Striking vs Grappling

[Andy Murray]

I am interested to know everyones opinions on what constitutes safe & effective Self Defence.

Grappling and restraint techniques as used by say the police are good, but how easy are they to apply in real life?

Would you happily grapple with someone when you were being attacked by more than one person.

Do some arts in fact teach people a load of old bilge.

Would you try and kick someone in the head?

Has your training prepared you to strike the eyes or the throat reflexively when appropriate.

[waya]

Personally I would keep myself OFF the ground because that is the worst place to end up on the street. They may have friend that would gladly come kick you in the face while you try to apply an arm bar. I wouldn't try a head kick as a normal technique, although if it's open I won't say no to it :-) I prefer to strike to the body, specifically the very sensitive areas, to end the situation as quickly and decisively as possible.

Rob

[Chazz]

I feel the same a rob. A good saying i use is "Going to the head in class is great, but nothing works better on the street than a low side kick to the knees." The only place to the head that i would go to would be the ear, (palm to ear, destroy ther ear drum) the eyes, (split spear hand or thumb) or the nose (palm heal or hammer fist). Other areas good to go to that i would strike, the throat (knife hand) kidney, (straight up-set punch) or knees

Its a street fight, anything goes!

-Chazz

[waya]

lol My point exactly.... if ya put it too close to my face I will bite it off... I'll use any technique I can to win but I'll use them twice as hard to stay off my back

[Chazz]

In a fight ide use the amount of force to hurt maybe injure. but when more than one steps in. Thats when the ide use the points of the body i know to end a fight as it started.

[Pablo]

"...Grappling and restraint techniques as used by say the police are good, but how easy are they to apply in real life? ..."

The most effective police defensive tactics should take into account the limited training and practice time available, and rely on techniques that ARE easy to apply in realistic situations.
On the other hand, police defensive tactics have a different goal and different restrictions than those that govern personal self defense.

Some considerations include the fact that police are supposed to be equipped to transition from a restraint technique to a transport mode, such as handcuffs or hobbles. If a subject changes from the level of force that calls for a restraint to one that calls for deadly force (i.e. they pull out a weapon while being restrained), the police officer is trained to escalate along the use of force continuum to OC, baton or externally holstered firearm. Police also have access to communications that can summon various forms of assistance.

How many non-law enforcement personnel, when in self defense situations, will have access to radio, handcuffs, baton, etc.?
:D

pablo

[Andy Murray]

Good answer Pablo.

In the Uk we are supposed to use minimum force necessary for any given situation.

So in the striking arts, not only do we have to judge which techniques are going to be effective. We have to judge if we can live with the repercussions of that technique....blinding, deafening, crippling or even killing.

What may have seemed reasonable at the time, with adrenalin pumping, may be another thing the next day.

Many of you will think this is an obvious statement, but what I am interested in is.....

Do you come by this knowledge by your own personal studies, or is it part of the style/art that you practice?

[waya]

Most of mine is trial by error lol. I have a tendency to live in the worst part of town because it's low cost so I can use more income etc towards my training. Now I have relatively few problems but that wasn't always so. Since becoming involved in hapkido though the training is much more centered around what really works.

We are regulated as to how much force we can use here also, but that's the last thought on my mind when someone confronts me. Often I will make the first move when a hostile situation begins and I see no other way out (yes, I do try to avoid blows) because I would rather go to court and pay a fine than go to the hospital and be cleared of charges but be hurt or dead.

Just my own philosophy though, by no means the right way.

Rob

[Chazz]

We are tought to never use more force than what we think is needed. (easier said than done most of the time) I HATE, and i mean HATE fighting. Im the last one to ever get into a fight. But when i do have to get into one, i do what i can to end the fight as soon as possible with as less damage to me or the other person. But i always say that you should always try not to fight, find other ways to deal with anger.

-Chazz

[Melanie]

I do self defence at the moment and we work off the 10 most common types of acts of violence as a starting point. Chazz has pretty much covered the areas we do:

"The only place to the head that i would go to would be the ear, (palm to ear, destroy ther ear drum) the eyes, (split spear hand or thumb) or the nose (palm heal or hammer fist). Other areas good to go to that i would strike, the throat (knife hand) kidney, (straight up-set punch) or knees."

I don't know if the male perspective is tainted slightly by the fact that fighting can mean so many things to men, from serious things like you or your partner being threatened to a bad football game, someone spilt your pint, etc. However, if I were attacked, I would only have one reason on my mind and defend myself accordingly. Lets face it, the chances of me defend myself properly at this time is slim! I am not highly trained or physically strong, I would bite, claw, knee, scratch, poke eyes, whatever it took for me to get away...I may still end up being raped and killed but I would have a great deal of evidence left on me to get the perpertrator.

However, I might just freeze. I hope not....

Melanie

[Andy Murray]

One of the best ways to avoid Freezing, is to train those reflexes Melanie, preferably in as 'real' a situation as you can. Don't know if it's just me, but I find a lot of women can be more agressive than men, I know my wife is!

[waya]

Melanie,
Also suggest to your instructor (or do this on your own) training your defense moves from the natural stance, standing as you would on the street. you won't have the time to take a proper stance when something happens and it will also give away the fact that you are trained which will help your attacker and hurt you in court lol.

Rob

[Melanie]

Thats funny Andy...I've heard that before. That women can be considered more agressive than men. Sheesh! Who'd of thought!

We already do our SD in normal position: If you want to check out my Sensei site, please do:

www.ussu.net/shotokan

Melanie

[Melanie]

Ok - back on track then...

I watch before my self defence class every week Wing Chun which uses sensation of movement (sticky hands) a more 'mindful' way of grappling. However, I am not sure that I would like to be as close as that when fighting with some one. I would worry that I may not be able to reach all the vulnerable points that could bring my opponent down. I think (probably because so far my training has kept me at a distance) that I would prefer striking. My self defence has helped me with closer up manouvers but not quite grappling as yet.

Melanie

[Chazz]

I know i have talked a lot about striking but the is always the other. I know that a lot of school dont teach much on the ground, and cause of that some of their students wouldnt know what to do if they were down there. I think its just as important to know how to get out of holds and traps while on the ground. It is completely different than being on your feet. (good example: play fighting with a brother/sister/parent is always hard to get away once the get you down)

just my thoughts
-Chazz

[waya]

I agree, it's important to learn what to do once you get to the ground. Inevitably alot of fights will go there. Myself I train what I need to know to get off my back and return to my feet but I do work with ground techniques so I am not totally lost lol.

Rob

[Chazz]

My personal ideas are if you have to fight, make it quick, do the least damage to you, others or property, stay on your feet, if on the ground do what you can to get up. If all possible, walk away

Chazz

[Andy Murray]

I was watching the first three UFC tapes a while back, where Hoyce Gracie, basically took out everyone with grappling techniques from Gracie Ju Jitsu. He made a lot of guys look silly, even breaking one guys arm.

