Things I wish I'd known when I started training

[Frodocious]

I thought it might be a good idea for people to list things that they wish they'd known or been told before they started on their health and fitness training.

Can we keep it to health, fitness, nutrition and injury related posts please, as there are a number of threads for martial art specific beginner's questions.

I'm not looking for long posts with multiple references, but more of a bullet point summary that gives newbies ideas about the sort of stuff they should be thinking about or looking up on the forum.

So does anyone have anything they wish they'd known earlier in their training life?


I'll start with some things I wish I'd been told:


1. Buying a 50kg vinyl barbell set from Argos is a false economy as you will rapidly outgrow it. Save your pennies and get a decent Olympic set of at least 100kg (more if you can afford it and with bumper plates, if possible).

2. Free weights are better than machines for building strength as they activate stabiliser muscles, which isolation exercises using machines don't.

3. Women should lift heavy using the same exercises as men - 20 reps with a pink dumbell is not strength training!

4. 3x10 is not the best method to use to build strength.

5. The core/abs should be trained in exactly the same way as the rest of your muscles. If you want to build strength in it do heavy weighted exercises.

6. An awful lot of personal trainers are totally clueless about the best way to train!

7. Diet is the key to weight loss or weight gain. If you're struggling to do either of these then (unless you are sick), you're not eating properly.

8. GPs are not necessarily the best place to go to get sports injuries diagnosed and/or treated.

9. Invest in a foam roller and/or visits to a decent sports massage therapist. Your body will thank you for it in the long run!

10. Training like your favourite UFC star is not a good idea for beginners. These people are professionals who have built up a certain level of strength and conditioning over a number of years. If you try to follow their routines the chances are you will get injured.

11. Bodyweight training can be a good form of strength training, if you do the right exercises (not multiple sets of basic pushups and crunches).

[Fish Of Doom]

mine isn't actually something i wished i'd known since i developed it pretty quickly through karate and it later skyrocketed with tai chi, but it's something every single person should know before even starting to exercise:

body awareness is king (and queen. no cheese though). the sooner you learn to control and self-monitor your own body, the better you will control your movements, and the better progress you will make when working on your body.

it can mean the difference between spending months trying to simply be able to do something, to picking it up in three sessions and having those months free for technique correction and actual work.

[tonyv107]

mine isn't actually something i wished i'd known since i developed it pretty quickly through karate and it later skyrocketed with tai chi, but it's something every single person should know before even starting to exercise:

body awareness is king (and queen. no cheese though). the sooner you learn to control and self-monitor your own body, the better you will control your movements, and the better progress you will make when working on your body.

it can mean the difference between spending months trying to simply be able to do something, to picking it up in three sessions and having those months free for technique correction and actual work.

Very good point. Doesn't that kind of thing come with training though? I've always been pretty bad with things like that and it took me awhile to learn how to execute my judo throws quickly. Some people are just more in tune with their body I guess.

[Cowardly Clyde]

* Without the correct nutrition you can work out for years & not get any results - strange that no PT every mentioned this little gem to me!

* Be nice to your knees & back - listen to what your body is telling you because one day it will fail to fix itself!

*Don't believe the lies - always question what your MA instructor tells you (Pre-Internet this was more difficult as the community just wasn't there to bounce ideas off) that's why back in the day everyone thought that their karate teacher was a lethal killing monster even tho he was (probably) quite fat & out of shape!

*Foam roll everyday

*Spend time getting to know your grandparents!

[Fish Of Doom]

Very good point. Doesn't that kind of thing come with training though? I've always been pretty bad with things like that and it took me awhile to learn how to execute my judo throws quickly. Some people are just more in tune with their body I guess.

it comes a lot faster if you know you're supposed to do it.

physical activity newbies will ALWAYS, without exception, start doing things without thinking about how they're moving, and it tends to take quite a bit of time until they figure it out, however if you give them specific corrections (KEEP THAT SHOULDER DOWN FFS!!!!!!!! *evil glare*), it will speed the process along massively once you get them to understand that they need to look at the process rather than the end result when working on technique.

[LCC]

Have a trusted spotter when lifting heavy.

Don't over-stretch or do excessively long warm-ups before training (strength and martial arts).

Quick absorption carbs are just as important as quick absorption proteins in a post-workout shake.

[Gary]

Great thread!

My own additions:

Know your sources: There's tons of info on the Internet and people have a habit of taking the written word as fact. Check your sources. Is it referenced? Do those references check out? Does your source have an agenda? It takes minutes to check these but could save months or money.

3 things that improved my training: Compound, heavy movements. Diet. A good training partner. In no particular order.

Ego=injury: it's always tempting to let good form slip for a few extra lbs or reps. It'll be just as tempting next time too. Eventually it will catch up with you and the results could permanently affect your training.

Women that lift properly are hotter than women who don't.

[Master Betty]

1) If you pick up an injury and have to take time off training - take twice as much time as recomended. You can never be too careful and rushing your body back into training will only end badly - as I found out the hard way.

2) If dieting for a fight, start the diet earlier than you would want to - but give yourself a day off the diet once every week or two. Don't binge eat junk food on it, but the mental relief is great and the overall results will make you feel much happier in your diet and less like you can't wait to get off it.

3) If matched for a fight, don't try to get down exactly to the fight weight until the day of the weigh ins. Your opponent wont, he'll lose the last couple of kilos in water and then rehydrate after weigh ins - resulting in him stepping into the ring at least a couple of kilos heavier than you.

4) if you train with knees and clinch, get a steel ball guard - not the plastic ones advocated by the likes of blitz etc. When you catch a hard knee and it splits, do you REALLY want to trust to luck that you'll still be able to have kids?

5) Drink lots of water, all day.

6) Don't eat just before going to bed.

7) If striking is your thing, then you NEED to be supplementing your training with High Intensity Interval Training, sprints and plyometric exercises. Train the way you plan on fighting.

[ArthurKing]

Several really obvious(?) ones:
Rest is as important as training.
Fitness starts right now- not next week or after the last slice of pizza...
Train for motion, but also train for stillness- a relaxed muscle is a faster muscle (and that includes your brain).
And i think the listening to your body stuff is very important (particularly if your a late starter, like me).

