aikido and tkd

[stratiotes]

I currently take TKD, and I am planning on cross training in other martial arts in the future, but i can only afford attending one school right now.

Thing is, our school also has aikido... and my school tuition i already pay would cover aikido also. Would it be worth my time and effort to add aikido to my training, or should i just stick with tkd and later on cross train in jujitsu or some other grappling art?

(Plz don't turn this into a anti-tkd post or anything, i'm already going to stick with tkd no matter what so just tell me about the aikido)

Thanks guys.

[ranger]

what style of aikido? oh well, style of aikido doesn't matter anyway. try it. i can go all day talking about how i enjoyed and love training in aikido but its different when you experience it.

[TheMasterSword]

I currently cross train with aikido and have done a lil tkd...

One thing you have to realize is that Aikido and tkd are not a likely combination to see in a fighter.... mainly because of contrasting theories.... tkders bounce a lot to stay light on their feet to kick... aikidokas slide their feet and hardly ever respond to an attack by kicking...the stances/pomses(sp?) are different

Hapkido might be a good combination with tkd because of similiar fighting methods and beliefs

however, aikido is for everyone and absolutely everyone can do it.... it only matters on the individual... if you can pretty much throw out a lot of tkd theories and start anew with aikido then i say go for it.. aikido is one of the most enjoyable arts to take part in physically mentally and spiritually.. so more power to you if you can do it

[stratiotes]

Well, we incorporate some judo (or hapkido??) techniques in with our tkd. But like i said, i prob would cross train in jujitsu or something, but being as i can take aikido with no extra charge in tuition, that's why i'm concidering it.

I don't really like hurting people, so if i were in a real fight, i think i'd rather use more evasive techniques than hard strikes and stuff. Esp concidering most of the ppl i would possibibly have to defend against around work are just smart ass teens who think they are bad. I wouldn't want to hurt them, it'd be neat to evade everything they attempt though and show them up in front of everyone.

[Poop-Loops]

I take TKD right now and am SERIOUSLY thinking about switching to Aikido, and possibly resuming TKD later in life. I just want to learn the concept of manipulating someone else's balance. And also, striking styles such as Karate, TKD, and such require lots of power. I doubt I'll have the power I have now when I'm 50 or 60. But I still want to be able to defend myself against punk hoodlums. If I had unlimited time and money, I'd learn EVERY style on Earth. I don't, so I have to pick the styles that interest me the most. You have to do the same.

Don't pick based on looks. Smashing somebody's head in with a kick is just as neat as flipping them without using any energy. Don't look at self-defence. If you've found a good TKD school, you'll be taught enough of that. This is why it's a hard decision for me. My current TKD school is excellent. Small classes, and a teacher that is insanely good, and really knows what he's doing.

PL

[aikiwolfie]

In my experience anybody who has trained in another art that contrasts against aikido finds it hard to addapt to Aikido. Aikido is just so different.

If you can get over that hardle though, then Aikido should compliment your TKD. But then you have to remember it doesn't work in reverse. You can't applie TKD to Aikido.

Since you're already covered for it I see no harm in trying it out. Let us know how it goes.

[stratiotes]

PoopLoops: Yeah same here. My tkd school is really good, and they do include some groundfighting and grappling for self defense. Even some stick fighting now and then.

I just really want to add some something that doesn't require that much strentgh and where being short isn't as much disadvantage.

I am so much smaller then everyone, if i were to get attacked by someone alot bigger then me, i might hurt him with some tkd but i doubt i could win. There are some guys in my class who are at the same skill level as me yet crush me in sparring. I wanna find ways to get better at evading and stuff.

From what i've read around here though aikido takes years to master... i think that kind of turns me off. Someone at my school did aikido for 2 years and said when he tried to use it in real life, none of it was instinct so it wasn't helpful. Takes many years to become instinct.

[TheMasterSword]

Well I'll tell you this.... aikido does take a long time to master but it's not only because you have to train long years in the techniques but also the spiritual side and mind set of the art...

i've been doing aikido for 7 years now and i actually was away from it for 4 years because of college so technically ive been only practicing for 3.... but during that time that i was away from the dojo i would read about o'sensei, ran every technique through my head, read every book on aikido, did a lil aikido in a corner where no one would be watching, etc... and it helped... i feel my randori (free sparring if you will) in aikido has greatly improved since i left by getting in the mindset and theories of aikido.... obviously i need more time to master the techniques but jus the other day my friend after having a few drinks was getting a lil rowdy and started pushing me and instead of knocking him in the face i simply evaded and evaded and unbalanced him left and right til he jus gave up

[totality]

i recommend you supplement your muay thai training with submission grappling. ;)

[stratiotes]

Yeah, assuming I don't try aikido, after I get first dan in tkd, i'm going to cross train in either jujitsu, hapkido, or maybe if i can find a school, wing chun. I don't really want to stop taking tkd at that point, so i'll prob choose something that compliments it rather then have to learn a totally different way of fighting.