I was a bit annoyed by the event, as it said there are no rules, yet there was no biting or eye gouging allowed. But hey I suppose it's a little hard to break someones arm if you can't see them, or they have their teeth sunk into your genitals!

Any thoughts?

[waya]

lol that's why I don't like being on my back... Grappling in the ring is good.... on the street it could be a fatal mistake.

[Andy Murray]

I somehow missed Melanies last post, and just wanted to clarify a point. The Wing Chun system is close contact, but Sticking hands is only a training exercise, not grappling. The idea of sticking hands is to increase sensitivity to physical contact from different angles, eg.

Someone puts their hand on your shoulder from behind. If you take the time to try and turn your head to seee them, it may be too late. If, by feeling the pressure, you can tell that it is say their right hand, you may be able to 'feel' where they are standing, and initiate your defenses more immediately.

Just as no two punches are mechanically the same, no two blocks can be the same. Chi Sau trains you to deflect strikes rather than block the energy, and the Wing Chun system always throws a counter back as or just after you have deflected.

The system does use grabs though, so I understand where you get the grappling thing from Mel.

[Melanie]

Thanks Andy. I am afraid Wing Chun is something that I watch only, so couldn't comment too well on it, just my observation only. Sorry about barking up the wrong tree! At least at sounds like I was in the same park though :D

Melanie

[Freeform]

In my opinion its not a case of striking v grappling but striking AND grappling. I've had the misfortune of growing up in a bad part of town and know how quickly a fight can degenerate into two guys rolling about on the ground with their mates trying to kick the other guys head in. In 'real life' (god I hate that phrase, martial arts are supose to train you for that) you want to hit somebody once and that be the end of it, but you've got to train striking and grappling, you never know if the other guys got a head like a rhino and all your trusty right hook does is annoy him into taking you with a rugby tackle. In a self defence situation DO NOT willingly enter grappling range, its very hard to get out of if you get into trouble.

But another point. I know there are a lot of fellow door staff out there. When it kicks off in the pub/club we're only supposed to use 'minimum restraining force' if somebodies trying to glass another punter, how many of you, or your friends, have gotten into trouble (from the police) for striking out on reflex?

Thanx 4 ur time.

[waya]

I worked in personal protection for a few years and did get in trouble a couple times. Alot of what I did were concerts and casino owned hotels. We always had someone too drunk somewhere that would try to swing as I escorted or restrained them and I had a problem with striking immediately.

[Cooler]

I have worked on the doors for many years and no matter how much training you put in nothing can prepare you for the real thing the first time.

There is no rules, no fines, violence is not a pretty thing.

Don't get me wrong I think training in the arts is a necessary thing in this day and age, violence is all around us. But do not be lulled into a false sense of security and think well I know how to punch, kick and block so I can handle myself.

The first time I hit someone nothing happened he just looked at me. Which surprised the hell out of me as my instructor told me if I caught someone with that punch they would go down. So anyway when I got out of hospital I had to rethink my outlook on violence in the streets.

Training does you the world of good but keep it real.

Cooler.

[waya]

Couldn't have put it better Cooler... Nothing will ever prepare anyone for a real encounter other than the encounter itself.

[Freeform]

Yeah, very true. But I think that more schools should at least make mention of things such as adrenaline dumps and fight or flight responce. At least try to make people aware of what happens (without trying to scare them ;))

[Andy Murray]

If I was clever enough to work the quote insertion tool in the 'post reply' toolbox, I could show that you have all answered different points I raised in the original post. So thanks

[Andrew Green]

Why even ask the question, it seems kind of silly.

Combine them, strike to set up the lock, grab him and hit him, hit him a few times then toss him down hard, etc.

Striking and grappling are not seperate approaches. It's like asking a tennis player whether they use backhand or forehand strikes.

Use both, they work together.

Another thing is grappling is not neccessarily groundfighting.

You can study grappling, win with only grappling and not take it to the ground ever.

By the way, I once was told by a BJJ player that the last place they ever want to be is on their back, consequently they spend a lot of time training on their back so that they at least have some chance should they ever find themselves there.

Nobody is ever going to intentianally be on there back in a real fight, but should it ever occur it would seem like you would want to know how to do something other then get your head smashed into the pavement.

I also have heard that Ueshiba Morihei had stated that aikido was 99% (or 95%, whatever) atemi, only later on did he start doing things without it, since none of us are any where near his level when he started doing this, maybe we should listen to what he said before.

Old style Karate has grappling, old style jujitsu has striking, chin na is integratted into kung fu.

Grappling and striking go together, they do not oppose each other.

[hongkongfuey]

I like your attitude to fighting Melanie. I once asked an instructor about techniques he would not use in a clean fight, and he replied that there was no such thing. Try not to fight, but if you have to then use every method at your disposal.

On Andy's original question, my wife is in the police and I have been on the other end of some of the techniques they practice. I think the grappling techniques are very effective. Don't mess with someone with an extendable baton (ooh, madam) and dont make fun of a policewoman when she is off duty (I've got the broken nose to prove it!)

Cooler - no comments please. I know you are scared of her as well.

No, I would not grapple with someone when there was more than one of them. I'd use my secret technique - the 400m sprint.

[waya]

I think myself that I will run faster from one man than I will from three. I find it easier to deal with two or three attackers than one because 90% of them have no plan of attack and are fairly easily tangled up and beaten.

But you are right, the sprint is one very effective self defense technique lol.

Rob

[Andy Murray]

Anyone got any sprint training tips then? Chicken Thread perhaps?

[Ozebob]

Hi All,

I think it is better to learn both striking and grappling at the same time. Kata such as Sanchin, Naihanchi and Seisan contain both and they were the first choice for learners for many years before the Taikyokyu, Pinan and Gekisai series were created.

Ozebob

[Andy Murray]

For the non Japanese stylists, would you mind giving a few examples of the types of strikes or grapples contained within these Kata please Oze

[Ozebob]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
For the non Japanese stylists, would you mind giving a few examples of the types of strikes or grapples contained within these Kata please Oze

Hi Andy,

Sanchin- joint locks such as reverse wrist press, arm wrap, leg traps/lock, punch, spearhand strike, testicle crush, implied knee strike/kick, palm heel strike, etc.

Naihanchi- has most of the above as well as elbow strike, back fist strike, arm bar

Seisan- introduces kicks, front and side (low) as well as most of the above.

All kata can be interpreted with throws, it depends on the skill. knowledge and experience of the practitioner.

Regards,
Bob

[Andy Murray]

Thanks Bob,

Testicles are a small Australian grape, so please don't edit this post Melanie.

