Building cardio fast

[Zerodauto]

After doing my second amateur fight and losing my dad who was working my corner pointed out that although I am good, and i could have beaten my opponent, my cardio killed me. I'm not going to lie, I don't really do any extra cardio out side of TKD class. We sometimes jog around inside the school, but it's not enough to really show any significant progress. We also do jump rope but still it's not enough. I want to build my cardio as fast as I can, while still being safe. So I come here to ask, how to quickly build cardio level if at all possible to build it quickly?

[tonyv107]

Sparring, and bagwork comes to mind.

[Zerodauto]

Sparring, and bagwork comes to mind.

Thanks, I also have no problem with during real running and doing more with the rope, any recommendations for that?

[tonyv107]

Well the way I see it running/jogging, skipping, rows, cycling etc, are good for cardio. But since that is usually low intensity exercise it doesn't really carry over into fights or sparring where you make explosive movements it comes closer to a high intensity match. HIIT involving some bagwork and plyrometrics as well as just sparring for full duration rounds would probably be your best bet. I have not trained in TKD but I assume training for most MA's is similar when it comes to cardio.

[Zerodauto]

Thanks, I'll make sure to spar more often and use the bag more.

[tonyv107]

No problem buddy. Projectswole.com has some good examples for HIIT routines. Be creative, I'd suggest makin each set the length of a round.

[SolidX]

The most simplest solutions in my opinion will be the most effective. Such as jogging,running,fast sprints,rope and bag work.

[SenseiMattKlein]

I think Tony has it right, above. You need explosive movements, and interval training "short bursts of speed", within your runs are the best and quickest way to develop fitness for fighting. Sparring for four minutes if your amateur fights are three is a good way of training, or adding another round or two on at the end. Good luck in your next fight.

[Master Betty]

Tony's completely correct mate. I don't know what you're school looks like but from experience, most TKD places I've seen don't train particularly hard. Too many of them are family based clubs or based on points sparring for which the training really doesn't need to be intense. Now, you haven't said, but I assume you're fighting amateur kickboxing? If you don't get any padwork that looks even remotely like this then you need to make some serious adjustments..

YouTube - Kiatphontip Gym Training Compilation .wmv

for running you need a mix of long slow runs and high intensity sprints. Skipping is good for keeping the weight down but not much else except warming up for a session. train in rounds a minute or two longer than those you'll fight in and make sure that every time you hit a bag or pad, you do it like you mean it. I don't mean with a bit of power - I mean make every single shot like you want it to kill someone. Some circuit training at the end with, as tony said, good plyometric and core exercises are very good as you want to build up your fast twitch muscle fibre - not loads of useless, bulky and stiff muscle. Fast twitch muscle fibre is what makes you react with speed and power.

If you're not doing even one of these things then you're giving away more and more advantages to your opponents, most of whom WILL be doing these things.

[slipthejab]

Hill sprints. In sets.
So a 500 meter sprint X5 with 1 min break in between.

[icefield]

what length of rounds do you fight, how many rounds do you fight and when is your next fight, how often do you attend class and what are those classes like?


All those things are important to consider before giving advise out

[Zerodauto]

what length of rounds do you fight, how many rounds do you fight and when is your next fight, how often do you attend class and what are those classes like?


All those things are important to consider before giving advise out

Usually they are 3x two minute rounds, next fight is feb. 26th. I usually go to class about two or three days a week, but it's not limited, my master would like us to attend everyday, something I think I should start doing. Besides the long runs and sparring class is what everyone's recommendations are. I think that I also need to start learning to use my TKD in the ring, because after replaying the fight over and over again in my mind and comparing it to my first fight, I realized that I try to out box people who are better boxers than me instead of making them fight my fight and try to out kick me. I'm going to start going out for runs ever morning if I can and get to class everyday I can. We do sparring but the only time we can really go all out is during belt test. So after I warm up before class I'll start going a few rounds on the heavy bag. Should be starting to work out and train with a friend of mine that does muay Thai soon also. I also greatly appreciate everyones advice. It's very helpful and it makes me feel better to know that I can improve with the right conditioning.

[tonyv107]

Aye you can make the length of your interval training 2 minutes long with a one minute rest. I would also suggest heavier sparring then what I've seen in TKD classes, I your MT friend is willing and you both have protective gear it would be a great idea to spar with him for 2 minute rounds like a normal fight. Just remember to be safe and have a qualified supervisor/ref incase things get out of hand. I say this because I lost a best friend to silly backyard boxing matches we would have back I'm highschool. Now that I think about it we werent exactly safe about what we did. But seein as you're amateur I don't see a problem with sparring with your MT friend. Have him do HIIT with you as well, it's easier to motivate yourself when you train with a partner.

Edit. Stupid iPhone, I hate autofill I gotta start proof reading all my posts.

[Master Betty]

Usually they are 3x two minute rounds, next fight is feb. 26th. I usually go to class about two or three days a week, but it's not limited, my master would like us to attend everyday, something I think I should start doing. Besides the long runs and sparring class is what everyone's recommendations are. I think that I also need to start learning to use my TKD in the ring, because after replaying the fight over and over again in my mind and comparing it to my first fight, I realized that I try to out box people who are better boxers than me instead of making them fight my fight and try to out kick me. I'm going to start going out for runs ever morning if I can and get to class everyday I can. We do sparring but the only time we can really go all out is during belt test. So after I warm up before class I'll start going a few rounds on the heavy bag. Should be starting to work out and train with a friend of mine that does muay Thai soon also. I also greatly appreciate everyones advice. It's very helpful and it makes me feel better to know that I can improve with the right conditioning.