[Frodocious]

Fitness starts right now- not next week or after the last slice of pizza...

To add to this point, you don't need to be fit to start training in a martial art. A good instructor will allow you to progress at a rate suitable for you and you will gain fitness as you train. This fitness can be supplemented by doing strength and conditioning work outside of class time.

[The Wiseman]

I wish I had known it was kinda difficult. Then I wouldn't have done it. But I'm stuck now...

JK JK JK JK JK JK JK

[Master Betty]

To add to this point, you don't need to be fit to start training in a martial art. A good instructor will allow you to progress at a rate suitable for you and you will gain fitness as you train. This fitness can be supplemented by doing strength and conditioning work outside of class time.

Actually I'd slightly disagree with this. I expect everyone in my gym to do the session I give them. However, I don't necessarily expect them to be able to complete it. If everyone can complete my training sessions then I feel I've made it too easy. I don't shout at my guys, I don't berate them and I don't act negatively towards them in any ways. But I expect my guys to give 100% all the time - not try to pace themselves. that's not how boundaries get pushed and fitness leapfrogs. So, if someone new starts they're still expected to train hard - for them. If they're not the kind of person who can deal with giving 100% and leave then, they're not the kind of person who'll stay in the long run anyway.

[icefield]

Good idea here’s my list

There’s a reason boxers, Thai boxers and combat athletes have done road work for years, and it,s not because its fun or easy or nice to get up early in the morning and go for a jog, its because it works

There’s a correlation between the amount of time a trainer spends on line writing articles and how good he actually is (hint the good ones don’t post on line that much …..they don’t need to)

Unless someone trains people for a living and is good at it I don’t listen to them, I don’t care if they are fit and strong or have a 6 pack, if they cant show the same results with countless clients I don’t want to listen to them, if there product is simply them in their garage working out I don’t listen to them, I want to see other people in their videos and testimonials from their clients

Fads come and go, people jump on band wagons all the time but there’s a reason the basics have always stood the test of time (road work, powerlifting, OL lifting)

Don’t train like how a pro trains now, train like he did when he was starting out

Its really not that hard, lift heavy, do your cardio, do your sport eat sleep and rest

Plan your recovery days first

I’m not advanced and if you have to read bulletin boards too chances are your not either, so stick to the basics

I’m not special, 99% of us aren’t and we don’t need the next special routine

Find something you enjoy and be consistent, that’s the real key

[Fish Of Doom]

If they're not the kind of person who can deal with giving 100% and leave then, they're not the kind of person who'll stay in the long run anyway.

counter-point: some of them can be turned into that kind of people with the right feedback.

counter-point to my own counter-point: that takes time away from you that could be used to train your other students.

it's all in the focus of the class. in any case, what i think frodo meant (or at least what I think, making me inclined to defend her statement as i perceive it as similar :p ) was that it's the training itself that makes you fit. people have a tendency to be downright silly and say that they can't train because they're not fit. that could be simple lack of knowledge, but also in some cases irresponsible denial and excuses not to break the comfort of everyday routine.

[Frodocious]

Actually I'd slightly disagree with this. I expect everyone in my gym to do the session I give them. However, I don't necessarily expect them to be able to complete it. If everyone can complete my training sessions then I feel I've made it too easy. I don't shout at my guys, I don't berate them and I don't act negatively towards them in any ways. But I expect my guys to give 100% all the time - not try to pace themselves. that's not how boundaries get pushed and fitness leapfrogs. So, if someone new starts they're still expected to train hard - for them. If they're not the kind of person who can deal with giving 100% and leave then, they're not the kind of person who'll stay in the long run anyway.

There is nothing wrong with training hard and expecting someone to push themselves in class. However, a newbie might only be able to do 10 pushups before being totally gassed out, whereas your top fighters can do multiple sets and reps with no problem. I also don't think you should expect 100% from a newbie, partially because your idea of 100% and their idea (and capabilities) of 100% will be completely different and partially because if they've only just started exercise, after a long break, pushing then to 100% could end up with them injured.

counter-point: some of them can be turned into that kind of people with the right feedback.

counter-point to my own counter-point: that takes time away from you that could be used to train your other students.

it's all in the focus of the class. in any case, what i think frodo meant (or at least what I think, making me inclined to defend her statement as i perceive it as similar :p ) was that it's the training itself that makes you fit. people have a tendency to be downright silly and say that they can't train because they're not fit. that could be simple lack of knowledge, but also in some cases irresponsible denial and excuses not to break the comfort of everyday routine.

Exactly, too many people say 'I want to get fit and then start martial arts', then spend ages faffing around not doing anything and never getting round to doing either.

[Frodocious]

Another thing that has just occurred to me...

You need to train your legs to develop strength in them. Newbies frequently post up a 'how's my routine' type question and when you look at it it consists of curls, pressing and tricep work and no leg work.

The best methods for training your legs are weighted squats and deadlifts. The Olympic lifts are also good, as are pistols, glute ham raises, lunges and other one legged work.

You should balance pushing work (benching) with plenty of pulling work (rowing).

Range of motion is important, there is no point claiming to being able to squat 400lb if you only bend your knees 1" - it doesn't count!

[Gary]

Hey squats are hard, besides I spend loads of time on the treadmill and play football every other Sunday...

[Master Betty]

There's a whole load of exercises that are good to spend a huge amount of time on using kettle bells, bulgarian bags and the like. Work your legs, your arms, upper body, and more importantly, your core, all at once if you know what you're doing with them. Easily my favourite 2 pieces of training apparatus.

[Doublejab]

1) If something works it works. Its easy to get caught up in semantics and thinking things are wrong for the sake of it. Different types of hooks are a good example, they can all KO someone, experiment with what works for you and get on with training.

2) Arguing about style vs style is a myth and a waste of time. Theres good training, and theres bad training. Every style has good and bad schools, and whether they're good or bad schools partly depends on the student who trains there and at what stage they are in their development. Some styles are on average much better taught than others, but that doesn't mean theres nothing to be learned from them. At the end of the day they are simply tools for self improvement, and should never be more important than the practitioner.

