Anti Kimura Muscles

[Kibbles]

Which exact muscles would you train to heck so that you could overpower a kimura and what exercises could you use to do this?

Yes, I know this is a bad idea.

You'd need strength in a few muscles to overpower two of an experienced grappler's arms and probably also their abdominal and thigh muscles plus body weight.

Yes it is stupid and prevention is better.

Please don't scold me.

[slipthejab]

This thread sounds like something dreamed up by Wing Chun. lol. Anti-grappling is a fail so they jumped onto Anti-Kimura... maybe they thought if they started with only a single technique at a time they might get it to work this time around. :p

Seriously... improving a particular muscle so that you can power out of a kimura is beyond dumb. Not only does the human body not exactly work like that... as in... muscles work in groups relative to one and other... eg. kinetic chain....

It's belies a clear misunderstanding of the mechanical advantages offered by someone who's sunk a kimura in. Biomechanics 101 stuff.

[Kuma]

All you need is two of these bad boys and you'll be kimura-free for life.

http://www.robotliving.com/wp-content/uploads/FrontPage.jpg

[simon s]

Is that Van Zandt's next development?

[WhitePanda]

Um, Kuma, I am not sure that robot is used exactly for what you think it's used for.... ;)

[Kuma]

Oddly, I actually know a really good dirty joke along those lines...

[Freeform]

The answer is Brasilian Jiu Jitsu.

[seiken steve]

Stew smith has some good rehab work you may want to read for after you get your shoulder torn out.

[Microlamia]

Lol dudes, I don't see anything wrong with asking a hypothetical question :)

[tonyv107]

Sure you might be able to build the muscles to help resist a kimura lock but it's pointless. Physics 101 you simple can't generate enough power from you shoulders/arm/back to offset the leverage provided by the attackers arms/hips/boy weight etc. It's like trying to push someone off you in a full mount using only your arms, when you can easily bridge and roll( which is more effective and a safet option). Not trying to scold you but it really is a dumb question.

[Kibbles]

There's a reason I put this in the "What Not To Do" section... but all those answers were boring... Except Kuma's

In any case, the reason I have these oddball questions is that, usually, over the course of trying something strange and apparently ridiculous I end up discovering something else relevant to real-world martial arts.

Again, please don't think I don't know this is a terrible idea

[slipthejab]

Lol dudes, I don't see anything wrong with asking a hypothetical question :)

true true... as they say... no dumb questions (though sometimes we see this pushed to the extreme here at MAP)... only dumb answers!!!

The OP has been pretty explicit about knowing it's silly. But sometimes it's things just as this that lead to very interesting threads and conjecture.

:)

[Kibbles]

Yay


These haven't helped me :confused:

http://thecyberdojo.brinkster.net/arm_front.jpg

http://www.restoresportsmassage.co.uk/images/muscles-of-the-arm-diagram-.jpg

http://hippie.nu/~unicorn/tut/img/basics/humananatomy/arm-muscles.jpeg

[slipthejab]

Anatomical drawings are only ever going to be as good as your understanding of the functionality behind that anatomy. For the issue at hand - kimura it's going to be one of the leverage that a kimura has versus the muscles able to resist a kimura. The whole point is that a kimura properly sunk will 99% of the time beat any attempts to muscle out of it...

Why?

Because the kimura has the mechanical advantage. The leverage is too great once it's sunk for the person who's being submitted to actually counter it much - even if they muscle it... chances are slim once it's set up properly. This is why certain positions are much harder to sink a kimura from because if you're not in a position to apply the proper mechanical leverage then the submission has a much less likely chance of actually working.

What is a great help in understanding this is:

1) actually learning how to do the submission eg. rolling in BJJ or whatever other types of Jiu Jitsu teach the arts teach the kimura or similar variations on a shoulder/elbow lock

http://www.bjj.org/techniques/bjjfighter/gi/side/kimura/
http://www.bjj.org/techniques/bjjfighter/gi/mount/keylock/
http://www.bjj.org/techniques/bjjfighter/gi/side/keylock/


2) basic principles of mechanical advantage and leverage
http://www.dynamicscience.com.au/tester/solutions/hydraulicus/simplemachineslevers4.htm


3) The underlying knowledge of how your body works in terms of kinetic chains and agonist and antagonist muscles is probably the least touched on subject in most martial arts. It's not all that complicated and can open up a whole world of good things for your techniques. College sports have been using sports sciences heavily based on functional anatomy for years... martial arts in many respects lags far behind. Bone up on your functional anatomy and your musculoskeletal system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_musculoskeletal_system) and reap the rewards. Those martial artist who don't are like bakers who want to bake the perfect loaf of bread but don't know anything about dough.

