Fun with Tabatas

[Kuma]

This is not really a routine per say, just some things a friend of mine and I have been working on.

As most of you know, Tabatas are 20 sec work/10 sec rest, repeated 8 times for a total of 4 minutes. During the work set, you WORK, going as hard as you can. Fun stuff, right?

I don't recall where we originally found the template, but this one stacks five Tabatas on top of each other with 2 min of rest in between each, for a total of 30 min. Add in a 5 min warm-up and you've got a solid routine.

Here's one I did on the bag the other day, which was pretty fun and intense.

**Lead straight - rear straight
**Knees from clinch
**Hooks and uppercuts
**Alternating roundhouse kicks (with a switch each rep)
**All available punches and elbows
**Push kicks

We also experiment with different exercise combinations. My buddy is a wrestler, so he made this fun one for himself.

**Medicine Ball Burpees
**Wall Walking
**Judo Push-Ups
**Turkish Get-Ups (with kettlebell)
**Penetration Step Lunges (a Matt Furey exercise that resembles a wrestler shooting in for a takedown)
**Scrambles on Prone Heavy Bag

I've been experimenting with some more striking-oriented ones, here's one I like right now.

**Medicine Ball Burpees
**V-Sits
**Seiken Push-Ups
**Box Jumps
**Tornado Ball Swings
**Sledgehammer Pounding on Tire

Definitely fun, intense, and not too long either (35 min total). If anyone tries one out, let me know.

[icefield]

This is not really a routine per say, just some things a friend of mine and I have been working on.

As most of you know, Tabatas are 20 sec work/10 sec rest, repeated 8 times for a total of 4 minutes. During the work set, you WORK, going as hard as you can. Fun stuff, right?

.


Not to be an as$ but whilst that is a interval workout workout it is not tabatas protocol, tabatas are not just 20 on 10 seconds off working as hard as you can.....people should really read the study and see exactly what he was doing, why he was doing it and the results he got...

[Kuma]

Obviously it is a simplified explanation for the sake of the thread. Though, if you read the actual study itself, "Effects of moderate-intensity endurance and high-intensity intermittent training on anaerobic capacity and VO2max" (Tabata I, Nishimura K, Kouzaki M, Hirai Y, Ogita F, Miyachi M, Yamamoto K.), you will see this explanation is not too far off.

[icefield]

Nope actually if you read that study you will see that it is quite far off, the only thing that’s the same is the 20 on 10 off protocol, the warm up, the number of workouts, the extra steady state session, the measurements taken and used are all important and you did none of that, so how is it exactly a tabata?

Since you quote the study you must be aware that they used a very specific % of VO2 max to achieve the results, and once their output dropped below the rpm needed to keep them at that % the workout was stopped, and resistance was increased only after 9 sets could be completed…how is that the same as simply working as hard as you can with body weight exercises?

[Frodocious]

I think this is an interesting discussion. Icefield is correct, most people claiming to do Tabata work are not, in fact, following the original protocol. However, in general terminology 'tabata' has become a bit like the term 'hoover', it is used to describe a time based workout rather than the orginal specific workout. Whilst it may not be accurately following the orginal work, it lets others know the sort of interval training you are doing. I know I use it to describe a 20/10 interval sesssion because it is easy for others to understand the sort of training I am doing. I am, however, well aware of the fact that it is not a 'true' tabata workout.

I would also say that it is very difficult for most people to do a true tabata protocol because they don't have access to the measuring equipment required.

[icefield]

True and I wasn’t trying to be an as% but my pet peeve is why are people doing the workout in the first place? What do they think it will accomplish that other types of conditioning work won’t?

People have been sold the marketing line that tabata is this wonderful workout that in 4 minutes will work both the aerobic and anaerobic system, burn fat and, (oh I don’t know cure cancer as well)

When the simple truth is he got the results he got by a combination of steady state work and interval work, he only used 1 measurement of aerobic fitness, the improvements in VO2 max peaked after three weeks and then pretty much stalled, AND he only got those results working his students at 170% of VO2 max

I’ll wager no one here will be able to do multiple sets at that measurement without having a gun put to their head

So why do the workout? If your not doing the same protocol as he used you are not going to get the results he got, its that simple, so if that’s the case why do them?

[Gary]

I don't quite see what the issue is. IIRC the original study was on cycling machines so it wouldn't translate to smaller movements anyway, or any other exercise to be pedantic. On the other hand the thread is 'Fun with Tabatas' so I seriously doubt monitoring VO2 max is the desired outcome, the frequency is just being used as an interval period. FWIW I think it would work nicely with striking drills since it would be a far better estimation of fighting endurance than the usual 100x 1-2 combos you see.

[Kuma]

Nope actually if you read that study you will see that it is quite far off, the only thing that’s the same is the 20 on 10 off protocol, the warm up, the number of workouts, the extra steady state session, the measurements taken and used are all important and you did none of that, so how is it exactly a tabata?

Possibly because the average person does not have an entire exercise physiology lab at their disposal to maintain the exact measurements and progress in the exact same way?