3) You can't do the same exercises/programs over and over and expect improvement. You have to shock the body periodically to get any major improvements. And on that subject, being able to do large sets of press ups or sit ups is massively overrated by many people.

[Frodocious]

Hey squats are hard, besides I spend loads of time on the treadmill and play football every other Sunday...

Aaarrggghhhh! You almost had me with that one! I was about to post a 'you is talking rubbish, muppet' type reply and then I scrolled up the page slightly and spotted your username! :mad: ;) :)

[Microlamia]

Self myofascial release (credit to Frodocious for introducing me to that). It cleared up lingering damage in my obliques and spinal erector muscles really fast.

[Frodocious]

Have a training plan/log. Don't just turn up to the gym and see what equipment is free. Know exactly what you are going to do each gym visit: the exercises you are going to do; the weights you want to use; the number of sets/reps you will use or the conditioning routine you have planned. It saves time faffing around and gives you something to aim for. Try to have at least a month planned out in advance.

Keep a record of what you do each session. It makes it easy to monitor progress and, if you have to have break through injury/illness, it makes it easier to know where to start back from.

If motivation to train is a problem, arrange to train with a friend. It is much more difficult to ditch a session if you have to consider somebody else.

[scm]

I also don't think you should expect 100% from a newbie, partially because your idea of 100% and their idea (and capabilities) of 100% will be completely different and partially because if they've only just started exercise, after a long break, pushing then to 100% could end up with them injured.


I have to agree with this and I've learnt the hard way :(. I think this is particularly true for us older newbies as often we *are* quite committed to giving our new sport a good go and want to give 100% but our bodies aren't sufficiently conditioned to cope with all the wear and tear. Hold back a bit to start with and build up slowly is the approach I'll be taking from now on.

[SenseiMattKlein]

1. Don't assume you can still do what you used to be able to do. It is a recipe for injury.
2. If your body says "I hurt and do not want to do this lift", listen to it.
3. Learn how to breathe properly. It makes all the difference.
4. Even if you are in a hurry, still warm up.
5. The only one I am in competition with is myself.

[Custom Volusia]

Don't go to the gym between 1700 and 1900 and expect to have an easy time getting the equipment you want to use.

[Llamageddon]

Don't just jump in to the exercises - visualise the movements and what you want to do with your body. Helps me so much when doing squats and bench.

(actually I think I stepped on FOD's toes here a bit...)

[seiken steve]

You don't need that exsessory work, if your only just benching 60kg then the best way to improve is benching, floor presses and chains are not important at your level.

full body work outs! I cringe at my old split from a year or two ago, it posted on here somewhere.

Anything more than 6 reps is bodybuilding.

Do your over head work! Everyone likes to talk about a big bench, but get your OHP up and you're bench will see to itself.

Just coz Bruce Lee/arnie/Ali did it dosen't mean it's right, in fact if it's Lee or arnie it's probably wrong, they had a number of things you don't ie anabolic assistance /genes etc.

You can never do too much research.

[seiken steve]

Oh since I was training in a council gym today.


Get your arse back on that bench muppet!

[tonyv107]

You don't need that exsessory work, if your only just benching 60kg then the best way to improve is benching, floor presses and chains are not important at your level.

full body work outs! I cringe at my old split from a year or two ago, it posted on here somewhere.

Anything more than 6 reps is bodybuilding.

Do your over head work! Everyone likes to talk about a big bench, but get your OHP up and you're bench will see to itself.

Just coz Bruce Lee/arnie/Ali did it dosen't mean it's right, in fact if it's Lee or arnie it's probably wrong, they had a number of things you don't ie anabolic assistance /genes etc.

You can never do too much research.

What do you mean by no accessories? Like one lift per muscle, or not hitting things like biceps/triceps etc.

Also when doing a FBW it's hard to hit everything within an hours time, any suggestions?

[seiken steve]

I mean floor presses, partials, board presses etc.

As to taking less time just stick to bare basics, they're all most people need.
I would do something like

Squats, OHP, bench and Kroc rows finishing with ether core, dips and chins or core push ups and supine rows.

Then for work out two something like
Squats, push press and power cleans with the same type of finisher as WO1

Add a separate day for Deadlifts and do any 'vanity' work you must then. But still try and use compounds i.e. Sub curls for power curls or really narrow neutral grip chins, and any of the hundreds of tricep exercises or narrow bench etc.

Obviously this is just a rough routine I made of the top if my head.

[liero]

Begginers don't need to keep up the classes resident professional fighter! If they try to and fail, at least don't whine about it!

[Frodocious]

Lift at a level that is appropriate to your experience and health.

Just because your mate (who has been lifting for years) can do a 3x bodyweight deadlift, it does not mean you should try one on your first session. Start light and increase the weight you lift slowly. Rushing to lift heavy weights will very likely end up with you injured. For the first few weeks you may make what seems like excellent progress, however some of this will be due to learning correct form and some will be because you started out well below your maximum weight on each lift. Leave your ego at the door. It is better to increase your lifts by 1kg a week over a year, than to try to add 20kg over a couple of weeks and end up injured!

If you have a pre-existing injury research whether or not all lifts are safe for you to do, e.g. if you have a shoulder injury, then barbell overhead pressing may not be a wise idea, but you may be able to use dumbbells. The same may be true for pull ups, you may be safer doing them using gymnastic rings than a fixed bar, as the rings will move and allow your shoulder to remain in a more comfortable movement plane. If you have a back injury, front squats may be a safer lift to use than back squats.

Remember that strength standards are different for males and females and most articles that list target weights to achieve are aimed at males.

To give you an idea of your progress have a look at the following link:

http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards.html

[seiken steve]

Www.martialartsplanet.com

Would have saved me a lot of waisted time.

[benkei]

I wish I'd known that conventional wisdom, and even professional advice regarding nutrition is for the most part terrible. If you want the best health, you have to go searching for the answers yourself, because even dieticians give outdated and erroneous advice.