I do think i'm going to go and attend the aikido class next week to see what i think.

[korutsuki]

I dont get it!! why all the guys have to cross train!! it is really hard to master one art !! and all are too excited to cross train!! is it u guys want to show some bravery in frnt of your girlfreind!!that ur a martial art fighter!! u can save her anytime!! stick into one!! all martial arts have spirit!! master one art and u can beat any other style with ur skill!!
Fighters and artists are different!!

[neryo_tkd]

ha ha ha if people want to cross-train, let them be. a friend of mine thinks that with cross-training you never ''really'' learn a martial art, because u learn a little bit of this, a little bit of that. well, there might be some truth in it. but it also depends on how much time you dedicate to those martial arts and how long you are in martial arts.

concerning TKD and aikido, i have to say once again - a funny combination. before i started training TKD, i went to several aikido classes and have to say that they were really boring. but then again, not all schools and instructors and styles are the same and neither are we.

if the money covers both at ur school, give it a try, see it for yourself. if it doesn't work, then you can choose something else.

[Poop-Loops]

Originally posted by korutsuki
I dont get it!! why all the guys have to cross train!! it is really hard to master one art !!

Which is why I want to find the martial art I like the best first. I don't want to spend years training something, just to find out there was something else I could have done, that would have gone better with my personality and body build.

PL

[stratiotes]

I don't see anything wrong with sticking to one martial art.

I love tkd, but i'm not going to lie to myself and say if i get good enough at it, i will be able to defend against anyone.

I do have an instructor that is good enough and fast enough with his tkd that i think it would be very hard for anyone of any style to beat, but even HE cross trains in groundfighting styles and grappling.

I'm not in it for spirituality and stuff otherwise i'd stick with one.

Also: Just because a person cross trains doesn't mean pervious training was in vein. I don't plan on quitting tkd, i just plan on complimenting it with another style that deals with things tkd can't.

What if you are tkd, are in a real fight and someone is good at evading... they evade and take you to the ground, if all you know is tkd strike techniques, you are screwed. That's where cross training comes in.

[Infesticon #1]

why can't I train in TKD and Aikido?

the 2 schools I train at haven't said that they mind, and I don't mind.

So I'll continue.

yeah, the stances are totally different, as is the posture, and the moves, but I like them both and have different experiences at each of them.

The TKD is a lot more like constant exercise, linework, padwork, sparring and warm down.

the Aikido is more like warm-up, practise some techniques, warm down.

I like 'em both.

[stratiotes]

Yeah. I really want to take something that i can use with tkd. I think to round out martial arts training, everyone should train in some stand up striking style and a ground fighting/grappling style.

I think i've decided not to worry about aikido right now and just focus all my effort in tkd, and then later on when i have more money to spend, finding another school for jujitsu or something.

[totality]

Originally posted by korutsuki
master one art and u can beat any other style with ur skill!!


sorry captain, that's really not how the world works. nice try though!

[aikiwolfie]

I think if people want to cross train they should. My own teacher personaly doesn't allow it. And I do see his point. Aikido is hard enough to teach without having to fight against another phylosophy at the same time.

I am always amazed when perfectly capable grown men come to join the class and they can't so much as put the right foot in front of their left.

If you're already covered for it, i say try it. There's nothing to be lost by trying.

[stratiotes]

Yeah personally i wouldn't get into 2 conflicting arts (or arts that just teach different versions of the same type of thing). For example i wouldn't take TKD and Karate. But if one art covers one thing, nothing wrong with cross training in an art that covers something else.

Aikido is more mind-work then alot of arts from what i hear. It would be hard to teach that kind of stuff and soft techniques if you were also studying jujitsu or judo.

[Poop-Loops]

Originally posted by totality
sorry captain, that's really not how the world works. nice try though!

Actually... it is! Just that "mastering" a style is near impossible, something most people never do. Technically, with a good enough roundhouse, you could knock anybody out, no matter what. Does anybody like that exist? Doubt it. But it's possible.

PL

[aikiwolfie]

Yeah Aikido is heavy on the mind. One of the main reasons most people just can't get to grips with it. But posessing an Aikido mind set could potentialy give you a huge advantage in TKD. It doesn't realy work the other way around un fortunatly and chopping and changing will only hinder your development.