Honestly? I wouldn't try to fight like a TKD guy if kickboxing is your thing. Yes, don't try to outbox a boxer but at the end of the day, most of the people you'll find judging amateur kickboxing come from a boxing background.

If you really want to think of the future then I'd say get yourself along to a good boxing gym and cross train.

[slickoneuk]

I notice in the vid above that they are all wearing full size gloves, even when using the heavy bag. I assume this is to allow you to become very at home with full gloves on

[Master Betty]

I notice in the vid above that they are all wearing full size gloves, even when using the heavy bag. I assume this is to allow you to become very at home with full gloves on

Typically speaking in amateur kickboxing in britain you'll fight with a set of 10oz gloves below 70kg and 12oz above. In thai boxing its 8oz and 10oz. I train with a set of 16s for sparring, pad and bagwork because it makes me much faster and more powerful with the fighting weight gloves on when the time comes. You should ALWAYS train with the gloves on.

[Zerodauto]

Honestly? I wouldn't try to fight like a TKD guy if kickboxing is your thing. Yes, don't try to outbox a boxer but at the end of the day, most of the people you'll find judging amateur kickboxing come from a boxing background.

If you really want to think of the future then I'd say get yourself along to a good boxing gym and cross train.

We actually learn boxing punches at my school.

I notice in the vid above that they are all wearing full size gloves, even when using the heavy bag. I assume this is to allow you to become very at home with full gloves on

Yes, I always practice with full sized gloves, and what ever other safety gear I will have to wear.

[Master Betty]

We actually learn boxing punches at my school.



Yes, I always practice with full sized gloves, and what ever other safety gear I will have to wear.

Learning boxing punches is a far cry from learning boxing. That's exactly WHY you're previous two fights were against better boxers than you. Most kickboxing gyms these days that stic kto above waist only are basically glorified boxing gyms - thats what scores really well in the amateurs.

[Mitch]

You wouldn't train for a baseball match by playing test cricket :). If you want to fight under kickboxing rules you need to train for kickboxing, not TKD. For now, arrange to train under the appropriate ruleset with anyone who will spar with you.

For the future, if kickboxing fights are what you want to do, go train in kickboxing.

Mitch

[Zerodauto]

You wouldn't train for a baseball match by playing test cricket :). If you want to fight under kickboxing rules you need to train for kickboxing, not TKD. For now, arrange to train under the appropriate ruleset with anyone who will spar with you.

For the future, if kickboxing fights are what you want to do, go train in kickboxing.

Mitch

I just want to one day fight in K-1. So I'm getting the experience fighting in kickboxing with international rule set, rules (http://ibfpromo.com/rules-pages/international-kb.html) . The only difference from the rules that we allowed to do was leg kicks to inside and out of legs, just no direct joint attacks.

As I said earlier, my dad said I was good, he said if I had my cardio up i could have easily won. He's also not the type to try and make you feel better, he's not afraid to say I told you so and put it in you face.

[Master Betty]

I just want to one day fight in K-1. So I'm getting the experience fighting in kickboxing with international rule set, rules (http://ibfpromo.com/rules-pages/international-kb.html) . The only difference from the rules that we allowed to do was leg kicks to inside and out of legs, just no direct joint attacks.

As I said earlier, my dad said I was good, he said if I had my cardio up i could have easily won. He's also not the type to try and make you feel better, he's not afraid to say I told you so and put it in you face.

If your goal is to eventually fight in K1 then scratch the cross training in boxing - get yourself along to a decent thai boxing gym and learn EVERTHING they can tell you. An overwhelming majority of the best K1 fighters at all weights train in thai boxing and they do it for a reason. The scoring criteria is much more similar to thai boxing than kickboxing and certainly TKD. You'll learn how to throw leg kicks and knees better than any other martial art will generally teach you. More importantly, you'll learn to defend against them properly.

As said though, the biggest change is the scoring. Amateur kickboxing is basically full contact points fighting. you get awarded a point for the touch, not the effect. K1 scores effect, agression and workrate. The only one of these that is REQUIRED in full contact kickboxing is workrate.

[m1k3jobs]

I agree with the train the way you are going to fight message. Anything else is just doing yourself a disservice.

The one recommendation I didn't hear was shadowboxing. Another good way to develop cardio and technique at the same time. Mix it in with your bag and pad work.

[Zerodauto]

If your goal is to eventually fight in K1 then scratch the cross training in boxing - get yourself along to a decent thai boxing gym and learn EVERTHING they can tell you. An overwhelming majority of the best K1 fighters at all weights train in thai boxing and they do it for a reason. The scoring criteria is much more similar to thai boxing than kickboxing and certainly TKD. You'll learn how to throw leg kicks and knees better than any other martial art will generally teach you. More importantly, you'll learn to defend against them properly.

As said though, the biggest change is the scoring. Amateur kickboxing is basically full contact points fighting. you get awarded a point for the touch, not the effect. K1 scores effect, agression and workrate. The only one of these that is REQUIRED in full contact kickboxing is workrate.

