Are we are all slaves?

[Don Davies]

The media has done a good job. Try telling
anyone they're not free, try going as far as
telling them we're all effectively slaves, and
they will probably think you are an idiot or
worse. The media has got far too many of us
believing that we're in full control of our own
lives and that work is a necessary reality of
life despite the obviousness of the truth. And
in an ironic twist, leaders around the world
constantly tell their people they are free and it
seems many really swallow it.
It is my hope that this article will make it
clear that we aren't free by any sense of the
word, indeed that we are slaves and most of us
are exploited, to show exactly why and how
this is so. I will, however, leave the possible
methods to achieve our liberation for another
time.
The day to day reality for the vast majority
of us is simply about surviving. Apart from the
very rich, we have virtually no choice but to go
to work (or school - the primer for work) each
day, to work our a$$es off, get ordered around
by bosses and come home to ready ourselves
for the next day. Occasionally, a few make it
big or get jobs they really enjoy and these are
held up as examples to us all that if we only
work hard enough we can get there too but for
most people life is reduced to simply surviving.
Welcome to capitalism - the dominant
economic system imposed on us all. Paraded
around by those at the top as being a system
based on freedom and choice and, so they say,
since it bet communism we might as well just
be happy with it. But capitalism only
guarantees freedom and choice to those at the
very top and for most it is the exact opposite -
for most it guarantees exploitation and
oppression.
Capitalism is not very complicated despite
what some may have you believe. Essentially
it is a system based on private property.
Capitalism is much more than just the market
- it is a system where a few who own the most
essential things to our survival (like land,
resources, factories, information and now even
life) put before us a choice: work for them or
starve.
The vast majority simply does not have the
money to buy land to grow food on, or
plantations to build homes let alone to have
access to everything else necessary for their
survival but a small amount of people do. This
situation gives that elite considerable power
over everyone else - if we wish to live (ie. use
the resources they own) we must agree to the
terms of that elite. That elite, also known as
capitalists (but parasites will do just fine!),
force those without to work for them. The
capitalists take virtually everything the workers
produce for them and give back only a small
amount - and in a "free market" (which is so
espoused by the corporate media today) that
amount is usually only enough for those
workers to stay alive and return the next day
to work for them again.
In past times, people have been forced into
slavery and exploitation through shackles and
whips but today it is through the threat of
starvation.
The force required to maintain this slavery
is provided by the state. The state and
capitalism are not separate - they are
essentially the same thing. The state promotes
the illusion that it is quite separate from
capitalism. Indeed, it promotes the illusion that
it is actually there to provide security and
guarantee people's rights. But the state and
capitalism developed together, with the state
enforcing capitalists' ownership of private
property from the start. The state has always
provided capitalists with the force to allow
them to exploit the vast majority of people with
its police, its armies and its so-called "justice
system."
Nation states go to great lengths to secure
the interests of the capitalists - from repression
at home with often bloody consequences to
sending droves of its young people into other
areas of the world to fight and die.All the while
it strives to maintain an image of serving the
people, instead of ruling them - the farce that
is representative democracy has probably been
the most successful of these with its aim being
to get people to think they have a real say all
the while policies remain essentially unchanged
or worsen.

This exploitation has, of course, not gone
unnoticed. From the start is has been resisted.
Just a few major instances of resistance include
the Paris Commune of 1871, the Russian
Revolution of 1917, the Spanish Civil War of
1936, the French revolt of 1968 and the
countless forces of resistance around the world
today trying to stem the tide of globalisation
and neo-liberal policies. New Zealand too has
had its share of resistance like the 1951
Waterfront Lockout. But the state and its forces
have so far beaten us back each time - the
parasites are not willingly going to give up their
positions of power.
The aim of these rebellions has always been
a free society where there is no exploitation or
oppression. The root of the problem is authority
and the centralisation of power which allows
this exploitation in the first place - and that
does not just include capitalism and the state,
but patriarchy, racism, homophobia and every
other vestige of control. Those rebelling sought
and still seek an egalitarian society where free
people live as equals and come together
voluntarily to meet each others desires - in a