Now stop posting about it and go try it.

[Boxy]

Hi......I'm a first time poster.....been on the internet for quite a while but never got involved in chats or posting - until now....I've been practicing Ju Jutsu in Perth since July 2002 and started Aikido in September 2003, so I'm running one alongside the other at the same dojo. I find Aikido a bit of a thinking mans art while jujutsu, although similar in body movements and some other elements is certainly the 'harder' style.
I've never done a hard MA - eg Karate or TKD because I believe that you need to have a graduated response to various levels of aggression - ie you dont want to kick a drunk in the head if all you want to do is evict them from a nightclub. - this is why i chose jujutsu - plus with all the cameras around it doesnt look very good doing spinning kicks and huge backhand strikes if youre trying to restrain someone - plus a subsequent court case if you do permanent injury.
I believe that you need to be able to have a range of techniques available to cope with different levels of aggression - you dont want to have to kick your best friend in the head just to get him out of the pub if he's getting untidy......

thats my two cents worth anyway.......

cheers Boxy

[aikiwolfie]

lol actualy sometimes I think kicking my best friend in the head would do him some good lol .... but you do make a good point .... why go to all the bother of kicking someones head when you can just as easily break their arm ..... and a broken arm looks better in court .... "well your honor I was evicting the procecution from the bar and he strugled and his arm just broke".

[TheMasterSword]

i agree... one of my fellow aikidokas is also a bouncer at a local nightclub.... he has said aikido is the most invaluable tool for him... one example is that he saw a 250 lb dude about to pound on this one kid.. he ran right behind kicked out his back leg, grabbed the guy's arm and applied a tenkai kote hineri lock which he then translated into a more behind the back lock to "carry" the person outside... when the cops came the guy was complaining that the bouncer used too much force and broke his arm... but the beauty of it was there was no break he simply locked the arm in an uncomfortable spot and there were no charges

[Dave Humm]

I'd like to pick up on something if I may
...possessing an Aikido mind set...
Let’s drop the word "Aikido" and replace it with "martial"
...possessing a martial mind set...
Ok, what exactly is a martial mind ?
As far as I can tell from the various people I've trained with and learned from, the state of mind we discuss is "Zanshin" the total and complete situational awareness of your surroundings and situation. It is your understanding between what we do in the Dojo to practice our techniques and, the differences between that and their 'real life' applications. If you do not understand the differences at all, all you are doing is "Practicing" and will be unlikely to "Do" it for real.

If we relate that specifically to Aikido, it is evident where this so called mind set comes from. O-Sensei studied several Koryu of 'old' Japan. The attitudes towards these disciplines were obviously quite different that to day but, Aikido has in many instances retained the traditions and values of the older ways. But, you have to look at the very name of the discipline to understand it. The nature of the discipline has changed from being "Aiki - jutsu" very much a 'hard' method of techniques designed to inflict pain, injure and in some cases death, based obviously upon the arts the Founder studied to... "Aiki - do" The name reflects the path for which the founder wanted his discipline to unfold. A method of uniting people after the horrors of the second world war. "do" 'the way of'

So, getting back to the mind set. IHMO it doesn't matter which martial art you study, situational awareness is everything and anything to do with the application of your discipline. Naturally you have to be taught to be 'aware' but, a student can naturally develop their own Zanshin through committed study. There isn't a quick fix of instantaneous skill. All MA's take years to understand.

Now, if you want to develop a pure martial mind set, study any of the traditional Japanese sword arts, and do so for a long time. You will find that your 'awareness' becomes a honed skill.

DaveH

[stratiotes]

Well what good timing. In TKD class tonight, my instructor used it to introduce us to aikido. He is encouraging us to take up aikido. He said he started at 2nd dan in tkd, and he's 6th dan now, and it improved his TKD quite a bit.

He demonstrated some techniques, and they really don't look too complicated. I'm sure there are more advanced ones that get complicated, but several don't look like it would take long to pick up well enough to use them instinctively. We practiced alot of break falls and rolls.

They do seem to use more throws and wrist locks then i thought they would, which i see as a good thing.

I think i'm going to try out a class saturday.

[aikiwolfie]

See I told you it would help your TKD.

A lot of basic techniques are pretty simple. But appearances with Aikido are deceptive. Be prepared to suddenly forget which is your right hand and which is your left. And how do you move those feet again?

i see your point dave but today so many martial arts concentrate on fighting and showing off and competition and looking good and being flash. From my experience Aikido students do realy seem to look at things almost totaly differently. Maybe in a few years my oppinion will have changed. Who knows.