Even so, I'd still like to stick with TKD, there are a few good TKD fighter in K-1 also; Serkan Yilmaz and Keiji Ozaki. I know Muay Thai is a "harder(power wise)" style, but when I use my TKD in cross style sparring it's never a fails me.

As for defending against them, I learned/am learning during sparring with my friends who do Muay Thai. I don't have a problem adjusting to different rule sets.

[tonyv107]

Good luck in your training you should post a vid of your next
Fight

[Zerodauto]

Good luck in your training you should post a vid of your next
Fight

Thanks, I will make sure I do.

[RatchadaNinja]

Pads and bag work arn't going to help with cardio. People might think it does, but unless they themselves have struggled with cardio and had to objectively fix the problem, they're just talking BS.

I lost my first pro fight due to TKO in the third round, just threw in the towel because I was out of breath. I'm a superheavyweight.

My problem was I did no cardio at all - only bag and pad work and I thought that was enough. The reason I was skipping on cardio was because I get bad shin splints, so running and skipping were always out of the question. If you do not suffer from shin splints, I recommend running straight away - the best kind of running is about a 20 minute run at the best pace you can manage and without stopping, every now and then break into a full sprint for 75m or so so that you add some high intensity to it.

But since I can't run, I had to design a workout to improve my cardio for fighting and what I came up with I think is better than running anyway. The exercise is anaerobic - meaning it teaches you to use power at the same time as cardio, which is actually more practical for fighting than basic running. You need a clock and time yourself - the exercise should be done in 20 minutes and WITHOUT STOPPING AT ALL (you can stop for 10 seconds once or twice to sip some water if you need to, but that's it). Basically, you just do something like this:

Jogging on the spot, 30 seconds
Star jumps, 30 seconds,
20 push ups
20 squats
15 burpees
Jogging on the spot whilst punching to the front, 30 seconds
High knees, 30 seconds (high knees is where you jog on the spot, but with each step you hoist you knee up to above waist height - this is hard work)
Star jumps, 30 seconds
Jump knee bag 30 times (Muay Thai)
High knees, 30 seconds
15 burpees
Jogging on the spot, 30 seconds
(and the key to all this is speed speed speed - do these exercises quick and don't mess around)
(Keep repeating these exercises until the clock ticks to 20 minutes)

Whatever, you get the idea. Add your own exercises and stuff - I do more than this, but this gives you an idea. If you do something that is too high intensity, like burpees, and you get screwed, just cool down by jogging on the spot, but just don't stop. Keeping doing exercises one after the other for 20 minutes. The more high intensity exercises you throw in there the better - try not to spend too much time jogging on the spot.

The reason cardio exercises are more vital for breath than bag and pad work is bag and pad work is defined by your current fitness level and does not seek to push you enough. There is also too many intervals in the breathing, too much stopping and messing around. Progress will be slow at best. Contrary to what Master Betty tells you - no Thai gym is going to tell you to do bag and pad work to increase your cardio - they spend 1 - 2 hours a day running and skipping for their cardio, and bag and pad work is more for technique, power and conditioning, NOT CARDIO.

I've been doing this high intensity anaerobics for a couple months now at about 5 times a week and I've noticed an increase in my ability to sustain power and speed when I do go to striking the bag and I've no doubt it's from this anaerobics alone. I'm fighting in a week or two, have to call promoter, it will be a test of how well this has worked I think. I'll post fight details on this forum after it so if you see it you can see if I say I gas out or not this time, but I know I won't and I've fixed my own cardio problem already.

[Master Betty]

Even so, I'd still like to stick with TKD, there are a few good TKD fighter in K-1 also; Serkan Yilmaz and Keiji Ozaki. I know Muay Thai is a "harder(power wise)" style, but when I use my TKD in cross style sparring it's never a fails me.

As for defending against them, I learned/am learning during sparring with my friends who do Muay Thai. I don't have a problem adjusting to different rule sets.

For the record, they are the ONLY TKD guys in K1 and they aint good lol.

But at the end of the day, I'm not suggesting you quit TKD. But you simpy aren't going to get the training you need at virtually most TKD places in the world. I can tell you right now that Serkan Yilmaz has cross trained in boxing and thai boxing.

It's fine and well enough if you want to do TKD, if you liek it, keep doing it. But I'm just trying to be realistic man, without training outside of TKD, you simply won't be good enough. The few purely TKD guys who fought in K1 back in the day when it was a completely open tournament got their butts handed to them. There's nobody of a decent level in K1, nobody of a decent level in amateur or professional kickboxing and nobody of a decent level in shootboxing who uses primarily TKD as their main striking style.

Indeed, even serkan yilmaz tends to fight in a style roughly similar to that of the rest of the K1 guys - he just throws a lot more spinning back kicks. and call me cynical, but theres a lot of TKD guys watch K1 now that wouldnt before, simply because he's there. He has a market, and he needs to keep it. The fans pay the bills baby.

[Master Betty]

Pads and bag work arn't going to help with cardio. People might think it does, but unless they themselves have struggled with cardio and had to objectively fix the problem, they're just talking BS.

I lost my first pro fight due to TKO in the third round, just threw in the towel because I was out of breath. I'm a superheavyweight.

