Is Ju Jitsu for me?

[Ruthless Dragon]

Hi, I recently passed my 1st Dan in Shotokan karate and am now looking to start a new martial art. I've looked at a few and have narrowed it down to Kendo, Ju Jitsu and Jeet Kune Do. Could someone please tell me what Ju Jitsu is like, what the training like is like, how gradings work and so on.

[morphus]

It really does depend on the club & style of Ju Jitsu to how the class & grading are run.
I started JJ whilst still training in my first chosen art, the style of JJ i chose as an addition to my training worked along the same theories as the first, so there weren't many contradictions, it complemented it well. That is what i looked for - i did try other styles but they were too different from what i aready knew.

I think you have to make a decision, whether to go with something similar to what you already have stored or to completely overhaul what you have & gain a new "way".

Some JJ clsses will do the fitness stuff (situps, pressups & the like) as well as teach all the traditional techniques.
Others will teach less traditional(kata etc) stuff & concentrate on a streetwise system.
They both will teach locks, throws & some strikes, with weapons too maybe.
I personally like the less traditional styles, i think it caters more for the individual.
BUT as with all arts you can take what you want from any art - it's completely up to you in the end.

[Sub zero]

i agree with everything morpheus has said.

One thing i would look out for is some jj clubs i have heard of (but have never seen for myself0 just mix judo and karate together and call it Ju jistu.i would try and stay away formt hese places. altho they may be very good at what tey do.......it isn't actually ju jistu.

But it's up to you.

go try a few of each class.first class is usuall free.

[Tatsumaru]

Yep, Morpheous and Sub-zero are right. A member of my jj club got to brown belt in Karate, training under Sensei Colin Putt who is apparently now almost world famous. Unfortunately his club shut down and so i suggested he come to my jj club and see what he thought. He is now green belt and says that the two MAs mix perfectly as one mostly deals with strikes where the other is more concerned with throws and locks. His only complaint is that he cannot go in for official competitions anymore because he ends up mixing the two MAs and not being able to enter for either!

[xubis]

Hmm... what differnet styles of Ju Jitsu are there?

[morphus]

Someone had to ask - there is another thread i believe in the Ju Jitsu section.
Dozens, if not more

[sixdogs]

Hmm... what differnet styles of Ju Jitsu are there?

Oh no. I didn't know there were differnt types. I just joined school close to home. I am thinking that if I start out her in jj maybe I could do more stuff later and be able to go from standing and hitting to wrestling. I like weapons to, do I have to do 3 diff arts to get all that? I thought that what mma was but I not if they do weapons.

[shootodog]

well, the two major divisions of jujutsu are:

brazilian jujitsu and japanese jujutsu.

brazilian jj is simpler to trace. all bjj have to trace back to carlos gracie (taught by judo jjj master maeda).

jjj on the other hand is so diverse. there are many many many styles and schools (and subsystems). the oldest of the jjj schools is shintoryu (although jjj is thought to have existed before the shinto monks codified and recorded their techniques). jjj was originally taught and developed by and for the samurai to deal with the eventuality wherein they have no weapon at hand.

[greebo_1]

Yep, Morpheous and Sub-zero are right. A member of my jj club got to brown belt in Karate, training under Sensei Colin Putt who is apparently now almost world famous. Unfortunately his club shut down and so i suggested he come to my jj club and see what he thought. He is now green belt and says that the two MAs mix perfectly as one mostly deals with strikes where the other is more concerned with throws and locks. His only complaint is that he cannot go in for official competitions anymore because he ends up mixing the two MAs and not being able to enter for either!

Sorry, World famous?????? How do you know he is world famous? you didn't even know that sensei until your friend told you. Unless you can prove he is world famous you shouldn't write this. :mad:

[mikelw]

If you're going to do ju jitsu, dont' do traditional japanese ju jitsu, it is not as good as brazilian ju jitsu. BJJ trains in an 'alive' manner, i.e. resisting partners, the points system is based on positional dominance in a street fight, and if a submission is applied and the opponent either passes out or taps, you win!

The gradings usually consist of a demonstration of certain techniques, then some rolling while the instructor watches.


bjj.org check that out for some good info. Also check out www.gracieacademy.com read up on the history of BJJ.