[Amber]

I'm no expert but... somewhere in the shoulder?

Front raises would probably be the way to train those muscles specifically.

Damn, you would need some serious muscle power to pull this off though. A basic one from mount provides alot of leverage; most kimura's from other positions have used the applicants body as a sort of brace, meaning you might be able to resist it for a bit, but you won't be able to escape it.

[Kuma]

This thread seems very akin to asking how to best take a straight right in the face without blocking it. Common sense says, though, learn to block it and you won't get caught with it too often.

[Kibbles]

The whole point is that a kimura properly sunk will 99% of the time beat any attempts to muscle out of it...

This is actually one of the reasons why I asked the question to begin with.



Because the kimura has the mechanical advantage. The leverage is too great once it's sunk for the person who's being submitted to actually counter it much - even if they muscle it... chances are slim once it's set up properly. This is why certain positions are much harder to sink a kimura from because if you're not in a position to apply the proper mechanical leverage then the submission has a much less likely chance of actually working.

Well, ya.



What is a great help in understanding this is:

1) actually learning how to do the submission...

2) basic principles of mechanical advantage and leverage...


I've actually used the kimura. It works pretty well. My ground fighting has been improving.

I actually studied mechanical engineering once upon a time. I know the principles of that



3) The underlying knowledge of how your body works in terms of kinetic chains and agonist and antagonist muscles is probably the least touched on subject in most martial arts. It's not all that complicated and can open up a whole world of good things for your techniques. College sports have been using sports sciences heavily based on functional anatomy for years... martial arts in many respects lags far behind. Bone up on your functional anatomy and your musculoskeletal system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_musculoskeletal_system) and reap the rewards. Those martial artist who don't are like bakers who want to bake the perfect loaf of bread but don't know anything about dough.

My martial arts studies have actually gotten me into studying medicine just to figure things out. It seems I know more about fixing chronic muscular weakness and pain than some of the local doctors these days... Which is not a good thing in my opinion. I'm also trying to figure out a heart/chest compression move that you can perform standing or as you bring someone down to the ground. I currently have no way to verify if the technique will work, or at least none I'd like to try.

I've been looking at that wikipedia page all day while referencing some grappling moves. Whenever I get pressure applied to my arm in the manner of a kimura, I feel a certain muscle being strained as I try to resist it. What bugs me (in the way of having the title of a song at the tip of your tongue) is that I can't identify which muscle it is.

[Kibbles]

I'm no expert but... somewhere in the shoulder?

Front raises would probably be the way to train those muscles specifically.


I'll try to see if those put strain on the same muscles. Come to think of it, I'll try the reverse motion too.



Damn, you would need some serious muscle power to pull this off though. A basic one from mount provides alot of leverage; most kimura's from other positions have used the applicants body as a sort of brace, meaning you might be able to resist it for a bit, but you won't be able to escape it.

More strength than I'll likely have unless I'm fighting a child. :)
I'm thinking though, maybe strength there combined with other motions might prevent a person from putting your arm into a fully... uh... "locked" kimura, maybe.

[Kibbles]

This thread seems very akin to asking how to best take a straight right in the face without blocking it. Common sense says, though, learn to block it and you won't get caught with it too often.

It is I suppose.

I'd like to think of it more as "How could you prepare for the possibility of failing to block or dodge a punch to the face?" though. You'd get a really strange answer if you tried but isn't "What not to do" the section for this sort of thing anyway?

If people didn't try out seemingly pointless things, I think we might not have electricity or aircraft. I'd like to study martial arts in the same spirit of experimentation.

I mean, you can actually find answers to "how to prevent a kimura" by watching failed kimura attempts on TV and looking up wrestling or BJJ techniques or some fighting magazines "what to do" articles. yet what else could you try?

