psychological composition and expectations of EACH individual student and tailor the training that they receive to make that individual as effective (within the boundaries of the style or system that they are teaching) as possible.

I do feel that there is WAY too much 'one size fits all' training in most modern martial and self defence training programs.

That's a good point Robert. Training should always be tailored to the students' needs.

[Microlamia]

I agree that it should be tailored to people's needs. People are not averages. Some students might be very short, or very tall, or have low motor skills, or otherwise not suited to techniques developed for a generic Woman X.

[Sargeslide]

I actually teach womens self defense, fighting is only part of it, you have to desenitize females to modesty and language, and then teach them how to properly beat the living snot out of someone, more later

Sarge

[Sargeslide]

OK,now I have more time to really write about this.

I have been teaching women SD for about 16 years, started out slow and careful, but after awhile, I and they figured out that they needed to be trained just like men. I spent about two years asking questions from my freinds who are female about what they think they need to learn. I think the most interesting thing was that they want realistic, tough, training. No ********, and they didn't care who taught it as long as they felt they could "trust" them. So I developed a course for females, a short and a long course.

Mostly, we do everything we would with men. I have turned out some serious she devils in the last 14 years. And they have helped me learn how to teach gals.

I think the biggest problem I had to get past was how close you have to be sometimes, and the language that has to be used. But, again, they showed me it was no big deal, I had thier best interest in mind, and I was as professional as I could be when teaching.

I have special sessions with the females I teach, one to introduce foul language, one to talk about modesty, these two things are the most dangerous weapons in an attackers toolbox when it comes to women.

Women are taught to be modest, and in a fight they will stop to put something away that popped out. That has to be trained out of them.

Language can be just as debilitating to a woman, attackers will say the filthiest things possible to shock and hurt a female, so they have to learn to disregard, and overcome that shock to be successful.

Kicking, striking, groundfighting, that's the easy stuff. It is the above two that are hard to do, along with changing mindset.

So, while it has at times been "controversial" I have not stopped teaching the way I do, anything less would be a dis-service to my students.

I know some of you think I may be nuts, others will think I am setting myself up for trouble, but this is how I do it, and have been very successful.

Sarge

[Microlamia]

How can language be debilitating? I mean, yes, it's shocking and scary when someone threatens in crude terms to do something to you, but scarier again is the danger of them actually doing it...

[Sargeslide]

A lot of women are not used to being called degrading names, also, women I have trained "After the fact" have told me that it was the language used by the attacker that was terrifying. One told me the guy literally talked her into the car and made her take her own clothes off, then raped her, she was so scared, she just didn't want to die.

He didn't show a weapon of any type, she just thought he had one from what he said.

Some attackers can talk females into cars and take them to second lcations, all out of fear.
Coronavirus, I don't know if you are male or female, but read up on some of the stories victims put out there, it does happen.

Sarge

[Microlamia]

A lot of women are not used to being called degrading names, also, women I have trained "After the fact" have told me that it was the language used by the attacker that was terrifying. One told me the guy literally talked her into the car and made her take her own clothes off, then raped her, she was so scared, she just didn't want to die.

He didn't show a weapon of any type, she just thought he had one from what he said.

Some attackers can talk females into cars and take them to second lcations, all out of fear.
Coronavirus, I don't know if you are male or female, but read up on some of the stories victims put out there, it does happen.

Sarge

I'm female....

[simon s]

How can language be debilitating?

I think for the very reasons that Sarge outlined.

When I teach SD in class some of the guys even have trouble expressing the appearance/body language and foul language I require. There is a massive difference between shoving someone off and shoving with a look of intent and all the industrial language that goes with it, and whats more if you can't do it in class it is not happening outside. Not everyone swears like a trooper.

Even getting women who have never trained before to slap a boxing mitt and shout "back off" with intent is hard. Remember not all students are in their
20's, we have had ladies of more senior years come to SD class as well as 14 year old girls so learning a spinning back fist in a 2 hour class won't work The best thing they have in their arsenal is confidence, body language and verbal disuassion.