[Frodocious]

I wish I'd known that conventional wisdom, and even professional advice regarding nutrition is for the most part terrible. If you want the best health, you have to go searching for the answers yourself, because even dieticians give outdated and erroneous advice.

Just to add to this...

Don't believe everything you read in the media. The difference between what is written in the newspapers and what was in the original research is often huge. In many cases journalists are not qualified scientists and therefore may be unable to criticially assess what they are reporting on. They also go for headlines and shock tactics and often what they report lacks the qualifying statements, exceptions and often the point/target group of the research. The same goes for diet books, they are usually written based on decades old research and rarely include up to the minute advice. Also authors tend err on the side of caution and don't want to be the first to publish a book based on reseach that counteracts conventional wisdom.

When you read about a new study in the newspaper or are looking for up to date diet advice, try to get the original research and read it critically. Sites such as Pubmed will give you abstracts and many journals nowadays are open access, so you don't need to work in academia to read them. The chances are that new research is a better indicator of the facts than a paper/study that is 30 years old. This is because, in the intervening 30 years, the knowledge base has increased and the technology available to scientists has become much more sophisticated and sensitive.

Don't dismiss a new idea because it counteracts what you've 'always been told' or because you think that those supporting it are a bunch of weirdos. A lot of the best websites for information can be populated by what I call 'fundamentalists'. They rave about whatever the theme of the website is and severely attack anyone who questions them or doesn't conform to what they believe in. This attitude doesn't necessarily negate the information of the website! It's the same as in martial arts. Some people refuse to accept any system but theirs might have benefits, it doesn't mean their system is rubbish, just that the individuals with this 'fundamentalist' atttitude are closed minded, intolerant muppets. Most reasonable people can see the pros and cons of different ideas, and may subscribe to one view more than another. It doesn't mean they totallly dismiss other viewpoints without doing their research first.

[Llamageddon]

All that debate is now in a new thread in OT (making this post look weird)...

[Frodocious]

* Be nice to your knees & back - listen to what your body is telling you because one day it will fail to fix itself!


To expand on this:

Learn to listen to your body and understand what it is telling you. This can be difficult for beginners who have no previous experiences to fall back on. Learn to differentiate between a muscle that is aching because you've just given it a really good workout, and a muscle that is sore because it is injured or on the way to being injured - this is particularly important for people with chronic, re-occurring injuries.

For example: I have a bad back, but experience tells me the difference between the muscles feeling tight/tingly when I've just done a heavy set of deadlifts and the muscle feeling sore because I've just reinjured them. The former I can easily treat with a hot bath or a heat pack, the latter needs 2,3,4 (or even more) weeks of complete rest and careful behaviour on my part.

Something for the women to think about: learn to understand how your monthly cycle affects your training. Some people don't have any problems and can carry on regardless. Other people feel really weak and get bad cramps and really can't train during their periods. Accept that this is the way your body is and plan it into a routine. Use the week of your period as a rest and recovery week, deload in your lifting, drop any activities that cause pain - e.g. rolling round on the floor in a bjj class with a 80kg male sitting on my stomach is the last thing I want to do if I have cramps! Also listen to your body with regards to your diet - do you suffer from anemia, if you do make sure you eat enough iron rich foods.

http://figureathlete.t-nation.com/free_online_article/diet_and_nutrition/pumping_iron

Edited to add another link.

Scroll down for some information about training through a menstrual cycle:

http://figureathlete.t-nation.com/free_online_article/figure_competition/optimized_figure_training_part_ii_optimal_training

[Moi]

Not to try lifting weights with the same warm-up my 16 year old son uses. Once was stupid, twice still isn't right 6 months later.

[daggers]

one of the best ways to get in tune with your body feel, rhythm,timing, balance coordination is....dancing.
my martial arts improved 10 fold after i spent a year learning breakdancing.

[Jezzikial]

3. Women should lift heavy using the same exercises as men - 20 reps with a pink dumbell is not strength training!

Just wondering Fro, how much did you lift when you started out? I'm not doing any lifting right now, I don't really want to build any bulk (just more definition and of course strength) but I am doing push ups... I can't really physically do chin ups... I just hang there and shake lol.
Anyway, I am not supposed to lift anything very heavy because of my back and whilst I always try to push myself in training, I don't want to go backwards and end up not being able to do any martial arts at all - so I was wondering that since you said push ups and sit ups aren't really enough, what would you recommend for own body weight training?

[seiken steve]

Work on doing chin ups...

Dips, plyometics and chins will see you well.

[Frodocious]

I have no idea how much I lifted when I started out. I started lifting (badly) when I was about 15, using a cheap vinyl weight set. I was doing 4x12 with probably around 10-20lbs.

Don't be afraid of 'bulking up', it is incredibly difficult for women to do this without chemical assistance.

If you can't do full chin ups, start by doing negatives. Jump up to the top position on the bar and lower yourself to a dead hang in as controlled a manner as possible. Doing sets of these should hepl you start to build the strength necessary to do full chin ups? If you have access to resistance bands you could use these to help with the chin ups.

I'm a bit reluctant to recommend stuff for you as your back injury will limit what you can do and I'm not a physio, but have a look at the the thread below for some ideas:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84178

I would suggest starting a thread asking for some advice - state what your goals are and what the problem with you back is and what advice you've already been given. There are some really helpful people on MAP who may be able to offer advice. Are you still seeing a Doctor about your back?

[The Wiseman]

Just wondering Fro, how much did you lift when you started out? I'm not doing any lifting right now, I don't really want to build any bulk (just more definition and of course strength) but I am doing push ups... I can't really physically do chin ups... I just hang there and shake lol.
Anyway, I am not supposed to lift anything very heavy because of my back and whilst I always try to push myself in training, I don't want to go backwards and end up not being able to do any martial arts at all - so I was wondering that since you said push ups and sit ups aren't really enough, what would you recommend for own body weight training?