In the actual study, they used a cycle ergometer. So if you don't use a cycle ergometer, are you not doing a "true" Tabata?

To put it into perspective, what we used to call the parallel squat nowadays used to be a half squat, whereas the "deep knee bend" was the actual true squat form. Things change over time.

"Fun" is in the title for a reason. Let's not get too worked up over whether it is 100% true to the experiment or not.

[Kuma]

I don't quite see what the issue is. IIRC the original study was on cycling machines so it wouldn't translate to smaller movements anyway, or any other exercise to be pedantic. On the other hand the thread is 'Fun with Tabatas' so I seriously doubt monitoring VO2 max is the desired outcome, the frequency is just being used as an interval period. FWIW I think it would work nicely with striking drills since it would be a far better estimation of fighting endurance than the usual 100x 1-2 combos you see.

This is exactly the kind of thinking I have. It's very similar in regards to "punch out" drills or "bag sprints" I used to work in boxing and now in Muay Thai. You work as hard and as fast as you can on the bag for a short time, rest a bit, then repeat until the round is over. We used to do a 30/30 split but 20/10 is a bit more intense in the long run.

[Gary]

Another pedantic point, but Izuma Tabata only conducted the experiment, his name was used to label the Tabata protocol 20 on/10 off ratio of work and rest so really calling it a Tabata exercise isn't a recreation of the experiment.

[Frodocious]

True and I wasn’t trying to be an as% but my pet peeve is why are people doing the workout in the first place? What do they think it will accomplish that other types of conditioning work won’t?

So why do the workout? If your not doing the same protocol as he used you are not going to get the results he got, its that simple, so if that’s the case why do them?

Why not do the workout? It is a good interval protocol that as part of a balanced training program has benefits, and I think that is the way most people on MAP use the protocol. They don't think it is a magical path to uber-fitness, or use it in isolation, but use it as part of their weekly training program. Personally I wouldn't do a 'tabata' protocol that lasted 30 minutes, because I think the idea is really intense intervals, and I know I couldn't keep up the intensity required to justify working the concept for that length of time. Most of the workouts I've seen that use the 20/10 concept wouldn't go over 4 sets (16 minutes) of work. But that is my personal opinion, if someone feels they are gaining benefit from working 20/10 for 30 minutes, then let them do it.

[Yohan]

True and I wasn’t trying to be an as% but my pet peeve is why are people doing the workout in the first place? What do they think it will accomplish that other types of conditioning work won’t?

People have been sold the marketing line that tabata is this wonderful workout that in 4 minutes will work both the aerobic and anaerobic system, burn fat and, (oh I don’t know cure cancer as well)

When the simple truth is he got the results he got by a combination of steady state work and interval work, he only used 1 measurement of aerobic fitness, the improvements in VO2 max peaked after three weeks and then pretty much stalled, AND he only got those results working his students at 170% of VO2 max

I’ll wager no one here will be able to do multiple sets at that measurement without having a gun put to their head

So why do the workout? If your not doing the same protocol as he used you are not going to get the results he got, its that simple, so if that’s the case why do them?

You seem very knowledgeable about Mr. Tabata's research. Have you ever tried using Tabata intervals in your own conditioning?

[Kuma]

Why not do the workout? It is a good interval protocol that as part of a balanced training program has benefits, and I think that is the way most people on MAP use the protocol. They don't think it is a magical path to uber-fitness, or use it in isolation, but use it as part of their weekly training program. Personally I wouldn't do a 'tabata' protocol that lasted 30 minutes, because I think the idea is really intense intervals, and I know I couldn't keep up the intensity required to justify working the concept for that length of time. Most of the workouts I've seen that use the 20/10 concept wouldn't go over 4 sets (16 minutes) of work. But that is my personal opinion, if someone feels they are gaining benefit from working 20/10 for 30 minutes, then let them do it.

You get a 2 minute rest between the exercises in this template which helps. When I did my bag workout and was working roundhouse kicks with a switch, my goal was to try to get 40+ reps each set. Some sets I got more than 40, some I got less, but I was going balls to the wall each work set and that's what matters.

[icefield]

You seem very knowledgeable about Mr. Tabata's research. Have you ever tried using Tabata intervals in your own conditioning?

yes i did, i admit i fell for the marketing and did it for quite a while, but i dont anymore because i have not seen any research that shows the 20 on 10 second off is any better for conditioning than any other form of interval of steady state work. And since theres no way i am going to be hitting 170% of VO2 max for 8 sets, and since the inprovements they saw prety much tailed off after 4 weeks i cant see the point of doing the workout if you aren't going to do it in a way that gets the benefits his students did

Im also not sure what energy system its actually meant to improve (i mean i know the original increased VO2 max and anearobic system out put but that was working at 170% of vo2 max and no one is getting that type of workout on bodyweight stuff) its too long to effect the alactic system, too short to effect the power or capacity of the lactic system, doesnt go on long enough to effect the aerobic systems power of capacity, i prefer short alactic intervals, and longer aerobic sessions, either threshold training working on the power component or longer slower sessions working on the aerobic systems capacity