[Southpaw535]

A lot of women are not used to being called degrading names, also, women I have trained "After the fact" have told me that it was the language used by the attacker that was terrifying. One told me the guy literally talked her into the car and made her take her own clothes off, then raped her, she was so scared, she just didn't want to die.

He didn't show a weapon of any type, she just thought he had one from what he said.

Some attackers can talk females into cars and take them to second lcations, all out of fear.
Coronavirus, I don't know if you are male or female, but read up on some of the stories victims put out there, it does happen.

Sarge

I can second that

[Sargeslide]

I'm female....


Cool. Now, tell me what you think every woman should know to defend herself in various situations. I really want to know, it helps me teach.

I actually enjoy teaching women, they tend to not have the "Macho" thing going on, and take instructon better, sometimes with tears, but over all, they are better students. They take it serious, and once they know you are working hard for them, they will forgive you for being a dumbass guy.

My assistant instructor is 5'2" little petite gal, who will drop a bear if she has to. She keeps me straight and I trust her to let me know what we have to do for the benefit of our students.

Sarge

[Microlamia]

Cool. Now, tell me what you think every woman should know to defend herself in various situations. I really want to know, it helps me teach.

I actually enjoy teaching women, they tend to not have the "Macho" thing going on, and take instructon better, sometimes with tears, but over all, they are better students. They take it serious, and once they know you are working hard for them, they will forgive you for being a dumbass guy.

My assistant instructor is 5'2" little petite gal, who will drop a bear if she has to. She keeps me straight and I trust her to let me know what we have to do for the benefit of our students.

Sarge

I couldn't really speak for women in general. For myself, what I'd want to be able to do in a self defence situation is retain good technique and an effective response under an adrenaline dump. I'm not good at that in safe controlled sparring, let alone while fighting off a rapist.

I'd also want to be able to defend myself in all ranges, for example fighting on my feet won't be much use if I can't escape when pulled to the ground out of nowhere.

Can't really think of much other than that. Thanks for asking.

[simon s]

I couldn't really speak for women in general. For myself, what I'd want to be able to do in a self defence situation is retain good technique and an effective response under an adrenaline dump. I'm not good at that in safe controlled sparring, let alone while fighting off a rapist.

I'd also want to be able to defend myself in all ranges, for example fighting on my feet won't be much use if I can't escape when pulled to the ground out of nowhere.


Then just keep doing what you're doing.

You won't get that from a SD class (typically), why, well they are short courses and you can't get that from such a course.

[righty]

You say that they need to be taught just like men. But it looks like you limit this to the delivery and training methodology. You teach different self defense content in the womens self defense than a mens or mixed class?

[Sargeslide]

No, I actually have co-ed classes too. Some women are not comfortable with the things we have to teach and do with them, with men. And believe it or not the men aren't too comfortable with it either.

Women fight for different reasons then men, and you have to approch it differently. Women have to defend against power and sex, and thieves.
Men rarely do, it's usually two idiot's being macho,or a straight attack, or robbery.

The men I deal with would be the guy to help the gal, not hurt her, so they won't go full out with a gal, PLUS there is the typical Breast, crotch, butt, stuff between everyone, I don't like making people do that, lets be adult, having someone as close to you as a lover, who you do not know, throws everyone off. Us guys are always worried that a female or her BF/Husband will get pissed, and trust me, they do.

So I offer Female exclusive classes, I am the head instructor and I usually have a female assistant. Any demo's, like attacks or simulated rape senarios are me and her. Her BF knows this goes on, he knows she is like my own daughter, and he is cool with it. She might have beat his ass to get him to agree, LOL. She is the one who said we had to show realistic attacks and stuff so we worked together and we do it. It really makes gals pay attention.

Where else can they learn to fight properly where they won't be self concoius of a breast popping out, or some happening that could embarass them in a normal situation? Learning to not cover up is so hard for women to overcome,no I don't make them expose themselves or anyhting like that, but accidents happen, and they gotta keep going until they have beat the attacker down or escaped.

The language we use in the Female only class is harsh, to desensitize them to it. So when a guy grabs her and says he is going to stick his **** in her *** and **** her until she is dead and so on, she can do what she has to, to survive the situation.