I have a feeling that there are 60lbs pink dumb bells out there lol. Anyway, you are doing well. I would recomend crunches and what I call reverse crunches where you do a crunch with your lower back muscles(lying on your belly) for core toning. Push ups and chin ups are good. Push ups make you use only a portion of your body weight where as chin ups are gonna use it all, so keep hanging and TRYING and BELIEVING that you can cuz it's possible. That dude saying women should use weights like men is off his rocker. Saying everyone should do weights is the wrong idea. I use dumb bells at most and I am fairly strong. MA needs speed, stability, a little strength and a lot of coordination and timing. IMO

[Killa_Gorillas]

Just wondering Fro, how much did you lift when you started out? I'm not doing any lifting right now, I don't really want to build any bulk (just more definition and of course strength) but I am doing push ups... I can't really physically do chin ups... I just hang there and shake lol.
Anyway, I am not supposed to lift anything very heavy because of my back and whilst I always try to push myself in training, I don't want to go backwards and end up not being able to do any martial arts at all - so I was wondering that since you said push ups and sit ups aren't really enough, what would you recommend for own body weight training?

take a look at 'rosstraining dot com' for some cool bodyweight workouts etc. also look at scott sonnon's flowfit.

[Microlamia]

That dude saying women should use weights like men is off his rocker. Saying everyone should do weights is the wrong idea. I use dumb bells at most and I am fairly strong. MA needs speed, stability, a little strength and a lot of coordination and timing. IMO

I think that was Frodocious, she's a woman, and she wasn't saying all women everywhere ought to lift weights. As far as I understand she was saying that for either sex, if you want to get strong, you use a heavy weight that will challenge you. Not 10000s of reps with a weight so tiny I could probably shadowbox with it and barely lose any speed.

[CosmicFish]

That dude saying women should use weights like men is off his rocker. Saying everyone should do weights is the wrong idea.
Can you clarify what you mean here? Are you saying that men and women should train differently? Also, what is your objection to doing weights?

All the evidence I've seen makes it clear that men and women should train in the same way - with possible caveats like taking account of the increased Q angle in women when it comes to squats. Also, I see no reason not to do weights for MA. Weights can help build speed, strength and stability.

[Frodocious]

I have a feeling that there are 60lbs pink dumb bells out there lol. Anyway, you are doing well. I would recomend crunches and what I call reverse crunches where you do a crunch with your lower back muscles(lying on your belly) for core toning. Push ups and chin ups are good. Push ups make you use only a portion of your body weight where as chin ups are gonna use it all, so keep hanging and TRYING and BELIEVING that you can cuz it's possible. That dude saying women should use weights like men is off his rocker. Saying everyone should do weights is the wrong idea. I use dumb bells at most and I am fairly strong. MA needs speed, stability, a little strength and a lot of coordination and timing. IMO

As Coronavirus has stated, I'm a woman not a 'dude' and you blatantly have no idea what you are talking about. Women should and do lift weights the same way men do (with one or two qualifiers - based on anatomical and physiological differences). I never said 'everyone should use weights', weights are a useful tool, the same way bodyweight training is. How do you think you develop speed and explosive power? Well technique contributes to this, but so does strength training, ask any 100m sprinter.

Also, crunches are not the best way to build core strength and for someone with a history of back injury are probably one of the exercises that should be avoided.

[Moi]

As Coronavirus has stated, I'm a woman not a 'dude' and you blatantly have no idea what you are talking about. Women should and do lift weights the same way men do (with one or two qualifiers - based on anatomical and physiological differences). I never said 'everyone should use weights', weights are a useful tool, the same way bodyweight training is. How do you think you develop speed and explosive power? Well technique contributes to this, but so does strength training, ask any 100m sprinter.

Also, crunches are not the best way to build core strength and for someone with a history of back injury are probably one of the exercises that should be avoided

Now you go make me a sandwich biatch!



Finished that properly for you Frodo :)

[seiken steve]

I have a feeling that there are 60lbs pink dumb bells out there lol. Anyway, you are doing well. I would recomend crunches and what I call reverse crunches where you do a crunch with your lower back muscles(lying on your belly) for core toning. Push ups and chin ups are good. Push ups make you use only a portion of your body weight where as chin ups are gonna use it all, so keep hanging and TRYING and BELIEVING that you can cuz it's possible. That dude saying women should use weights like men is off his rocker. Saying everyone should do weights is the wrong idea. I use dumb bells at most and I am fairly strong. MA needs speed, stability, a little strength and a lot of coordination and timing. IMO

Dear oh dear.

1) 'toning' does not exist
2) weights make you faster, more stable, stronger more powerful, and can improve coordination
3) the lower back exercise you recommended (superman) is very bad for the lumbar spine, it hyperextendes the lower back beyond healthy ROM, bad for a healthy back and I dread to think what it does to a bad back.
4) I can think of no reason why a woman shouldn't lift with the same intensity as man, could you please enlighten me? Just incase you know something the rest of the world doesn't.

Weights are not the only tool, but IMO one of the best.

[Doublejab]

He is ironically named fo sho

[Jezzikial]

Don't be afraid of 'bulking up', it is incredibly difficult for women to do this without chemical assistance.

If you can't do full chin ups, start by doing negatives. Jump up to the top position on the bar and lower yourself to a dead hang in as controlled a manner as possible. Doing sets of these should hepl you start to build the strength necessary to do full chin ups? If you have access to resistance bands you could use these to help with the chin ups.

I'm a bit reluctant to recommend stuff for you as your back injury will limit what you can do and I'm not a physio, but have a look at the the thread below for some ideas:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84178

I would suggest starting a thread asking for some advice - state what your goals are and what the problem with you back is and what advice you've already been given. There are some really helpful people on MAP who may be able to offer advice. Are you still seeing a Doctor about your back?

Sweet, thanks for your help. I will try those negative chin ups. Still see my doctor about my back as I am unfortunately still on meds for it so I may ask him what he recommends. I pretty much know that the only thing I can do for it is to strengthen the rest of my body to compensate, and so far it seems to be helping. I'll check out that thread too, cheers!

Thanks to everyone else for your help too. Sorry that I seemed to open up a can of worms in regards to weight training :)

[seiken steve]

Sweet, thanks for your help. I will try those negative chin ups. Still see my doctor about my back as I am unfortunately still on meds for it so I may ask him what he recommends. I pretty much know that the only thing I can do for it is to strengthen the rest of my body to compensate, and so far it seems to be helping. I'll check out that thread too, cheers!