[Kuma]

Technique should still take priority, even when taking a punch (i.e. rolling with it). Trying to strengthen your jaw muscles to just take the punch is a different story. For the kimura, you learn how it's applied and then from there you will know when your opponent is trying to lock one on you and how to avoid it. That's where everything should first go. From there it's the same prescription for everything: physical fitness, repetitions, drills, and sparring. Once someone actually has you in a kimura, it's about the same as getting knocked down with that punch: whatever you could have done to prevent it beforehand you failed to do.

[slipthejab]

I've actually used the kimura. It works pretty well. My ground fighting has been improving.

What do you actually train in that you are employing a kimura? Are you studying Jiu Jitsu of some type? BJJ? Sambo? Judo?


My martial arts studies have actually gotten me into studying medicine just to figure things out. It seems I know more about fixing chronic muscular weakness and pain than some of the local doctors these days... Which is not a good thing in my opinion.

uhh... what?
How do you figure you know lots about fixing "chronic muscular weakness and pain"... reading bits on the internet is not the same as actually studying medicine. In fact it's not anything close at all... if the anatomical images that you've posted are anything to go by... you're a very, very long ways off from studying medicine I can assure you.:rolleyes:

I'm also trying to figure out a heart/chest compression move that you can perform standing or as you bring someone down to the ground. I currently have no way to verify if the technique will work, or at least none I'd like to try.

Seriously. What art are you training again?

I've been looking at that wikipedia page all day while referencing some grappling moves. Whenever I get pressure applied to my arm in the manner of a kimura, I feel a certain muscle being strained as I try to resist it. What bugs me (in the way of having the title of a song at the tip of your tongue) is that I can't identify which muscle it is.

uhh... wait just a minute ago you said you were better than your local doctors at fixing 'chronic muscle weakness and pain' and yet it's taken you all day looking at Wikipedia to figure out where the pain is coming from during a kimura?!? Big hint... directly from Wikipedia:

An armlock in grappling is a single or double joint lock that hyperextends, hyperflexes or hyperrotates the elbow joint and/or shoulder joint. An armlock that hyperflexes or hyperrotates the shoulder joint is referred to as a shoulder lock, and an armlock that hyperextends the elbow joint is called an armbar. Depending on the joint flexibility and integrity of a person, armlocks that hyperrotate the shoulder joint can also hyperrotate the elbow joint, and vice versa.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armlock#Keylock

Most likely with the kimura you're going to be looking at damage to the rotator cuff.

[holyheadjch]

This thread is epic.

Busting out of kimuras. Heart compression techniques (really?). All we're missing is a chi blast and a dim mak executed with the big toe.

[Kwan Jang]

What people are trying to say is that you are taking the wrong approach to this. I was a national-level strength athlete and have performed military presses with 405 lbs. for a double and benched 545 for 4x (raw-no lifting suit). Even I can't muscle out of an effectively applied key lock, kimura or hammer lock by strength alone. Heavy work on military presses, clean and press, upright rows and rear lateral raises may strengthen the structure, but at most, it will give you some "slack on the line".

There are technical counters to these variations though and that is your best bet. If caught in either mount or side mount w/ the arm up, bridge to change their leverage and explode both of your arms above your head, clasp your hands (I prefer the "strong grip") and pull your hands back down to center. If your arm is down in a side mount, bridge and shoot your hand down and grab behind your knee, then use the knee to feed your hand to your free hand so that you can bring it back to center. For these types of attacks, your opponent is trying to isolate the joint away from the rest of the body; to counter, you must change their position and bring it back to center so that the joint is safe.

If it's an attack from the open guard, once again, you need to break down their position and reinforce the arm and shoulder. This position gives you a few more options including grabbing the back of your knee, shorts or your opposite hand (like a tricep pose in bb) or as a last resort, you can try to roll out. In this version, you can often use your weight to help break them down and improve your position including to half guard and even mount.

[Kibbles]

Technique should still take priority, even when taking a punch (i.e. rolling with it).

Well, ya. It does. This is just extra stuff. I like to try and over-prepare. For example I train to block punches in the tai chi method (My main art currently), then train to hard block, condition my arm to take blows old hard style method, and I've tried a bit of iron shirt chi kung just in case I get hit... also I let people punch me with increasing strength until I feel I can't take the next blow, to build up my tolerance. Same with this kimura thing.

[Kibbles]

What do you actually train in that you are employing a kimura? Are you studying Jiu Jitsu of some type? BJJ? Sambo? Judo?

