Is my style dead?

[ieuo]

I practice an art that I can find no refrence to online, and can find no one that has heard of it other than the one who taught it to me. This person has been dead since 2003. I have been searching since to find another teacher, and slowly to find anything on the art itself.

The name of the art is

Kyu Kishu no Senpenbanka

Or english

9 noble births of a thousand things that turn into ten thousand things

With the alternate translation of

9 Secret strikes of a thousand things that turn into ten thousand things


The art has similairities mostly to baguazahng, wing tsun, dim mak, drunken boxing, Shaolin snake with a hint of bujikan ninpo, and karate, but has from what I heard a japanese flavor.

It is a very unflashy art with no kicks above the knee, and no spins or jumps.
It has only 3 stances, 9 techniques, 9 belts and 9 degrees.

Any thoughts on where to find a teacher or how to continue improving in an art no one seems to know about????

[proteinnerd]

Congrats, as the last living practitioner you are now the Grand Master of the Style :D

[ieuo]

Lol I doubt I'm the last or I wouldnt be posting. I'm really hoping some people can point me in the right direction or tell me of a similar style so I can continue learning.

[warriorofanart]

To be quite frank, if the style can't be found on Google, it's bogus. That of course doesn't mean any style found on Google is real.

So count your losses and find a real art.

Of course if you can post a video of Kyu Kishu no Senpenbanka techniques, drills, katas, or just kicking someone's ass with it, I might change my mind.

Best of luck,

[Griffin]

I was looking for any info online about Bagua zhang in Japan once, like who went there/when, what it may have turned into or if it was immersed into other arts or had influence etc that kind of thing.

Anyway that was ages ago now and i couldnt retrace my steps now if i wanted to, but i can remember coming across something that refered to "nine changes".
It stood out to me becouse Hakke Sho(u) (japanese for eight palms basicaly) always coincides with eight and this tangent i found myself on was basing itself around nine.

No recolection of names for it but it looked as though it played out like you describe.
From memory they had Gi/belts, only low kicks etc.

I would look at Hakke sho or shou in japan and go from there. The "Kyo Kishu" part im guessing may mean "nine changes".
You may have to concentrate your search in Japan and go from there.

[ieuo]

Thank you Griffin that does help me pin down an area to start looking. This system is based on nine similar to baguas eight . Could you offer more detail?

WarriotOfanart I am willing to post videos of what you need if you can give me an outline of what your looking for. I will not however Fight another person as it goes against my beliefs on self defense

[slipthejab]

To be quite frank, if the style can't be found on Google, it's bogus. That of course doesn't mean any style found on Google is real.

lol... since when was Google the indicator? This reminds me of if it's not on YouTube it didn't happen. :P

on a different note:


9 noble births of a thousand things that turn into ten thousand things

With the alternate translation of

9 Secret strikes of a thousand things that turn into ten thousand things

Amusing and ridiculous at the same time. Sorry but that sound like something that is trying way too hard. You've trained this style before? Have you got Japanse or Chinese characters for this style? I'd love to see them.

[Hatamoto]

The art has similairities mostly to baguazahng, wing tsun, dim mak, drunken boxing, Shaolin snake with a hint of bujikan ninpo, and karate, but has from what I heard a japanese flavor.

I can't imagine what a style that combines all thatwould look like. I'd really like to see some ofit if you wouldn't mind, I'm not gonna make fun or anything (though I don't think it sounds legit, but that's not what you're asking for), I just can't wrap my head around something that's similar to all those things at the same time.

[ieuo]

For the record Im not claiming legitamacy. Im am looking to learn more about this style. If it would help I will post video giving a rundown of the 9 belts which should cover enough to answer all questions and perhaps assist others in helping me track down some info.

[Griffin]

I think the - 1000 things turn into 10 000 things

Come from a translation of Senpenbanka which is "Innumerable changes, infinate variety"

[SenseiMattKlein]

Do you know where your sensei/sifu trained? China, Japan? Any idea where his instructor came from? Must be more to it than 3 stances and 9 techniques. That is extremely limited, especially if there are 9 belts. Does not sound real to me to be honest. Would take what you liked best and found most useful from your training and start focusing on that, be it wing chun, grappling, kicking, or whatever. Good luck!

[Kurtka Jerker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_or_Alive_3

Maybe?

[Nojon]

No offense to the o.p., but it sounds like a wushurichard thing..

[Axelator]

Christ....

[spidersfrommars]

oh dear, well perhaps not being able to find a new instructor in this particular art may not be such a bad thing (hint hint) have you considered perhaps just studying bagua or karate instead? It may well prove to be a more productive endeavor than continuing on with this... interesting... amalgamation

[ieuo]

To the majority of posters:
I am not here as a "troll" my question is sincere.
This art has proven to be very effective for me more so than the others I have studied so I am not concerned about legitamacy. I do how ever wish to deepen my understanding of it. So any arts which you may think will help or any thing you may have come across that seems like what I am talking about will help. Anything else however is counter productive.

To griffin: that seems a better rendering of the name. I only had a little help from an exchange student at my college and what I gave is the best rendering I could. Also Im looking iinto the hakke shou but only turning up naruto references and a man named tamura could you give me more info to help wed out the anime?

To sensei matt klein I'm unsure of the origins, and there is more to it than just 9 techniques, however there are only 9 movements that change into parries, grapples, throws, etc. Here are the belt lessons as I learned them (I used terms that should be familiar to most not the, actual terms):

White belt

- Form first 3 sections
- closed stance (intstinctive movement, explanation, structure)
- closed stance application ( single arm defense, defense with both arms, natural reaction)
- Form next 3 sections
- Open stance (instinctive movement, explanation, structure)
- changing from closed to open stance to use the elbow and throw contained in t change
- Form last 3 Sections
- change from open to closed to use the palm strike and chin na contained within
- open stance (striking, throws, Natural reaction)

Yellow belt
- Punching Method, nerve networks, 12 major plexus, application
- Elbow, arm meridians (heart, lung, pericardium)
- palm, arm meridians ( large intestine, small intestine, triple warmer)
- knee, upper leg meridians
- kicks, lower leg meridians
- Stepping (similiar to circle walking)
- turning, meridians of the frontal torso
- evasion, meridians of the head
- falling, ground "stance", meridians of the back

Orange Belt
- single arm sensitivity, Min
- dual arm sensitivity, Kou
- reaction training, bao
- leg sensitivity, ting
- force removal practice , chui
- force removal practice 2 , qu
- force removal practice 3, ding
- force removal practice 5, yuan
- silk reeling, mind guided movements

Red belt
- principles of fighting, standing meditation 1, hand meditation 1
- principles of fighting, standing meditation 2, hand meditation 2
- principles of fighting, standing meditation 3, hand meditation 3
- Principles of energy, Walking (circular), hand meditation 4
- principles of energy, avoiding enemies, hand meditation 5
- principles of energy, foraging, hand meditation 6
- principles of power, standing meditation 4, hand meditation 7
- principles of power, healing basics, hand meditation 8
- principles of power, escape basics, hand meditation 9

Green belt
- balance
- timing
- awareness
- speed
- strategy
- agility
- technique
- deception
- power

Blue belt
- Full form
- Stationary dummy
- Moving dummy
- circling stationary dummy
- Circling moving dummy
- 9 stationary dummies
- 9 moving dummies
- 9 Mixed dummies
- Sparring

Last 3 belts cover weapons types in long medium and short range

[slipthejab]

9 noble births of a thousand things that turn into ten thousand things

With the alternate translation of

9 Secret strikes of a thousand things that turn into ten thousand things


Again I've got to ask... since it appears you have actually trained in this style before... Have you got Japanese or Chinese characters for this style? I'd love to see them.

What part of China was your sifu from? Who was your sifu and what's his family name. Help us to help you. :P

This art has proven to be very effective for me

How so? Have you actually had to use it? Or by effective did you mean that you've trained it consistently and regularly?

[ieuo]

I do not have any characters, everything I have was orally handed down.

I have a last name I don't see how it can help though. I can give you a rough attempt as I'm unsure of spelling (should be obvious from my first post)

Ishikiwa

Im unsure where he trained to be completely honest. Sorry if this proves unhelpful.