My problem was I did no cardio at all - only bag and pad work and I thought that was enough. The reason I was skipping on cardio was because I get bad shin splints, so running and skipping were always out of the question. If you do not suffer from shin splints, I recommend running straight away - the best kind of running is about a 20 minute run at the best pace you can manage and without stopping, every now and then break into a full sprint for 75m or so so that you add some high intensity to it.

But since I can't run, I had to design a workout to improve my cardio for fighting and what I came up with I think is better than running anyway. The exercise is anaerobic - meaning it teaches you to use power at the same time as cardio, which is actually more practical for fighting than basic running. You need a clock and time yourself - the exercise should be done in 20 minutes and WITHOUT STOPPING AT ALL (you can stop for 10 seconds once or twice to sip some water if you need to, but that's it). Basically, you just do something like this:

Jogging on the spot, 30 seconds
Star jumps, 30 seconds,
20 push ups
20 squats
15 burpees
Jogging on the spot whilst punching to the front, 30 seconds
High knees, 30 seconds (high knees is where you jog on the spot, but with each step you hoist you knee up to above waist height - this is hard work)
Star jumps, 30 seconds
Jump knee bag 30 times (Muay Thai)
High knees, 30 seconds
15 burpees
Jogging on the spot, 30 seconds
(and the key to all this is speed speed speed - do these exercises quick and don't mess around)
(Keep repeating these exercises until the clock ticks to 20 minutes)

Whatever, you get the idea. Add your own exercises and stuff - I do more than this, but this gives you an idea. If you do something that is too high intensity, like burpees, and you get screwed, just cool down by jogging on the spot, but just don't stop. Keeping doing exercises one after the other for 20 minutes. The more high intensity exercises you throw in there the better - try not to spend too much time jogging on the spot.

The reason cardio exercises are more vital for breath than bag and pad work is bag and pad work is defined by your current fitness level and does not seek to push you enough. There is also too many intervals in the breathing, too much stopping and messing around. Progress will be slow at best. Contrary to what Master Betty tells you - no Thai gym is going to tell you to do bag and pad work to increase your cardio - they spend 1 - 2 hours a day running and skipping for their cardio, and bag and pad work is more for technique, power and conditioning, NOT CARDIO.

I've been doing this high intensity anaerobics for a couple months now at about 5 times a week and I've noticed an increase in my ability to sustain power and speed when I do go to striking the bag and I've no doubt it's from this anaerobics alone. I'm fighting in a week or two, have to call promoter, it will be a test of how well this has worked I think. I'll post fight details on this forum after it so if you see it you can see if I say I gas out or not this time, but I know I won't and I've fixed my own cardio problem already.

Mate if you're hitting pads right they most definately work your cardio... but nobody's claiming that it's all you need. Frankly I'm amazed that any gym matched you for professional fights without making sure you were doing your roadwork - especially at your weight because it's almost expected of guys at your weight to gas after the 2nd round.

[Axelator]

I didn't read the thread so I'll probably be repeating stuff.

How many rounds do you go and how long are the rounds?

I'm going to assume you're probably fighting for less than 10 minutes (excluding the breaks between rounds. So you need to work your anerobic system. Here's a couple of things I do to get in shape for fights.

Barbell complexes. Get a fairly light weight (I weigh 80kg and use a 35kg barbell atm) and you will be doing 8 exercises with a weight without putting the weight down. Here's the one I do.

8 reps of deadlifts (not going to the ground between each rep just shin height)
8 reps of bent over rows
8 reps of upright rows
8 reps of power cleans
8 reps of push and press
8 reps of squats
8 reps of good mornings
8 reps of lunges (8 on each leg)

I use a barbell, if you don't have acess to that anything will do. Dumbells, sandbag whatever. You dont have to do the exercise slisted either, but do about 8 and make sure they're full body exercises. after all the exercises are done put the weight down rest for a minute, repeat. If you're in decent shape maybe you can manage 4 sets, if you can do more increase the weight.

Also do sprints. Run 100m, walk back to the start line and repeat 5 times, then do 400m 'sprints' too. Maybe 3-4 sets with a 90 second break.

Burpees are a good exercise for anerobic conditioning. Do them with a push up. Try working up to 5x3 minute rounds (I think that will be hard to reach).

HIIT is good. Jog for 30 seconds then sprint for 15 repeat for 10 minutes, once you can do that increase the sprinting time and decrease the time spent jogging.

That's all I can think of right now. Also I imagine you were nervous in your fight, as you get less nervous you will feel less tired in your fights as you relax more.


Also TKD in my experience is not a good style for full contact fighting. When I spar with guys who come from that abckground they quite often land alot of shots as they have unorthodox kicks I'm not used to seeing. However they lack power and when they start getting hit they fall to pieces.

Edit: I also had (and still have to an extent) shin splints. HIIT can be done on various exercise machines (rowing, spinners, cross trainers) and barbell complexes and pretty low impact.

[Zerodauto]

For the record, they are the ONLY TKD guys in K1 and they aint good lol.

But at the end of the day, I'm not suggesting you quit TKD. But you simpy aren't going to get the training you need at virtually most TKD places in the world. I can tell you right now that Serkan Yilmaz has cross trained in boxing and thai boxing.