I used to do judo and am now learning wrestling from a friend who used to wrestle in college. Cross training.


uhh... what?
How do you figure you know lots about fixing "chronic muscular weakness and pain"... reading bits on the internet is not the same as actually studying medicine. In fact it's not anything close at all... if the anatomical images that you've posted are anything to go by... you're a very, very long ways off from studying medicine I can assure you.:rolleyes:


Maybe I worded that wrong. Studying is different from taking up medicine. My mother is a nurse and so I got a lot of informal training earlier. Now, I'm studying to "increase" my knowledge of medicine. I say I know more about that specific topic because I normally know what to do for such things and recently someone came to me for help with chronic weakness in the leg that doctors could not seem to do much about. She believes what I have advised (freaking basic stuff) has helped more than the 3 or 4 doctor's she's been to. I don't advertise or charge anything and don't try to replace doctors but there was this doctor who prescribed a daily hot compress to someone with muscle inflammation, aggravating it for 2 weeks. I had that person try not applying the compress for 2 days. No more pain and swelling and normal walking in 4 days. They got a new doctor. I'm not good. Just a lot of idiot doctors over here.

I do know my knowledge of medicine is very very limited. Why are we talking about me? This is off topic.



uhh... wait just a minute ago you said you were better than your local doctors at fixing 'chronic muscle weakness and pain' and yet it's taken you all day looking at Wikipedia to figure out where the pain is coming from during a kimura?!? Big hint... directly from Wikipedia:


The doctors can be really bad over here. prescribing 12 medicines to a pregnant woman causing some sort of immune deficiency for example.


Most likely with the kimura you're going to be looking at damage to the rotator cuff.

This actually helped. Thank you. I wish we could be more on topic though and focus on the stupid topic rather than delving on how stupid the topic is or how stupid the stupid person who thought up the stupid topic is.

[Kibbles]

This thread is epic.

Busting out of kimuras. Heart compression techniques (really?). All we're missing is a chi blast and a dim mak executed with the big toe.

Heart compression = compressing the heart. Imagine what would happen if you performed cardiopulmonary resuscitation on a live person. I'm glad you're entertained though.

[Kibbles]

What people are trying to say is that you are taking the wrong approach to this.

I hope you know I am very conscious of this. The idea is to practice not getting taken down, not getting caught on the ground, grappling as good as the other guy, countering kimura attempts (among other things), and also exercising those muscles. I try to be comprehensive.


I was a national-level strength athlete and have performed military presses with 405 lbs. for a double and benched 545 for 4x (raw-no lifting suit). Even I can't muscle out of an effectively applied key lock, kimura or hammer lock by strength alone. Heavy work on military presses, clean and press, upright rows and rear lateral raises may strengthen the structure, but at most, it will give you some "slack on the line".

I hear ya and earnest thanks for the kimura counter advice.

[holyheadjch]

Heart compression = compressing the heart. Imagine what would happen if you performed cardiopulmonary resuscitation on a live person. I'm glad you're entertained though.

I imagine they'd punch you in the face. That's certainly what I'd do.

[Kibbles]

I imagine they'd punch you in the face. That's certainly what I'd do.

That technique I'm trying to come up with is up too close for that. They'd have to wrestle me. And, yes, I'm aware the theoretical maneuver could prove to be simply impossible and might get me punched in the face. It's a trial and error thing that I'm trying to figure out how to even try safely. Good luck to me.

If it were to work though, you might be able to stop someone's heart in the middle of a fight. Instant win and all that.

[holyheadjch]

That technique I'm trying to come up with is up too close for that. They'd have to wrestle me. And, yes, I'm aware the theoretical maneuver could prove to be simply impossible and might get me punched in the face. It's a trial and error thing that I'm trying to figure out how to even try safely. Good luck to me.

If it were to work though, you might be able to stop someone's heart in the middle of a fight. Instant win and all that.
Ignoring the fact that you'd never get the leverage on a standing person to perform a full chest compression and that a single chest compression is extremely unlike to stop a person's heart, you still have to deal with the fact that such a manoeuvre would require you to have at least one of your hands free, opening up one side of your body to attack, so whilst you're fondling my breasts, I'd be tenderising one side of your face.

[Kibbles]

Ignoring the fact that you'd never get the leverage on a standing person to perform a full chest compression and that a single chest compression is extremely unlike to stop a person's heart, you still have to deal with the fact that such a manoeuvre would require you to have at least one of your hands free, opening up one side of your body to attack, so whilst you're fondling my breasts, I'd be tenderising one side of your face.