As for using it yes multiple times, in middle school I was sent to a school.for "trouble youth" to put it lightly and had to defend against my last sifus advanced student for leaving his system ( bet you can't guess why I left).

[El Medico]

Your system may not be dead,but as one member joked you may be the current grandmaster.Perhaps lineage holder would be more accurate.

Your system has a Japanese name,has a Japanese flavor, but uses Chinese terms.Did your ever teacher speak of the system's history? From what you've told us my guess is that your teacher or his if someone taught this system to him, was the creator.As you state it has a JMA flavor it sounds as if someone w/a background in JMAs learned Chinese boxing of some types to some unknown extent and developed his own system from whatever his combined knowledge was.

Chinese systems have no tradition of belt levels or strict grading levels until the very recent era,so unless this was developed in Japan/by a Japanese some time ago the belt/grading was either a recent addition or was created along with the system very recently.Were you the only student of your teacher? Without seeing you all I can say is it sounds a bit Pa Kua-ish in the presentation.When you said "9 techniques" I gathered you meant nine major "things" which everything else developed out of.This also sounds much like PK.As does using multiple dummies-Yin Fu's PK uses multiple poles planted in the ground.

What weapons are utilized in the system?

If this was created recently,or even if it is a century or so old it may have been just something someone created for themselves and was not taught to very many at any time.And by that I mean maybe only 1 to 3 people in a generation.So you may never find any "relatives" because there may not be any.Nor any public history.

You may wish to look into Pa Kua if you can find a teacher who's "got it" and is willing to teach it thoroughly.Not an easy find,but there are a few out there.Be aware that PK has differences among the various lines of transmission so a line w/a different flavor might not quite be a perfect fit with what you do-Cheng,T'ing-hua's line likes to throw a lot,Yin Fu's likes to strike more,etc.Griffin mentioned something he thought similar or the same as what you do,if descended in part from PK it would probably be post WII-I don't know of PK being taught in Japan before that period.

Truth to tell,when you listed the similarities to other systems in your first post it sounded like "chop suey gung fu",but from the curriculum you gave us I don't think so now.Regardless when it was made it sounds cohesive and progressive rather than just a bunch of stuff tossed together .I'd still lean towards a very recent origin tho',but that's pure speculation/educated guess on my part.

The only thing that really bothers me is the drunken boxing reference.This is a very,very, minor aspect of some Chinese systems which for some reason seems to hold a fascination for people in the last 20 or 30 years.It's not a system unto itself.This weighs heavily in my thinking your system was created during this period.Not that it matters how old it is.

Edit-ok,so your teacher did have other students-I take your relations aren't good.

[Fish Of Doom]

www.jisho.org gives

千変万化 - せんぺんばんか - innumerable changes; infinite variety

for 'senpenbanka'

kyu/ku = nine (九?)

here are the results for 'kishu': http://jisho.org/words?jap=kishu&eng=&dict=edict

[ieuo]

Fish of doom Thank you for the translation and characters its greatly appreciated.

El Medico

I don't want to be "lineage holder" of anything lol doesn't that mean if I die it ceases to be? Not a fan of that possibility.

As for the chinese term so I use those for lack of better terms. I was just told this is where energy travels and this is how to move it.

yes there is a history but I find it highly questionable so I'm not wanting to give it. I think its a fable.

The weapons are what is near by. everything is a weapon.


the dunken boxing reference meant that everything yields and the momentum from that redirects. If you kick my leg it moves with. If you punch my torso I turn. I did not mean it was a mixture. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[ieuo]

Edit-ok,so your teacher did have other students-I take your relations aren't good.

No that was wing chun not this style I took it because of similarities but quit because I disagreed with my sifus attitude. As far as I know I was the only one.

[El Medico]

Fish of doom Thank you for the translation and characters its greatly appreciated.

El Medico

I don't want to be "lineage holder" of anything lol doesn't that mean if I die it ceases to be? Not a fan of that possibility.

As for the chinese term so I use those for lack of better terms. I was just told this is where energy travels and this is how to move it.

yes there is a history but I find it highly questionable so I'm not wanting to give it. I think its a fable.

The weapons are what is near by. everything is a weapon.


the dunken boxing reference meant that everything yields and the momentum from that redirects. If you kick my leg it moves with. If you punch my torso I turn. I did not mean it was a mixture. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

It means if you're the only lineage holder and you die it dies.There's a big graveyard outside of Hangchow for CMAs that met this fate.

If the guys Griff mentioned or anyone else aren't doing your system,and you were the only student you're the lineage holder.Congratulations and my sympathies.

So your teacher didn't use the Chinese terminology,that's just you then.OK.

If the history is what's called wild history it obviously won't help in tracking relatives,other than finding people who have the same story.Too bad.

No "traditional" weaponry.Makes more sense than learning to wield a kwan do!

Thanks for the drunken clarification.Might want to omit or explain it when speaking in the future,most MA folks will think the same thing I did.

Edit-How long did you study with your teacher?

[ieuo]

I would look at Hakke sho or shou in japan and go from there. The "Kyo Kishu" part im guessing may mean "nine changes".
You may have to concentrate your search in Japan and go from there.

I found a style named genbukan hakkeshou headed by a man named tanemura is this the style your speaking of?

El medico I studied for 11 years with a teacher 17 total. May I inquire as to why you ask?

[Axelator]

I don't know why people are playing along, everyone knows his style will have been made up by the guy who taught him because

a) He's a maniac
b) He was trying to make money.

If I were you I would stop wasting time on it and pick up a legitamite martial art.

Sorry to be blunt, but when you get some ridiculosly named obscure martial art, 99% of the time it's crap.

[Sentnl]

I don't know why people are playing along, everyone knows his style will have been made up by the guy who taught him because

a) He's a maniac
b) He was trying to make money.

If I were you I would stop wasting time on it and pick up a legitamite martial art.

Sorry to be blunt, but when you get some ridiculosly named obscure martial art, 99% of the time it's crap.

Look, no one in this thread likes you. Just because it's not a well known MA, like your precious "Muay Thai", does NOT mean it is fake or bogus.

Seriously, what style WASN'T "made up by the guy who taught him", all MA's were made up by a person, or small group of people... was just a stupid thing to say on your part - Too many hits to the head I think.

So as politely as I want to be, gtfo!

[Axelator]

Look, no one in this thread likes you. Just because it's not a well known MA, like your precious "Muay Thai", does NOT mean it is fake or bogus

Oh come on don't hurt my feelings.


Seriously, what style WASN'T "made up by the guy who taught him", all MA's were made up by a person, or small group of people... was just a stupid thing to say on your part - Too many hits to the head I think.

So as politely as I want to be, gtfo!

Most martial arts weren't made up by somone they developed over centuries due to neccecity. I have a suspicion this one was made up by a star trek fan living in his mums basement.

I guess by your temper tantrum that you also study a bogus martial arts. Here's a tip. Just because you've invested time and money into it doesn't make it genuine. Just call it quits and find something legit.

[Polar Bear]

Sorry to be blunt, but when you get some ridiculosly named obscure martial art, 99% of the time it's crap.

Come on Alexator that is innaccurate it's more like 99.9999% of the time.

The Bear.

[PASmith]

As for using it yes multiple times, in middle school I was sent to a school.for "trouble youth" to put it lightly and had to defend against my last sifus advanced student for leaving his system ( bet you can't guess why I left).

I'd get onto Hollywood with that plot line.
Sounds like a winner. :)
Get Jayden Smith to play you or something.

[Sentnl]

Most martial arts weren't made up by somone they developed over centuries due to neccecity. I have a suspicion this one was made up by a star trek fan living in his mums basement.

I guess by your temper tantrum that you also study a bogus martial arts. Here's a tip. Just because you've invested time and money into it doesn't make it genuine. Just call it quits and find something legit.

Bogus martial arts? Can you define that? How can a martial art that works, be bogus?
I would understand if the "MA" someone was training in, was that "psychic rolling chi energy mind blast" rubbish, or if when their sensei touched them, they fell over in writhing pain...