Other than these things, I do teach them all the same techniques. I also teach awareness, which is way more important than almost anything else.

They also have to take on men, in safe suits, to see that what they have learned will work no matter who it is used on.

I take an extreme amount of pride on how I teach females, mainly because my mother was almost beaten to death in front of me when I was five, and in my estimation, no one really trains gals right. they do an eyepoke, kick the crotch seminar for 3 hours and call it a day (In general)

A short course for me is 12 weeks, two hours, three time a week.

A belted course, to BB, is 28-36 months depending on the student.

Wish you were in SW Michigan, Northwest Indiana, I could explain it better in person, or teach you .

Hope this clears things up
Sarge

[melb]

Was there a reason the vikings left their women at home? What are we talking about here? Males are meant to train 10 years plus to become proficient but a woman can learn what she needs to to defeat a guy in a short course?..I certainly dont have anything against women learning how to fight but maybe instead of sticking around, running would be the best option? - that and learning which areas of the city your're in and when to avoid them? Im sorry I just dont buy into the whole womens self defence thing..my wife for example..trying to teach her to punch with meaning is harder than getting water from a stone. Like I said earlier..its all about mentality/personality..if a woman has it she has it..if she doesnt she doesnt..and no matter how many classes she takes, when or if it happens, its all up to own determination to stand up for herself. Im not trying to detract from the self defence trainers out there because I realise most of you guys are actually interested in helping women. What I said to my wife is feign weakness and then go for the vulnerable points when they least expect it...(if running away isnt an option). I know she would do this, but thats because i know her personally..teaching her coarse language aint gonna do anything

[jwt]

Was there a reason the vikings left their women at home? What are we talking about here? Males are meant to train 10 years plus to become proficient but a woman can learn what she needs to to defeat a guy in a short course?..I certainly dont have anything against women learning how to fight but maybe instead of sticking around, running would be the best option? - that and learning which areas of the city your're in and when to avoid them? Im sorry I just dont buy into the whole womens self defence thing..my wife for example..trying to teach her to punch with meaning is harder than getting water from a stone. Like I said earlier..its all about mentality/personality..if a woman has it she has it..if she doesnt she doesnt..and no matter how many classes she takes, when or if it happens, its all up to own determination to stand up for herself. Im not trying to detract from the self defence trainers out there because I realise most of you guys are actually interested in helping women. What I said to my wife is feign weakness and then go for the vulnerable points when they least expect it...(if running away isnt an option). I know she would do this, but thats because i know her personally..teaching her coarse language aint gonna do anything

Running is a great option depending on footwear. A further consideration is that a woman may have to fight to get the opportunity to run and that statistically the average woman is likely to be slower than the average male.

As a suggestion to get your wife to hit harder:
1. Experiment with palm strikes to the head rather than punches. If the hand is aligned with the forearm more force can be transferred with a lower risk of wrist injury. If doing this on a focus mitt they need to aim to hit the edge (just as if they were going for a jaw or temple). Further pros of palms is the ability to rake straight afterwards and the fact that they replicate natural protective movements and can be learned quicker.
2. Ask her to imagine that someone is attacking you, your children (if you have them), her mum or someone else she is close to and likely to feel protective of. If you can bring out the mother protecting cub response you will find that she hits harder with greater aggression than if she was purely protecting herself.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that men are meant to train for 10 years to become proficient? People can become very proficient fighters in far far less time - not champions like Machida or Eubank etc - but proficient and effective fighters none the less.

[melb]

She never wears anythig but flat shoes. We have a wing chun dummy and to her a strike is a strike..maybe 10 years is a bit much...but I beleive you need quite a long time to learn a style...maybe 10 years is too much but how long do you think is enough?

[iammartialarts]

Ive only watched one once . They spent the whole 20 minutes we were there hitting pads people were holding close to their balls with their legs. There were even a few little chinese guys doing it too.

[Moi]

She never wears anythig but flat shoes. We have a wing chun dummy and to her a strike is a strike..maybe 10 years is a bit much...but I beleive you need quite a long time to learn a style...maybe 10 years is too much but how long do you think is enough?