It's fine and well enough if you want to do TKD, if you liek it, keep doing it. But I'm just trying to be realistic man, without training outside of TKD, you simply won't be good enough. The few purely TKD guys who fought in K1 back in the day when it was a completely open tournament got their butts handed to them. There's nobody of a decent level in K1, nobody of a decent level in amateur or professional kickboxing and nobody of a decent level in shootboxing who uses primarily TKD as their main striking style.

Indeed, even serkan yilmaz tends to fight in a style roughly similar to that of the rest of the K1 guys - he just throws a lot more spinning back kicks. and call me cynical, but theres a lot of TKD guys watch K1 now that wouldnt before, simply because he's there. He has a market, and he needs to keep it. The fans pay the bills baby.

I guess i'll have to be the first.




Also TKD in my experience is not a good style for full contact fighting. When I spar with guys who come from that abckground they quite often land alot of shots as they have unorthodox kicks I'm not used to seeing. However they lack power and when they start getting hit they fall to pieces.



I know about the fact that most TKD fighters lack power in their kicks. After formally hating TKD then finding my school and falling in love with it, I really thing my school is one of those exceptions the more and more I talk to people. When ever I cross spar, I have never had a problem holding my own against other styles such as Muay Thai, Chinese Sanda, and a guy who claimed to have studied Shoalin kung fu and Wing Chun, among other styles. So is it that everyone I spar with no rules suck, or me being an exception to the TKD no power sucky kicks rule, or is it my school teaching real TKD that makes the difference?

[Master Betty]

I guess i'll have to be the first.



I know about the fact that most TKD fighters lack power in their kicks. After formally hating TKD then finding my school and falling in love with it, I really thing my school is one of those exceptions the more and more I talk to people. When ever I cross spar, I have never had a problem holding my own against other styles such as Muay Thai, Chinese Sanda, and a guy who claimed to have studied Shoalin kung fu and Wing Chun, among other styles. So is it that everyone I spar with no rules suck, or me being an exception to the TKD no power sucky kicks rule, or is it my school teaching real TKD that makes the difference?

we'd have to see a video to say

[Zerodauto]

we'd have to see a video to say

Okay, friday I'm going to be doing so full contact no rules sparring/fighting over a friend's I'll take my camera

[Master Betty]

Okay, friday I'm going to be doing so full contact no rules sparring/fighting over a friend's I'll take my camera

Does your friend have any training?

[PASmith]

full contact no rules sparring/fighting over a friend's

Oxymoron?
I wouldn't fight no rules with someone I'd call a friend.

[tonyv107]

Oxymoron?
I wouldn't fight no rules with someone I'd call a friend.

I think by no rules he meant all strikes are allowed. Even then I wouldn't be to fond of elbowing or throwing a knee into my friends face.

[Zerodauto]

Does your friend have any training?

Yes, he knows some kung fu, muay thai, karate, and few other things. He's been training for years.

[Yohan]

Interval training. Interval training. Interval training.

[Master Betty]

Yes, he knows some kung fu, muay thai, karate, and few other things. He's been training for years.

No offence man, but that sounds like none at all. Dabbling in many different martial arts for years doesnt make a well trained person. Better to put up a video of you sparring with someone experienced.

[Axelator]

I'm interested in seeing the sparring. However I might be wrong and will apologise if I am but I think this sparring is going to be bad.

[RatchadaNinja]

Mate if you're hitting pads right they most definately work your cardio... but nobody's claiming that it's all you need. Frankly I'm amazed that any gym matched you for professional fights without making sure you were doing your roadwork - especially at your weight because it's almost expected of guys at your weight to gas after the 2nd round.You must have missed the parts on shin splints. They told me to do road work, I told them I couldn't. Not speaking the same languages was also a factor. Bad communication. But when you don't have a choice and just can't do any serious amount of running, you just get in the ring anyway. Wasn't anyones fault, just a learning experience.

Pads is not a cardio exercise. Stop being daft. When someone asks for cardio help, don't recommend any random old exercise. The main problem with pads = cardio is you stop about every 3 - 5 minutes and sit down for a minute or few. Cardio needs to be sustained. You'll usually only do 3 - 5 rounds on the pads, so that's only 12 - 20 minutes of exercise with breaks in it. Not going to make any serious progress. To work the lungs properly and develop fight fitness, your exericse needs to be over 20 minutes long and with no breaks and include both high and low intensity variations. Even if you chose to do a 20+ minute single round on the pads, you'd be ruining the point of the exercise, given you'd tire and lose power and ferocity and it would be niether good for developing power and conditioning as the exercise is meant for nor good for cardio because you stop too much.

[Master Betty]

You must have missed the parts on shin splints. They told me to do road work, I told them I couldn't. Not speaking the same languages was also a factor. Bad communication. But when you don't have a choice and just can't do any serious amount of running, you just get in the ring anyway. Wasn't anyones fault, just a learning experience.

Pads is not a cardio exercise. Stop being daft. When someone asks for cardio help, don't recommend any random old exercise. The main problem with pads = cardio is you stop about every 3 - 5 minutes and sit down for a minute or few. Cardio needs to be sustained. You'll usually only do 3 - 5 rounds on the pads, so that's only 12 - 20 minutes of exercise with breaks in it. Not going to make any serious progress. To work the lungs properly and develop fight fitness, your exericse needs to be over 20 minutes long and with no breaks and include both high and low intensity variations. Even if you chose to do a 20+ minute single round on the pads, you'd be ruining the point of the exercise, given you'd tire and lose power and ferocity and it would be niether good for developing power and conditioning as the exercise is meant for nor good for cardio because you stop too much.