[Melanie]

Oh...er...ok :confused:

[Andy Murray]

Ozebob, I saw Sanchin demonstrated, and was struck by similarities to certain forms within Wing Chun. The particular style performed Sanchin with paced breathing and dynamic tension. Sanchin seemed a little out of place in the syllabus of this style ( Shoto Kai ), so I was wondering if it came into Karate 'later' than the rest of the Kata?

[Ozebob]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Ozebob, I saw Sanchin demonstrated, and was struck by similarities to certain forms within Wing Chun. The particular style performed Sanchin with paced breathing and dynamic tension. Sanchin seemed a little out of place in the syllabus of this style ( Shoto Kai ), so I was wondering if it came into Karate 'later' than the rest of the Kata?

Hi Andy,

Gichin Funakoshi mentions Sanchin Kata in one of his publications.
Sanchin was practised by the Shorin Ryu (Shuri Te) groups and Naihanchi was taught by Miyagi (Goju Ryu founder).

Various kata pop in and out of any group's syllabus at any point in time. Kanazawa's Shotokan group use Seienchin, hyakuhachiho (Suparenpai) and Nihachiho (Nipaipo). Shotokai teach Sanchin and Tensho as do I.

Later or sooner depends on the sub-groups within the style I guess.. soory, not a black and white answer!

Regards,
Bob

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Ozebob


Hi Andy,

Gichin Funakoshi mentions Sanchin Kata in one of his publications.
Sanchin was practised by the Shorin Ryu (Shuri Te) groups and Naihanchi was taught by Miyagi (Goju Ryu founder).

Regards,
Bob

What!?!

No, no, no...

Must have been a typo, Sanchin is Goju, Naihanchi is shorin. Miyagi did not teach Naihanchi, Miyagi taught Sanchin and created Tensho.

[Ozebob]

No typo, Miyagi taught Naihanchi at one stage but it was later dropped from the syllabus.

In Patrick McCarthy's translation of "An Outline of Karatedo" by Miyagi Chojun March 23rd 1934-

"It is through combining the kihon kata (sanchin, tensho and naifanchi) with both the kaishu-gata and kumite renshu that an even balance between body and mind is cultivated. Hence it is through these offensive and defensive traditions that we seek to find truth and establish a budo spirit." by Miyagi Chojun.

Regards,
bob

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Ozebob
No typo, Miyagi taught Naihanchi at one stage but it was later dropped from the syllabus.

In Patrick McCarthy's translation of "An Outline of Karatedo" by Miyagi Chojun March 23rd 1934-



I have that book to, I have no doubt he was aware of the kata, and aware that others taught it as a fundamental kata, but I have never seen any source say that he actually taught it. Afterall the article is not titled "An outline of Goju ryu karate do"

However I would be curious to know who he taught it too, who he learnt it from and what time period he was teaching it.

[Ozebob]

Hi Andrew,

In my discussions with Joe Swift, Mario McKenna and others, this has come up and there is some details somewhere. I had a quick look but couldn't find the actual post that did have some references. I don't think he would have mentioned it in his essay if he wasn't teaching it at the time.

Bob

[Andy Murray]

Excuse my relative ignorance of the Kata you guys are discussing. I am finding, as a Chinese Stylist, ( 'Sick Man of Asia' and all that ) it is quite hard to follow the thread of the converation, as you use a lot of Japanese terminology.

In the interest of the eclectic community reading these forums, could you guys possibly explain how these issues relate to striking, grappling or whatever.

Sanchin, for example. Does this Kata teach you a method against a pre-described attack, or is it a vocabulary Kata, filled with a lot of techniques, subject to interpretation?

[Kosokun]

Originally posted by Andy Murray

In the interest of the eclectic community reading these forums, could you guys possibly explain how these issues relate to striking, grappling or whatever.


Excellent point.

[/B]
Sanchin, for example. Does this Kata teach you a method against a pre-described attack, or is it a vocabulary Kata, filled with a lot of techniques, subject to interpretation? [/B]

Not to be flippant, but the answer actually is "YES".

What a kata is or teaches, is a source of much debate in the karate forums, where we're all presumably using the same jargon.

Kata, often is like one of those ink block tests, where you see whatever you want to see.

With regard to Sanchin in particular:

Some people see it only as a fundamental kata, designed to teach only certain elements of muscle dynamics, punching trajectories, and other technical elements.

Some see it as containing grappling, counter grappling and even ground fighting strategies.

I suppose that the bottom line is that whatever you see in the kata, if you can make it work for you, then it's fine.

Rob

[Andy Murray]

I realise I am drifting away from my own subject matter, but.....

In teaching Sanchin, which is the better approach?

To teach, every nuance, detail, and potential application.

or

To teach the Kata, and leave the rest to the individual.

Does a lack of explanation, lead to an invention of application?

If so, is this a bad thing?

[hongkongfuey]

Andy,
I think lack of explanation is a bad thing. To me, the instructor should demonstrate the set and break out sections of it and demonstrate them in practice. Maybe he should let the student work certain parts out themselves if this is his style of teaching.

Surely if you leave it all to the student then there is the risk of the student imagining techniques in the form that have little practical use. Perhaps in 5 years this student then starts teaching these techniques to other students and the art is diluted.

[Freeform]

The way I was taught these kata was by learning the movements first, being told possible applications as we went, and once we'd learned the entire kata, we'd start to work on the bunkai (applications), and yes the Kata's are very open to interpretation, if I see/feel something in the kata, you may see/feel something completely differently. What I find interesting is watching two people from different schools/styles practicing the same kata, because whilst they're doing the same motions their emphasis is slightly different due to the way they see the katas.

But I digress, when being taught striking/grappling they have to be taught at the same time and not as separate 'entities', as this creates a kind of 'mental block' (should I be grappling now?)

Thanx

[Andy Murray]

HKF,

If you explain everything to the student......how do they learn to learn?

If the student get's an idea about an unexplained section of a form, then an experienced instructor should be on hand to discuss it with them. Though only if asked to do so.

If a Semi-experienced student then started to teach what they thought was valid to other people, then it would only be relevant if it actually worked, or had value.

The explanation that I was given went along the lines of........

In the beginning, the Chinese Arts had forms ( Kata's ). Chinese people, with their own cultural and philosophical ideals were happy to learn and teach them. As the MA hit the western world, the belt system came into being. The syllabus had to be broken into sections, hence One step, or Two step sparring As people in the west were expected to pay money in return for tuition, they wanted other people to be able to see how much money they had spent on learning the art, hence the belt system. A class system was introduced, which still exists. We have working, middle and upper class M Artists. Instead of just learning forms and practicing them for their own intrinsic benefit, the western world turns them into an industry.

I like to see footage of eighty year old people in China practicing Tai Chi under trees in China. No belts, no money, no Bullspit. Just the beauty of the arts practiced for the sake of tradition, with no concern for self!

Howzat for a Tangent?

[Ozebob]

Hi Andy,

That is a fable. Martial Arts have been taught for commercial gain well before becoming available in the West. Whether it be for money, food or sevices in kind.