[stratiotes]

Yeah, moving fluidly is pretty complicated when I'm used to fast motions. All the footwork really looks like it could be benefitial though.

I've heard his classes are really hard though, he has them do like 200 pushups a class.

[Infesticon #1]

yeah, those back of the wrist push ups are murder.

[aikiwolfie]

When my teacher first started teaching way back a long long long long long time ago in the olden days he used to do alot of push ups and stuff because he wasn't confident enough to teach aikido. But tht was before he opend his own club. He was only 1st kyu.

Anyway push ups won't hurt. Well 200 might. But tiring your self out is a good way to find the softness Aikido requires. If you've not strength left you can't use it.

[Infesticon #1]

heheheheh quite true that.

[stratiotes]

I doubt they do 200 at once. They prob split it up into sets of 20 or something throughout the class.

In TKD throughout class we usually do 15 regulars, 15 back the hand, 15 judo pushups, 15 on fingertips, 15 wide aprt, and 15 triangle ones.

Normally we do like 3 types of pushup in the middle of class, and then 3 at the end. We usually save the back of the hand, judo, and fingertip ones for last when we are already exausted.

[Infesticon #1]

what are judo push ups?

[aikiwolfie]

Ask if the whole class can do 3 lots of 200. You'll be popular. lol

[Poop-Loops]

Judo push ups are more less like this: http://www.trainforstrength.com/ex-1.shtml

Then you either roll back the opposite way, or just push yourself up afterwards. I've done them both ways.

PL

[Asian Fury]

TheMasterSword, I don't remember bouncing in TKD, that's only in certain branches of TKD. In tradition TKD, you don't bounce at all, you make sure you keep your feet on the ground and you slide like you do in Aikido.

[DexterTCN]

Those Judo pushups are called 'cat licks' :)

[stratiotes]

We call them judo puhsups or dive bombers. We also do them both ways.

[turonaga]

i hav always consider aikido superior martial art only art that could defeat my karate

[Gravity]

and get CONFUSED! Just don't come back whining. And here's why...

Remember that in real life situations, we let go of our conscious brain and let our limbic, "reptilian" brain take over. That's when we fight on pure reflex. To get to this kind of level, you have to hardwire your brain (thru years of constant practice). Unfortunately, the brain cannot simultaneously hardwire two opposing concepts or paradigms, or in your case... two opposite arts (Aikido and TKD). Just like a computer, your brain will "hang" as it tries to process (even on the limbic level) the two opposites.

To illustrate, Aikido has a much closer maai than TKD. Aikido closes in with the opponent while TKD tends to fight at range. Imagine yourself confronted with a real life fight situation. Your brain is hardwired for one art (yes, every cross trainer will always favor one art over the others) but in the middle of it all, your conscious brain tries to "second guess" you just because it thought you learned some technique of the other art. You will be stopped dead in your tracks and set yourself up for an easy kill.

If you need to cross train, try to choose arts that are close to each other in principles and techniques.

[stratiotes]

You have good points Gravity. I think i'm going to try it just to pick up some good footwork and conditioning for falling, being thrown, etc. I think i'm going to go judo once i complete the 2 1/2 year contract.

[aikiwolfie]

Gravity you raise some good points but the truth is it doesn't work like that. Martial artists who sucessfuly cross train often have a greater understanding of martial arts, how a fight works, how not to lose and how to avoide a fight in the first place.

Cross training isn't for everybody. But if people want to try it then they should. They will soon know if cross training is working for them.

Incidently if you are placed in a position so bad that instinct takes over completly, then your primitive brain has 'complete' control. The conciouse mind would have to do a hell of a lot to interfear with that process. That's why people get the sensation of just watching and not being in control. Or they simply don't remember the episode at all.

[Infesticon #1]

had a talk with my instructor (TKD) I'll stop aikido until I'm a black belt in TKD.

[aikiwolfie]

Why wait until you're a black belt?

[Infesticon #1]

well, my instructor said he'd prefer it if I didn't do another MA until I was a black belt in TKD.

[aikiwolfie]

Oh ok. It does make sense. Learning one martial art can be difficult. Learning more than would at the same time could cause problems.

[stratiotes]

My instructor started cross training in aikido when he was 2nd dan in TKD. Now he's 6th dan tkd, and is good at both TKD and aikido...
He doesn't seem to have any problem.

Just from one aikido class, my footwork during sparring in TKD was notiveably inproved. I usually am one to back up rather then around because my footwork wasn't very smooth.