Actually it would look kinda like this.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd396/Meowaffles/Pushcopy.jpg

Leverage is a big problem.

I'm more concerned with getting bitten or into a headbutting contest than being punched.

Obviously, it needs a lot of work.

Surprisingly, it's not that hard to get in that close even in combat conditions. Easier than a double leg tackle. Just trying to figure out this possibly pointless move has helped me learn more about my stand-up throws so it's not really time wasted.

[holyheadjch]

A punch is not a chest compression.

[Microlamia]

What people are trying to say is that you are taking the wrong approach to this. I was a national-level strength athlete and have performed military presses with 405 lbs. for a double and benched 545 for 4x (raw-no lifting suit). Even I can't muscle out of an effectively applied key lock, kimura or hammer lock by strength alone. Heavy work on military presses, clean and press, upright rows and rear lateral raises may strengthen the structure, but at most, it will give you some "slack on the line".


Holy poo...

...I remember being pleased with myself for benching about 120lbs....545 is just cool O_O

[Kuma]

Actually it would look kinda like this.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd396/Meowaffles/Pushcopy.jpg

Leverage is a big problem.

I'm more concerned with getting bitten or into a headbutting contest than being punched.

Obviously, it needs a lot of work.

Surprisingly, it's not that hard to get in that close even in combat conditions. Easier than a double leg tackle. Just trying to figure out this possibly pointless move has helped me learn more about my stand-up throws so it's not really time wasted.

That's very fanciful thinking. Watch Kyokushin sparring on Youtube and see how hard those guys are routinely blasting each other in the chest, to the point where sometimes when you get hit you actually feel your chest move in slightly. Yet somehow they aren't dropping dead left and right. I have also personally had my xiphoid process seriously injured during kumite and also did not drop over dead.

Thoughts like these are why people need to quit theorizing and go and actually bang it out with someone so they see how real fighting actually works.

[Freeform]

Is this debate still going?

[seiken steve]

Would a chest palm be more relevant here?

Please, I urge you, learn wrestling from a real coach, and take up kyokushin, muay Thai, boxing, MMA or enshin, any will do, and see what it's really like being hit and hitting someone.
There's no time or point in standing CPR or tres minor flexing, no matter how much your seratus is prepared to resist ONE LOCK it won't make a difference you just hit them very hard, try to remember your footwork and get hit pretty damn hard.
Time spent doing endless reps for anti kimura strength is just time you could spend sparring, dead lifting, reading or anything other than preparing to defend ONE MOVE.
It's called training economy and yours sucks dude.

[Kibbles]

A punch is not a chest compression.

That's not meant to be a punch

[Kibbles]

That's very fanciful thinking. Watch Kyokushin sparring on Youtube and see how hard those guys are routinely blasting each other in the chest, to the point where sometimes when you get hit you actually feel your chest move in slightly. Yet somehow they aren't dropping dead left and right. I have also personally had my xiphoid process seriously injured during kumite and also did not drop over dead.

Thoughts like these are why people need to quit theorizing and go and actually bang it out with someone so they see how real fighting actually works.

I've been in actual fights. Some were real ones on the street. Most of the week I train in a normal manner. This is what I do when I'm bored.

Again, it's really just random musing, like trying to do stunts with a bike rather than just biking or trying to figure out how to climb walls with your bare hands (I never thought it possible til I saw it).

Also, it is not meant to be a strike but a push upward into the diaphragm while holding the opponent in place with the other arm. The maneuver itself is not the idea but the rather how to compress (Not strike) the chest cavity deeply in a fight.

[Hannibal]

Actually it would look kinda like this.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd396/Meowaffles/Pushcopy.jpg

Leverage is a big problem.

Leverage is the LEAST of your problems

I'm more concerned with getting bitten or into a headbutting contest than being punched.

As you should be - I would have bitten half your face off by the time your hand was up the middle

Obviously, it needs a lot of work.

No it doesn't - I can save you a lot of work with four words

STOP DOING THIS CRAP

Wasn't that easy?

Surprisingly, it's not that hard to get in that close even in combat conditions. Easier than a double leg tackle. Just trying to figure out this possibly pointless move has helped me learn more about my stand-up throws so it's not really time wasted.