Regards,
Bob McMahon

[Andy Murray]

Bob,

that particular post was directed at HKF, and was only the repetition of an explanation that I received myself. Therefor it does not represent my own opinion.

We could ask the question; When was commerce invented then?

'Sales is the oldest profession in the world'

A lot of people think 'something else' is the 'oldest profession'

In fact this is just a sub-section of sales!

Yes, the Arts were taught for cash before coming to the West! I'm trying to broaden philosophical standpoints here. It's easy to answer the obvious questions and ignore those that require intensive comprehension!

[Ozebob]

Gee Andy,

Just admit you were wrong and get on with it. Heavens above, don't make statements then disagree with yourself one post later..

Bob McMahon

[Andy Murray]

Sorry Bob,

I was merely suggesting that I thought you had misunderstood the theme of the post! I would focus your attention therefor on the last paragraph of the previous post!

I'm not really making statements, or expressing my own point of view. I'm simply varying the tempo of debate, so I guess I got you there Bob!

The above post no doubt appearing 'out of context' on a forum near you soon!

Cheers

Andy M

[Ozebob]

Hi Andy,

I misunderstand a lot of things Andy ;)

Regards,
bob

[Andy Murray]

Me too Bob!

Hey, if you can't disagree with yourself, then who can you disagree with? Speaking of which, wheres Kosokun got to............

Yours in complex perplexity, or was that perplexing complexity?

Andy M

[Freeform]

Talk about going off on a tangent, I'm sure I've read alot of this stuff on another thread ;)

[waya]

ok I got lost, are we discussing standardizing recognition systems or who charges what for how many classes and who did it first? lol

Rob

[Andy Murray]

It's a bit like GroundHog day. As usual I'm to blame. I think I'll start a new thread, where I can just rant at myself! LOL

Suggest we all read through the previous posts, and see if we can come up with some useful answers!

Angry Murray

[waya]

lol now is the time where ya wonder whether to strike or grapple lol j/k

[Kosokun]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Speaking of which, wheres Kosokun got to............

Yours in complex perplexity, or was that perplexing complexity?

Andy M

I've been off at a funeral and memorial service for a friend. Took up the better part of a week. I just poked my head in now, but I've got to be off to teach class, so I'll catch up later.

Rob

[Andy Murray]

Sorry to hear about your loss Kosokun!

We were just about getting to a conclusion on the whole 'Striking vs Grappling' thing.

The trad guys are saying both are important!

The freestyle guys are saying both are important!

The answer ssems to be that; Sometimes you should strike, sometimes you should grapple. Not only should you know how to do both, but also when!

anybody....

[Kosokun]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Sorry to hear about your loss Kosokun!

Thanks Andy, I appreciate that.




We were just about getting to a conclusion on the whole 'Striking vs Grappling' thing.

The trad guys are saying both are important!

The freestyle guys are saying both are important!

The answer ssems to be that; Sometimes you should strike, sometimes you should grapple. Not only should you know how to do both, but also when!

anybody....

Sound's reasonable.

Rob

[waya]

We were just about getting to a conclusion on the whole 'Striking vs Grappling' thing.

The trad guys are saying both are important!

The freestyle guys are saying both are important!

The answer ssems to be that; Sometimes you should strike, sometimes you should grapple. Not only should you know how to do both, but also when!

anybody....

Seems to be the best conclusion on the matter.

Rob

[Freeform]

Yeah, I agree too.

[Joseki]

Although some would say ground techinques are great well the are (one on one) and i would like to think that i could put my attacker in arm lock 4 (which i can) but it goes down to striking (for me and i do ju jitsu) for with out a strike (12345 strikes maybe) i could not lock any one up! i'm not saying locking isnt good for it is, its just that sometimes you need to hit them to get them loose for that important second and then apply a lock.
But saying all of this i would not go and tell a yellow belt to use a lock for they may not have the skill and even some black belts dont have the skill.
So thats my very long reply.

[Andy Murray]

Thanks for that Joseki, I get where you are coming from.

I wanted to ask a question which relates to both the striking and grappling arts.

We have all seen boxing matches, where by the final round both boxers are shattered, and their technique has all but gone!

The same can be true in any sport. It's not so much the energy you use, but the energy you conserve that makes the difference. BJJ players are a great example of this.

The question is; As you become more experienced , and conserve energy better, can this make up the difference in a contest with someone younger, fitter etc, or will the fitter person always win?

Andy

[Freeform]

Age and experience will win 90% of the time, I know this because I'm young and superfit (honestly... ok, I'll put the pint down) and still get tied in knots by Judoka who're south of 50 and only train twice a week.

Thanx

[waya]

Brains over beauty I think.... Most of the people I worry about ever having a confrontation with are 20+ years older than I am. The mind is still the most dangerous weapon, no matter what is said about how hard you train, if you can't think or have no experience you have already lost to the experienced fighter.

Rob

[Joseki]

I agree with waya
but in sparring you may (and will) meet the nataural the one person that learns 100 miles an hour than the 35 mile an hour student and in these cases the nataural fighter will beat the experience one (mostly by serprise)

[Thomas Vince]

Andy,
I agree that a situation of multiple opponents is not good for a grappler. Police are involved ina specific duty, apprehending the suspect with the least amount of force. That requires back up and help. As an example the Kenpo art is not concern with holding the perp for prosecition , it is concerned with eradicating the offender from his life. Extreme but his philosophy is the root between the Jujitsu and kenpo relationship in modern times.

[Darzeka]

I think it comes down to situation.

When I'm out clubbing I'm a pretty imposing figure and for some reason eye contact tnds to make most people stay away.

But if someone were to attack me I would try to stay at a distance, wait to check what state they are in - whether they are drunk or what, whether they have friends nearby, then make a decision from there.

If they try to hit me, block or evade the hit and put them on the ground with a version of any of the basic throws I have learned. Hopefully by this time the bouncers would have come over and stopped the fight.

If it was somewhere where I knew there was no help coming then I would either try to imobilse them either breaking something (knee, elbow, wrist), leaving them unable to breathe with a strike to throat or solar plexus and then leaving them there.
If there were multiple people then it would definately be strikes to groin, knees, and head, hopefully leaving that person on the floor with a follow up trip or throw.

I think the best way to decide would be to do whatever you first thought of doing and learn to cover big distances with your body to suprise them, being able to attack from two metres away is a great help.

My first instinct now is to wait for the other person to try to hit me but knowing you could stun them with a strike and then have them on the ground while they are reeling is a good thing to know. When some one is one the ground they are open to all manner of kicks to head, body and groin although I would probably only do that if they pulled a weapon.

On the subject of freezing up the best way to avoid this is to be aware of what is around you, learn to pay attention to your peripheries, if someone is walking by you move out of the way, this is excellent practice in nightclubs and pubs where there are many people moving around and it will save you some spilt drinks and prevent the fights when you accidentally bump someone and spill their drink

[ladyhawk]

There is absolutely no shame in walking away or running for that matter.