Are you telling me you've never been at the the pads hard enough in 3 minutes time to be blowing out your rear end? That's an issue in your training right there you should rectify. Yes pads are for technique, power and speed training - but a cardio exercise they most definately are. Doing 10 rounds on the pads properly is equivelant of doing sprints for that length of time. I wouldn't necessarily call hard padwork HIIT but it's definately high intensity.

Next time you have shin splints and can't run - go for a swim instead. Nothing beats running, but swimming will work your core all the time you focus on breathing. And if you're doing swim sprints then you can work your cardio pretty well whilst your shin splints actually heal. I remember hearing from a physio that swimming is really good for things like this because the pressure of the water also helps to reduce minor swelling.

[slipthejab]

There isn't going to be any reduction of swelling just by being in the water. Not sure what physio came up with that but I'd really doubt there's any benefit from the water pressure against any swelling.

Also if anyone's going to swim to benefit their Muay Thai training... get a swim coach and learn proper technique... once you have that technique you can then swim sprint drills... anything less is a total waste of time with very little carry over to Muay Thai.

[Master Betty]

There isn't going to be any reduction of swelling just by being in the water. Not sure what physio came up with that but I'd really doubt there's any benefit from the water pressure against any swelling.

Also if anyone's going to swim to benefit their Muay Thai training... get a swim coach and learn proper technique... once you have that technique you can then swim sprint drills... anything less is a total waste of time with very little carry over to Muay Thai.

I suppose I sometimes take it for granted that everyone can swim at an ok level.

[PASmith]

I remember hearing from a physio that swimming is really good for things like this because the pressure of the water also helps to reduce minor swelling.

Hah...where are you swimming? The mariana trench?
You'd have to swim pretty deep to get any kind of pressure from the water to effect swelling IMHO.

The main problem with pads = cardio is you stop about every 3 - 5 minutes and sit down for a minute or few.

That's not a problem that's replicating a fight with rounds! It's an advantage.
Do pads hard enough and you will be basically replicating your fight cardio needs almost exactly.
As Betty says it's not the only or exclusive way you build cardio (most Thai's do a long run in the morning for example) but pads can build cardio (and the right kind of cardio too).
Get a good pad man with shinnies, belly pad and some Thai pads, allow him to attack ,call combo's and he'll have you puffing in no time.

[tonyv107]

I suppose I sometimes take it for granted that everyone can swim at an ok level.

It's not that difficult to learn proper technique. Especially If you are swimming free style. Getting the right form is a little tougher or butterfly and even breast stroke( working the legs correctly was my biggest issue with this one. I doubt you need a coach to show you swim form, you could probably just ask
Another swimmer in the pool for some pointers. I can't believe I never thought of swimming for my fight cardio. 3 minute intervals with a one minute rest would be perfect swimming definitely helps to improve your breathing.

A little pointer. If doin freestyle this us what you want your breathing to look like. Inhale completely, right, left ,right, breath, left, right, left, breath, etc. As you are swimming between breaths you should be blowing air out of your nose so that when you come up for air your lungs and completely empty.

[Master Betty]

It's not that difficult to learn proper technique. Especially If you are swimming free style. Getting the right form is a little tougher or butterfly and even breast stroke( working the legs correctly was my biggest issue with this one. I doubt you need a coach to show you swim form, you could probably just ask
Another swimmer in the pool for some pointers. I can't believe I never thought of swimming for my fight cardio. 3 minute intervals with a one minute rest would be perfect swimming definitely helps to improve your breathing.

A little pointer. If doin freestyle this us what you want your breathing to look like. Inhale completely, right, left ,right, breath, left, right, left, breath, etc. As you are swimming between breaths you should be blowing air out of your nose so that when you come up for air your lungs and completely empty.

Yeah I swam competetively all through my childhood etc. so I tend to forget that there are some people who can barely doggy paddle. I wouldn't replace running with swimming but if you definately can't run then suggest replacing with swimming. It's definately much easier on the old knees since most people who run tend to thump the heel down first.

[RatchadaNinja]

Are you telling me you've never been at the the pads hard enough in 3 minutes time to be blowing out your rear end? That's an issue in your training right there you should rectify. Yes pads are for technique, power and speed training - but a cardio exercise they most definately are. Doing 10 rounds on the pads properly is equivelant of doing sprints for that length of time. I wouldn't necessarily call hard padwork HIIT but it's definately high intensity.

Next time you have shin splints and can't run - go for a swim instead. Nothing beats running, but swimming will work your core all the time you focus on breathing. And if you're doing swim sprints then you can work your cardio pretty well whilst your shin splints actually heal. I remember hearing from a physio that swimming is really good for things like this because the pressure of the water also helps to reduce minor swelling.There's no where to swim around here. I doubt there's a public swimming pool around for at least 250km. My routine is working out just fine, anyway.

I still can't figure why you're suggesting pad work when Muay Thai stresses running and skipping to extremes for it's cardio.

I can exhaust myself out in 30 seconds if I try, no problems with my pad work. I think the point is, if I can exhaust myself in 30 seconds, how can I blame my lungs for that? They never had a chance to start working...