12 months, 3 times a week in something without kata/patterns etc should have anyone hitting real hard.

[Sargeslide]

Well, that's what I think too, however, running cannot always be counted on, and no, women do not learn how to properly apply one technique after another in a few hours. I do as few seminar style classes as possible, because if I have to depend on the student to really practice when it is only a short period of time, I might as well just not teach at all. AND, they also have SD seminars geared toward guys. And if you read the whole thing I wrote, it takes 28-36 months to become a BB, regardless of gender.

I don't teach them to swear, I teach them to ignore it, to make it a non issue, and something not worth reacting to.

Sarge

[melb]

Sarge, Im not saying what you teach is useless..Im not saying dont keep teaching self defence to women. What Im saying is there are a lot of people teaching rubbish and they happily take peoples money. If I lived near you Id enrol her whether she liked it or not and Id drive her there. What Im saying is its up to the peson...ive known a few girls whove done well in kickboxing..and at the same time there are a load of bogus self defense joints..in the end though its up to the individual

[jwt]

She never wears anythig but flat shoes. We have a wing chun dummy and to her a strike is a strike..maybe 10 years is a bit much...but I beleive you need quite a long time to learn a style...maybe 10 years is too much but how long do you think is enough?

When I've run an intensive 5 hour course I've been happy with the striking ability of teenage girls after 3 hours. Could they get better with more time? Of course. But after that amount of time of instruction and motivation they were doing enough to hurt (and stun) people in High Gear armour.

To learn a martial style - that takes a long time. It takes a pretty long time to become a good self defence instructor too - because you have to learn the hows and the whys behind everything you teach, whereas the average student just has to be able to competently 'do it'. To learn self defence, and be competent to handle the majority of situations? You can get the basics in a single intensive day in my experience. The more days you get obviously the better you get.

[melb]

ok, so are those teenage girls going to be able defend themsleves from a persistant male (whose obviously bigger) attacker? I also dont see the difference between being a good ma practitioner and a sd instructor..you have to learn the hows and whys either way..just a ma is for yourself and a sd is for others...

[jwt]

ok, so are those teenage girls going to be able defend themsleves from a persistant male (whose obviously bigger) attacker? I also dont see the difference between being a good ma practitioner and a sd instructor..you have to learn the hows and whys either way..just a ma is for yourself and a sd is for others...

I'm 6 foot and I was 95 kg the last time I attacked a teenage girl for a self defence seminar. Did I go as heavy as I could? No. I've years of experience in striking. I simulated a persistent attacker using HAOV. Did the girl fight me off to my satisfaction? Yes.

Would she successfully fight off one of that small percentage of the population that is a large aggressive person intent on hurting/killing another regardless of how much pain they might receive? Probably not, but then nor would most highly trained martial artists or Police Officers.

Reference your qu on ma practitioners and instructors. My point was that for good self defence you need a set of skills. Unlike the instructors you don't necessarily need to know all the sports science, physiology, criminology, behavioural science, martial arts, psychology, law etc that has been used to form that system. With lots of martial arts, time is taken spent learning lots of things that are part of the art, but not necessary for self defence - thats why it generally takes longer to become proficient in a style than in a self defence system. It is also why people who have trained in some martial arts styles for many many years, while very good martial artists, are not as proficient in self defence as people who have focused purely on self defence for a shorter period of time.

[PASmith]

so are those teenage girls going to be able defend themsleves from a persistant male (whose obviously bigger) attacker?

Teenage girls do it every day all over the world with no training at all.
Defending yourself isn't about winning a fight (although it can be). It's often about putting enough barriers (mental, psychological etc) in the way of your attackers objective that they abort their mission.
That could be as little as a slap and run, some choice words, some careful positioning and awareness or ramming a thumb in someone's eye.

[Rebel Wado]

Well in my experience with self-defense instruction, there definitely can be cultural, environmental, and psychological aspects that affect how well a lesson is learned and applies to each individual.