[Dropbear]

If you're going to do ju jitsu, dont' do traditional japanese ju jitsu, it is not as good as brazilian ju jitsu.


Gee Wiz I guess all of us practicing JJJ had better pack up and go home then... :rolleyes:

[Aegis]

If you're going to do ju jitsu, dont' do traditional japanese ju jitsu, it is not as good as brazilian ju jitsu. BJJ trains in an 'alive' manner, i.e. resisting partners, the points system is based on positional dominance in a street fight, and if a submission is applied and the opponent either passes out or taps, you win!Ok, let me spell this out for you in easy to understand terms: going to the ground in a street fight will get you badly hurt. The dominant position in a street fight is to be standing with your opponent battered and broken on the floor. You guys train in an alive manner, so do most modern Japanese Jujutsu schools. Maybe the koryu schools don't, I have never seen one. But to generalise all JJJ as being worse than Gracie Jujutsu in a self defence situation is clueless.

How does your groundwork help you against 2 attackers? How does it help you against a guy coming at you with a knife? Baseball bat swung low at you to stop you shooting in for his legs? There are a lot of situations out there that Gracie jujutsu would be worse off in than someone trained in such defence techniques.

It's a good art in a one on one unarmed situation, but in anything else its main advantage is lost.

[mikelw]

Ok, let me spell this out for you in easy to understand terms: going to the ground in a street fight will get you badly hurt. The dominant position in a street fight is to be standing with your opponent battered and broken on the floor. You guys train in an alive manner, so do most modern Japanese Jujutsu schools. Maybe the koryu schools don't, I have never seen one. But to generalise all JJJ as being worse than Gracie Jujutsu in a self defence situation is clueless.

How does your groundwork help you against 2 attackers? How does it help you against a guy coming at you with a knife? Baseball bat swung low at you to stop you shooting in for his legs? There are a lot of situations out there that Gracie jujutsu would be worse off in than someone trained in such defence techniques.

It's a good art in a one on one unarmed situation, but in anything else its main advantage is lost.

Yeah, i only take the fight to the ground when the guy is bigger than me and i'm sure he doesn't have friends around. I usually keep streetfights standing (i'm better @ standup so why not). But i have used my bjj in a 3v1 streetfight. ready? because it IS possible.

I was at one of those 18 and over clubs when 3 guys (age between 18 and 20) start givin me some pretty flowers. So the bouncers throw all 4 of us out.

So we're in the parkin lot outside the club, and these guys are swearing, sayin tey're gonna kick my ass, etc. I punched the guy closes to me with a right, and was knocked on his bum. I then executed a double leg takedown on another dude (remember there's 2 now), get mount, and hit him in the face repeatedly until his buddy comes running up to us to kick me in the head. I introduced my fist to his nuts, he bent over, and I guillitine choked him out. One left. The dude on the ground was still stunned, so i mounted him again and rained down on him. The bouncers had to pull me off.

Grappling CAN work in a streetfight, however, the most good it's done me besides that one particular situation is: 1v1 fights at school, and 2: my knowledge of takedowns has allowed me from ever being taken down myself. The power to keep a fight standing OR go to the ground is something that's very valuable.

What if you end up squaring off against a 300 pound monster? Do you wanna bang standup with him? Me neither.

[Aegis]

Nope, I want him on the floor and me kicking him in the ribs to make him stay there. Well, maybe not that harsh, unless he was really trying to do me serious harm and is trying to stand up for some more fun.

Ideally I want to be about a mile away with no chance of him catching me. I certainly don't want to take the fight to the ground where I essentially have no choice but to finish him off and then go.

As for the 3v1 situation you talk about, you got seriously lucky. Had your attack not crumpled the guy rushing you (by missing the groin slightly, or not having enough power due to being in a less than ideal punching position) you'd have had no chance to fend off the 2nd attacker, and the one on the ground would eventually have worked out that he could win just by distracting you from the guy standing. I imagine these guys were quite drunk by this stage in the evening, so again, you got quite lucky in that respect. Still, congrats on surviving.