Thanks to everyone else for your help too. Sorry that I seemed to open up a can of worms in regards to weight training :)

Don't worry, the internet pulls up lots of strangeness.

Atleast no one called us nazi's yet.

[Frodocious]

Thanks to everyone else for your help too. Sorry that I seemed to open up a can of worms in regards to weight training :)

It's not a can of worms, it's a fairly commonly held misconception that women should only train with light weights and high reps. It's completely wrong of course, but often spouted by clueless 'personal trainers', women who don't want to get 'big' and blokes with low self esteem, who can't handle a woman lifting more than they can! ;) :)

Don't worry, the internet pulls up lots of strangeness.

At least no one called us nazi's yet.

Nazi! ;) :D

[righty]

This is tricky for me as I always want to know everything right now. But then I realise most of the things I have learnt as I go have come at the right time. And if I knew it ahead of time it would have just been information overload.

But what I really wish I knew is the huge role diet plays in, well, pretty much everything. I used to think I could eat wantever I want, I'd just train more. Not quite.

[36chambers]

personally other than bench press free weight i would prefer using a machine instead of using stabilising muscles for free weight in general as your putting more effort into stabilising your weights with other muscles than directly working the muscles u want. for example dumbell curls (FREE WEIGHT) your using more wrist and fore arm with your bicep, where as i have stoped as much dumbell curls and moved onto a machine with a 1 hand grip and a wire and straight away you feel the bicep worked harder than you would free weight dumbell

[Moi]

personally other than bench press free weight i would prefer using a machine instead of using stabilising muscles for free weight in general as your putting more effort into stabilising your weights with other muscles than directly working the muscles u want. for example dumbell curls (FREE WEIGHT) your using more wrist and fore arm with your bicep, where as i have stoped as much dumbell curls and moved onto a machine with a 1 hand grip and a wire and straight away you feel the bicep worked harder than you would free weight dumbell

Sounds more like body building than strength training

[tonyv107]

personally other than bench press free weight i would prefer using a machine instead of using stabilising muscles for free weight in general as your putting more effort into stabilising your weights with other muscles than directly working the muscles u want. for example dumbell curls (FREE WEIGHT) your using more wrist and fore arm with your bicep, where as i have stoped as much dumbell curls and moved onto a machine with a 1 hand grip and a wire and straight away you feel the bicep worked harder than you would free weight dumbell

You haven't learnt a thing then if you honestly believe machines are better then freeweights/compound movements. Some isolating is fine but it should never make up the majority of your training.

In martial arts what movements are ever isolated? When throwing a punch you stabilize your core, push off your foot, turn your hips and extend your arm. I know bench press or Squats don't copy this movement entirely but they are still compound exercises.

[36chambers]

You haven't learnt a thing then if you honestly believe machines are better then freeweights/compound movements. Some isolating is fine but it should never make up the majority of your training.

In martial arts what movements are ever isolated? When throwing a punch you stabilize your core, push off your foot, turn your hips and extend your arm. I know bench press or Squats don't copy this movement entirely but they are still compound exercises.

i didnt say they were better as i said i freeweight bench press! ive bodybuilt for around 9 years and along with bodybuilding u gain STRENGH , if you lift weights you are basically bodybuilding simple. Q. in weightlifting what martial arts are ever isolated? if you wana gain slight strengh still be quick then stick to push ups chin ups ect i myself lift and press ups 150 evry morning thnx:)

[seiken steve]

personally other than bench press free weight i would prefer using a machine instead of using stabilising muscles for free weight in general as your putting more effort into stabilising your weights with other muscles than directly working the muscles u want. for example dumbell curls (FREE WEIGHT) your using more wrist and fore arm with your bicep, where as i have stoped as much dumbell curls and moved onto a machine with a 1 hand grip and a wire and straight away you feel the bicep worked harder than you would free weight dumbell

Since this is a newbie section I'm putting a disclaimer on this comment

Warning the above statement is wrong, compound free weight movements continue to reign superior, if you want effective strength training do the opposite to what is posted above.


The more muscles involved the better dude. This is strength training with a sports specific goal, isolation is rarely if not never used.

Had we been talking about bodybuilding the preacher machine does indeed give a great linear tension compared to a standard preacher curl, but even in BB compounds are used as a mainstay for hypertrophy.

[Jabby Mcgee]

i didnt say they were better as i said i freeweight bench press! ive bodybuilt for around 9 years and along with bodybuilding u gain STRENGH , if you lift weights you are basically bodybuilding simple. Q. in weightlifting what martial arts are ever isolated? if you wana gain slight strengh still be quick then stick to push ups chin ups ect i myself lift and press ups 150 evry morning thnx:)

No, strength training and bodybuilding are not the same thing. Whilst there is some overlap, the effect on the body's muscle fibres is completely different, provind different results depending on how you lift.

Bodybuilding tends to induce more sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, which involves the growth of sarcoplasm and non-contractile proteins that do not directly contribute to muscular force production. Basically, the muscles grow, without any signifigant increases in strength.

Strength training on the other hand tends to induce more myofibrillar hypertrophy which occurs as a result of an increase in the number of myosin/actin filaments in the muscle. This leads to greater filament density and the synthesis of contractile proteins, which effectively means greater force production.

With regards to using machines over free weights in order to isolate muscles, this is not particularly beneficial to either strength training or bodybuilding. A lot of isolation work should only be do by elite competative bodybuilders who aim to define certain areas of their body. Focussing solely on isolation exercises from the start however is akin to attempting to carve a statue with a very small chisel, instead of a large bolster one, when in reality you need to do the bulk of the work with the large chisel (compound movements), and then refine details using the small chisel (isolation exercises).

[36chambers]

Since this is a newbie section I'm putting a disclaimer on this comment

Warning the above statement is wrong, compound free weight movements continue to reign superior, if you want effective strength training do the opposite to what is posted above.


The more muscles involved the better dude. This is strength training with a sports specific goal, isolation is rarely if not never used.