The circumstances of the situation and my mindset at the time of the encounter will determine how I will react.

I would attempt to talk my way out of the situation while casually getting into a good balanced stance and bring my open hands up in front of me in a non threatening manner.
If you suddenly drop into a fighting stance, you just committed yourself to the battle.

I'd much rather do my fighting on my feet but I'm quite capable of defending myself on the ground.
It's important to practice breakfalls and recovery before you need them.

I'm short so I would not attempt a head shot.

If you use sieze control and take down techniques you have to ask yourself, what are you going to do with them after you have them under control?

When teaching the average person self defense techniques use the K.I.S.S. Method. Keep It Simple Stupid!

[ladyhawk]

OK, let me rephrase my previous post to say that I wouldn't attempt a kick to the head because my short legs only covers so much distance and I don't want to chance over extending a touchy hamstring.

[Freeform]

Ladyhawk, you can change your own posts by using the edit button at the bottom of them.

Also, you should try to practice striking from the 'no-stance', a 'quick draw'. Reduces the reaction time of your opponent.

Thanx

[uglyelk]

Originally posted by ladyhawk


When teaching the average person self defense techniques use the K.I.S.S. Method. Keep It Simple Stupid!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OR to put a martial spin on things we could say
K.I.S.S. Keep It Savagely Simple! :D

Laird

[ladyhawk]

LOL! Excellent definition!

[Andy Murray]

Hauling this old thread from the distant past, I had a thought or two recently on this subject.

I spent a little time playing with some good grapplers, who were all over me with knowledge, yet whenever I implied that they had left an opening for a serious strike, they got a bit huffy. I was told off for taking the opportunity to stand up, and freeing weapons as well. They showed a lack of understanding of their own vulnerability.

On the reverse side of the coin, boxers, kickboxers, etc get real annoyed when you tie them up by closing distance and manipulating them (grappling). Without an understanding of the grappling range, you can soon find yourself sleeping like a baby.

There seem to be some holes in either camps arguement, as some grappling techniques are open to finishing strikes, and some grappling techniques are immune to strikers.

Why then do we not generally acknowledge both systems of practice?

Which (for the six month student) has more applicaton for street defense, Grappling or Striking?

:confused:

Andy

[Spike]

if we`re talking about for a short term student I think it`ll depend almost entirely on the student. Different build and such-like will play a vital part

[Andy Murray]

Oh go on on Spike.....be daring....... extend a limb :)

[STASH]

For a six month student? Definetly striking...its just easier to apply. You can still punch someone when he's grabbing on to you and you can still punch them when your both rolling around on the ground. I dont know, this is coming from someone who is more comfortable striking then grappling, just my opinion.

[TkdWarrior]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
I am interested to know everyones opinions on what constitutes safe & effective Self Defence.

Grappling and restraint techniques as used by say the police are good, but how easy are they to apply in real life?

grappling is good n it's easy to grapple than to apply wrists locks n all... but it would be stupidity to grapple a knife yieldin oppnt...


Would you happily grapple with someone when you were being attacked by more than one person.

yes n no for this answer...
if there's no other option then my body built allows me to grapple and my knowledge of standing n ground grappling(Indian wrestling) will help too, u hav techniques which works damn good even in multiple oppnt... but yup u hav to remember some rules about multiple fightin...
No i would go for powerfull strikes which can control..

Do some arts in fact teach people a load of old bilge.

didn't understood the question...wat's bilge??

Would you try and kick someone in the head?
Has your training prepared you to strike the eyes or the throat reflexively when appropriate.
kick in the head...if the oppnt is on ground why not... but standing oppnt No i would prefer demoblizing him first by attackin on knee...
training for stikeing in eyes..?
i never pulled out anyone eyes yet... so i m not sure...but when it's matter of life...i CAN kill...

for a six month student i would only prefer RUNNING option...i'll better prepare him for 6 months may be make him fastest runner in the world...
it's so tough even for those who r already studying MA from yrs...
even seriously if u wannt to hav a look how a guy should fight in multiple opnt...then u should check out this video...

http://www.evolutionary-systems.com...e_attackers.WMV

if u fighting doesn't happen like this(some basics) then most probably u r screwed
lastly i'll say it's a mind over matter ...
u want to survive?? u will...
-TkdWarrior-

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
I spent a little time playing with some good grapplers, who were all over me with knowledge, yet whenever I implied that they had left an opening for a serious strike, they got a bit huffy. I was told off for taking the opportunity to stand up, and freeing weapons as well. They showed a lack of understanding of their own vulnerability.


In fairness to the grapplers, they where likely in a better position to distribute finishing blows more often on the ground. But you are right, if all you train is grappling you won't see these openings...


On the reverse side of the coin, boxers, kickboxers, etc get real annoyed when you tie them up by closing distance and manipulating them (grappling). Without an understanding of the grappling range, you can soon find yourself sleeping like a baby.


Yep


There seem to be some holes in either camps arguement, as some grappling techniques are open to finishing strikes, and some grappling techniques are immune to strikers.

Why then do we not generally acknowledge both systems of practice?


Well here lies the flaw in doing one or the otherm or even crosstraining. You have to understand all ranges and all skills, and realise that its all one skill set, not 3 or 4 seperate games.

If you train in kickboxing and BJJ and wrestling more power to you. That is a good starting point, but as seperate arts they don't recognise the skills of the other two.

Training kickboxing in isolation is good for your kickboxing. But it is only doing a part of the whole. Kind of like only sparring with jabs, then only with hooks, then only with uppercuts and then overhands. It will develop those skills individually, but thats not going to teach you how to box. Integration is required.



Which (for the six month student) has more applicaton for street defense, Grappling or Striking?

:confused:

Andy

Ground, standupp or clinch, doesn't matter as much as how you train it. Lots of sparring and how to get into that range and stay there.

For example if you're going to do just strike, then you'd better do counters to tackles and clinches.

Probably want to work a little of each though.

maybe stuff like

guard sweeps
escaping mount
bridge and roll
conditioning
getting and holding a mount then pounding away
leg takedowns
couple clinch takedowns
conditioning
some punches/kicks/elbows/knees
sprawling
closing into a clinch
taking the back
conditioning
lots of sparring...
... oh and lots of conditioning


And custom design it based on the natural abilities of the student in question.

6 months isn't a lot of time, but it is certainely enough to make someone effective.

Now the tricky question, If we have a student for 6 years, should those 1st 6 months be the same as the 6 months of a student who is only going to be there for 6 months?

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Why then do we not generally acknowledge both systems of practice?

Which (for the six month student) has more applicaton for street defense, Grappling or Striking?