My own situation might have been similar: floor the first with a good strike, if it didn't work throw him to the ground. Drop the second guy with the double leg grab but don't follow him down. Better yet use a different dropping technique that still allows mobility, but situation determines technique rather than the other way around. Then hopefully still be standing for the third. Hardly a guarenteed game plan, but there really are no guarentees is a fight.

[mikelw]

Nope, I want him on the floor and me kicking him in the ribs to make him stay there. Well, maybe not that harsh, unless he was really trying to do me serious harm and is trying to stand up for some more fun.

Ideally I want to be about a mile away with no chance of him catching me. I certainly don't want to take the fight to the ground where I essentially have no choice but to finish him off and then go.

As for the 3v1 situation you talk about, you got seriously lucky. Had your attack not crumpled the guy rushing you (by missing the groin slightly, or not having enough power due to being in a less than ideal punching position) you'd have had no chance to fend off the 2nd attacker, and the one on the ground would eventually have worked out that he could win just by distracting you from the guy standing. I imagine these guys were quite drunk by this stage in the evening, so again, you got quite lucky in that respect. Still, congrats on surviving.


Thanks :). but nobody was drunk, it was an 18 and over club, as in, no alcohol served (i'm from the USA). Now that you mention it, why DIDN'T i just drop the guy that i took down and soccer kick him in the head? Your plan is normally what i would strive to do. Odd how that goes huh? But, i'll note that each of these guys probably had 10 lbs on me. Still, 3v1 is pretty much a difficult win anytime.

But really, I tend to be a standup fighter. I've done karate for 3 years and have been doing some muay thai for like the last year.

My own situation might have been similar: floor the first with a good strike, if it didn't work throw him to the ground. Drop the second guy with the double leg grab but don't follow him down. Better yet use a different dropping technique that still allows mobility, but situation determines technique rather than the other way around. Then hopefully still be standing for the third. Hardly a guarenteed game plan, but there really are no guarentees is a fight.

[Aegis]

This is the thing with me, I know I prefer stand up techniques, and I know that in a self defence situation I would always prefer to be standing than on the ground. My art therefore teaches enough full contact groundwork to get back to our feet if taken down, but doesn't really focus all that much on ground submissions. We're strongest when we're on our feet and able to move around. The stuff we learn is not "inferior" to what BJJ teaches, and to imply that it is is fairly insulting to those of us who put a lot of effort into getting good at such arts. Hence the rather shirty reaction you got out of me last night.

[mikelw]

This is the thing with me, I know I prefer stand up techniques, and I know that in a self defence situation I would always prefer to be standing than on the ground. My art therefore teaches enough full contact groundwork to get back to our feet if taken down, but doesn't really focus all that much on ground submissions. We're strongest when we're on our feet and able to move around. The stuff we learn is not "inferior" to what BJJ teaches, and to imply that it is is fairly insulting to those of us who put a lot of effort into getting good at such arts. Hence the rather shirty reaction you got out of me last night.

I never implied it was inferior. Ok, never mind yes i did, but that's based on my experience (rolling with just about all the local JJJ schools). You say you'd ALWAYS rather stand up with someone? What if the dude was 300 lbs? I'm not sure i'd want to trade blows with someone that size. I'd only take him down for one of 2 reasons:
1) once he's on the ground, i can run the hell away or 2) i'm sure he doesn't have any friends around

other than that, unless i'm getting my ass kicked standing, i prefer to keep it standing.

[Freeform]

I never implied it was inferior. Ok, never mind yes i did, but that's based on my experience (rolling with just about all the local JJJ schools). You say you'd ALWAYS rather stand up with someone? What if the dude was 300 lbs? I'm not sure i'd want to trade blows with someone that size. I'd only take him down for one of 2 reasons:
1) once he's on the ground, i can run the hell away or 2) i'm sure he doesn't have any friends around

other than that, unless i'm getting my ass kicked standing, i prefer to keep it standing.

The ground is the last place anyone should want to be in a scrap EVER! If the guys was significantly heavier than me I'd want to keep it in the free movement phase, using angles to keep out of his line. Also, how many 300 lb guys do you regularly 'takedown' in training, be honest.