There are only so many ways to manipulate and harm the human body, it would be hard to beleive that ways haven't been discovered yet. Different MA's have different methods of delivering said manipulations and harm, and if they work, in an efficient way. It can't possibly be bogus.

Just because my MA doesn't revolve around hitting someone with my elbow or knee, or kicking them repeatedly, just because my MA isn't a sport.. doesn't mean it's bogus. It's just what suits my mind and body.

Anything else? or is that the extent of your wit?

[ap Oweyn]

Look, no one in this thread likes you. Just because it's not a well known MA, like your precious "Muay Thai", does NOT mean it is fake or bogus.

Seriously, what style WASN'T "made up by the guy who taught him", all MA's were made up by a person, or small group of people... was just a stupid thing to say on your part - Too many hits to the head I think.

So as politely as I want to be, gtfo!

You know, you actually made some good points here. And I was quite sympathetic. Until I scrolled up and saw this opener. "Nobody likes you." "GTFO."

A well-presented counterargument goes a lot further than this stuff. And you had that. So why resort to this?

I think the potential for this to be a completely bogus style is pretty high. That said, people reorder and reorganize perfectly valid approaches to martial arts, naming it something different, all the time. There was a time, for instance, when Sayoc Kali was "something a couple of guys made up." That didn't change the fact that those guys knew what they were on about.

Without seeing the actual content of the "style," it's very difficult to draw useful conclusions.


Stuart

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Bogus martial arts? Can you define that? How can a martial art that works, be bogus?
I would understand if the "MA" someone was training in, was that "psychic rolling chi energy mind blast" rubbish, or if when their sensei touched them, they fell over in writhing pain...

There are only so many ways to manipulate and harm the human body, it would be hard to beleive that ways haven't been discovered yet. Different MA's have different methods of delivering said manipulations and harm, and if they work, in an efficient way. It can't possibly be bogus.

Just because my MA doesn't revolve around hitting someone with my elbow or knee, or kicking them repeatedly, just because my MA isn't a sport.. doesn't mean it's bogus. It's just what suits my mind and body.

Anything else? or is that the extent of your wit?

Did you forget to change user accounts when replying? Oopsy.

[Axelator]

Bogus martial arts? Can you define that? How can a martial art that works, be bogus?
I would understand if the "MA" someone was training in, was that "psychic rolling chi energy mind blast" rubbish, or if when their sensei touched them, they fell over in writhing pain...

There are only so many ways to manipulate and harm the human body, it would be hard to beleive that ways haven't been discovered yet. Different MA's have different methods of delivering said manipulations and harm, and if they work, in an efficient way. It can't possibly be bogus.

Just because my MA doesn't revolve around hitting someone with my elbow or knee, or kicking them repeatedly, just because my MA isn't a sport.. doesn't mean it's bogus. It's just what suits my mind and body.

Anything else? or is that the extent of your wit?

Mate what are you talking about, this isn't a great battle of wits. At least I wouldn't have guessed that from the way you're writing, and I wasn't treating it as such.

Are you familiar with this 'nine flying fists' or whatever it is martial art? I'm going to make a guess that it's not an effective method of fighting.

I don't know why you keep trying to attack my martial art. I know what I've been taught works because I go into a ring and fight people regularly.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Axe, best just to ignore the sock-puppetting, self-confessed wannabe troll.

[Dean Winchester]

Bogus martial arts? Can you define that? How can a martial art that works, be bogus?


Easy.

Sensei Joe teachers ronnin dragon bushido Ninjutsu.

He's got no training in any historical system that contains anything that could be considered Ninjutsu all he's done is some TKD and a bit of Okinawan kobudo, overall Sensei Joe has about 4 years in MA.

However our hypothetical sensei has decided he can't be arsed with hard work and actually learning something, so he's set up his own mickey mouse style with the hopes of suckering the uneducated (as far as MA goes) public into parting with their hard earned money so he can make a bit of cash while feeling like a real "master".

Unfortunately the above isn't restricted to my imagination there are countless individuals out there doing things like this.

Or you get the chap, we’ll call him “Sensei Bob” that has trained in a system for a while again can't be bothered to learn any further and goes off and sets his own system up so he can be a "teacher".

Bob hasn't even got past gaining a grounding in what he's studied but he's opened a Dojo and is basically teaching what he learnt before but under a different name. Trying to justify it by saying that nobody owns the name of "x-jutsu" and it's all down to personal interpretation.

Whilst this guy is slightly better than the first both of these are what I would consider as bogus MA.

How could a MA be bogus if it works? Well define works?

Staying with the Ninjutsu example.

If our sensei Joe or Bob have never actually been taught any Ninjutsu, maybe Bob has done a realted art but never actually got exposed to the deeper teachings, how can they be claiming to teach it?

If it’s a historical system then should it not be historically valid?

On top of that let’s change our first example a bit what if Joe for example had exposure to another art let’s say MMA.

Now Joe might be a bad ass and could well just be teaching a system that is just MMA with some crap weapon usage, to make it look exotic, now just what part of that would be valid Ninjutsu, if that were what he was claiming to teach?

It doesn’t come down to just effectiveness.

Effectiveness isn’t that hard to find, it comes down to honesty and integrity and those are commodities that seem to be a bit rarer in the MA world of late.

[Doublejab]

Bogus martial arts? Can you define that? How can a martial art that works, be bogus?
I would understand if the "MA" someone was training in, was that "psychic rolling chi energy mind blast" rubbish, or if when their sensei touched them, they fell over in writhing pain...

There are only so many ways to manipulate and harm the human body, it would be hard to beleive that ways haven't been discovered yet. Different MA's have different methods of delivering said manipulations and harm, and if they work, in an efficient way. It can't possibly be bogus.

Just because my MA doesn't revolve around hitting someone with my elbow or knee, or kicking them repeatedly, just because my MA isn't a sport.. doesn't mean it's bogus. It's just what suits my mind and body.

Anything else? or is that the extent of your wit?

Alot of schools around the world teach martial arts that don't work and are thus bogus.

It not a case of if they work, but if they can work under pressure.

[ieuo]

Wow its incredibly unfortunate that this post turned into this.

may I try clearing things up?

1. I have offered to post video all I asked for is what do you need to see, I have yet to see a response to this. So to discount something you have not seen when the opprotunity is there is fairly closed minded. Last time, if you want to see it, give me something to work with more than show a kata or beat someone up.

2. I have answered all your questions and while I have received some help, very few helpful posts have been given. Instead much of this post is bickering about authentic vs fake. I'm not asking for your money or saying come learn my style, so why does it bother you? If you think its fake fine. Just take the above into consideration.


3. For the sake of argument let me refrase my question: CAN YOU SUGGEST WAYS TO DEEPEN THE UNDERSTANDING OF A MARTIAL ART WHEN YOU NO LONGER HAVE A TEACHER OR INFORMATION AT HAND.

Alternatively

Have you heard of this art or came across something like it? I am looking to understand it more our find someone that has trained in it or similar arts?

[WhitePanda]

What was the name of your instructors? and the name of the guy who invented the art??

[TKDDragon]

To the majority of posters:
I am not here as a "troll" my question is sincere.
This art has proven to be very effective for me more so than the others I have studied so I am not concerned about legitamacy. I do how ever wish to deepen my understanding of it. So any arts which you may think will help or any thing you may have come across that seems like what I am talking about will help. Anything else however is counter productive.

To griffin: that seems a better rendering of the name. I only had a little help from an exchange student at my college and what I gave is the best rendering I could. Also Im looking iinto the hakke shou but only turning up naruto references and a man named tamura could you give me more info to help wed out the anime?