In a general sense, I've noticed that males seem to be able to focus on one thing at a time and kind of switch gears to focus on something else. For example, a male student might tend to come into a boxing training and if during the training they are told to clean the dishes in the kitchen :eek: they sort of don't listen at first. Then it kind of sinks in and they switch gears from boxing to cleaning the dishes. And when they start thinking about doing the dishes, they get punched in the face cause they forgot about boxing.

On the other hand, a female student might tend to come into boxing training and if told to do the dishes, it is all related to her. In fact, almost everything is related, like everything in the world is buzzing around in her mind at the same time. So she might be like, "hey you, stop punching me, I have to go do the dishes", and if you don't stop, then she then might be thinking, okay now I got to knock this guy out so I can go do the dishes.

A more applicable example could be if you bring a woman into training with someone else, and that someone grabs her as part of training, in the woman's mind this could bring back feelings of every other time she was grabbed, thoughts of her mother telling her how ladies should act, etc. because it is ALL related. So you tell the student to elbow the guy, but because the guy grabbed her in a certain way, she is frozen because it is like how she was grabbed before and this relates to her being told to be submissive in the past... Now in real time it looks just like a male student grabbing a female student in training and not related to anyting else... but in the mind of the female student, the levels of relationships with her past experiences, how she was raised, and all is just incredible complex.

Wow, hope I didn't just offend anyone with my attempt to explain something cause it is a very complex subject and I'm no expert, that's for sure.

Edit: What this means in a nutshell is that when a women trains in self-defense, she could be much more affected by what has happened to her in the past and how she was raised, than say a man training in the same environment. A man may be able to focus more on the one situation and forget the past, whereas a women may feel all things are related and any familiar trigger could set off memories and reactions based on past experiences.

[melb]

PAS I thought your post was a good one. I saw an example of just that on the train home last night. How though is a self defence class going to help them?. JWT, I hear what youre saying about having to learn a lot of things which are irrelevant to ma..maybe counting from 1-10 in japanese/chinese..having a grading... However, it all depends on the instructor in question. Personally I think ma or self defence..it doesnt matter...people are there to learn how to fight. When faced with a teenage girl who isnt interested in fighting and theyre only in the class because they have to be..what good is it doing?

[melb]

What Im saying I guess is that the sd industry is huge and its very similar to the 'join a gym and get fit' craze we have nowadays. Its largely about taking peoples money and giving very little in return. I realise there are some honest people out there who do their best and hopefully do some good. But can you ever train someone whos not interested in fighting to fight? Will their personality determine the outcome of an 'incident' rather than their sd training? I think so

[Rebel Wado]

What Im saying I guess is that the sd industry is huge and its very similar to the 'join a gym and get fit' craze we have nowadays. Its largely about taking peoples money and giving very little in return. I realise there are some honest people out there who do their best and hopefully do some good. But can you ever train someone whos not interested in fighting to fight? Will their personality determine the outcome of an 'incident' rather than their sd training? I think so

I think you might have quite a different opinion on self-defense than many in the industry. First there is a difference between fighting and fighting well. Fighting well means you pick your fights so that losing is not an option. This could mean avoiding fights, talking your way in and out, and exploding through any obstacles when opportunity is presented. The fundamental way for learning how to fight well (e.g. when to fight) is based on experience. So the primary goal of any self-defense training is to give each student experience in a realistic environment and self-protection situation. This can be a wake up call and eye opener to anyone and it CAN change their lives and the way they think about things.

When you ask about training someone not interested in fighting to fight, this is all part of giving people exposer/experience to what is out in the real world. There are alot of people that won't fight and like sheep will go along with anything so long as they think they are not in any real danger... BUT as soon as they are backed in a corner in a life or death situation... EVEN sheep will fight. One of the keys is to educate people so they realize when they realistically are in danger and from what dangers... this allows them to make more educated decisions on when to fight and when to give in or talk their way in or out so that they are not suddenly caught backed in a corner with no option but to die or fight (and then most likely die anyway).