Sure, once a guys on the ground you can leg it, well done! BJJ isn't exactly reknowned for its takedowns and throws.

Your posts betray a lack of knowledge of actual fighting. And before you attempt to get on the BJJ high horse, yes I practice BJJ and Judo and Tai Jitsu and many of the 'associated' MMA arts (wrestling, MT etc)! So my opinion is one that is experienced, not to mention the numerous fights I've been involved in.

No ART is superior to another. What IS superior is the individual and the training method!

And relax

Col

[Aegis]

I never implied it was inferior. Ok, never mind yes i did, but that's based on my experience (rolling with just about all the local JJJ schools). You say you'd ALWAYS rather stand up with someone? What if the dude was 300 lbs? I'm not sure i'd want to trade blows with someone that size. I'd only take him down for one of 2 reasons:
1) once he's on the ground, i can run the hell away or 2) i'm sure he doesn't have any friends around

other than that, unless i'm getting my ass kicked standing, i prefer to keep it standing.
ok, "I'd rather keep it standing" means that I'd rather stay standing myself. If I get the option to drop the guy while I stay upright, I'd be all for it. But the last thing I want is to be on the ground in an unknown situation with a 300lb guy trying to badly hurt me. Not that I'm completely unable to deal with that situation, I have trained in groundwork quite a bit, though obviously not as much as in BJJ.

Anyway, as for the JJJ is inferior comment, there's Jujutsu and there's Jujutsu... Some schools will probably have started down the path of McDojo. I've trained in 2 jujutsu associations, my current one (the Jitsu Foundation) is very good at practicing techniques on a resisting opponent once you have the basics mastered, the other wasn't so good, runnign a kumite aspect and a self defence aspect and never really mixing the two. For example, you'd learn to wrist lock a knife attacker to the ground, but I never saw anyone train it at full speed, ready to adapt it if it went wrong. So I've seen both sides of the coin in that respect, and I feel that while both schools have something to offer, the Jitsu Foundation teaches more self-defence oriented techniques and then practices them so that you can make something work from just about anywhere.

[mikelw]

The ground is the last place anyone should want to be in a scrap EVER! If the guys was significantly heavier than me I'd want to keep it in the free movement phase, using angles to keep out of his line. Also, how many 300 lb guys do you regularly 'takedown' in training, be honest.

Sure, once a guys on the ground you can leg it, well done! BJJ isn't exactly reknowned for its takedowns and throws.

Your posts betray a lack of knowledge of actual fighting. And before you attempt to get on the BJJ high horse, yes I practice BJJ and Judo and Tai Jitsu and many of the 'associated' MMA arts (wrestling, MT etc)! So my opinion is one that is experienced, not to mention the numerous fights I've been involved in.

No ART is superior to another. What IS superior is the individual and the training method!

And relax

Col

First off, it's easy to takedown a heavy person if they have no grappling experience.

Second, I do wrestling for takedowns.

Third....lack of experience? I've been in plenty of fights. What i said comes from my experience. Basically, think of it this way. If it's a one on one fight, and the guy is bigger than you, anyone can throw a lucky punch. Is the guy going to get lucky on the ground? No, most people have no idea what to do when on the ground.

But, i'll state AGAIN, just for you, that i prefer to keep fights standing and only go to the floor when i have to.

[NeonxBurst]

OK if you're faced with a 300 pound guy chances are he can't run very fast. And if you do have to fight why not just hit the nuts poke the eyes and RUN!!!

[mikelw]

OK if you're faced with a 300 pound guy chances are he can't run very fast. And if you do have to fight why not just hit the nuts poke the eyes and RUN!!!

Have you ever poked anyone in the eyes during a fight? Me neither, that's definitely not a high percentage technique, whereas a punch in the face is.

Note: i only fight when i CANT run, running away from a 300lb guy is a good idea. Or if i had a gun (and i don't) it would = :woo:

[mild7]

Oh dear, I've left the forums for a bit and the crazy talk is starting again.

1) Why does everyone keep saying that BJJ is useless against multiple opponents? IT is probably the best art to know when the fight goes to the ground. And whether you like it or not, there is a high chance it will esp with multiple opponents. Cross train now, regret later.