word, anarchy.
Anarchy quite literally means "no rulers"
and has nothing to do with its negative
connotations cooked up by the media. In place
of rulers there would be direct control of our
own lives. Horizontal, non-authoritarian
decision making processes would replace the
whims of the parasites. Having being pushed
almost into oblivion in modern capitalism,
communities would reappear and people within
those communities would cater for their own
needs, not those of elites. Private property
would be replaced with communally owned
property used for the needs of all. Police, only
being necessary in oppressive and exploitative
societies, would cease to exist and other more
rehabilitative measures could be employed by
communities to deal with anti-social behaviour.
Most importantly, people would not be forced
to just survive from day today but would be
free to make of their own lives as their desires
led them.
As anarchists we continue the struggle for
our liberation, for that day when this system
will be overthrown. We know that any lasting
change that could bring about anarchy would
have to be based on popular struggle - a small
vanguard leading the rest of society into
freedom would be self-defeating and would do
nothing but perpetuate authority and the
centralisation of power. If we are to be
successful our means and ends must be in line
with each other - those who use authoritarian
means (such as those who seek to create a
"workers state") will be left with nothing but
oppression and exploitation. Change must
therefore come from the grassroots level. We
seek to make people aware of what's going on
and what they can do about it and hope that
they will resist alongside us. Let us take our
lives back from them!
At this stage of history, either...the general
population will take control of its own destiny
and will concern itself with community interests
guided by values of solidarity and sympathy
and concern for others or alternately there will
be no destiny for anyone to control. - Noam
Chomsky
- Torrance Hodgson


I believe this to be mostly true, there are some people who enjoy there job and there is a lot of people who hate there job but regardless the working class is being exploited. Any other thoughts or opinions?

[hwardo]

:Alien:

We're all slaves of the greys.

[morphus]

Non of the systems in the world work, as in work for everyone.

There is always a sixth finger that won't fit in the glove.
But getting five fingers in is better than four, better than three.

Capitalism is whats happening (not for everyone) at the mo'

The future might bring a better fitting glove. Don't disguard the present glove(even if it is a cheap knitted one) before you've got a nice new silk one.

Have you not heard of glove theory before? :D

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

All political/economic systems are flawed. But I don't see that the people living in non-capitalist systems are any better off. And I think the chance of anarchy resulting in a perfectly cooperative society are about as slim as finding life forms identical to our own on Mars.

I'll choose to make the most of my cheap, knitted gloves, and be glad that I have a fully functional pair of gloves to wear ;) (thanks, morphus!)

[Knight_Errant]

Glove theory? cool. That's a good way of putting it. People always told it to me in two words: "Grow up". I'll remember that one.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Wouldn't anarchy be nice, yes. Everyone voluntarily being nice to one another.

Unfortunately people aren't nice, all you need is one person and the whole system breaks down.

Hell, if the whole world turned pacifist I could conquer it with a teaspoon.

[Kwajman]

My father owned a business. He forced no one to work for him. If you didn't want to work for him, or didn't like the terms of his business, you sought work elsewhere. He was a man who lived in utter poverty growing up. Not a penny of government assistance was accepted by him or his parents. He worked extremely hard, lived a very frugal young adulthood and bought a building and began a machine shop. He left not a single dime to me or paid a dime in tuition for college. I worked 3 jobs a week to put myself through school.

Explain to me, why I should let my efforts, my money, or my time, go to pay for children born out of wedlock? Women with so little self esteem, they pump out baby after baby in hopes of snagging a man. Men who DON'T want to work because they can get just as much money from the government. Why should I help drug addicts who only care about their next fix? Why should I care about people who would rather get public assistance than get a job. I see people who complain about not having enough money to live on, then spend a fortune on things like cigarettes and alcohol at the market. I don't feel an ounce of pity for them.

I see illegal immigrants who are treated better than our own citizens by our government. Crimes by immigrants are rarely prosecuted because of not wanting to be called 'racist' by the minorities. My town now has a mayor who cripples the police into not even stopping illegals during their national holiday 'back home' because it might cause MORE flareups of unrest.

I'm sorry, I feel we make our own opportunities, the idea that, THE MAN is holding you back is a bunch of hogwash. The old communist/socialist ideals are so outdated and disproven it almost an embarrassment that someone would hold them up in an attempt of reviving them as any kind of 'utopian' society.