I can't answer the second question - I'm primarily a striker and secondarily a grappler. However I'm convinced that realistic self-defence must address both arenas and several ranges. (I'm not convinced of the relevance of long, long kicking range when the attacker is so far away I could just turn round and run away). Having started out in purely striking systems, it was something of an awakening for me to see how 'grapply' real violence is. The solution's not that hard though - just make sure you devote time to practising both sides of the coin. Oh yeh, and make sure that both the striking and grappling systems you study can be used in a consistent manner with each other. Oh yeh, and make sure that both the striking and grappling systems you study have some relevance for real combat as opposed to sport combat. To tie this in with another thread, its all in the kata if you look for it.

Mike

[morphus]

6th month student, which is more effective?

I think a little of each (just to have a little understanding if nothing else) but i think teaching defending/escaping close attacks such as lapel grabs, throat grabs, hair etc; training to react, this might stop you getting in striking or grappling situation in the first place.

Training to be aware can more effective than anything else! No?

[pgm316]

Having only 6 months to teach somebody would totally change what I do. Its just not enough time to teach martial arts blocking to an adequate level. I’d concentrate on teaching kickboxing style fighting. With the focus on attacking. I’d be more confident of the persons abilities if they learnt to throw some good combinations of punches and kicks. Knees and elbows at short range or when somebody grabs them. Then there wouldn’t be much time left for groundfighting. Maybe try and teach the basics of not ending up on your back. And then again striking on the ground instead of locks because of the faster learning curve.

It’s a good point that Andrew Green made, how effective is learning kickboxing and judo (for example) as opposed to a style which combined both styles such as kung fu. This is basically how I’ve trained, and I don’t think you become aware of the weaknesses of a system until you learn a style that doesn’t have the weaknesses.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

I spent a little time playing with some good grapplers, who were all over me with knowledge, yet whenever I implied that they had left an opening for a serious strike, they got a bit huffy. I was told off for taking the opportunity to stand up, and freeing weapons as well. They showed a lack of understanding of their own vulnerability.


Yep, very much so. Many grappler's don't seem to be able realise how powerful strikes can be.


On the reverse side of the coin, boxers, kickboxers, etc get real annoyed when you tie them up by closing distance and manipulating them (grappling). Without an understanding of the grappling range, you can soon find yourself sleeping like a baby.

I'll admit to being fairly guilty of this, although I tend to get kickboxers and similar equally annoyed at me (very close ranged striking techniques, almost grappling range at times). The limit of grappling is that a lot of it trains for restraint and holds rather than simply hit and run. Very suitable for a lot of things, not necessarily for when a drunkard swings a bottle at your head while his friends look on and laugh.


There seem to be some holes in either camps arguement, as some grappling techniques are open to finishing strikes, and some grappling techniques are immune to strikers.

There are no immunities, there's always a way to dodge, counter or slip out of a strike or grapple. If there was one technique that always worked against strikers/grapplers people would spend half of their training learning that technique, and the other half learning the other.


Why then do we not generally acknowledge both systems of practice?

They're suitable for different things. Different people are suited to different things. Its like comparing a short knife with a sword, they're just not the same style. Both effective, but not the same beyond basic principles. The person with the sword will think they're more dangerous because they've got better range, the knife-holder will claim that they are since they can move inside the sword's range and then they've got free targets.


Which (for the six month student) has more applicaton for street defense, Grappling or Striking?

Striking and basic stand-up grappling. When people say that most fights go to the ground they're talking about ones where neither person is trained, you've all seen them before with two people rolling on the ground. Best to learn to defend yourself against the most common attacks, and then some basic blocks and strikes.

[tuney30]

this is more of a question answer, butyou said the police are taught the most effective techniques in the limited time they have.

but how many thugs do you hear of who have kicked the crap outta some copper un armed? i thought the idea of police weapons was for their defense, in this case they would not need much martial training, would they?

i am not starting an arguement just trying to understand the conversation

[waya]

For a 6 month student I would say a fair combination of both... Same I would say for anyone. You can teach decent basics in both, at least enough to gain an understanding and be able to handle themselves against the "average" attacker in 6 months if there is enough seriousness in the training.

Police here are far from taught the most effective techniques.... Most of them will admit they are screwed if it goes to a fight.

Rob

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Andrew Green


6 months isn't a lot of time, but it is certainly enough to make someone effective.

Now the tricky question, If we have a student for 6 years, should those 1st 6 months be the same as the 6 months of a student who is only going to be there for 6 months? [/B]

Ideally I'd say yes Andrew. If you teach MA then you have a responsibility to instruct all to the same level.
Unless you've found some way of discovering who is going to leave after six months, how can you tell?
Surely it's down to what each individual wants?
Some are in it for the long haul, some just want a six month crash course in defence. How can we be professional by offering a different standard to each?

In either case, you've highlighted some important areas to cover;

"guard sweeps
escaping mount
bridge and roll
conditioning
getting and holding a mount then pounding away
leg takedowns
couple clinch takedowns
conditioning
some punches/kicks/elbows/knees
sprawling
closing into a clinch
taking the back
conditioning
lots of sparring...
... oh and lots of conditioning "

I'd perhaps add ;

Situational awareness
sucker punches
striking psychology
multiple attack scenarios

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Andy Murray


In either case, you've highlighted some important areas to cover;

"guard sweeps
escaping mount
bridge and roll
conditioning
getting and holding a mount then pounding away
leg takedowns
couple clinch takedowns
conditioning
some punches/kicks/elbows/knees
sprawling
closing into a clinch
taking the back
conditioning
lots of sparring...
... oh and lots of conditioning "

I'd perhaps add ;

Situational awareness
sucker punches
striking psychology
multiple attack scenarios

You've covered most techniques that need to be taught to a complete fighter, I don't think you could effectively teach these in 6 months. You'd probably end up with a fighter that knows lots of bits and pieces without enough practice to put any to effective use.

I’d concentrate on teaching a more basic system, maybe the basics of kickboxing style fighting. With the focus on attacking. I’d be more confident of the persons abilities if they learnt to throw some good combinations of punches and kicks. Knees and elbows at short range or when somebody grabs them. Then there wouldn’t be much time left for groundfighting. Maybe try and teach the basics of not ending up on your back. And then again striking on the ground instead of locks because of the faster learning curve. I wouldn’t try and teach more in 6 months, I believe trying to trying to teach too much too soon can make a fighter worse.