To sensei matt klein I'm unsure of the origins, and there is more to it than just 9 techniques, however there are only 9 movements that change into parries, grapples, throws, etc. Here are the belt lessons as I learned them (I used terms that should be familiar to most not the, actual terms):

White belt

- Form first 3 sections
- closed stance (intstinctive movement, explanation, structure)
- closed stance application ( single arm defense, defense with both arms, natural reaction)
- Form next 3 sections
- Open stance (instinctive movement, explanation, structure)
- changing from closed to open stance to use the elbow and throw contained in t change
- Form last 3 Sections
- change from open to closed to use the palm strike and chin na contained within
- open stance (striking, throws, Natural reaction)

Yellow belt
- Punching Method, nerve networks, 12 major plexus, application
- Elbow, arm meridians (heart, lung, pericardium)
- palm, arm meridians ( large intestine, small intestine, triple warmer)
- knee, upper leg meridians
- kicks, lower leg meridians
- Stepping (similiar to circle walking)
- turning, meridians of the frontal torso
- evasion, meridians of the head
- falling, ground "stance", meridians of the back

Orange Belt
- single arm sensitivity, Min
- dual arm sensitivity, Kou
- reaction training, bao
- leg sensitivity, ting
- force removal practice , chui
- force removal practice 2 , qu
- force removal practice 3, ding
- force removal practice 5, yuan
- silk reeling, mind guided movements

Red belt
- principles of fighting, standing meditation 1, hand meditation 1
- principles of fighting, standing meditation 2, hand meditation 2
- principles of fighting, standing meditation 3, hand meditation 3
- Principles of energy, Walking (circular), hand meditation 4
- principles of energy, avoiding enemies, hand meditation 5
- principles of energy, foraging, hand meditation 6
- principles of power, standing meditation 4, hand meditation 7
- principles of power, healing basics, hand meditation 8
- principles of power, escape basics, hand meditation 9

Green belt
- balance
- timing
- awareness
- speed
- strategy
- agility
- technique
- deception
- power

Blue belt
- Full form
- Stationary dummy
- Moving dummy
- circling stationary dummy
- Circling moving dummy
- 9 stationary dummies
- 9 moving dummies
- 9 Mixed dummies
- Sparring

Last 3 belts cover weapons types in long medium and short range

I think it would be helpful to see the "Circling the moving Dummy Drills-Blue Belt", "principles of fighting, standing meditation 1, hand meditation 1- Red Belt" and the "Stepping/Circle Walkin- Yellow Belt Drills". This would give us a chance to see a progression of the basics and direct you back to the parent arts as believe you may have trained in a mixed system made up of several arts. We might even be able to send you down the correct lineage for the CMA.

[ieuo]

TKD DRAGON

Im in the processes of moving so I don't have access to a dummy, however I will start working on a video tonight covering your request minus the dummy. It should be up tomorrow.

White panda

His Name was Ishikiwa.
As for the originator I only have a history that gives no names and as stated previously I believe it to be as it is called "wild history". Just an example it involves a buddhist temple being established in japan and subsequently becoming mountain mystics (yamabushi?) As far as I know japan was basically closed of until westeners came and the yamabushi were shinto. Thus wild history.

[WhitePanda]

TKD DRAGON

Im in the processes of moving so I don't have access to a dummy, however I will start working on a video tonight covering your request minus the dummy. It should be up tomorrow.

White panda

His Name was Ishikiwa.
As for the originator I only have a history that gives no names and as stated previously I believe it to be as it is called "wild history". Just an example it involves a buddhist temple being established in japan and subsequently becoming mountain mystics (yamabushi?) As far as I know japan was basically closed of until westeners came and the yamabushi were shinto. Thus wild history.

Do you have his full name? You aren't really giving us a lot to go on.

[Dean Winchester]

Just go do Judo




:D

[Dean Winchester]

Last time, if you want to see it, give me something to work with more than show a kata

Actually if it's supposed to be a Japanese art then showing us a kata would be the perfect thing to do.

A school's kata can convey a lot.


Posting a kata would be the way to go, imo, along with the Japanese terminology for that syllabus you posted.

[ieuo]

Ill do a video tonight demonstrating

fighting principles and meditations 1 red belt - step applications yellow belt

Followed by a video tomorrow demonstrating

Form white belt - Stepping yellow belt -Full form blue belt

Both should be up by tomorrow night.

Will This help or should I do something else?

Edit- No full name white panda I'm sorry but I'm giving you everything I can.

[Bruce W Sims]

I guess....to answer the original question from the TS...

"yes". Your art is "dead". This, of course, is based on the assumption that it ever was "alive" to begin with. I appreciate the portion of the syllabus that you furnished, biomechanically, however, there isn't much cohesion. What I gather is that a person investigated several different activities and selected some things that caught his fancy.

Philosophically, I'm afraid things don't hold together much better. The idea of many things and infinite variety seems very much the musings of a person wanting to give a Western approach ("all things to all people") a bit of an asian spin. This seems to be affirmed by the rather obscure history. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[ap Oweyn]

I'm startled that someone could study a martial art with a teacher for years and years and not know their full name. Especially given the basically one-on-one relationship being described here. I don't think I've ever trained with someone whose first name I didn't know.

[Bruce W Sims]

Oh...I don't know....... those yamabushi guys are pretty asocial. At least here in the States OUR hill-billies can pick guitars, brew moonshine and race stockcars. Lets see them folks from Japan top that!!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[SDGuy]

Ill do a video tonight demonstrating

fighting principles and meditations 1 red belt - step applications yellow belt

Followed by a video tomorrow demonstrating

Form white belt - Stepping yellow belt -Full form blue belt

Both should be up by tomorrow night.

Will This help or should I do something else?

Edit- No full name white panda I'm sorry but I'm giving you everything I can.

Ieuo,

I am very interested in seeing your videos. Please post them soon. I hope I'll be able to help once I see some movement. If you have anything that you can show with a partner (Compliant or non-compliant, IDK, just want to see application), i.e., defense against a right punch that shows X principle that would be appreciated.

Can you explain your green belt material? I find it interesting that your other belts have all techniques/forms with underlying principles but then your green belt is purely principles. How do you teach the principle of "deception", or the principle of "power"?

Are there any drills that your art uses as a "warm-up" that is specific to the art itself and isn't an individual technique/form/principle from your belt material? If so, please also provide a video. Sometimes seeing the basics will help draw a connection.

Were you ever in contact with any other student during training or aware of any other family members of your teacher?

EDIT: Also, as bogus as you may believe it to be, please post the history as handed down to you. Perhaps there is some truth mixed in that may help us help point you in the right direction.

[kikentai]

I practice an art that I can find no refrence to online, and can find no one that has heard of it other than the one who taught it to me. This person has been dead since 2003. I have been searching since to find another teacher, and slowly to find anything on the art itself.

The name of the art is

Kyu Kishu no Senpenbanka

Or english

9 noble births of a thousand things that turn into ten thousand things

With the alternate translation of

9 Secret strikes of a thousand things that turn into ten thousand things


The art has similairities mostly to baguazahng, wing tsun, dim mak, drunken boxing, Shaolin snake with a hint of bujikan ninpo, and karate, but has from what I heard a japanese flavor.

It is a very unflashy art with no kicks above the knee, and no spins or jumps.
It has only 3 stances, 9 techniques, 9 belts and 9 degrees.

Any thoughts on where to find a teacher or how to continue improving in an art no one seems to know about????

Who was your teacher?

[SDGuy]

Who was your teacher?

He said his teacher's name was "Ishikawa", and doesn't have have a first name.

[kikentai]

He said his teacher's name was "Ishikawa", and doesn't have have a first name.

There are about 10 million Ishikawa's in Japan. I know 35 personally off the top of my head.

[kikentai]

Sorry but I think this guy is trying to make something up. It's not listed in in any of my versions of the Bugei ryuha Daijiten.

At least by any combination of possible readings for his art Kyu Kishu

[The Wiseman]

No. It's not dead. It just got KOed.

[Dean Winchester]

For those that don't know.

The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten is a catologe of koryu and gendai arts published between the 1960's and early 2000's, if I recall correctly.

It's generally the first stop for looking up this sort of thing, if you can read Japanese that is :D

[kikentai]

There are several 紀州流 (Kishu ryu) listed. Most notable is Kishu Sekiguchi ryu　however no mention of his school.

[kikentai]

I'm going to come out and say it, this sounds like a huge trolling mission from mars.

[ieuo]

Sorry about the video Im having difficulty uploading I promise I will get something up tonight. And again I am not trolling that's a pintless endeavor. Will give a better response with videos.