Your examples of revolts of the have-nots against the capitalistic haves to ME, are examples of people not willing to shut up, work, and do the job they want to do. The fact they are unwilling to go to school and improve themselves shouldn't affect me. Yes there are ALWAYS exceptions to every rule. But give me one example of an exception, and I can give you 10 that will show you the typical rule of example.

You may use the example of a blue collar worker just trying to live. BS, if he can't live on what he earns, they maybe he shouldn't get married and have 4-5 kids he can't afford. Maybe he shouldn't get that car he can't pay for and ride the bus instead, maybe his wife should stop having babies and get a job. It is so simple, if you can't afford your lifestyle, THEN SIMPLIFY your life!! I'm not rich by any standard. I am a single father of four children that I CAN afford to clothe, feed, and house, I give up a lot to take care of them. I rarely go out on a date because of what I feel I need to do to take care of my children.
I don't mean to get on my soapbox, and hope I haven't offended anyone, but thats a bunch of bunk, capitalism vs socialism/communism.

[Terry Matthes]

I dunno about you guys but for me getting an education is what I want to do. I want to do it because it will let me do what I enjoy doing and get paid for it. If you love what you do your job is hardly work ;) I think we are lucky to live in countries where educations is so avaliable.

There is also a lot to be said about the other side of the fence. What about the idea that you use the government? You dont' necessarily work for your employer, they contract you as a worker. If you don't like the terms of that contract find another job. The bank doesn't use me to make money more than I use them to take out loans for school. These relationships are mutually benificial.

The more you put into life the more you get out, funny how that works :p

[Jack]

I pretty much agree with that. I am so very angry at the way things are, and its as if the only way to survive is to accept the awful way things are.

[Kwajman]

Good points Terry.

[Mrs Owt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don Davies
That elite, also known as
capitalists (but parasites will do just fine!),


Hey, I resemble that remark!:D I guess I have some sympathy for those who feel trapped by "the system" and disdain for those who abuse it. I am a very small manufacturer and I guess I could be considered one of those parasites but I have always made it my goal to be a good employer. I have only hired mothers who otherwise could not work and allowed them to bring their children who were pre-school age or sick. It is just accepted in my coompany that you come in after the kids are off to school and you leave when so that you can meet them at the door on their way home from school. I have always been the first to say go get them when they were sick at school. Even for those employees that had worked for me for less than a year I allowed extensive vacation time and many other perks that they would not get anywhere else. So if that makes me a parasite, well sorry but I figure I make 6 employees lives better than they would have been if they had to work retail or for some huge nameless corporation.

I suppose if I were one of those brave crusading types I would rebel against the system and share all profits equally with employees but the realities are that is imppossible. They don't have the overhead, they don't have the liability. Their houses aren't on the line in a litigious society. Frankly the sleepless nights and grief from suppliers, customers and other employees are what I get paid the extra for. Parasite is a harsh word and I would like to think that I have done what I can to mitigate the unpleasantness of "having" to work. That is the curse of a non-subsistance culture. We want more so we have to work for more. Who's fault is that?:confused:

[Capt Ann]

Ah, yes... the poor, downcast of our society--in the US, these poor, underpriveleged ones on average own at least one color television set, have two or more telephones, own at least one car, have preventative health care and routine immunizations for their children, live in a single family dwelling or apartment with two or more bedrooms, have enough clothes for their children that the clothes are outgrown before they are worn out, have sufficient food, and have free and compulsory education for their children, paid through high school.

THIS is the legacy of Capitalism: Opportunity.

Capitalism works because it does NOT reward control, but it rewards SERVICE. When you grow food and sell it, you receive money because you are providing a service for someone else, and the amount of money you receive is directly related to the value placed on the amount of service you give. Get an education and become a doctor.....you can serve more people, provide a service that is more highly prized, and therefore, EARN more money. Start your own company so that you manufacture goods that people want to buy--you are now serving even more people, and you will EARN even more money. In short, do you want to earn more money in a capitalist society? Stop whining about those "haves", and get about the business of serving other people.

[Don Davies]

Originally posted by Terry Matthes
I dunno about you guys but for me getting an education is what I want to do. I want to do it because it will let me do what I enjoy doing and get paid for it. If you love what you do your job is hardly work ;) I think we are lucky to live in countries where educations is so avaliable.