[TkdWarrior]

umm i hav devised a set of curriculum for my lil bro to teach him MA(as he's totally unintrested, but for self defence prespective)
i taught him only one punch,
all the blocks,
some kicking involving low kicks n middle height...
drilling on kicking and avoiding them(footwork),
drilling on chain punching,
Chi-sao n Tui shao(great things it should be taught to every one),
things like sprawling, avoid legs takedowns,
distance/timing,
then some mental excercises...
first thing all this can be taught in one month and can be drilled out for next 5 months to make sure all this works
-TkdWarrior-

[wayofthedragon]

WoW, Okay, too much for me to read all the posts, so forgive me, I will just post my feelings. If I miss anything please correct me cause as I said, I didn't read over all of the posts. Though I read the first few to get an idea, of the subject.
Anyway....I think every striker should have knowledge of grappling, and vice versa, to make them a well rounded and balleced figther. With some knowledge of both then you can fight effectivly on the ground or standing.
I don't know if someone brought this point up yet or not, but If not, there goes....Get knowledge of both. Let them work together to better your fighting skills.

[Andy Murray]

Well said WOTD.

Those who think Kung Fu is primarily striking should do a search on Chin Na.
Those of you who are Bruce Lee Fans, look at the start of 'Enter the Dragon'. Bruce gets the big guy to tap out with some grappling stuff (by the way, look again, you'll find his opponent is Sammo Hung of 'Martial Law' fame).

[Spike]

Oh god, odn`t mention Cross training, as important as it is, and I would say it`s near invaluable, Freeform`ll never shut up.

[Thomas Vince]

There is no versus. When the gap allows strike, when the gap does not allowed grapple and choke them out or break a bone, when the opponet yeilds you do not, when the opponent resists you yield. A warrior blends within and without the fight. Grappling is a powerful art, striking is a powerful art, walking away is powerful art, do not get caught up in any one thing is the way without a way.

[wayofthedragon]

Originally posted by Thomas Vince
There is no versus. When the gap allows strike, when the gap does not allowed grapple and choke them out or break a bone, when the opponet yeilds you do not, when the opponent resists you yield. A warrior blends within and without the fight. Grappling is a powerful art, striking is a powerful art, walking away is powerful art, do not get caught up in any one thing is the way without a way.


beautifully said:D
Now that's knowledge that could only come from south carolina:D
(South Carolina thingy is just a joke for sensitive readers, although we all know SC produces fine quality people;))

[Sonshu]

I am interested to know everyone’s opinions on what constitutes safe & effective Self-Defence.

IN ANSWER TO THIS IT IS SIMPLE IF WHAT YOU DO MEANS YOU DON’T GET HURT THEN ITS SAFE AND WORKS – IT MAY BE AS SIMPLE AS WALKING AWAY – IT WORKS FOR ME OR IN A FIGHT YOU DO A GOOD PUNCH, THROW ETC THEN THIS IS AGAIN A GOOD WORK.

Grappling and restraint techniques as used by say the police are good, but how easy are they to apply in real life?

IF YOU PUT A DISTRACTION ON IT FIRST IE. KICK OR PUNCH OR SLAP ETC THEN THIS TAKES THE FOCUS OFF YOUR OPPONENTS RESISTING STRENGTH. IT WORKS – STANDING THERE AND PUTTING A WRISTLOCK ON SOMEONE THROWING A PUNCH IS WELL….DARN TOUGH. ITS EASIER TO SOFTEN THEM UP.

Would you happily grapple with someone when you were being attacked by more than one person.

YES BUT MERELY TO GE TTHEM TO THE FLOOR AND ME BE UP OR TO USE THEM AS A SHIELD FROM THE OTHER ATTACKERS UNTIL I KNOW WHAT IM DEALING WITH. GOING TO THE FLOOR IS A DANGERIOUS PLACE AND YOU ARE IN REAL TROUBLE IF THERE IS MORE THAN ONE ATTACKER, A JOINT LOCK WITH THE PURPOSE OF BREAKING THE JOIN WORKS BUT DON’T DWELL ON IT OR YOU ARE BROWN BREAD!!!!

Do some arts in fact teach people a load of old bilge.

YES, SADLY LOTS DO BUT YOU LIVE AN LEARN!!!!! FIND A GOOD ONE AND STICK WITH IT AS IT CAN END UP BEING A SALES TOOL FOR A LOT OF INSTRUCTORS!

Would you try and kick someone in the head?

NO – I CAN KICK HEAD HEIGHT BUT MY LOW THAI KICKS ARE FAR MORE POWERFUL AND EFFECTIVE – YOU LOSE A LOT OF POWER IN HIGH LICKS – NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE!

Has your training prepared you to strike the eyes or the throat reflexively when appropriate.

THROAT, GROIN ANY SPOT THAT WORKS, HEY ILL BITE PULL HAIR – YOU NAME IT – I ONCE HAD AN INSTRUCTOR SAY “ITS BETTER TO BE TRIED BY 12 THAN CARRIED BY 6!” IF IT COMES DOWN TO IT I WILL MAKE EM WORK FOR THERE MONEY!

SONSHU!

[TkdWarrior]

nice post sonshu,

"South Carolina thingy is just a joke for sensitive readers, although we all know SC produces fine quality people"
wayofdragon i bet u r not one of them :D :p
-TkdWarrior-

[Freeform]

Oh god, odn`t mention Cross training, as important as it is, and I would say it`s near invaluable, Freeform`ll never shut up.


Hey! I resemble that comment!

[Spike]

Indupitably, dear boy

[Darzeka]

I isn't striking and grappling as two different things it should all be incorparted.

Strike when you grapple and grapple when you strike.

If he has a really good guard, grab his hand pull down, use the momentum to pull yourslef around to the side and smack him in the side of the head or neck, ribs or kidneys.

He leaves an opening, punch, kick, whatever then grba hold, throw him to the ground then finish off.

All the grappling techniques should be combined with strikes and the strikes should flow into a grapple.

No-one can block if they can't move the arm to block with, so move it and immobilize it. This also makes them concentrate more on freeing the hand not getting out of the way of the punch. the grab can also be a lock, grab the wrist, twist and strike then wrench the locked joint.

If your on the ground, hit the vulnerable areas, not the face if you can help it (too hard - you'll break something) whilst looking for a way out or a something to snap.

You can alos use the grab to get more power into a badly balanced strike. Pull them into that fist as you punch, it will also change the range of the strike as well.

As you go into position for a grappling hip throw (hip throw with the arm normally around the waist up alongside his neck) elbow him somewhere around the head.

This approach can also change the look of your attacks, that knife hand you telegraphed may in fact have fallen short on purpose in order grab hold of there gi or something and will also draw attentio nfrom the striking limb.
The strike in grappling will make them forget about that arm they conviently set up for a shoulder lock.

[wayofthedragon]

He He, I don't have anything to say at the moment. I just wanted my post to be number 100 since it was at 99 already:D
Now I can feel special:love:

[Freeform]

That really is quite sad. But I'm 1 up on you now!

[Andy Murray]

So is anyone willing to admit they have a weakness in either area?

Do you need more knowledge of strike systems?

Do you need more knowledge of grappling systems?

I'll happily say both, but I do need more groundwork for sure!

