About All These Styles

[Sphyerion]

Quoted from The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi. Translation by William Scott Wilson in the Earth Chapter:

These days, the men making their way through the world calling themselves martial artists are generally only teachers of sword techniques ... When you look at the world, the various arts have been tailored to be items for sale. Likewise, a person thinks of himself as something to be sold and even the implements of these Ways are proffered as merchandise. This mentality divides the flower and fruit in two, and makes much less of the fruit than the flower.

Do you agree with this quote? Explain please.

Also, I often see members of this forum continually telling new practitioners of the martial arts to find a teacher of some sort. Why is this? In my opinion, to truly master an art, one must start from the beginning and bring himself through the process of discovery. This way, he understands the art with more depth because he thought it through on his own. I am entirely self taught... anyways, I just hope that people will stop discouraging new practitioners from teaching themselves.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

I am entirely self taught... anyways, I just hope that people will stop discouraging new practitioners from teaching themselves.

Have you actually used your self taught method in actual combat?

[Sphyerion]

I have only used it once, mainly due to the fact that I can't find many people to practice with. In any case, it was against my friend who uses the staff. He uses a chinese staff style and studies from a teacher. We are quite evenly matched.

NOTE: I use wooden swords... so it's safe. Teaching yourself with real swords is plain dangerous...

[El Tejon]

I've always admired the self-taught. It is the rare individual who can do so.

At the same time, I have run into many self-taught "partial artists" who were very zealous, but less than impressive as to technique.

One CAN teach himself. I do not believe this is best for any and all. If I am going into the hospital for surgery, I want my surgeon to have studied medicine at school, not "on his own.":)

[LilBunnyRabbit]

So, you've used it once, and that was practicing with a friend, and you count yourself as being self-taught?

Come back and say that again once you've been in an actual fight, and you might start to understand why self-taught is so unpopular.

[Sphyerion]

I hope you're not suggesting I go out and kill someone for practice. Where I'm from, real combat doesn't come too often. We don't typically carry our swords around in day to day life. A practice sparr is about as close to real combat as it gets. The real point of this thread is the quote though, and yet nobody is answering that question.

[totality]

Originally posted by Sphyerion
In my opinion, to truly master an art, one must start from the beginning and bring himself through the process of discovery. This way, he understands the art with more depth because he thought it through on his own.

no, this way he has to re-learn what is easily attainable with a teacher. his potential is limited, and mastery is unlikely.

[Sphyerion]

no, this way he has to re-learn what is easily attainable with a teacher.

As they say, you can't teach an experience. And it is the experience of thought process that develops a style that is truly valuable. Once again, just my opinion. But does ANYONE read that quote at the top?

This thread is about the way many styles of martial arts are more for sale etc.

[El Tejon]

I have absolutely no problems compensating a teacher for his time. The market will determine the price. There is nothing immoral in this.

I cannot learn in "three easy lessons" or by flipping through a book (there's book they used to sell in HK that did this with Bruce Lee:D) so I pay an instructor to lead me.

Musashi is commenting upon the lack of soul of some instructors and teaching the School of the Sword over the School of No Sword. So be it. There will always be "cowboys" who wish to pretend that they are BillyBob Badasses.

We call them "gunshop commandos" in some of the weapon schools I have been to. They want "to fight" rather than learn that it is about avoidance of a fight. They are fools and some will take advantage of them.

The McDojos can have them. I do not bother them and they do not bother me.:D

[Chase]

I hope you're not suggesting I go out and kill someone for practice. Where I'm from, real combat doesn't come too often. We don't typically carry our swords around in day to day life. A practice sparr is about as close to real combat as it gets. The real point of this thread is the quote though, and yet nobody is answering that question.

Hi, I read Musashi, & from what he has written, I agree that some martial arts masters are a bit "secular" in their understanding of their art. As for the sword, anything can be used to replace the sword, a stick, a knife, a fork, etc. If nothing is available, your hand, but this goes deeper; the use of a weapon is sinonimous with your philosophy as it applies to many other facets of life, & the degree of adaptation applied to them. ;)

Ingat ka [Take Care],

[Hyaku]

Quoted from The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi. Translation by William Scott Wilson in the Earth Chapter:Do you agree with this quote? Explain please.

Also, I often see members of this forum continually telling new practitioners of the martial arts to find a teacher of some sort. Why is this? In my opinion, to truly master an art, one must start from the beginning and bring himself through the process of discovery. This way, he understands the art with more depth because he thought it through on his own. I am entirely self taught... anyways, I just hope that people will stop discouraging new practitioners from teaching themselves.