I agree. I just don't like people who think money is the most important thing and think they are better than people who would rather do a job for fun than money.

[Don Davies]

Originally posted by Capt Ann
Capitalism works because it does NOT reward control, but it rewards SERVICE. When you grow food and sell it, you receive money because you are providing a service for someone else, and the amount of money you receive is directly related to the value placed on the amount of service you give. Get an education and become a doctor.....you can serve more people, provide a service that is more highly prized, and therefore, EARN more money. Start your own company so that you manufacture goods that people want to buy--you are now serving even more people, and you will EARN even more money. In short, do you want to earn more money in a capitalist society? Stop whining about those "haves", and get about the business of serving other people.

Capitalism is controling us to serve other people.

[Jack]

I think that the Native Americans had it right.

[Knight_Errant]

does capitalism really reward service?
The guy cleaning the toilets at the bus station has served a lot- so where's his mansion on the hill?

[Capt Ann]

Don-- are you telling us that you WOULD NOT choose to serve your fellow man, and the only reason you do provide any useful service is because capitalism MAKES you do it?

It seems to me that your brand of communism/anarchy is just a (very) thinly-veiled form of selfishness.

..Just an observation.

[Knight_Errant]

If you'll pardon the intrusion, the problem Don Appears to be having is that in return for serving his fellow man, he is expected to put up with poor wages and no sex...

[Capt Ann]

Originally posted by Random_kid
does capitalism really reward service?
The guy cleaning the toilets at the bus station has served a lot- so where's his mansion on the hill?
You're equating "served" with "menial", and "reward" with "mansion". Neither is true.

The guy cleaning toilets serves, and so gets paid. But anybody could perform this service, so not many people are willing to pay for it (I clean my own at home...how about you?). The guy who invests every penny he has to build a manufacturing facility that employs 300 people and produces vaccines that ship around the world to reduce the incidence of river blindness serves a lot more, and therefore he EARNS a lot more.

Yes, capitalism rewards service.

[Capt Ann]

Originally posted by Random_kid
.......he is expected to put up with poor wages and no sex...
Huh????

Please explain.

[Ad McG]

Tell you what mate, let's get rid of all the laws and money in the world so we can be "liberated". Then see what happens.

[Knight_Errant]

OK. Glad we got that sorted. Fair enough...

[Kwajman]

Amen and thank you Captain Ann...

And Don doesn't HAVE to serve capitalism. He can go live in the woods and eat off the land. Or he can go to another country where they have more of his ideals. He wants this countries rewards, but not WORK for it. Either he is very misguided, or he just wants to start everyone thinking. I don't know which. At least he's being nice about it....

[Kwajman]

Oh my gosh *with a valley girl accent* that was my 1000th post...applause applause.....

[Capt Ann]

Congrats to Kwajman!!!!


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-------MMM-------- <---my attempt at posting fireworks
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[Tireces]

The real problem these days isn't people not wanting to work for somewhere, its where they apply not wanting to hire them. Not everyone is jobless by choice. I thank god almighty I go to school from home and don't have to support myself entirely, because looking for and keeping any job is a nightmare, no matter how hard you work at it. Every job I've been on I've done everything I could as well as I could, and still I was always considered one of the less valuable employees, because I wasn't all buddied up and nice with everyone else. I go there to work, not to slack around chatting with people on illegitimate unrecorded breaks. But nonetheless, when it came time to stop giving people hours, I'd be the first one to go. And thats even on jobs I could freaking GET. You can apply to countless places, and not a damned one will take you. They give you these ridiculous, long tests that ask how devoted you are and such, and if you answer with honesty (IE, don't fill in the perfect affirmative for every one), they just throw any possibility of hiring you in the garbage. Having to sell your honesty along with your services to a company is a sign of some serious problems. I'm not going to jump on the anarchist bandwagon here and say everyone who owns a business and has gained wealth is evil, but likewise, I think it's very, VERY wrong to say everyone who is not in such a position is "just lazy".