[Spike]

I need more knowledge in both, my striking is very poor, it used to be kinda quick but it`s not what it should be.
My grappling is pathetic, in my defense that`s because I`ve done very little grappling training, the only think I`ve got going for me in groundwork or grappling is that I`m a bit of a freak, right Col?

[Darzeka]

I need to work on using an almost lock (where its almost on but not) to move deliberately to something else that they leave open.

I've been looking for oppurtunities to strike in wrestling/grappling and have been finding without striking.

My movement has been improving lots recently, probably something to do with understanding what my opponent is trying to do and how to defeat it.

[Freeform]

I'm weak in both areas, just when you think your getting somewhere you come into contact with people who are just so much better than you are. So I'll strive to improve both.

For striking I'd say I definately have to work on combinations to improve fluidity of motion.
In my grappling I'd say my grip-fighting has to improve before my next big step forward.

Spike is a complete freak and not only in the training hall (only joking mate ;) ) I twist his arms in locks that have normal people screaming but his joints don't seem to work like normal peoples!

Colin

[morphus]

Well me...against someone thats never done any grappling i do very well but if i come across someone with a little knowledge then i start to have trouble which i s'pose is quite natural, the same goes for striking but i haven't really pressure tested my striking skills in the same way i have with grappling also the freedom to move from one area to another with greater flow would be good - SO conclusion - oh yes i have weakness in both areas and am putting plans in place to train and pressure test both areas a lot more and get more of the knowledge i need.

[Mike Flanagan]

Striking I'm reasonably happy with, although there's always room for improvement. But I'm satisfied with my repetoire of techniques, just need to continue working on them.

My grappling is the area that needs more work. In particular my groundwork sucks. That said, it does improve if I'm allowed to hit while on the ground (as opposed to Judo style groundwork).

Mike

[Blackbelt]

I think that striking and grappling are equally important. However I think that people seem to think that grappling ONLY means ground fighting when it really encompasses so much more. I am pretty proficient at both and I can tell you from first hand experience that in most cases a well placed choke or lock can end a fight MUCH faster then some strikes but not in all cases.

I remember awhile back I had a female friend who was having domestic issues with her boyfriend, this women also had three other female roomates that I knew from high school as well. Well on one particular day I was visiting their place with my bestfriend who was dating one of the other roomates and we were having a nice time when the boyfriend shows up at the front door.
Now keep in mind that his girlfriend was at work at the time so it wasn't like I was over there to see her behind his back. Well he walks in and sees me standing there and starts going off on me about how his girlfriend is always telling me about their business and that I need to stop talking to his women and all this other stuff( not in such nice words though) and I just said "man look,I have been knowing her for years and we are friends and nothing more". He said some more profanities and walked off into her room.

A few minutes later she comes in from work and I knew that all hell was going to break loose, I had to make the decision on rather I should stay there or leave and I choose to stay because I had a feeling that he would try to hit on my friend. She says hi to me and I tell her that her MAN is waiting for her in her room and he is ticked off. She goes into the room and right away they start to argue while we are in the living room listening. After about a minute she comes out of the room and he comes out and grabs her by the hair, drags her back into the room, and slams the door. I immeadiately hopped up and told one of the other ladies to call the cops while I go in to ASSIST my friend. Anyway I go into the room and sure enough this punk is on top of my friend getting ready to haul off on her so I grabbed the back of his shirt collar and yanked him off of her. He gets up and rushes me with wild punches that had me on the defense for a while because he was swinging wildly, all this time my friend is screaming for him to stop and everyone else is crowding into the little room to see the fight.
Eventually I got some space by pushing him backwards and nailing him with a palm heel to the chin. He then tried to tackle me onto the bed but I slapped a guillotine choke on him and it was lights out after a few seconds of applied pressure. I then waited outside for the cops to come and I explained to them what happened and they had me sit on the curb while they asked everyone else what happened. Eventually the girlfriend agreed to press charges on him and they took him away and let me go after they got all of my info. The next day I told my sifu what happened and he was upset that I would even put myself in that situation but that I reacted the right way given the circumstances. He said that the choke was a good choice because I could have been knocked out if I choose to slug it out with him in such close quarters. Funny thing is is that A couple of weeks later I found out that she was back with the punk even after all of that so I followed my sifus advice and ended the friendship. But anyways I told that story to give an example of how compatence in both striking and grappling is essential for the complete martial artist. Hopes this helps someone.

[Cain]

Welcome to the forums blackbelt nice start, that was a pretty good post

|Cain|

[pgm316]

I agree Blackbelt, they are equally important. I think most good martial artists will agree that they need to understand both and combined they are more effective than used in a strictly striking or grappling art.

And as you rightly said grappling isn’t just on the ground. These terms are often a cause for confusion, many people use the term grappler for someone that doesn’t use strikes, and the term groundfighter for someone that does.

Ps Bb I thought you handled the situation quite well, you can avoid putting yourself in many bad situations, but you wasn’t to know that would happen. You can’t start avoiding normal life situations in case something might happen

[Freeform]

Some of you should read through this old thread and try to mentally digest it, its good reading.

Please only post a reply if you've read the entire thing. Please no, 'I agree' comments.

Cheers,

Colin

[Andy Murray]

Lord,
it seems like those original questions form much of the current discussion still.

[shadow warrior]

You should be proficient in as many aspects of martial art skill sets as possible, whether it be striking, stand up and or ground grappling.

Personal self defence is different than third party protection and proffessional applications in venue or club settings!

In the first case it is better to get a lawyer than a funeral director involved, in the second and third cases you should have a lawyer on retainer anyway! You should know when to HOLD (restrain, control and arrest) them and when to FOLD (knock down striking power) them!

Unfortunately this type of experience can be quite expensive!

Stand up striking skills rule in any multiple attacker situation in combination with stand up grappling (throwing, twisiting, projections and misdirectons).

[STASH]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
I am interested to know everyones opinions on what constitutes safe & effective Self Defence.

There is more to self-defence then grappling and striking.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by STASH
There is more to self-defence then grappling and striking.


Damn, all these years and I missed that :D

[STASH]

Didnt mean to insult you in any way Andy, I'm just frustrated...most people just look at me blankly when I talk about the psychological/emotional stuff. I think I'll start a thread on that.

[Kwan Jang]

-Good point. There is training to avoid the situation in the first place, as well as deciding what level of force is appropriate at the time. One weakness of most MA programs is too many are simply technique based. I feel that adrenal stress training is another major concern in being effective, too. Our system tries to realistically deal with both striking (stand up and ground) and grappling (stand up and ground). We also include regular use of adrenal stress drills in most classes. It's been through this that we evolved from a traditional base to mixed martial arts (regarding Andy's original query).

[Timmy Boy]

I find I generally have to use striking, unless my opponent is a lot smaller than me. This is because I am tall with a light frame, so I am the wrong kind of build for getting in close at all, but i have fairly good reach and flexibility. I do know a few grappling techniques but really I prefer striking.