2) Gracie Jiujitsu has weapon disarms. Ask Royce to show it to you. There are black and white pictures of Helio doing various weapon disarms way back.

3) No style is superior to another, just different.

[Aegis]

1) If your training revolves almost exclusively around taking an opponent to the ground and gaining the superior position in order to finish him off, that's exactly how you'll react in a multiple attacker situation. I agree, in a situation like that it's fairly likely you'll get taken down, but if you can beat one of three while still standing, you only have 2 to deal with. You probably won't even manage that one if you haven't done some form of standing multiple attacker defence, you'll get swamped too quickly.

2) There's no use "having" weapon disarms if you don't routinely practice them. Essentially if you don't train them regularly, you don't have them available to you when you need them. Again, you'll fight as you train, in the case of most BJJ classes, this means not taking weapons into account.

3) True, though some arts specialise in some situations (BJJ on the ground for example) and are weak in others. It's all balanced out in the long run, especially if you cross train.

[mild7]

aegis,

i agree with points 2 & 3. But for point 1, I have to thoroughly disagree. I have trained in BJJ for 3 years now and I certainly am not brainless enough to take a guy down when there are 3 other 'friends' standing by. No BJJ practitioner in their right mind would do this, and if they did, they are alost cause.

[Aegis]

ok, so you wouldn't take him down. But if you've not trained very much in standing then your situation is a lot worse at this time. My art has a lot of quick throws that we practice a lot, and also 2 and 3 man attacks later in the syllabus. As such, someone in my art can handle themselves better in a standing + multiple attacker situation, while we'd probably be a lot worse off in a one-on-one situation on the ground. This basically goes back to point (3)

Having said that, 3 man situations will take a fair bit of luck to walk away from as well as a high degree of skill.

[mild7]

beating up all of your 3-4 attackers is not the definition of self-defense.

I guarantee you, I have as good a chance if not better than you at surviving a multi-attacker confrontation. I do this by running away, and only using my skill if this option is not available to me (i.e. I have been grabbed, or if I have been dragged to the ground). Can't be done? I'm an incredibly fast runner. :D

Obviously, sometimes you'd just want to clock your attackers. For that, I agree, BJJ ain't that good. But that's why I do MT and Vale tudo for. But to keep it on a pure jj level, yes, trad jj would cover this much better than BJJ.

[Aegis]

I'd never choose to engage 3 attackers at the same time either. Hey, let's be fair, given the choice I wouldn't want to engage ONE. If I can run I will, if I can't I'll stay standing until I create space and run. Unfortunately with 3 attackers it can be difficult to create the space to run, so if you engage one you have to be prapared to at least attempt to take out all 3 if necessary.

As I've said before, it's not an exact science, and we make no claims to being invincible, but we stand a better chance of walking away because of our training for it. No art is going to guarantee success in 3+ attacker situations (except Shou Shou by the looks of it ;)), only an increase in your survival odds.

[shootodog]

**sigh** someone said bjj is better than jjj again.

to paraphrase mr. miyagi: no such thing as better style, only better fighter.

[Freeform]

2) Gracie Jiujitsu has weapon disarms. Ask Royce to show it to you.

ok, could be a while though ;)

[Nissani]

what i've learned so far from bjj has worked against strikers, grapplers, and long legged kicker *******s...i just mixed it with a little common sense such as.....stay away if they have better reach until you've got the attacks timed....granted i do have very limited bjj knowledge...i've learned though that i can fight three people from the ground and keep them at bay until they one or two of them tire out and then i can do what i need...

[Nissani]

Have you ever poked anyone in the eyes during a fight? Me neither, that's definitely not a high percentage technique, whereas a punch in the face is.





a punch in the face is a way harder hit to land...smaller target...the bigger the target *for instance say the ribs* the better...not to mention its easier to guard your face whenever you're not trying to keep your eye on the target...i don't hit someone in the face until i've got the back of their head in the ground for a knockout and thats generally done with an elbow....

[totality]

haha, i find it terribly ironic that mikelw claims to have used bjj to win a fight, when he mainly used a double leg, and striking, neither of which are actually bjj.