[Capt Ann]

Tireces,
you are right that people aren't necessarily 'lazy' for not having a job up to their potential. There are always circumstances that we can't control. I have nothing against anything you posted--it's the general attitude in the original thread that owning a business makes you 'evil', or that somehow society "owes me" that I resent.

PS--PM me if you're interested, and I'll give you some pointers about the things any employer looks for in hiring, promoting, and keeping workers.

[Don Davies]

Originally posted by Capt Ann
Don-- are you telling us that you WOULD NOT choose to serve your fellow man, and the only reason you do provide any useful service is because capitalism MAKES you do it?

It seems to me that your brand of communism/anarchy is just a (very) thinly-veiled form of selfishness.

..Just an observation.

A while ago I took a computer repair course in school and I hated it. After I got licensed I took a job repairing computers and I hated the job so I quit. I didn't want to provide service to them.

If I could do MA for a liveing I would because I enjoy it. I would love to provide service to the people in the area of MA.

[Mrs Owt]

Originally posted by Don Davies
[If I could do MA for a liveing I would because I enjoy it. I would love to provide service to the people in the area of MA. [/B]

Ahhh, there you go then. Train yourself well and learn all you can and you can be an MA entrepeneur. If you start your own school and do well and then find yourself hiring other instructors - are you one of the capitalist parasites you talk about earlier? Or will you provide MA instruction as barest subsistance costs so that you can just keep the doors open and feed yourself?

[Capt Ann]

originally posted by Don Davies
If I could do MA for a liveing I would because I enjoy it. I would love to provide service to the people in the area of MA.

Don-

There's probably a reason for that.... there's no reason your skills, talents, and interests can't ALL be put together into a job that you would really enjoy.

Don't give up, and try applying in your area--maybe your own dojo/dojang could use another Asst. Instructor?

Very few people find a passion in life that they can truly consider a "calling". If you can get a job doing what you love most, consider yourself very, VERY blessed!

Regards,
Ann

[Tireces]

Originally posted by Capt Ann
PS--PM me if you're interested, and I'll give you some pointers about the things any employer looks for in hiring, promoting, and keeping workers.

Thanks but I'm pretty sure I already know where the problems lie. Mostly in my appearance and the fact that I'm just not a talkative person.

[Capt Ann]

Unless you're in sales, 'talkative' doesn't really matter, and as far as appearance, unless you come across resentful, or apathetic, who cares how you look???

[Don Davies]

Originally posted by Capt Ann
Very few people find a passion in life that they can truly consider a "calling". If you can get a job doing what you love most, consider yourself very, VERY blessed!

Regards,
Ann

The problem is that not many people can find a job they like or love. Thats one of the reasons I hate capitalism it forces a lot of people to do what they don't like or love.

[morphus]

Capt Ann "Capitalism works because it does NOT reward control, but it rewards SERVICE."

Capitalism COULD work - communism COULD work & a hell of a lot of other systems COULD work but they unfortunately are ALL flawed.
The flaw is human beings/people because as for anything in life there are those who are willing to walk & trample over anyone else for the greed of wealth & there are also those who can't or sometimes won't do anything to stop them.
Thus every system has the opportunatey to succeed (yes including communism which prob' has the best base ideal - everyone equal) but they all ulimately fail in the end.
Why else would governments change? If any of them worked to full we'd keep the same government & the same guy in charge wouldn't we.

So we for now we keep the old knitted glove;) hoping it'll just turn into a nice silk glove.:p

[Kwajman]

Tireces, I DO understand, I've lost a job because of nepotism before and thats not fair. Employment isn't fair. Some sales jobs want blonde haired blue eyed sweet young things to push their goods. Some don't care. Its all a trade off.

Appearance does matter and thats your choice. If businesses have two equal candidates for a position, one a clean cut guy in a suit, the other one has piercings, tattoos, etc...you know who they are going to hire. Thats one of the consequences of doing things permanently to your body. I'm not saying that is whats going on in your case, just as an example. Hang in there tho and keep trying. It took me till I was 35 to land my dream job, and I can still improve...

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Idealistic systems:

Communism - everyone equal, no matter what they do, no matter how talented they are or how hard they work

Capitalism - everyone has equal opportunities, if they work

Anarchy - no organised structure whatsoever, people have to do everything for themselves if they want it done

[Tireces]

Originally posted by Kwajman
Hang in there tho and keep trying. It took me till I was 35 to land my dream job, and I can still improve...