I don't even know why I'm saying this. I think you're a bit of a no hoper. But for the sake of the OP - there's a difference in short bursts of high intensity and drawn out exercises that take a sustained effort. You're best training both, but I'd recommend longer exercises for developing the lungs - by having the lungs work hard for long periods of time, you're really forcing them to improve in their oxygen efficiency. On the other hand, high intensity bursts stress the lungs less, high intensity is more about teaching your blood and muscles to be more efficient with the oxygen they use, so they don't use all the oxygen up too quickly and you can keep that sprint going a little longer. But this will only improve your lungs very slowly. In the end, as usual, it is a combination of both things that will make the best fighter - like I said, do a long 20 minute run without stopping and at your best pace possible, this will make sure your lungs are working hard and learning to improve their efficiency in drawn out exercises, every now and then do a 75m sprint at full burst - this will make sure your muscles are using the oxygen in your blood at their maximized minimum, it will teach your muscles to use oxygen better and to not over heat - exhaustion sets in rapidly when the muscles become too hot, which is the "on your ass" that Betty is talking about, and it has nothing to do with your lungs, it is just muscle overheating.

If you only do rounds on the pads for cardio, you're going to struggle when you come to long and sustained exercises because your lungs will be underdeveloped. You may be very good at powerful and explosive bursts, but this is all in muscle efficiency and does not stem directly from the lung intake.

Contrary to what Master Betty is saying, the effective style of Muay Thai tells people to do large amounts of sustained exercises for cardio, such as 10km runs daily followed by 20 minutes of skipping rope. The pads and bag work is for reasons of power and conditioning, technique.

[RatchadaNinja]

That's not a problem that's replicating a fight with rounds! It's an advantage.
Do pads hard enough and you will be basically replicating your fight cardio needs almost exactly.I don't really agree. I don't think many fighters do, either. The fight is long enough to keep you breathing the whole time and stress the importance of lung development. You need the high intensity work too, because you'll be doing powerful bursts in the fight and you need to teach your muscles to use the oxygen in your blood efficiently, but the fight is not so short as to rule out the importance of training the lungs to efficiently restock the blood with oxygen for the muscles to use in more powerful bursts. Lung efficiency is trained through drawn out exercises, not pad work.

If you train your lungs properly through good cardio work such as what I've sugested, you'll notice a rise in the frequency of your power bursts, given you'll be pumping more oxygen into your blood - you'll recover from the exhaustion of one power burst much better if you've trained your lungs, and this is how Thai fighters have learned to throw one extreme combo after another for the duration of the entire fight. It is a dual act of the lungs and muscles that were trained seperately, but are brought to function together in the ring with devestating effect.,

[Master Betty]

There's no where to swim around here. I doubt there's a public swimming pool around for at least 250km. My routine is working out just fine, anyway.

I still can't figure why you're suggesting pad work when Muay Thai stresses running and skipping to extremes for it's cardio.

I can exhaust myself out in 30 seconds if I try, no problems with my pad work. I think the point is, if I can exhaust myself in 30 seconds, how can I blame my lungs for that? They never had a chance to start working...

I don't even know why I'm saying this. I think you're a bit of a no hoper. But for the sake of the OP - there's a difference in short bursts of high intensity and drawn out exercises that take a sustained effort. You're best training both, but I'd recommend longer exercises for developing the lungs - by having the lungs work hard for long periods of time, you're really forcing them to improve in their oxygen efficiency. On the other hand, high intensity bursts stress the lungs less, high intensity is more about teaching your blood and muscles to be more efficient with the oxygen they use, so they don't use all the oxygen up too quickly and you can keep that sprint going a little longer. But this will only improve your lungs very slowly. In the end, as usual, it is a combination of both things that will make the best fighter - like I said, do a long 20 minute run without stopping and at your best pace possible, this will make sure your lungs are working hard and learning to improve their efficiency in drawn out exercises, every now and then do a 75m sprint at full burst - this will make sure your muscles are using the oxygen in your blood at their maximized minimum, it will teach your muscles to use oxygen better and to not over heat - exhaustion sets in rapidly when the muscles become too hot, which is the "on your ass" that Betty is talking about, and it has nothing to do with your lungs, it is just muscle overheating.

If you only do rounds on the pads for cardio, you're going to struggle when you come to long and sustained exercises because your lungs will be underdeveloped. You may be very good at powerful and explosive bursts, but this is all in muscle efficiency and does not stem directly from the lung intake.

Contrary to what Master Betty is saying, the effective style of Muay Thai tells people to do large amounts of sustained exercises for cardio, such as 10km runs daily followed by 20 minutes of skipping rope. The pads and bag work is for reasons of power and conditioning, technique.

Man this is probably exactly why you gassed! You have absoutely no idea what different kinds of stamina you need do you? I said right off the bat that you should do both - but the cardio from padwork is THE most closesly resembling what your body will go through in the fight. Long slow runs work a completely DIFFERENT kind of stamina. Hell, you say you live and fight in thailand - where the HELL did somebody tell you that crap!? That long slow runs and skipping are all the cardio you need!?

I know many thais and many of the best british fighters - ironically, fitness isn't something they have a problem with. All of them will tell you if you aren't using padwork as a large part of your cardio then youre doomed to failure.