[slipthejab]

walks like a duck... talks like duck.... could it be a.....

[ieuo]

walks like a duck... talks like duck.... could it be a.....

Im having problems uploading the video to youtube its that simple. Im not a troll. Here the deal I have 3 hours freed up tomorrow if its not up by 8 pm eastern standard time suspend my account and call me a troll.

Aside from that please give me the benefit of the doubt. I've been trying since 4 today to get you the videos asked for. I've tried everything from multiple usb cords, dnla networks, borrowing laptops, to shrinking the video they just wont upload. Tomorrow Im reshooting everything with a different camera.

Fair?

[slipthejab]

lol... I'm just winding you up... take your time. Get your vids up if possible. Will be interesting to see what this style looks like.

[Fish Of Doom]

try dailymotion.com. i've had success with it when youtube acts like an idiot.

[ieuo]

Got the video working, but I warn you all its not my best and I had a lot of interuptions. Ill have everything up shortly.

[ieuo]

Daily motion is quoting me 3 hours for one video 1 hour for another, and youtube is quoting me 337 minutes for the other. No video I'm attempting is even close to 5 minutes in length.... :mad: I'm sticking with it and will upload each as they are finished.

[ieuo]

First off, I apologize for the wait the videos just took forever to load and I can't figure out why. Thank you Fish of Doom, your advice helped greatly.

I'm going to attemt far better qality tomorrow, better movement on my part and better video quality and recodring also. Here are the few smatterings of video I did get working:


Impropmtu pre-taping session. Horrendous explanation of principles, shoes I had on had far more grip than I was used to and my laundry day pants were messing up my foot work and thus stance. However my friend was oddly "aggressive" so you should see some fair impromptu demonstraton speed fighting movements.
<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sruH7RJs9oI?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sruH7RJs9oI?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

These video covers 3 of the stepping methods in the yellow belt along with a single principle from the red belt. I think I did a terrible job here. We moved inside because it was too cold lol.

<object width="480" height="320"><param name="movie" value="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/video/xfmndn?additionalInfos=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/video/xfmndn?additionalInfos=0" width="480" height="320" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always"></embed></object><br /><b><a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xfmndn_stepping-methods_sport">Stepping methods</a></b><br /><i>Uploaded by <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/Ieuo">Ieuo</a>. - <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/us/channel/sport">Discover the latest sports and extreme videos.</a></i>


Another principle from the red belt, also trapping and another example of footwork.
Just so you know, I was getting really fustrated by this point as we had started at six, It was now7:30 and we only had 3 videos of very poor quality done and the interruptions were increasing. I was exp[ecting 6 high quality very informative videos. I was going to go into more detail but just didnt have the time.

<object width="480" height="320"><param name="movie" value="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/video/xfmndq?additionalInfos=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/video/xfmndq?additionalInfos=0" width="480" height="320" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always"></embed></object><br /><b><a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xfmndq_trapping-by-principle_sport">Trapping by Principle</a></b><br /><i>Uploaded by <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/Ieuo">Ieuo</a>. - <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/us/channel/sport">Basketball, baseball, pro wrestling and more sports videos.</a></i>

I'm going ty attempt some better quality videos tommorow.

I'll cover areas from belts white to green. Aside from that Iagain apologize for both quality of material and time it took.

[ieuo]

OK I suck at technology:

Link to the first video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sruH7RJs9oI


Link to the second video:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xfmndn_stepping-methods_sport

Link to the third video:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xfmndq_trapping-by-principle_sport

[Chris Parker]

OK I suck at technology:

Link to the first video:

Temporary edit - Failed upload again....

Link to the second video:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xfmndn_stepping-methods_sport

Link to the third video:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xfmndq_trapping-by-principle_sport

Unfortunately, none of this is a very good sign for any form of authenticity. There is nothing "Japanese" in the feeling of movement here, there is no understanding of power source or movement, there are some superficial similarities to Wing Chun, but that's about the closest I can find to anything, really.

It looks like your teacher had a tiny bit of Wing Chun, or learnt from a book or video, or just adopted some aspects from there, and taught you a frankly baseless invented system. So I'm not holding out any hope of finding any evidence of this martial art, as I would say the art never existed in the first place. The best advice is simply to find a proper school and study there, and forget anything that this previous teacher "taught" you, it won't really help at all. A lot of what I saw in the clip is frankly far below advisable in application.

Oh, and while I'm here....

White panda

His Name was Ishikiwa.
As for the originator I only have a history that gives no names and as stated previously I believe it to be as it is called "wild history". Just an example it involves a buddhist temple being established in japan and subsequently becoming mountain mystics (yamabushi?) As far as I know japan was basically closed of until westeners came and the yamabushi were shinto. Thus wild history.

The Japanese history here is rather mixed up, frankly. Yamabushi as a concept are not what you are describing here, the period of isolation was a number of centuries later, and most Japanese tend to be rather happy with poly-theisism (in other words, there is no issue being both Buddhist and Shinto at the same time). This is beyond a "wild history", it's a few words put together in the hope that it's plausible. And it doesn't quite cut it, I'm afraid.

[ieuo]

Unfortunately, none of this is a very good sign for any form of authenticity. There is nothing "Japanese" in the feeling of movement here, there is no understanding of power source or movement, there are some superficial similarities to Wing Chun, but that's about the closest I can find to anything, really..


Please wait until at least the third video is up, after that feel free to say anything, good or bad. It's 2:44 am over here and I'm doing what I can. The two videos that are up are not meant to show power or how the system looks at all. Nor do my clothes really allow for this. However there are many times where I did destroy his root from these movements alone in the video. Also I never said it is exactly like wing tsun/chun. I said it has similarities, based off f my interpretation of 4 years in leung tings system (I'm not bragging, seriously I would rather have been with duncan leungs, just pointing out that I'm not just talking ut of my a**)

A lot of what I saw in the clip is frankly far below advisable in application..


Again this was my admitedly terrible attempt at describing a few principles. They have however worked for me without fail.

I'm not a great teacher, but I was hoping these clips may prove useful. Perhaps not.




The Japanese history here is rather mixed up, frankly. Yamabushi as a concept are not what you are describing here, the period of isolation was a number of centuries later, and most Japanese tend to be rather happy with poly-theisism (in other words, there is no issue being both Buddhist and Shinto at the same time). This is beyond a "wild history", it's a few words put together in the hope that it's plausible. And it doesn't quite cut it, I'm afraid.

I said the history was terrble.

Despite my above comments, I do take what you say into consideration.

[Kuma]

I'm startled that someone could study a martial art with a teacher for years and years and not know their full name. Especially given the basically one-on-one relationship being described here. I don't think I've ever trained with someone whose first name I didn't know.

http://bifsniff.com/wp-content/files/2007/05/an-inconvenient-truth.jpg

[ieuo]

Ieuo,
Can you explain your green belt material? I find it interesting that your other belts have all techniques/forms with underlying principles but then your green belt is purely principles. How do you teach the principle of "deception", or the principle of "power"?

Are there any drills that your art uses as a "warm-up" that is specific to the art itself and isn't an individual technique/form/principle from your belt material? If so, please also provide a video. Sometimes seeing the basics will help draw a connection.

Both of these are contained in the green belt, deception is taught by demonstrating errors in thinking and how to exploit them. For example make a large step back with a shift to the side, look like a small step back.

Power is taught with striking methods such as striking a hard surface ( a wall for example) slowly and graduallly increase speed and force until full force blast are hitting the wall. Or even just proper body alignment, directing force through the body etc.

Were you ever in contact with any other student during training or aware of any other family members of your teacher?.


I came across another person who claimed ot have learned the same system yes, but he gave it a different name. However everything was basically the same and in place. He is 28 now and says he still practices what he was taught.

EDIT: Also, as bogus as you may believe it to be, please post the history as handed down to you. Perhaps there is some truth mixed in that may help us help point you in the right direction.

Trust me, the history is very bogus. It would be far more detrimental then helpful.