On the other hand, there are self-defense programs that do little to give students experience in a dangerous environment and situation... these types of self-defense programs are not in the same class as the above forementioned ones. They, however, can provide a social outlet for some along with conditioning and basic skill sets. They can be a stepping stone for some that aren't ready for harder training. They are not useless, but at the same time, they should make it clear that this type of training in not as immediately useful if they feel they need self-defense, it is more of a pastime approach. IMHO.

[melb]

Well I already knew I had a different view to those in the industry...they see a $ i see a ? Fighting well..? Picking your fights? Talking? Exploding through? I dont go out there picking and choosing my fights..if I can talk my way out of it I will, if I cant I'll try to win..not complicated. I think your argument about even sheep will fight is flawed..mabe they just cower in a corner? What Im talking about is things such as "educating people to realise when they are realistically in danger"..I mean really what are you talking about? They need someone to train them to walk the other way when a crazy guy starts hassling them? To not walk the city at night by themselves?

[Rebel Wado]

Well I already knew I had a different view to those in the industry...they see a $ i see a ?

That's not what I meant. Most in the self-defense industry are not in it for the money.

A very small percentage of folks teaching self-defense actually make a lot of money at it. Those that do make good money probably do so by selling self-defense videos/books and running seminars than actually teaching regular classes.

Fighting well..? Picking your fights? Talking? Exploding through? I dont go out there picking and choosing my fights..if I can talk my way out of it I will, if I cant I'll try to win..not complicated.

On the contrary it is very complex. Talking your way in can be for getting inside a weapon's range so you can attack. Talking your way out could be to gain distance so that you are outside the range of a weapon so that you can deploy your own weapon. I had a buddy who was not the only one that besides his regular concealed firearm, he kept a backup in his coat pocket. When he got to a point where he was trying to convince some hothead that they really didn't want to fight, he already had his weapon ready to shoot the guy should it be necessary. Even shoot the guy through his coat pocket. This guy was a tough fighter and even unarmed you wouldn't want to mess with him, but he had a job that brought him in dangerous areas.

Talk your way out of a fight is not even the tip of the iceberg. Convincing the other guy that he really doesn't want to fight and getting a weapon is more likely. And what ever you can do, so can the other guy. IMHO.


I think your argument about even sheep will fight is flawed..mabe they just cower in a corner?

Yes sheep do cower. Sheep cower because they are in denial, then when death comes they fight to live in a PANIC, but it is often too late.

Consider if a person actually believes they are going to die, given time they can learn to let go and accept it. Once they accept death, they no longer panic but instead there is a calming coolness. This is at a time they can be at their bravest. A transformation from sheep to sheep dog.

The sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs is from the writings of LTC Dave Grossman. Here is a link to a review of the particular section as it applies to women's self-defense in someone's opinion: http://womensselfdefense.info/56.html (<-- the person that wrote this believes all women or most are sheep)

Here is a link to the excerpt from Dave Grossman's book: http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm (<-- I highly recommend reading this to anyone interested in self-defense that has not already read it. Or even if they have, read it again.)

Personally I do not totally go along with everything as stated, so it should not be taken as my opinion in full. Also mostly because I was introduced to a modified view of sheep, coyotes, wolves, and sheep dogs, but that is another story.

What Im talking about is things such as "educating people to realise when they are realistically in danger"..I mean really what are you talking about? They need someone to train them to walk the other way when a crazy guy starts hassling them? To not walk the city at night by themselves?

I think we are on the same page here. :cool:

[melb]

Rebel, I live in Australia. Our government doesnt allow us to carry firearms..and I agree with their decision (I do have a yearning sometimes to oil a snub nosed 38 though). Living where you do it would be a different matter. Thanks for the heads up..and thanks for taking the effort to reply so comprehensively. I really appreciate it.

[jwt]

What Im saying I guess is that the sd industry is huge and its very similar to the 'join a gym and get fit' craze we have nowadays. Its largely about taking peoples money and giving very little in return.

This is something I don't see in the UK.

In the UK the Martial Arts 'Industry' is huge, but in a small town way. By that I mean there are now thousands of clubs up and down the country, in a vast range of styles and systems. The clubs vary in size and quality, some are well established (with a history of about 40 years) and some are new. However unlike a number of other countries it is very rare to find clubs/organisations with their own training halls. Most just pitch up at Village halls or sports centres for their classes. In similar vein many clubs only make enough money to cover rental costs, using martial arts as a primary source of income is quite rare.