[icefield]

Man this is probably exactly why you gassed! You have absoutely no idea what different kinds of stamina you need do you? I said right off the bat that you should do both - but the cardio from padwork is THE most closesly resembling what your body will go through in the fight. Long slow runs work a completely DIFFERENT kind of stamina. Hell, you say you live and fight in thailand - where the HELL did somebody tell you that crap!? That long slow runs and skipping are all the cardio you need!?

I know many thais and many of the best british fighters - ironically, fitness isn't something they have a problem with. All of them will tell you if you aren't using padwork as a large part of your cardio then youre doomed to failure.

why is it so hard for people to understand the above point, developing the aerobic base (the capacity of the aerobic system) is of vital importance, but so is developiong the power of the aerobic system and this is probably done best through specific exercises (which also help with specific muscular endurance)for fighting this means pad and bag work, sparring etc (if people dont think 3 minute rounds on the pads or bags are cardio specific stick a heart rate monitor on and see what your average HR is)

in thailand they probably emphasis road work and skipping for cardio because daily pad and bag work is a given, just as in the US in wrestling they emphasis stair running, bike work etc for cardio because sports specific cardio (through daily wrestling)is also a given

[icefield]

RatchadaNinja 26-Jan-2011 03:44 AM

Pads and bag work arn't going to help with cardio. People might think it does, but unless they themselves have struggled with cardio and had to objectively fix the problem, they're just talking BS.

I lost my first pro fight due to TKO in the third round, just threw in the towel because I was out of breath. I'm a superheavyweight.

My problem was I did no cardio at all - only bag and pad work and I thought that was enough. The reason I was skipping on cardio was because I get bad shin splints, so running and skipping were always out of the question. If you do not suffer from shin splints, I recommend running straight away - the best kind of running is about a 20 minute run at the best pace you can manage and without stopping, every now and then break into a full sprint for 75m or so so that you add some high intensity to it.

But since I can't run, I had to design a workout to improve my cardio for fighting and what I came up with I think is better than running anyway. The exercise is anaerobic - meaning it teaches you to use power at the same time as cardio, which is actually more practical for fighting than basic running. You need a clock and time yourself - the exercise should be done in 20 minutes and WITHOUT STOPPING AT ALL (you can stop for 10 seconds once or twice to sip some water if you need to, but that's it). Basically, you just do something like this:

Jogging on the spot, 30 seconds
Star jumps, 30 seconds,
20 push ups
20 squats
15 burpees
Jogging on the spot whilst punching to the front, 30 seconds
High knees, 30 seconds (high knees is where you jog on the spot, but with each step you hoist you knee up to above waist height - this is hard work)
Star jumps, 30 seconds
Jump knee bag 30 times (Muay Thai)
High knees, 30 seconds
15 burpees
Jogging on the spot, 30 seconds
(and the key to all this is speed speed speed - do these exercises quick and don't mess around)
(Keep repeating these exercises until the clock ticks to 20 minutes)

Whatever, you get the idea. Add your own exercises and stuff - I do more than this, but this gives you an idea. If you do something that is too high intensity, like burpees, and you get screwed, just cool down by jogging on the spot, but just don't stop. Keeping doing exercises one after the other for 20 minutes. The more high intensity exercises you throw in there the better - try not to spend too much time jogging on the spot.


The reason cardio exercises are more vital for breath than bag and pad work is bag and pad work is defined by your current fitness level and does not seek to push you enough. There is also too many intervals in the breathing, too much stopping and messing around. Progress will be slow at best. Contrary to what Master Betty tells you - no Thai gym is going to tell you to do bag and pad work to increase your cardio - they spend 1 - 2 hours a day running and skipping for their cardio, and bag and pad work is more for technique, power and conditioning, NOT CARDIO.

I've been doing this high intensity anaerobics for a couple months now at about 5 times a week and I've noticed an increase in my ability to sustain power and speed when I do go to striking the bag and I've no doubt it's from this anaerobics alone. I'm fighting in a week or two, have to call promoter, it will be a test of how well this has worked I think. I'll post fight details on this forum after it so if you see it you can see if I say I gas out or not this time, but I know I won't and I've fixed my own cardio problem already.
My lord Do you even know what anaerobic means? It means without oxygen.

There are two anaerobic energy systems, alactic which can provide power for up to 10 seconds and lactic which can provide power up to 90 seconds or so…… so are you really saying you have found a way to exercises for 20 minutes straight without using oxygen as your main energy system…….if so explain how you have managed to do what science tells us is basically impossible

[Master Betty]

why is it so hard for people to understand the above point, developing the aerobic base (the capacity of the aerobic system) is of vital importance, but so is developiong the power of the aerobic system and this is probably done best through specific exercises (which also help with specific muscular endurance)for fighting this means pad and bag work, sparring etc (if people dont think 3 minute rounds on the pads or bags are cardio specific stick a heart rate monitor on and see what your average HR is)

in thailand they probably emphasis road work and skipping for cardio because daily pad and bag work is a given, just as in the US in wrestling they emphasis stair running, bike work etc for cardio because sports specific cardio (through daily wrestling)is also a given

They don't even emphasise running and skipping. The usual 10km type run they do before training is barely even a jog - the purpose of both this and the skipping is mainly to burn off excess calories - not work their stamina. When they want to run to build stamina they do sprints. And the whole time, as you say, they do heavy bag and heavy padwork. You hit the nail right on the head.

I'm beginning to see why this guy said he gassed in his fight.