[mikelw]

haha, i find it terribly ironic that mikelw claims to have used bjj to win a fight, when he mainly used a double leg, and striking, neither of which are actually bjj.


Are you telling me that bjj practicioners never take people down with a double leg takedown? wrong.

You don't think I had to use my positional knowledge to maintain the mount position to continue striking?

What do you even think gave me the idea to execute that double leg and grapple the dude down? Bjj maybe? What a moron.

Just because I didn't finish the dude with a sub (say an armbar) doesn't mean I didn't use grappling. Sorry if I didn't want to destroy the guy's arm.

[Nissani]

wow .......ph34r.................he does have a point people *this coming from the n00b*

[totality]

you didn't say grappling. you said bjj. please learn to read. i wasn't saying that bjj people don't know how to execute a double leg, or that your positional knowledge didn't aid in your striking, only that your whole "my bjj pwns all!!!11" attitude is completely ridiculous.

for the record, i do train bjj, although one of my instructors has also trained in a style of tjj.

and please, go back to your street fighting, i don't want you to hurt yourself trying to use one of those newfangled computer contractions.

[Freeform]

Mikelw and Totality> Ease off on the name calling please gents. If you want to call each other morons feel free to do so by PM, not on the public boards.

Nissani> Please don't swear, just because the swear blocker catches it doesn't make it ok.

[totality]

sorry FF, my point was basically just that mikelw acts as thought things like "alive" training, emphasis on positional dominance, resisting partners, and such are exclusive to bjj. i was trying to demonstrate this by pointing out that the things he used to win the fight did not even originate in bjj (nor did any of those things really originate in bjj), although i guess i did not make my message simple enough to understand...

[Freeform]

^^^^ Cool.

Positional dominance is observed in ALL martial arts, as we well know. Be it on the deck, grappling or boxing nobody 'owns' it.

[mikelw]

and please, go back to your street fighting, i don't want you to hurt yourself trying to use one of those newfangled computer contractions.

You train in bjj huh? No stripe white belt? BTW, I only get in "streetfights" when it's the only way out.

Have you ever competed in any tournaments besides something lame like say, point sparring?

Ever done submission grappling, kickboxing, or MMA tournaments? They're a real eye opener.

[mikelw]

sorry FF, my point was basically just that mikelw acts as thought things like "alive" training, emphasis on positional dominance, resisting partners, and such are exclusive to bjj. i was trying to demonstrate this by pointing out that the things he used to win the fight did not even originate in bjj (nor did any of those things really originate in bjj), although i guess i did not make my message simple enough to understand...


Yep, you made an intelligent statement. Most if not all techniques from BJJ come from traditional ju jitsu and judo. It's just what is concentrated on that makes BJJ so unique and effective.

BTW, often times, many martial arts schools DO lack things such as "alive" training, and resisting partners. I've seen TJJ schools, karate schools, and kung fu schools to name a few that simply don't do realistic free sparring.

Insulting my intelligence huh? Interesting. Have you ever considered taking an IQ test?

[Nissani]

i mean, i realize these boards are about fighting but christ can't we just get along?

[totality]

sigh...this is stupid. please stop with these foolish posts, mikelw.

IQ = 153

me = 2004 U.S. Pancrase 2nd place at flyweight

i can't really prove the first, and don't need to, but http://www.starzworld.com/Pancrase_USA.htm if you don't believe the second. my name is michael williams. i was the youngest competitor there, and the guy who beat me took fourth at GQ. :D

i train at a primarily no-gi school, we don't use belts. so i guess i should correct my self, it's sub wrestling, not bjj, although my instructors do have bjj backgrounds.

so where are your credentials, mr. badass? (you may consider continuing this via PM if you wish to proceed with these ridiculous insults)

[Freeform]

mikelw> When I ask you nicely to behave yourself please do.

mikelw & totality> If you want to continue the chest thumping please do it by PM, not on the public boards.

Colin

[Albert]

jujitsu is painful, hehe. but worth it. it is so dangerous in hands of the very experienced. I would be deathly afraid to have to fight my teacher up close, he could inflict pain, and broken bones faster than most people could even think possible.