[ieuo]

Last vid is now up, 3:45 am I'm done with these forums for a few days, sleep and life call. Bring your opinions good and bad.:zzz:

YouTube - Impromptu

[Aegis]

Power is taught with striking methods such as striking a hard surface ( a wall for example) slowly and graduallly increase speed and force until full force blast are hitting the wall. Or even just proper body alignment, directing force through the body etc.

Sorry to be so blunt, but this is an incredibly stupid method of teaching power generation. If you punch an object with no give in it at all, like a wall, you can expect to have very serious joint problems as you get older, as there is no doubt that you will badly mess up your knuckles and other striking points.

There's a reason why full contact fighters use pads and bags when developing their striking power.

[kuntaoer]

UHHHH ERRRR YEAH???? OK Looks a lot like an art I had exposure to in Korea.. It was called Fulinyu

[Chris Parker]

Please wait until at least the third video is up, after that feel free to say anything, good or bad. It's 2:44 am over here and I'm doing what I can. The two videos that are up are not meant to show power or how the system looks at all. Nor do my clothes really allow for this. However there are many times where I did destroy his root from these movements alone in the video. Also I never said it is exactly like wing tsun/chun. I said it has similarities, based off f my interpretation of 4 years in leung tings system (I'm not bragging, seriously I would rather have been with duncan leungs, just pointing out that I'm not just talking ut of my a**)


Hmm, watched all three now, the newest one seems to just be a repeat of things in the first one you put up, with more laughter from your camera-person. Not that I blame them, honestly.

If these videos are not meant to show how the system works, and the reason you did them was a request from a member to see how the system works, then what is the point of the videos? They are showing a system but not showing a system? Really, if there was any basis to this system it should be evident through any demonstration done (some basic structure, some sense of power development, not just "hitting walls", that isn't power development, it's just hitting walls, etc), regardless of what you were wearing. And how do loose clothes stop you from being able to move? Just don't get that....

No where that I saw was any "root destroyed". Nor was there anything that I would rely on on anyone even half my size, really. The lack of an attacker helped you a bit, but not that much, honestly.

No, you didn't say that it was "exactly" Wing Chun, I said that the closest I could see was a few similarities to the system in some of the mechanics. That said, if that was the result of 4 years in Wing Chun for you, well, I would have gone with 4 months if I was guessing based on your clips. No bragging necessary on your part, I'm afraid.

Again this was my admitedly terrible attempt at describing a few principles. They have however worked for me without fail..

I get that you were just running through principles here, unfortunately they have no basis in the actual principles required. You were more going through some strategic approaches, rather than the actual principles that would make up a martial system (such as principles of posture, power source, movement etc). So it fails on that count as a system in the first place, before we even get to the idea of it being a legitimate (established, pre-existing) system.

Can you talk about these times it has "worked without fail"? I'm not seeing much that I'd rely on, honestly.

I'm not a great teacher, but I was hoping these clips may prove useful. Perhaps not. .

The question then would be what did you think they would help with? If they don't show the system, the way it moves, it's power source, and can't do so due to the way you were dressed (?), really, what was the point of them?

I said the history was terrble.

Despite my above comments, I do take what you say into consideration.

The history isn't just terrible, it is downright wrong. And that is one of the first hallmarks of a fraudulant system. So far there is nothing that has been presented, or anyone has found, that supports this art being anything more than a fantasy creation. And that's stating it gently, honestly.

[Doublejab]

Sorry to be so blunt, but this is an incredibly stupid method of teaching power generation. If you punch an object with no give in it at all, like a wall, you can expect to have very serious joint problems as you get older, as there is no doubt that you will badly mess up your knuckles and other striking points.

There's a reason why full contact fighters use pads and bags when developing their striking power.

This is very true.

Its also worth mentioning that not only is hitting very hard immovable objects damaging to your joints, its also very unrealistic. People move before you go to hit them and as you hit them. Hitting a punchbag that swings or a floor-to-ceiling ball or pads is actually far more realistic than hitting a wall.

[Kuma]

People who advocate solid objects simply don't understand basic physics.

When you first hit something, at initial impact all the force you generated goes into your target. Since for every action there's a reaction, now the reactionary force comes back into YOU. If you are more solid than what you're hitting (i.e. you're well-balanced and your opponent isn't at that time), the force then can actually bound back into your opponent, creating a secondary force. However, if you hit a wall or some other solid immovable object that is much larger than you, guess where all that secondary force goes to? Back to your fragile little hand. Guess who wins in the long run? Not your hand.

[kikentai]

Yup, it is probably dead. It sounds like your guy (if he exists) made up something up or it is an import from China and changed to be Japanese and finally what you learned.

It reminds me of this kind of stuff. Which is basically Tai Chi.
http://www.bab.co.jp/hiden/dvd/07taikiken/index.html

YouTube - 島田道男 太気拳

[Axelator]

Nice, I think I've been proved right. I disagree with nearly all the principles you demonstarted in your video. THey have obviously not been pressure tested. If you got in a real fight all these things would go out the window as they are not practical.

[El Medico]

Yup, it is probably dead. It sounds like your guy (if he exists) made up something up or it is an import from China and changed to be Japanese and finally what you learned.

It reminds me of this kind of stuff. Which is I Ch'uan.
http://www.bab.co.jp/hiden/dvd/07taikiken/index.html

YouTube - 島田道男 太気拳 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7sISKtrqWk)
No need to thank me!

That link shows what is probably a lineal descendant from Kenichi Sawai.Certainly looks like Sawai's stuff.

Sawai named his I Ch'uan "Tai Ki Ken",which translates as T'ai Chi Ch'uan.But it ain't TC.

[SDGuy]

Both of these are contained in the green belt, deception is taught by demonstrating errors in thinking and how to exploit them. For example make a large step back with a shift to the side, look like a small step back.


I'm sorry. I don't understand. If I saw my opponent take a large step back with a shift to the side, it would look like a large step back with a shift to the side, not a small step back. Please elaborate.


Power is taught with striking methods such as striking a hard surface ( a wall for example) slowly and graduallly increase speed and force until full force blast are hitting the wall. Or even just proper body alignment, directing force through the body etc.


Everyone already explained why this would be a bad idea.


I came across another person who claimed ot have learned the same system yes, but he gave it a different name. However everything was basically the same and in place. He is 28 now and says he still practices what he was taught.


If you found someone else that studies your system or an extremely similar version of it, why not practice with them? What was the different name they gave?

From what I saw in your videos there is zero Japanese movement/influence. Honestly, so far it looks like bad Wing Chun. Do you have a more advanced form that you can record that would set this system apart? Also, you contradict yourself in your videos. In the first video, you block a punch across your body (His right punch was blocked with your right hand). But in the third video, you specifically call out that this would be a violation of the principles of movement within your system and you demonstrate blocking his right punch with your left hand.

Also, just a personal criticism if you choose to post more videos, I would prefer if there was less talking and more technique/application.

[Kobudo-man]

To be fair, I would like to give props to the OP for actually having the courage and confidence to actually post videos of his system. It's a lot more than I've seen others who come through here do.

It seems you honestly believe in this style, and that's commendable. I see a lot of people who when we ask for vids of their style they go into defensive mode and don't actually have enough confidence in their style to post anything. You've been compliant and helpful through the process and that is indeed appreciated, at least from my perspective.

Unfortunately it does look like your style is dead, and its application looks somewhat questionable to say the least. I know you've said that it helped you through a few scrapes, but it's possible that that was simply nat. instinct rather than this style.

I would love to see you pick up another art, if you put the level of dedication you've shown into anything you could probably do well. As other MAPers have said, do Judo. Of course if you want an art concentrated more around striking [shameless style plug] you should try Karate [/shameless style plug] or Muay Thai. Maybe another member could suggest a good Chinese Martial Art you'd enjoy?

[Infrazael]

Not Japanese.

Not Chinese.

Maybe a little mix of tidbits taken from styles A, B, C, D, and E. Like a horrible version of JKD or something, but without any substance or fundamental structure, philosophy of combat, or a framework upon which power generation, technique, and strategy is based on.

In other words, I would not even classify what you showed as a "martial art" to be brutally honest.