Yes it is - you have wasted time theorising about a technique that wil never (and in this case I do mean NEVER) work when you could have been doing something more constructive.

Like driving a sharp stick into your left ear for example




Also, Having read all your posts I am calling shenanigans

[Kibbles]

Would a chest palm be more relevant here?

It's supposed to be that


Please, I urge you, learn wrestling from a real coach, and take up kyokushin, muay Thai, boxing, MMA or enshin, any will do, and see what it's really like being hit and hitting someone.

I'd be thinking up this crap even if I had a real coach.

I've been in fights against boxers and MMAers among people of other disciplines... and maybe one enshin guy but I'm not really certain if that was an enshin guy. I would actually love to spar with a practitioner of muai thai or kyokushin... and maybe a bull like Mas Oyama some day. I'll probably die against the bull though but at least I know that much.


There's no time or point in standing CPR or tres minor flexing, no matter how much your seratus is prepared to resist ONE LOCK it won't make a difference you just hit them very hard, try to remember your footwork and get hit pretty damn hard.


This is an awful simplistic view of martial arts. Is this your training philosophy? Do you dodge? Do you throw? Do you reposition?

Also, what do you mean no time? I'm not racing against anything. The worst that will happen is the technique never materializes and I learn something else interesting along the way.


Time spent doing endless reps for anti kimura strength is just time you could spend sparring, dead lifting, reading or anything other than preparing to defend ONE MOVE.

It's called training economy and yours sucks dude.

Everyone seems to assume a lot about other people's fighting experiences and actual training methodology online. I train weekdays after work (in a very normal manner), spar whenever possible and only spend maybe 2 hours a week (usually on a weekend) trying to get these particularly weird ideas to work. And no I wouldn't try them in a real fight unless I thoroughly worked them out and knew that they were useful.

The only one that's materialized is a relatively simple feint and punch technique but it hasn't failed me yet.

[Hannibal]

It's supposed to be that



I'd be thinking up this crap even if I had a real coach.

I've been in fights against boxers and MMAers among people of other disciplines... and maybe one enshin guy but I'm not really certain if that was an enshin guy. I would actually love to spar with a practitioner of muai thai or kyokushin... and maybe a bull like Mas Oyama some day. I'll probably die against the bull though but at least I know that much.



This is an awful simplistic view of martial arts. Is this your training philosophy? Do you dodge? Do you throw? Do you reposition?

Also, what do you mean no time? I'm not racing against anything. The worst that will happen is the technique never materializes and I learn something else interesting along the way.



Everyone seems to assume a lot about other people's fighting experiences and actual training methodology online. I train weekdays after work (in a very normal manner), spar whenever possible and only spend maybe 2 hours a week (usually on a weekend) trying to get these particularly weird ideas to work. And no I wouldn't try them in a real fight unless I thoroughly worked them out and knew that they were useful.

The only one that's materialized is a relatively simple feint and punch technique but it hasn't failed me yet.

SHENANIGANS! SHENANIGANS! SHENANIGANS!:bang:

[Kibbles]

STOP DOING THIS CRAP



Hi Hannibal. I'm seriously trying to get it to work but not expecting it to. No joke. Yes, I'm weird.

What sort of threads are supposed to go in the "What Not to Do" section anyhow?

[Kibbles]

SHENANIGANS! SHENANIGANS! SHENANIGANS!:bang:

Whatever man. I guess no one experiments these days.

[Hannibal]

Hi Hannibal. I'm seriously trying to get it to work but not expecting it to. No joke. Yes, I'm weird.

What sort of threads are supposed to go in the "What Not to Do" section anyhow?

A) Then you are wasting your time and quite honestly bandwith. No-one here is going to buy into your delusions so stop trying to seek out praise or approval and go to a board that might buy into such BS

and

B) Threads that are asinine and borderline trolling

[Hannibal]

Whatever man. I guess no one experiments these days.

Yes they do - just not with complete crap like you are suggesting.

You might as well try to launch a sonic-boom

[Kibbles]

A) Then you are wasting your time and quite honestly bandwith. No-one here is going to buy into your delusions so stop trying to seek out praise or approval and go to a board that might buy into such BS

and

B) Threads that are asinine and borderline trolling

Now this sounds like trolling. People could just let the topic die.

[Hannibal]

Bye then.....

[Kuma]

I've been in actual fights. Some were real ones on the street.