Commercializing MA is nothing new as we can see by his writings in 1643. I think we can look at it as his warning of not being "too commercial" such as saying things like Our teachings are a gift from the Gods". Actually its a bit of a contradiction as Musashi himself did receive a stipend for teaching his philosophy. Then again he was not out to make a fortune.

He researched and practiced day and night until he was around fifty to reach a reasonable conclusion. But not on his own!

Nowadays to hope to follow his philosophy is realistic. To think that one can actually emulate his level would suggest one is on some sort of medication.

Musashi's principle was unreservedly dealing with a threat and "killing people" This is what makes his principles somewhat different to say Yagyu.

Like it or not the way of the warrior has gone and one of the only reasons MA has survived is because it was commercialized and gave it a future. The only other methods are in sportlike education such as Kendo and Judo.

Two important points to consider are: It is unique in the respect that a manual of a Ryu has actually preceded its practice in other countrys. Because of this it is very easy to sit in front of a computer and philosophize and posturize without even having gone to a dojo or even know what a Musashi bokuto feels like let alone know how to hold one. Yes we can use other weapons but we dont "use" other weapons in the dojo.

Secondly I belong to a small group of in Japan that would wish to relate the Ryu and Musashi's teachings as handed down by him to the rest of the world. If indeed the Ryu was as big as the followers that read the book the world would be better for it. For this we need "money". Your money and "Our money". Sadly there is not much any of us we can do without it. Musashi's book was handed down to his students but its not free now is it?

[Chase]

Commercializing MA is nothing new as we can see by his writings in 1643. I think we can look at it as his warning of not being "too commercial" such as saying things like Our teachings are a gift from the Gods". Actually its a bit of a contradiction as Musashi himself did receive a stipend for teaching his philosophy. Then again he was not out to make a fortune.

Hi Hyaku, From reading the Book of Five Rings, Musashi helped me to understand how to make certain techniques work for me in the chair, with weapons & without.

He researched and practiced day and night until he was around fifty to reach a reasonable conclusion. But not on his own!

Nowadays to hope to follow his philosophy is realistic. To think that one can actually emulate his level would suggest one is on some sort of medication.

Musashi's principle was unreservedly dealing with a threat and "killing people" This is what makes his principles somewhat different to say Yagyu.

Like it or not the way of the warrior has gone and one of the only reasons MA has survived is because it was commercialized and gave it a future. The only other methods are in sportlike education such as Kendo and Judo.

Two important points to consider are: It is unique in the respect that a manual of a Ryu has actually preceded its practice in other countrys. Because of this it is very easy to sit in front of a computer and philosophize and posturize without even having gone to a dojo or even know what a Musashi bokuto feels like let alone know how to hold one. Yes we can use other weapons but we dont "use" other weapons in the dojo.

Secondly I belong to a small group of in Japan that would wish to relate the Ryu and Musashi's teachings as handed down by him to the rest of the world. If indeed the Ryu was as big as the followers that read the book the world would be better for it. For this we need "money". Your money and "Our money". Sadly there is not much any of us we can do without it. Musashi's book was handed down to his students but its not free now is it? The comercialization of the arts was always an impediment to my degree of learning, but once I realized everybody is a perpetual student/master it became a lot clearer. :D

[Hyaku]

The comercialization of the arts was always an impediment to my degree of learning, but once I realized everybody is a perpetual student/master it became a lot clearer. :D

Never impedes my degree of learning. Its mostly the cost of actually getting to practices for me. I used to get on boats and planes. Now I still find myself traveling hundreds of miles. But as you say its a student/master situation. My teacher travels even further.

One thing to bear in mind also is I can also miss a lesson. He cant. The thing is to get some good tuition, then go back your own dojo and work on it. That's where individual training pays off. Then again you have to reach a proficient level to be able to do that. Creative visualization is not so easy.

[Chase]

Never impedes my degree of learning. Its mostly the cost of actually getting to practices for me. I used to get on boats and planes. Now I still find myself traveling hundreds of miles. But as you say its a student/master situation. My teacher travels even further.

One thing to bear in mind also is I can also miss a lesson. He cant. The thing is to get some good tuition, then go back your own dojo and work on it. That's where individual training pays off. Then again you have to reach a proficient level to be able to do that. Creative visualization is not so easy.

Hi Hyaku, Man, you're telling me! I don't do a lot of travelling to my masters because I spend a lot of time trying to adapt my techniques to my chair as most of my teachers never have used it, exept my Tai Chi teacher who needed to because he was working with me on adapting the movements of the form, the empty hand as well as the sword. :D
Ingat ka,