Whenever i'm fighting someone (without tkd rules), my intincts are usually to fight low. Kicks to legs, groin. If they get close, sweeps and punching.

In taekwondo, when someone punches at you, you're supposed to evade and get around them in a cirular movement. In aikido, the same thing. The way i see it, aikido can't really be used long range, and taekwondo can't really be used close range (except basic punches and stuff), so i couldn't really get my instincts crossed.

I've never been in a real fight though so i can't really say what i'd do.

[aikiwolfie]

I'm never realy sure what people mean by 'long range'. To do anything in martial arts short of throwing a weapon, you have to be within touching distance with a hand of foot or what ever. This to me is close enough to be short range. How you get that distance is another matter. Aikido like most if not all martial arts has it's ways of entering into striking distance. It also has it's ways of getting out of striking distance (which is always a good thing).I'm glad you found something useful in your Aikido training. Even if it was only one class. I hope you do well in TKD and return to Aikido later.

[stratiotes]

Actually it was just more like an orientation my TKD instructor gave us for Aikido. He was trying to encourage us to try aikido out. We only learned some basic footwork, basics of falling, and some rolling. I haven't been to an actual class yet, i still plan to when i can get time.

There are also different types of self defense situations. So far i have never been in any situation where anyone has tried to actually threaten my life.
Where i work, we have tons of teens that hang out and cause trouble. Many of them love to mouth off and will sometimes start fights, but i know none of them really know how to fight, they just start throwin punches and pushin people. If they were to try to start something with me, i would want to defend myself, but wouldn't want to hurt them. I think aikido would help in a situation like that.

[aikiwolfie]

lol ... yeah it would, it's pretty funny when you spin someone on the spot and watch them fall on their butt. Even better is the expresion on their faces when they can't figure out what you did.

[Infesticon #1]

Actually it was just more like an orientation my TKD instructor gave us for Aikido. He was trying to encourage us to try aikido out. We only learned some basic footwork, basics of falling, and some rolling. I haven't been to an actual class yet, i still plan to when i can get time.

There are also different types of self defense situations. So far i have never been in any situation where anyone has tried to actually threaten my life.
Where i work, we have tons of teens that hang out and cause trouble. Many of them love to mouth off and will sometimes start fights, but i know none of them really know how to fight, they just start throwin punches and pushin people. If they were to try to start something with me, i would want to defend myself, but wouldn't want to hurt them. I think aikido would help in a situation like that.
that is exactly why I wanted to learn aikido, in case I encountered a fight situation I couldn't just run away from, I'm pretty sure a side kick to the knee would be considered excessive force.

Ah well, hopefully nothing will happen.

[stratiotes]

Yeah. If i wanted to know how to kill someone 100 different ways i'd just join the marines or get a gun permit and not have to worry. Some people get so obsessed with how lethal their martial art is, maybe 300 years ago that was important, but now, no matter how good you are, if someone 10 ft away has a gun, nothing is going to help you except to run as fast as you can and dart back and forth, lol.

[Poop-Loops]

Tell that to Neo.

PL

[d33pthought]

What I'd like to know is: What are some signs that an Aikido school is a quality school? I'd like to think I know what a quality TKD school looks like, but I honestly know very little about Aikido, let alone the different styles of it.

I think Aikido and TKD could supplement each other on a self-defense level, because, at least how we train self-defense at my school, we rarely kick at all: It's all strikes, blocks and jointlocks. Aikido would just add throws and more sweeps to that, or so I imagine.

[timmeh!]

Stratiotes - what flavour of Aikido is it? Has your instructor told you?

[Crimson_Stone]

Hello all, new here, but I say combining TKD and Aikido is great idea and you should continue with it.

I boxed thru high school, began with Shin Budo Kai Aikido in '98, took up olympic style TKD in 2000 and have been pracitcing and participating with each ever since.

Some claim the philosophies are too contrasting, however philosophy can't be taught it has to be accepted. You decide if you use TKD to keep your lunch money or use Aikido to take someone else's lunch money.

My experience with the TKD'ers is they're often wooden when it comes to floor work (falls, throws, general ukemi), and apprehensive with joint and pressure point manipulation. So it should help you to think round thoughts, and become friendly with the ground.

TKD seems to be so sport driven these days and seems to loose alot of its effectiveness in my eyes, Aikido, for me anyways, instills a more serious approach to my practice.

All in all its been alot of fun, and I hope you play around with it and learn what you will.

[aikiwolfie]

Nice post but it might be worth while checking the post dates next time. ;)