What does that have to do with this?

Again, it's really just random musing, like trying to do stunts with a bike rather than just biking or trying to figure out how to climb walls with your bare hands (I never thought it possible til I saw it).

Fighting is different from sports, simply because in actuality it's no game.

Also, it is not meant to be a strike but a push upward into the diaphragm while holding the opponent in place with the other arm. The maneuver itself is not the idea but the rather how to compress (Not strike) the chest cavity deeply in a fight.

I'm going to say I don't think it's going to work quite as well as you think it might. Think of all the knee strikes a person can take to the same area while being controlled and actually pulled into them, yet somehow their heart isn't stopping.

[Kibbles]

What does that have to do with this?

That's just my response to:
"Thoughts like these are why people need to quit theorizing and go and actually bang it out with someone so they see how real fighting actually works."


Fighting is different from sports, simply because in actuality it's no game.

I'm just saying I know how fighting works, sports or otherwise. I've been in real fights on the street for my life. I'm still alive. Not boasting or anything. Just trying to explain that.


I'm going to say I don't think it's going to work quite as well as you think it might. Think of all the knee strikes a person can take to the same area while being controlled and actually pulled into them, yet somehow their heart isn't stopping.

Fair enough and good point.

[Kuma]

That's just my response to:
"Thoughts like these are why people need to quit theorizing and go and actually bang it out with someone so they see how real fighting actually works."

What's the difference between "actual fights" and "real ones on the street"? That makes no sense.

I'm just saying I know how fighting works, sports or otherwise. I've been in real fights on the street for my life. I'm still alive. Not boasting or anything. Just trying to explain that.

You seem to have some very unrealistic views regarding your training then despite your claimed experiences.

[Hannibal]

Exactly - SHENANIGANS!!!!

[Freeform]

I think I smell something...

[seiken steve]

I


I would actually love to spar with a practitioner of muai thai or kyokushin... and maybe a bull like Mas Oyama some day. I'll probably die against the bull though but at least I know that much.





i think this pretty much sums it up.

[Kibbles]

What's the difference between "actual fights" and "real ones on the street"? That makes no sense.


Sorry. I worded that poorly. That statement was not meant to imply there was a difference.



You seem to have some very unrealistic views regarding your training then despite your claimed experiences.

Can't prove to you my experiences. All I'm saying is people should try not to assume too much about others and the things I post in "What not to do" are really things people shouldn't do and I know this.

And no I have not been devoting hours upon hours to exercise "anti-kimura muscles" as some might think, just because I thought it up. I'm really more wondering if I can incorporate strengthening those muscles in my training routine because those particular muscles seem to be somewhat neglected through the course of normal exercise and may buy me a few more seconds against one of the more popular grappling techniques.

I feel people overreact... Well, not you. Other people.


Rather than saying "that's a bad idea" and calmly exploring why it is a bad idea, they start going on about how the poster supposedly trains and what the poster supposedly knows about martial arts or fighting and such. And this is a common trend that really doesn't lead to an answer to the question.

[Hannibal]

Kibbles you have been told so many times that it is a ponintless endeavour yet you still press on with asinine assertions as if on some kind of crusade against orthodoxy.

We "assume" as you put it because NOTHING you say suggest in any way that you have ANY experience of combat. I don't care how many times you claim street effectiveness, your words show that your are clueless about certain realities that have been empirically proven.

You do not need to re-invent the wheel, which is exactly what you are trying to do. What makes it worse is that you do not listen to people far more qualified, experienced and competent than yourself.

[Kibbles]

Kibbles you have been told so many times that it is a ponintless endeavour yet you still press on with asinine assertions as if on some kind of crusade against orthodoxy.

We "assume" as you put it because NOTHING you say suggest in any way that you have ANY experience of combat. I don't care how many times you claim street effectiveness, your words show that your are clueless about certain realities that have been empirically proven.

You do not need to re-invent the wheel, which is exactly what you are trying to do. What makes it worse is that you do not listen to people far more qualified, experienced and competent than yourself.


I'm listening to Kuma. He's polite and he makes sense.

Also, crusade against orthodoxy? I just went to "what not to do" to ask questions about things that no one would normally do.