Techniques in and of themselves do not formulate a martial art.

Strategies in and of themselves do not formulate a martial art.

You demonstrated a few "tactics" and a few "techniques" although extremely crude and probably wouldn't actually work on a trained resisting opponent unless you were twice his height, weight, and natural power.

I implore you to seek proper instruction in a system that stresses hard work, a lot of sparring and tones down the theoretical non-fighting. Hard work mainly being a lot of cardio, strength & power development, body-frame development (a strong structure that supports your style's techniques and concepts), and A LOT of repetitions hitting the pad, bag, and other people.

[ap Oweyn]

To be fair, I would like to give props to the OP for actually having the courage and confidence to actually post videos of his system. It's a lot more than I've seen others who come through here do.

It seems you honestly believe in this style, and that's commendable. I see a lot of people who when we ask for vids of their style they go into defensive mode and don't actually have enough confidence in their style to post anything. You've been compliant and helpful through the process and that is indeed appreciated, at least from my perspective.

That's a very good point actually.

[PASmith]

And what's more we've now got a contender to take Fish of Dooms title of "Most outrageous hair on MAP".
No mean feat I think you'll agree.

[RagingDelirium]

looks like you might want to investigate Wing Chun /Tai Chi in the meantime, which would at least afford you the opportunity to sparr

[The Wiseman]

Yup, it is probably dead. It sounds like your guy (if he exists) made up something up or it is an import from China and changed to be Japanese and finally what you learned.

It reminds me of this kind of stuff. Which is basically Tai Chi.
http://www.bab.co.jp/hiden/dvd/07taikiken/index.html

YouTube - 島田道男 太気拳 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7sISKtrqWk)

Lol the dude spelled it wrong! Its tai ji quan not tai qi(as in ki, chi) quan its great ultimate fist not great energy fist.

[Bruce W Sims]

Seems as though we have moved to the next step pf the process. While the original question asked whether the art was "dead", I am glad to see that folks did not simply stop there. I agree that it would be a waste to have such passion allowed to degrade through inattention.

I see a lot of focus on versatility and practicality in the clips, though I would not support many of the conclusions from the standpoint of Hapkido. All the same, I think a decent pursuit might include either an authentic JU JUTSU or AIKI JU JUTSU practice. The downside is that such schools and teachers aren't found on every street corner, but at least it would keep things framed within a Japanese tradition. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Infrazael]

Ya man the kid has a lot of passion it seems given proper instruction in a solid art he has potential if he wanted to put in the sweat and time.

[Fish Of Doom]

Lol the dude spelled it wrong! Its tai ji quan not tai qi(as in ki, chi) quan its great ultimate fist not great energy fist.

taijiquan = taikyokuken

yiquan = taikiken

dunno if taikiken actually translates as yiquan, but it's the name they gave it.

[SDGuy]

To be fair, I would like to give props to the OP for actually having the courage and confidence to actually post videos of his system. It's a lot more than I've seen others who come through here do.

It seems you honestly believe in this style, and that's commendable. I see a lot of people who when we ask for vids of their style they go into defensive mode and don't actually have enough confidence in their style to post anything. You've been compliant and helpful through the process and that is indeed appreciated, at least from my perspective.

Unfortunately it does look like your style is dead, and its application looks somewhat questionable to say the least. I know you've said that it helped you through a few scrapes, but it's possible that that was simply nat. instinct rather than this style.

I would love to see you pick up another art, if you put the level of dedication you've shown into anything you could probably do well. As other MAPers have said, do Judo. Of course if you want an art concentrated more around striking [shameless style plug] you should try Karate [/shameless style plug] or Muay Thai. Maybe another member could suggest a good Chinese Martial Art you'd enjoy?

I second this. I respect the fact that the OP has done his best to answer everyone's questions to the best of his knowledge and even posted videos of his system. This leads me to believe that he is being honest with us, and why I want to see more on the off chance that we can see some better material.

If you choose to move on to a more "main stream" martial art, I would recommend Wing Chun, assuming you can find a credible school in your area. From what I've seen that would be the closest thing to your current style.

[Kuma]

Where are you from ieuo? This way we can give you some recommendations from your local area that may fit what you've already been focusing on.

[gorinnosho]

walks like a duck... talks like duck.... could it be a.....

A yellow finned tuna?

what could it be??

[Infrazael]

FALSE

black bear

[Atre]

^ meh, less of the junk please.

OP has been sincere, helpful, not flown off into a rage at any point and HOLY <censor> actually posted videos. I think that actual help from us would be good.

I would love to see some more extended videos of the style in use if possible, lots of physical stuff for us to see without the discussion (not that discussion wasn't useful, but seeing the movements is best for "oooh that looks like style/art X".

If this is a troll, he's behaving indistinguishably from a genuine request so I'd go with benefit of the doubt.

[Kobudo-man]

please read the last page of posts atre. We have been sincere, so no worries.

[Nojon]

Can I sum up/end this thread?

Is my style dead?

Yes.

[Griffin]

The particular style may be dead, but theres really nothing unique with it, as pieces of it live on (or should i say come from) in a collection of other styles.

Kind of a mash of some internal arts and a hint of wing chun. Which is what i would suggest (either of those) the practioner pursue further learning from.
It is in itself incomplete.

[Atre]

please read the last page of posts atre. We have been sincere, so no worries.

Thanks, I saw (hence why I know what the OP has been doing) - I just thought we might be going off topic with respect to that...:)

[ieuo]

I appreciate the responses and direction to other arts. I have no problem moving to any style that is similiar. So far it looks like wing chun from most of the posts. I am located in North western U.S.A. I can travel and will be travelling extensively starting next spring.

I will get more videos seeing as it has been requested, hoever this may take some time. My girlfriend suggested the first two sections of the form and the 9 basic techniques. I may also put up a video with my friend of some light contact sparring, and possible a taekwando guy (possibly)

I have also noted that there are many posts that say they see no structure or power. There are a few reasons for this. The first and more obvious is that I thought the question was asking for the principle as explained in the belts, which are rules that must be trained with (i.e.e basically like sparring except the focus is on training the principle and understanding how it works). Showing structure power etc. I felt would hinder this. The second and far more important one: I have no idea how to show this through video.

I asked for helped through a PM on this one. So I may have a solution. I will use the following quote:


power generation is the result of the mechanics of the system, and is a universal throughout every aspect of the system in question. There should be no way of showing any aspect without it being evident in the movements.




All I can say is any force directed at the body is either moved with, or redirected inside the body. Anything directed at the opponent uses the same methods as above, or methods that are not directly visible. Perhaps something on your end will serve much better. Try this (3 steps):


Step 1

Stand with your feet shoulder width apart and have someone push into your shoulder.

If you position your body correctly the force will move into your feet and push against the ground.

When you understand this have your partner push into your forearm (held horizontal woth the ground), with a few attempts you should again be able to get the force to go into your feet, and push against the ground.

If you can do that, then you can understand the following explanation:

Any force applied is redirected through the body. This can be used to add force to kicks knees punches elbows etc. This is practed until it doesnt take effort, thought, or any ideaal positioning. One should be able to do this at all time and redirect the force in any direction needed.

Step 2

Have your partner take any stance and hold it. Notice the position of the feet. If they are anything but parrallel imagine a line extending from the heel and toes so that you have a complete V shape. From the center of each foot imagine a line connecting the feet. You should have a triangle imgained in your head. From the tip of the triangle to the middle of the line connecting the feet, draw one last line. If the are parrele do the same but divide the square. This line is of immense importance in this system.

With your friend standing in stance, stand on this line with one foot on the center of the line that connects the feet. Make sure you are completely lined up with the imaginary line. push him along this line. This line decides the main direction of attacks.

Next have your friend attempt tosses or take downs while you stay on this line and apply normal defense work.

This line also decides the main position to be in.

Step 3

Find the center axis that both you and your opponent rotate on. We defend this center axis while striking at our opponents.


The above is very basic but I believe it will help.

As for structure again, I think Something along the lines above will help better than anything.

The main stance is similair to the bagua dragon stance as seen here:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:WTCdOk0g4GxoRM:http://www.pa-kua.com/fyi8/cstanceb3.jpg


With a few major differences.