I'm not even talking about a career, I'm talking about just getting simple little jobs as a cashier and stuff. They're that picky.

[morphus]

LBR - "Capitalism - everyone has equal opportunities, if they work"

Not so because of the human element - theres always one human willing to take advantage of another, & capitalism allows this happen. It fails to protect the small guy.
Re: M. Thatcher "Look after number one" OK she never saaid it but she might as well have.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Not so because of the human element - theres always one human willing to take advantage of another, & capitalism allows this happen. It fails to protect the small guy.

Like I said, its the ideals. Communism would work fine if the central authority were willing to do their work for the same reward as everyone else. Anarchy would work find if everyone was willing to work together without an incentive.

[Tatsumaru]

lol, marxists marxists everywhere and none of them can think....

look out Don Davies, the scary capatilists are coming :rolleyes:

some people are really really dumb, thats all i have to say.

[Mrs Owt]

I don't think Don is dumb or anyone else who has replied to this thread. I just think it is very easy for those who are just starting out to get discouraged in the capitalist system because it takes time and experience to get established. Unfortunately if you want the big bucks you usually have to go to school for a lengthy period of time or put in time and sweat equity into building a business which, if you are lucky and diligent, will provide you a comfortable lifestyle.

I don't believe the capitalist system limits you, but that you limit yourself by making excuses for why you aren't succesful as you want to be.

[Don Davies]

Originally posted by Tatsumaru
some people are really really dumb, thats all i have to say.

Just because I don't agree with someone doesn't mean I think there are dumb like you do. I don't think most capitalist are dumb. I just don't agree with them. I do agree that some people are really really dumb, and you Tatsumaru are one of them.

[Yojimbo]

we are all slaves every one of us....

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Tatsumaru, Don, you've both had a shot at each other. I suggest the personal attacks stop there if possible. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't make them stupid. People have different experiences and different views, otherwise everyone would agree. Just because someone believes something different from you is no reason to insult them.

[Don Davies]

I agree. I respect peoples opinions. He didn't respect mine and to me that seems very cocky.

[MichaelV]

People will usually work hard to improve their own lives.
People will rarely work hard to improve other's lives.

Now, given those two facts, which economic system makes the most sense to you?

[morphus]

In other words B**ger everyone else - which is how the system works for a lot people

I have had success in the present system - I have had failure in the present system.
I had success because i worked hard, i had failure because somebody decided to trample a bit!

"Imagine":love:

[Kwajman]

I think a great example would be: When the soviet union still existed, the first cracks in the armor of communism occurred when the state "Officially" began allowing individuals to grow vegetables in plots for sale on the market. Very quickly it became apparent that the individuals were collectively growing more veggies on the private plots than the farmers were growing on the huge fields. Exactly what MichaelV quotes above.

[Judderman]

In answer to the question "are we slaves?" I would say yes in a very general sweeping motion.

Saying we are slaves indicates we are not free. Then what indeed is freedom?

I say it's choice. If you are able to realise that everything you do is choice, whether you decide to do something or not, then you are free.

I count myself as one of the few people who choose to go to work, because I want to, not because I feel obliged to by some system of commerce. I enjoy what I have and don't spend useless hours (only minutes :D) wishing for things I don't have.

Now heres the rub. Would I say the same if I had a cut in wages? I think I would, but would probably complain about the wages. Does this make me a victim of the system? Not in my reality.

Budo.

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

I think the true test of whether you really love your job is to ask yourself if you'd still do it if you weren't getting paid for it (assume for the sake of argument that you didn't need the money). The fact that most of us would probably answer "no" still doesn't make us slaves, in my opinion.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

say it's choice. If you are able to realise that everything you do is choice, whether you decide to do something or not, then you are free.

You can still choose not to go to work, and to starve instead. There is still that option available.

[Judderman]

That is my point rabbit. For me its the difference between saying "I'm going to work because I will starve" and "I understand that a consequnce of not working is I may starve". One is a free choice, the other is a forced choice.

The only thing that prevents you from doing as you choose is yourself.

Ultimately most would prefer to feed themselves, but it is the intent and the locus of control that counts.