Had we been talking about bodybuilding the preacher machine does indeed give a great linear tension compared to a standard preacher curl, but even in BB compounds are used as a mainstay for hypertrophy.
ok thnx but make sure you read the parts of my comment that say, personally,I and prefer. i didnt wright quik evry1 do wat im doing. its obvious to me youve not read my comment as i said i do bodybuild but at the same time i do MA its up to people to find for themselves what they want and what works. for me bodybuilding and MA has been good top strength and speed

[36chambers]

No, strength training and bodybuilding are not the same thing. Whilst there is some overlap, the effect on the body's muscle fibres is completely different, provind different results depending on how you lift.

Bodybuilding tends to induce more sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, which involves the growth of sarcoplasm and non-contractile proteins that do not directly contribute to muscular force production. Basically, the muscles grow, without any signifigant increases in strength.

Strength training on the other hand tends to induce more myofibrillar hypertrophy which occurs as a result of an increase in the number of myosin/actin filaments in the muscle. This leads to greater filament density and the synthesis of contractile proteins, which effectively means greater force production.

With regards to using machines over free weights in order to isolate muscles, this is not particularly beneficial to either strength training or bodybuilding. A lot of isolation work should only be do by elite competative bodybuilders who aim to define certain areas of their body. Focussing solely on isolation exercises from the start however is akin to attempting to carve a statue with a very small chisel, instead of a large bolster one, when in reality you need to do the bulk of the work with the large chisel (compound movements), and then refine details using the small chisel (isolation exercises).

well if thats the case then m8 i must have never started benching 20 kilos then to move onto 100 kilos it was all a blur

[Frodocious]

ok thnx but make sure you read the parts of my comment that say, personally,I and prefer. i didnt wright quik evry1 do wat im doing. its obvious to me youve not read my comment as i said i do bodybuild but at the same time i do MA its up to people to find for themselves what they want and what works. for me bodybuilding and MA has been good top strength and speed

MAP is an english language forum and we request that all posts are in English. Please don't use text speak in your posts.

This thread is for martial artists wishing to start strength training, not bodybuilders. Therefore the information in it is aimed at providing the best and most effective (and time efficient) methods of increasing strength for the purpose of martial arts and that is compound weightlifting with heavy free weights, not machines or isolation exercises. Machines often put the body in disadvantageous/unnatural positions which means their carryover to real life movements aren't as good as that of free weights.

[36chambers]

yes i do understand that i do freeweights myself. as i said in my first post

[seiken steve]

ok thnx but make sure you read the parts of my comment that say, personally,I and prefer. i didnt wright quik evry1 do wat im doing. its obvious to me youve not read my comment as i said i do bodybuild but at the same time i do MA its up to people to find for themselves what they want and what works. for me bodybuilding and MA has been good top strength and speed

Yeah, but posting something like that on a beginners lifting section isn't ideal is it mate?

Strength and speed training is strength and speed training, bodybuilding is bodybuilding.
For more scientific explination see jabby's post, as for me I have a non alcoholic low carb pint and a pub full of mates to get too, chat tomorrow.

X

[Jabby Mcgee]

well if thats the case then m8 i must have never started benching 20 kilos then to move onto 100 kilos it was all a blur

It is the case, based on extensive quantifiable, verifiable research. The fact that you can bench 100 kilos doesn't take anything away from that.

That's not to say that there isn't a corellation between strength and size. Working within 90% of you one rep max range causes failure to occur before a growth stimulus has been sent to the cells, so, you can get stronger, but not necessarily much bigger. On the other hand, high rep training produces high levels of phosphate and hydrogen ions, which enhance the growth process.

Current research suggests that heavy lifting enhances neural efficiency which enhances strength, but does not necessarily result in muscular growth. But, working inbetween high rep training and heavy weight training can provide a common groundwhere a certain amount of strength is built along with a certain amount of muscle - this is not optimum for powerlifting or bodybulding, per se, but is the best of both worlds.

The point Im trying to make is that there is a vast difference between bodybuilding and strength training. Whilst there may be an overlap, the definitions of both are very different. this is fairly self evident when you compare the physique a bodybuilder to the physique of a powerlifter.

[36chambers]

It is the case, based on extensive quantifiable, verifiable research. The fact that you can bench 100 kilos doesn't take anything away from that.

That's not to say that there isn't a corellation between strength and size. Working within 90% of you one rep max range causes failure to occur before a growth stimulus has been sent to the cells, so, you can get stronger, but not necessarily much bigger. On the other hand, high rep training produces high levels of phosphate and hydrogen ions, which enhance the growth process.

Current research suggests that heavy lifting enhances neural efficiency which enhances strength, but does not necessarily result in muscular growth. But, working inbetween high rep training and heavy weight training can provide a common groundwhere a certain amount of strength is built along with a certain amount of muscle - this is not optimum for powerlifting or bodybulding, per se, but is the best of both worlds.

The point Im trying to make is that there is a vast difference between bodybuilding and strength training. Whilst there may be an overlap, the definitions of both are very different. this is fairly self evident when you compare the physique a bodybuilder to the physique of a powerlifter.

its not the fact that i can bench one hundred kilos your correct. its the fact of the distance and strenght gain between twenty kilos and one hundred kilos doin a mixture of wat i did. now i know i made a mistake on a beginners thread but i think its fair to say you have all misread my original post . as im new to the website myself but not in training thanks for your very scientific approach good night:)

[Moi]

its not the fact that i can bench one hundred kilos your correct. its the fact of the distance and strenght gain between twenty kilos and one hundred kilos doin a mixture of wat i did. now i know i made a mistake on a beginners thread but i think its fair to say you have all misread my original post . as im new to the website myself but not in training thanks for your very scientific approach good night:)

Don't worry mate because of the wealth of knowledge here you can get very precise answers. As it happens I've just started lifting and I'm doing what you're advising knowing it's not the best way but it sure is the easiest way to start. As time has gone on more free weights seem to be calling but machines sure help at the beginning :)