And what does my being combat capable or not have to do with the question? (I'm surprised it was even brought up) It's a question about which muscles are in opposition to a kimura motion. And what assertions am I actually making? That this will work? I'm not telling anyone that, or that they should try this, or that anyone should even train this way. If it's a pointless endeavor, what harm could it do to you or anyone here? Some people like to stack cards. I feel that's pointless but I don't get on anyone's case over it.

[Kuma]

A kimura's a joint lock, so it's more attacking the actual weak points of the arm and shoulder than going up against the muscles of the arm and shoulder. I don't think any amount of strength training will really add a great deal of resistance to a properly applied kimura, and that's exactly why it's done the way it is: so a smaller person can use it effectively against a bigger, stronger opponent.

[Kibbles]

Someone here should know this. I hear that kimura injuries are usually to the elbow joint itself. Is this true?
(And no I'm not planning on elbow strengthening either. Just asking.)

[seiken steve]

I'm going to humour you.
My grappling knowledge is pants so I'm going of this image. http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://sfukvision.homestead.com/files/submissions2_kimura.jpg&imgrefurl=http://sfuksubmissionfightinguk.yuku.com/topic/2123&usg=__aqwUJ4gnJxH0dL1cdxjKy_2tMB8=&h=324&w=418&sz=31&hl=en&start=16&zoom=1&tbnid=3st98SAKVT3XDM:&tbnh=153&tbnw=195&ei=MKhbTbH4M8u54gb3gtWADA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkimura%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dof f%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D768%26bih%3D1 024%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C1486&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=360&vpy=1439&dur=2954&hovh=198&hovw=255&tx=166&ty=235&oei=I6hbTYP6NIbNhAeJrfziDA&page=2&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:16&biw=768&bih=1024

I would say the tres minor, tres major, serratus antirior rear and to a small degree a little bit of lat. but you know that because you study medicine right?

I still think it is pointless and you're waisting time.

[Kibbles]

I'm going to humour you.
My grappling knowledge is pants so I'm going of this image. http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://sfukvision.homestead.com/files/submissions2_kimura.jpg&imgrefurl=http://sfuksubmissionfightinguk.yuku.com/topic/2123&usg=__aqwUJ4gnJxH0dL1cdxjKy_2tMB8=&h=324&w=418&sz=31&hl=en&start=16&zoom=1&tbnid=3st98SAKVT3XDM:&tbnh=153&tbnw=195&ei=MKhbTbH4M8u54gb3gtWADA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkimura%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dof f%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D768%26bih%3D1 024%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C1486&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=360&vpy=1439&dur=2954&hovh=198&hovw=255&tx=166&ty=235&oei=I6hbTYP6NIbNhAeJrfziDA&page=2&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:16&biw=768&bih=1024

I would say the tres minor, tres major, serratus antirior rear and to a small degree a little bit of lat. but you know that because you study medicine right?

I still think it is pointless and you're waisting time.


Thank you for humouring me nonetheless.

I wouldn't have any access to any actual accurate wrestling/BJJ/MMA injury data but I found some accounts of the injuries caused by a kimura (Below)

------
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080727164233AAPAYnV

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/anyone-had-kimura-injury-1143356/

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=126093113

http://www.muscleandstrength.com/forum/injuries/51694-left-shoulder-elbow-wrist-injury.html

Edit: Oh, kimura's kimura broke helio gracie's elbow
http://judoinfo.com/new/alphabetical-list/people-in-judo/549-masahiko-kimura-1917-1993
-----

Apparently, the supraspinatus is also affected (or maybe mostly)

Also, if the serratus anterior is affected, the shoulder blade is being pulled out of place? That would absolutely suck.

So I guess that would be the infraspinatus and Latissimus Dorsi getting it for the reverse kimura.

There are a lot of notations of elbow injury. Which leads to my (hopefully) final question on this. Would this mean that strength in the muscles of the "kimura victim" can, rather than mitigating damage, even contribute to tearing or dislocation of the joints involved? (Elbow in particular maybe?)

[JaxMMA]

Muscles are overrated. Use chi.

[Kuma]

Mister Fantastic laughs at kimuras.

http://www.fantastic-four.nl/mister%20copy.gif

[seiken steve]

Chi is over rated use CPR

[Microlamia]

Muscles are overrated. Use chi.

No, use poo. *flings poo*

[FRT]

I find that the best Physical aspect to defeat a kimura is flexibility.

However obvious it may sound, the very first and best thing is skill.

Train Harder!