Within this marketplace there are 'self defence' clubs, but they are one of the smallest groups out there. Far more common is finding martial arts clubs that advertise themselves as teaching self defence to recruit new students and then essentially teach their art, not self defence. That, admittedly, is something that annoys me. I would not mind if they devoted half their classes to teaching effective self defence, but when it's their main advertising draw and they teach a half hearted unresearched ad libbed self defence 'application' once in a blue moon - I feel it's just misleading people. :bang:

[Sargeslide]

melb, the way females and males are raised is different, even in this day and age. And I agree with some of what's been said, teaching SD will not make you rich, not even close. I have been doing it for years and I have yet to break even. The other things is, SD is not MA's, totally different. SD is more common sense, fewer techniques and more awareness.

And yes, some people do have to be taught to go the other direction, to not walk down that alley, to avoid that group of men on the corner at 2am. People want to believe that others are generally "good" like they are, unfortunately, this is not reality, and when stuff goes down, if you are not trained to respond, you are screwed. Your hope that people will do the right thing all the time put's you at a disadvantage before anything begins.

People have to be trained to counter these things, especially women.

Sarge

[robertmap]

melb, the way females and males are raised is different, even in this day and age. And I agree with some of what's been said, teaching SD will not make you rich, not even close. I have been doing it for years and I have yet to break even. The other things is, SD is not MA's, totally different. SD is more common sense, fewer techniques and more awareness.

And yes, some people do have to be taught to go the other direction, to not walk down that alley, to avoid that group of men on the corner at 2am. People want to believe that others are generally "good" like they are, unfortunately, this is not reality, and when stuff goes down, if you are not trained to respond, you are screwed. Your hope that people will do the right thing all the time put's you at a disadvantage before anything begins.

People have to be trained to counter these things, especially women.

Sarge

Hi 'Sarge',

I agree with most of what you say although I have a couple of observations:

"the way females and males are raised is different" - From a SD point of view, not all - some females are taught in exactly the same way as males - not nearly enough I grant but some are...

"People want to believe that others are generally 'good'" - I'd suggest that most people ARE GOOD - the problem is that the 'bad, sad or mad' are a very dangerous group and most people have no clue how to deal with an encounter with any of those three types of aggressor.

[Microlamia]

And yes, some people do have to be taught to go the other direction, to not walk down that alley, to avoid that group of men on the corner at 2am. People want to believe that others are generally "good" like they are, unfortunately, this is not reality, and when stuff goes down, if you are not trained to respond, you are screwed. Your hope that people will do the right thing all the time put's you at a disadvantage before anything begins.

Sarge

Agreed.

I remember feeling totally safe to walk around at crazy hours with my hair loose listening to Violator on headphones. Now I wouldn't even walk freely. I always scope around in about a 50 metre radius to look out for anyone who might be dangerous, and always stay near a 'safe haven' such as a supermarket.

[Sargeslide]

Robert, you are very correct, I have trained a few that maybe were tougher than most men I have known, but unfortunately, they are the exception. Most females want to only know enough to stop something from happening so they andthe attacker can walk away without to much trouble. This is not a reality. I never understood it, but I do the best I can to change that mindset.

I have a gal, she will tear you up like shes the devil herself. But she was very different from most that I get, she is my assistant. Best part of it? She looks like a little, pretty, timid girl, never hurt a fly. Well, don't put your hands on her, god help you. I have a buddy, a fellow AikiJJ player, and he is 6'4", 270, and he couldn't hold on to her, he picked her up from behind to carry her off in class and she put her foot on his knee, pushed and spun around to put an elbow through his head, then planted a foot in his crotch. He let go, she dropped to the ground and proceeded to land hit after hit in his mid section, then stomped his foot. He went to the ground and she backed off to a safe distance. His first words were "I like her". It really is the mindset and fight in the dog that wins in those situations. And most times, it has to be shown to them.

More later
Have a great day
Sarge