[Jabby Mcgee]

its not the fact that i can bench one hundred kilos your correct. its the fact of the distance and strenght gain between twenty kilos and one hundred kilos doin a mixture of wat i did. now i know i made a mistake on a beginners thread but i think its fair to say you have all misread my original post . as im new to the website myself but not in training thanks for your very scientific approach good night:)

Fair enough. peace :Angel:

[Plimft]

How about:

- sitting on the internet googling exercise programs does not equate to time spent training

- balancing out your diet doesn't just mean taking supplements

- balancing out your diet cannot be done by cutting out entire foodgroups, that's why it's called a balanced diet

- carbs are your friend, no matter what that silverback in the gym says. Sure, he can bench 400lbs, but he does 3 reps then he's spent

- body building and strength training are two completely different things. Learn the difference. Remember the difference. Apply this knowledge to your goals

- many personal trainers don't know what they're talking about

- even more websites don't know what they're talking about

- if you do something, and it works, then it works. It doesn't matter that the latest fad training regime swears against it, there's not greater proof than results

I know some of these have already been covered, but I thought I'd mention them again just because I'd forgotten which had been covered and which hadn't. I'm sure I've still got many many many many many entries to add to my list! Which brings me to the next one:

- accept that you don't know everything. Every program has room for improvement!

And the last one:

- buy a kettlebell! It'll be the best thing you ever do!!!!!

Osu,

Matt

[Zaad]

- balancing out your diet cannot be done by cutting out entire foodgroups, that's why it's called a balanced diet

- carbs are your friend, no matter what that silverback in the gym says. Sure, he can bench 400lbs, but he does 3 reps then he's spent


- buy a kettlebell! It'll be the best thing you ever do!!!!!


You can quite easily cut out food rich in sugar and fat as well as dairy and cereals - potatoes and yams are good alternative carbs.

The guy can only bench 400lb for 3 reps because he might still be progressing or its the way that hes training that limits him. with guys at that level the problem has little to do with nutrition.

a kettle bell is just the newest fad promoted by personal trainers. its useful and great tool but like you said following the latest fad in training is silly.

This is great advice:
if you do something, and it works, then it works. It doesn't matter that the latest fad training regime swears against it, there's not greater proof than results
everyone should do this. so many people jump program after the first week

[Plimft]

Zaad -

When I talk about diet, it's about mistakes I made when I was starting out. With regards to balanced diets and food groups, you're right, taking a more moderate approach to what you take in is a good one, cutting out sugars etc is not cutting carbs, it's just cutting the types or carbs that don't particularly do much good.

As for the 400lbs benching guy, he was a guy I was talking to in the gym who was telling me I should cut out all carbs, he was a big guy and ripped, but had very little stamina or staying power. He wasn't training with the same goals as me, which is why his advice wasn't compatible with how I was training, but that didn't stop him giving it, hence the 'some people don't know what they're taking about' advice listed also.

And as for the kettlebell, see the 'if something works, stick with it' point. I blame Pavel. His Power to the People program was good, but his Enter the Kettlebell was brilliant. A fad? Perhaps. Results? Definitley. And that's all I really care about. They're not for everyone. They can be boring, and if you don't pay attention, they can be dangerous. But I love them, and they work.

Osu,

Matt

[Zaad]

As for the 400lbs benching guy, he was a guy I was talking to in the gym who was telling me I should cut out all carbs, he was a big guy and ripped, but had very little stamina or staying power. He wasn't training with the same goals as me, which is why his advice wasn't compatible with how I was training, but that didn't stop him giving it, hence the 'some people don't know what they're taking about' advice listed also.
I get a body builder friend giving me BB advice. he's just started MMA and now understand the difficulties i have with training and scheduling.
cutting out all carbs is insane. unmonitored carbs are the scary thing.

And as for the kettlebell, see the 'if something works, stick with it' point. I blame Pavel. His Power to the People program was good, but his Enter the Kettlebell was brilliant. A fad? Perhaps. Results? Definitley. And that's all I really care about. They're not for everyone. They can be boring, and if you don't pay attention, they can be dangerous. But I love them, and they work.

My uncle was telling my about a Pavel book, sounded awesome!
kettle bells are a great way to build everything.
what book do you recommend?

.

[Plimft]

Zaad -

Enter the Kettlebell, by Pavel Tsatsouline.

It's the mutts. Like I say, they're not for everyone. Pavel himself states that his programs and approach aren't entertaining. I believe his quote is something along the lines of "if you want to be entertained, go to the movies. If you want to get fitter and stronger then follow my program." But it's hard work. Like I say, they're not for everyone, but if you can get on with them I don't think you'll look back.

If you don't want to give up the barbell though, Power To The People, also by Pavel, is an awesome book. Both well worth a look.

As an aside, what I will say about Pavel is that alot of his training programs are ideally suited to MA training. They build strength and conditioning without hampering flexibility.

All that said though, I don't half miss squats and deads...

Osu,

Matt

[Zaad]

Zaad -

Enter the Kettlebell, by Pavel Tsatsouline.

It's the mutts. Like I say, they're not for everyone. Pavel himself states that his programs and approach aren't entertaining. I believe his quote is something along the lines of "if you want to be entertained, go to the movies. If you want to get fitter and stronger then follow my program." But it's hard work. Like I say, they're not for everyone, but if you can get on with them I don't think you'll look back.

If you don't want to give up the barbell though, Power To The People, also by Pavel, is an awesome book. Both well worth a look.

As an aside, what I will say about Pavel is that alot of his training programs are ideally suited to MA training. They build strength and conditioning without hampering flexibility.

All that said though, I don't half miss squats and deads...

Osu,

Matt

you dont squat and dead? :cry:
does Power To The People have Deads in?

[Plimft]

Power to the People does indeed have deads in it. It's all deads and bench presses. When you get into it a bit more you can introduce pull ups and side presses.

Nope, no deads or squats for me :(

Osu,

Matt

[Frodocious]

Guys, please don't clog up this thread with back and forth banter. Start another thread or take it to pm. We are trying to keep this thread as something people can read easily through, not have to jump around spammy chatter type posts.

[tkd_warrior]

I wish I should have invested time into my mental conditioning. I just recently found out that it is very helpful especially if there are a lot of distractions and pressure.