1. The hands are pulled in to one hand length away from the body.

2. The hands are positioned in the upper center and lower center of the torso (divide the upper body in half, the center of the two halves is what Im trying to point to).

3. The elbows are held a fist distance away from the body.


4. The feet are exactly shoulder width and parralell (heel with heel, toe with toe) and the toes of both feet point 45 degrees away from your oponents line (as discussed above).

5. Both legs are bent at the same degree, with all the weight on the back leg and the front leg resting under its own weight.


This is a static posture, and a very basic description but it helps me describe a great number of things about the structure in the system:

Taking the above stance, rotate your upper elbow in towards the center of your body while lifting your elbow and closing your hand into a fist. Keep your hand on the center of your body. This will give you a basic idea on how a punch is to be executed in this system. When you understand this movement you can understand the structure of the system a bit more. Everything has this sort of short distance, straight line rotation. have a friend push on your fist, if his push ends up in your legs you did it right.

Place both hands in a fully extend punch, you will notice a horizontal triangle shape. This shape is used to deflect our oppents strikes to the outside of our body among other uses. It also gives the punch support from the torso.

Return your hands to their orginal poistion. Have your lower hand move in the same way as you did before except let your fist rise into the upper position (your lower hand should be in the exact same position as the punch from before). If you pay attention the lower hand makes an angled ascent. this angle, along with the line of the fully extended punch make another triangle. This one vertical. The shape is used in a similair way as the horizantal triangle.

The basic punch is similair to the wing chun chain punch in that it is launched in rapid succesion, and the non extened hand is open. The major difference is the the punches come from the bottom and not the direct center.


While I can go into vastly more detail I think I have given plenty. Please play around with what I have given before commenting on it.
I know from personal experience it doesnt look like much but in practice it has worked very very very well.


In short:

Power is first generated by directing force through the body, second by striking along certian "lines" and proper poisitioning, third by striking at the the most vulnerable area availble, lastly by structure.

The reasoning is you cant always have perfect structure, positioning etc.

However one should strive to maintain all the above points at all times.

Hope that helps.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

All I can say is any force directed at the body is either moved with, or redirected inside the body. Anything directed at the opponent uses the same methods as above, or methods that are not directly visible. Perhaps something on your end will serve much better.

Uh...isn't your opponent's aim to direct force into your body though? That's why they'll be hitting you, to try and apply force to your body and internals. Trying to do the same as them seems a little self-defeating.

[ieuo]

Uh...isn't your opponent's aim to direct force into your body though? That's why they'll be hitting you, to try and apply force to your body and internals. Trying to do the same as them seems a little self-defeating.


Let me be very explicit:


To get to your body they must get through your limbs and evasions. If they succeed and it is a strike, then you move with it and use that movement to add force to your strike/defense/evasion/etc. Otherwise a certain amount of force will enter you body through the limbs, and this can be redirected as per the very first example.

Of course not all force in a fight is a strike. It can be a pushing force, a rotating force, a lifting force, etc. All of which can be redirected in one way or another against your opponent.

Further more I did not say assist their force to its intended location and use, that would be self-defeating. I said to re-direct the force.

I gave some examples you could try so you would know what I am talking about, please try them. I ask this because in the very first example you would have seen I am talking about something very different than you seem to be.

[Doublejab]

Let me be very explicit:

I ask this because in the very first example you would have seen I am talking about something very different than you seem to be.

http://www.akacrasher.com/stuff/FAIL/perp-u-fail.jpg

:)

[Chris Parker]

Hi Iueo,

I'm going to be blunt. I recommend that you don't bother with any more videos as you are not showing any actual understanding of the basic underlying principles that would need to be present in any genuine system. For example, we have not asked to see "power", we have asked why there was no evidence of a power source in the movements you displayed. As I said, if this was a genuine system there should be no way you can do any kind of demonstration without it being evident to someone watching (it's not something that you can demonstrate the system without, really, as that would be like demonstrating a dance without having any concepts of rhythm present. Even in a single dance movement, there is rhythm, same with martial arts).

To show what I mean, here is a demo of basic elements from an Escrima system, Doce Pares. The demos are slow, with little power, but at all times there is a structure to the movement (physically), and a power source is evident. If you can't see that, then you have recieved no education in martial arts at all so far:

YouTube - Tom Sipin - Doce Pares Eskrima

Right now you are coming across as someone who has a bunch of words (that honestly don't really make a lot of sense as soon as a bit of reality is applied to it) which you think makes an actual martial art system. It doesn't. It is missing everything that should come before it.

To be honest, if it isn't obvious to you by now that your system doesn't really exist outside of the experiences you have had, I don't what else to tell you. It has an incongruent name, an incongruent history, a total absence of anyone even hearing of it, it is missing all the key aspects of a genuine system, and the concepts you posted above simply don't gel. I'm sorry, but your art isn't dead. It was never alive in the first place. I hope you manage to move on and find some real training if you wish to really understand these arts.

[Sifu Ben]

http://www.mkgseattle.com/page.asp?content_id=8835
This place could be good for you, their Hubud and Panantukan classes should be of interest to you, and then they've got a CSW/STX program as well.

[Infrazael]

Why do I get the feeling y'all are gettin trolled.

[Kobudo-man]

if we are then it's a very good troll and not as stupid as usual. I want to support the increase in trolling quality.

But I don't think we are.

[Infrazael]

i HOPE we are for the sake of the OP

[Griffin]

ieuo,
In your "impromtu" vid at about 3:30 or so, your movement in that particular tech is somewhat similar to that of B.Frantzis, (in a vid on stepping that he has removed unfortunately from you-tube) also:

YouTube - Bagua Martial Arts Applications: Taoist Lineage Holder Bruce Frantzis

here he is talking about similar interests that you have in relation to contracting/expanding forces etc
Have you considered continuing your training with his group?
I think you would meld well with his aproach to Bagua.
The reason i say that is, you have a passion for what you have there, and i would hazard a guess to say that you would love to teach some day.

To do that you will need paper on the wall in a recognised system. Have you considered options like this?

cheers
Griffin

[Infrazael]

so OP disappear, either a troll or is butthurt

[ieuo]

so OP disappear, either a troll or is butthurt

Or incredibly ill :)

I will be more active the next few days. for now a brief update:

It seems we are looking for a compatable system to earn as opposed to looking for this system in question. I have no problem with this and look forward to learning a new system.

[Infrazael]

Or incredibly ill :)

I will be more active the next few days. for now a brief update:

It seems we are looking for a compatable system to earn as opposed to looking for this system in question. I have no problem with this and look forward to learning a new system.

if not a troll then i'm happy you have thick skin.

many people ragequit way too soon the moment people start to disagree.

[ieuo]

if not a troll then i'm happy you have thick skin.

many people ragequit way too soon the moment people start to disagree.

Giving up just prevents us from reaching the truth :)

With all said and done though I believe in the system I was taught, however I appear to be at a dead end at learning anything directly related to it. Learning a new or similair art is not a bad idea when faced with such a situation.


I am working on one last series of video to hopefully find a new art. I am interested in the styles presented so far but am trying to find some more "street applicable" demonstrations concerning them.



Griffin

I was in fact training to be an instructor in Wing Tsun until I had a falling out with my sifu over some "kobra kai" methods he was pursuing.

[Griffin]

I am working on one last series of video to hopefully find a new art. I am interested in the styles presented so far but am trying to find some more "street applicable" demonstrations concerning them.
.

Vids, The response here has been pretty good mate believe it or not, more vids would be good to see.

Street applicable, mate that always comes down to the practitioner not the style. Can everyone Box just cause they attend boxing lessons? Hell no, it is very clear in that environment its the practitioner not the style.
The most important factor in any style is strong basics, then the ball is rolling to work with any system.

Quality training mate, thats the important factor and the sign above the door rarely gaurantees that, the Instructor you get does, again its the practitioner not the style.

Hows it going mate, you find anything local that you like? You dont have to give up on your style you have, you can find something to meld with it, bring it to fruition.

:cool: