How to make a Katana?

[Teryan]

I was instered in how a Katan was made. I heard it takes modern day Katan makers about six weeks with 9 hr days. If you could ponit me in the directino of some web sights or books, I would greatly apprecate it.

Why is the Katan so sharp? I've heard that it is beacuse they fold the metal over and over (making the marks on the sword), that takes the oxygent out.

Thank you for your help.

[Kof_Andy]

Yes decent katana takes awhile to make. Thats why the custom sword are so expensive. Usually it cost average about 7000+ US dollar. Katana are sharp but they arent known for is sharpness. It takes awhile to forge because there many different material being forged with, the inner and outter lay are completely different. There soft in the inside and hard on the out side, proving it a much much stronger durablity, and balance. Is because the curved edge, help increased acceleration so its a perfect tool for cutting people. Also there kissaki has many different type for different style, depend on what the katana is use for. Here's a link for this wonderful site about japanese sword.
http://www.sword.ne.jp/sword.htm

[Virtuous]

I have some book marks at work, Ill post them here tomorow.

I can tell you a few things off the top of my head and answer a few of your questions.

Why is the Katana so sharp? For starters the katana's edge has been a bit dramatized to nearly mythical porportions. A good portion of it's ability to cut is attributed to the edge but the majority of it technique.

The reason why it cuts so well is it's design. Its curved, it has a LOT of cutting area in a relativly short distance. The katana is not designed to cleave like a midieval long sword. The theory is you place the blade along the surface and draw the blade towards or away from you. Think of a steak and a VERY sharp steak knife, if you place the edge on a steak and push straight down it will cleave the meat. It would take a fair amount of effort to do this . Now take the same knife, place it on the steak and pull the blade towards you so the edge is moving across, it will cut through it like butter. With a very sharp edge and all that extra cutting area from the curve you can image you can do a tremendous amount of cutting in one pull! Im talking through torsos, necks, arms, and legs with ease!

Now why they fold the metal. The iron/steel available in japan at the time was very inferior in quality. Metal folding is a tried and true way of removing the impurities from the metal. So the more it was folded the purer the steel, so in a way yes it did make the steel stronger and more consistant throughout, but the real enginuity is the way they temper the steel.

The problem at hand was the japanese had a relativly thin and light edged sword. How do you make the blade maintain a nice hard enduring edge but make it flexible enough so it doesnt shatter on impact.

Metals have a really neat mechanical property that when you heat it to a certain point and cool it changes the crystaline structure allowing it to be very maluable (soft and flexible) if you cooled it relativly slowly (ie in oil) or very hard and britle if you cooled it very fast (ie water). This process is called quenching.

So what the japanese did was paint clay along the edge of the of the unfinished blade and then heat it up. Clay has a higher thermal capacity than steel and so when they heated the sword The parts covered by clay would be hotter than the rest. When the sword was then quenched the part covered by the clay would relativly cool faster than the back making it harder and the back a little bit softer.
The pattern you see is the change in the crystaline structure from hard metal to soft.

Alot of people will say this is where the sori (the curve) comes from. This isnt true. If this was true the blade would curve in the opposite direction because the faster cooling edge would contract faster than the softer.

[Virtuous]

Another reason the edge is so hard and durable is the way it is shaped. There is no sharp 35-45 degree bezel on the edge. The edge is slowly tapered from the top to the botom. This process is called polishing and is another art in it's self.

The forging and polishing of these blades can take months and costs 1000's and 10,1000s of dollars. To me each one is a beautiful piece of art with 100's of hours and a ton of the artisans blood and sweat goes into these. They are truly small treasures.

This kind of turned into a small primer on smithing and metalergy, I get on a roll some times. Sorry for the novel :)

[Cudgel]

Originally posted by Virtuous
Alot of people will say this is where the sori (the curve) comes from. This isnt true. If this was true the blade would curve in the opposite direction because the faster cooling edge would contract faster than the softer.
Virtuous you made a few small mistakes.
Actually that is why the curvature forms. The crystaline structure that forms from rapidly cooling iron and iron carbide molecules is larger tahn that of the slower cooling crystalline structure of the spine.

All swords have to have proper edge geometry or the wont cut. Be it a katana or a medieval longsword.Metals have a really neat mechanical property that when you heat it to a certain point and cool it changes the crystaline structure allowing it to be very maluable (soft and flexible) if you cooled it relativly slowly (ie in oil) or very hard and britle if you cooled it very fast (ie water). This process is called quenching.
And not all metals have these wonderful properties. Some will only harden from repeated pounding like copper and its alloys.
Iron is one of the few emtal that has al of these properties and the additions of different metals and elements will change them. Some steels air harden will some will only oil harden.


Checkout
www.swordforum.com
www.anvilfire.com

[Virtuous]

Virtuous you made a few small mistakes.
Actually that is why the curvature forms. The crystaline structure that forms from rapidly cooling iron and iron carbide molecules is larger tahn that of the slower cooling crystalline structure of the spine.
Yeah I was thinking about that last night after I logged off and was going to investigate it some more today. Thank you for the correction.

Have you heard of a process called flash quenching? They supposedly heat the metal and then nearly instanteously cool it sub zero temperatures? Its suppose to be extremly hard but also extremly resilliant to shattering.

[Cudgel]

No problem, that was one of the things that was bothering when I first got interested in how a katana was made.
Yeah Ive heard about it for something like it. I few of my friends were gonna makes some swords out of 440c stainless steel and then ship them out for that, it never happened. But Im really interested in how well it works, I might save up some moent and send out a knife I made to have that done to it as I botched the heat treat I did to it.

[Teryan]

Thanks for the help, I dont mind books Virtuous (I enjoyed reading that). What happened to those links you were talking about?

@ Cudgel Thanks for the links.

[Virtuous]

Actually they were the same one's as Cudgel's. (well the only ones worth their weight in salt that I could find)

[Korean Ninja]

Dumb post made by a returning troll - BOOM!" He's TOAST!

[bladesmith]

I was instered in how a Katan was made. I heard it takes monder day Katan makers about six weeks with 9 hr days. If you could ponit me in the directino of some web sights or books, I would greatly apprecate it.

Why is the Katan so sharp? I've heard that it is beacuse they fold the metal over and over (making the marks on the sword), that takes the oxygent out.

Thank you for your help.
THERE ARE A COUPLE BOOKS THAT I KNOW OF, THE ART OF BLACKSMITHING BY:ALEX W.BEALER. THE HISTORY OF METALLOGRAPHY IS ANOTHER. THE KATANA IS SO SHARP BECAUSE THEY USE A SERIES OF DIFFERENT FILES AND STONES PLUS THERE OWN SECRET WAYS PASTED DOWN THROUGH THE YEARS.

[chungmoomonkey]

well in making blades if u listen to any1 listen to bladesmith lol

[Charbodan]

If you are looking into this seriously, talk to someone at a ceremics or pottery shop as they will be able to guide you as to what would be the best clay to use if you want to use it in your swordmaking process.

Different clays can handle different amounts of heat within shorts amounts of time. I would suggest a white raku clay as it as it can withstand extremely high temperatures. You don't want to use any generic blend as it may litteraly explode in your hands.

I think a bag of good raku normaly runs arround $7.50 to $12.50.

Good luck.

[Cudgel]

I wouldnt suggest talking to ceramics students or instructors. They know a lot about ceramics and clay as it apllies to ceramics, if you want to know what kind of clay to use talk to people who use clay for that purpose. But if you cant find the info, doubtful as I found some resouces on that but cant remember where, you can always learn the hard way trial and error.

How big of a bag? I can get about 25 pounds of clay for $2. You could also probably dig up clay.

[Charbodan]

How big of a bag? I can get about 25 pounds of clay for $2. You could also probably dig up clay.

I suppose your right, just check out your backyard. :)

I recomended that clay because of it's tolerance for rapid rise to extreme temperatures. Good luck anyway.

[Chilu]

www.bugei.com has info about the forging process of katanas. One thing that makes them so good is how they are quenched(how the steel is cooled in order to harden it). They apply a think amount of clay to the edge that will be sharpened and add more and more as they get toward the dull side. That makes the edge with the least clay cool quicker so it is harder and the back softer. The edge is very hard so it can be sharped and will hold an edge better, and the back is flexible to absorb the shock when you strike. Like someone said, it cuts so well because it is curved. When you strike, you pull it back in kind of a sawing motion(ahh I can't describe it with words :cry: ) to add more power. Like someone else said, the kissaki differs on them too. The kissaki is the the tip of the sword I believe, and some are smaller than others and some are long with only a very gradual slope backwards.

Also, a common misconception about katanas is the folding process. They don't fold the katana 1,000's of times. When they are done folding, there will be like a thousand layers(that is only 10 folds to get to 1,024 layers) or whatever, but after a few folds I don't think it really matters all that much.

[aml01_ph]

They fold the metal lots of times to achieve what is called strain hardening. Basically what it does is cause the stress lines to intersect so that it will not fracture as easily as when unfolded. The more times folded the tougher the material becomes.

[mig29]

I recommend the book: KING, Winston L. Zen and the way of the sword. It has an entire chapter about the making of japanese swords, but it´s a very hard process throught

[Crazymonk]

The end result, they would bathe it in fresh human blood. In the old days, they would take prisoners to be executed and stab them in the gut, right after the samurai is finished. Human blood was the only known substance to collesce the metals to end the sword in perfection.

Sometimes, the prisoners know exactly what was going to happen, so they would grab as many rocks as they can and eat them. When the executioner stabs then, they would hit the rocks in the gut- ruining the sword.

[mig29]

That´s nonsense

[aml01_ph]

The end result, they would bathe it in fresh human blood. In the old days, they would take prisoners to be executed and stab them in the gut, right after the samurai is finished. Human blood was the only known substance to collesce the metals to end the sword in perfection.

Sometimes, the prisoners know exactly what was going to happen, so they would grab as many rocks as they can and eat them. When the executioner stabs then, they would hit the rocks in the gut- ruining the sword.

That is one bloody myth!

Human blood is bad for metal. Blood is like seawater to metals. It makes the metal prone to oxidation, which gives you rust among other things. Why do think kenjutsu has a technique for "flicking" away the blood spatter from the weapon?

I've heard of the sword being tested on bodies, but I remember that it was used on corpses. The sword is cut through several dead bodies to test the sharpness and toughness of the blade. I have doubts about this because getting unmolested corpses in any day and age is impractical (ghoulish too).

[Crazymonk]

I'm only saying what i've been told by a professor on Japanese Martial History.

[Hapkido]

That is one bloody myth!

Human blood is bad for metal. Blood is like seawater to metals. It makes the metal prone to oxidation, which gives you rust among other things. Why do think kenjutsu has a technique for "flicking" away the blood spatter from the weapon?

all the sword styles i can think of (based off the samurai sword that is) involve the motion to clean the blood from the sword. part of is u dont really want to get the guts and crap inside ur scabbard

[davjohns]

There is a video on ebay right now that goes through the whole process. I have seen this video elsewhere as well. dwj

[mig29]

I someone find this video tape please encode it and share with us on the web!

[aml01_ph]

I'm only saying what i've been told by a professor on Japanese Martial History.

What you have been told is not surprising, since the Japanese have a penchant for having a ceremony on almost anything. Japanese sword making techniques have a lot of myths attached to it, which is usually the fault of popular media.

You may have been told this by a professor, but the fact is, such testing techniques are extremely impractical for the following reaons:
1. The swordsmith would have to live in an area near condemned prisoners or corpses.
2. There would have to be a lot of bodies to test one sword. (Where would they get the bodies? From peasants? :eek: )

It is also funny to think that the remarks made to you by this professor (whether true or not) reflects the brutality of the Japanese. One reason why I do not believe in samurai practice practice their bushido (but that is for another thread).

[Crazymonk]

He seems to really know his stuff, i mean, he was born and raised in japan. Unless his "japanese" senseis lied to him or something. You'd think a japanese would know more about japanese. I dont think they would have these types of info publicized.

[CKava]

If you would quote an article or maybe even a name for this japanese professor maybe it would raise the credibility of what your claiming. Incredible claims require incredible evidence...

Incidentally, I heard the Irish ate the hearts of any prisoners they captured back in the 16th Century and no you wont find any information about this in any history books or any other books for that matter because we hardly want that kind of information publicised. But I am Irish and I mean you would think an "Irish" person should know more about the Irish than anyone else... oh yeah and if you ask other Irish people they wont have heard of this because its only because my mates dad is from the "Mc Murphy" Clan that I have this information.

(Sorry about the sarcasm)

[Crazymonk]

If you would quote an article or maybe even a name for this japanese professor maybe it would raise the credibility of what your claiming. Incredible claims require incredible evidence...

Incidentally, I heard the Irish ate the hearts of any prisoners they captured back in the 16th Century and no you wont find any information about this in any history books or any other books for that matter because we hardly want that kind of information publicised. But I am Irish and I mean you would think an "Irish" person should know more about the Irish than anyone else... oh yeah and if you ask other Irish people they wont have heard of this because its only because my mates dad is from the "Mc Murphy" Clan that I have this information.

(Sorry about the sarcasm)

There is a difference of just being Irish and knowing. He is raised in Japan and studied thoroughly to become a professor of Japanese. I dont think you can find what he teaches in textbooks or internet. A lot of professors that i have been taught by in college is from their personal experience rather than sources. It's hard for people to believe, when i just post on a forum, rather than you meet the guy in person and he tells you about it. From what I've been taught, he knows more about japanese than anyone I can think of.

[CKava]

Well in fairness he only seems to know more about 'japanese' than anyone else because you believe what he says above everyone else despite the fact that there seems to be no other corroborating evidence for what he says from any historical studies or for that matter from any other Japanese people... And incidentally what do you mean a professor of 'Japanese'? What exactly does he teach? What university does he teach at? Has he written any books? Is he respected by any other 'Japanese' professors? Answers to some of those questions might make what your saying verifiable- but as it is, it sounds like someone is making up fanciful tales and your eating up... maybe thats not how it is but Im just saying thats how it seems.

(Oh and if you could even provide a web link that would be satisfactory, it doesnt even matter if its in Japanese...)

[Crazymonk]

Well in fairness he only seems to know more about 'japanese' than anyone else because you believe what he says above everyone else despite the fact that there seems to be no other corroborating evidence for what he says from any historical studies or for that matter from any other Japanese people... And incidentally what do you mean a professor of 'Japanese'? What exactly does he teach? What university does he teach at? Has he written any books? Is he respected by any other 'Japanese' professors? Answers to some of those questions might make what your saying verifiable- but as it is, it sounds like someone is making up fanciful tales and your eating up... maybe thats not how it is but Im just saying thats how it seems.

(Oh and if you could even provide a web link that would be satisfactory, it doesnt even matter if its in Japanese...)

He was a professor at CSU Chico for 20 years, 1970-1990. My new Japanese Professor Kimihiko Nomura, started teaching in Chico in 1991, so they never met. I'm not exactly sure if he has written any books, but I'll check when i see him next week. When he was in Chico, he taught Martial Arts, Japanese History, and Japanese.

[aml01_ph]

This is very amusing. Anybody experienced in metal work will tell you the effects of blood on metal. That's why it is not strange to see those samurai clean their swords in films. This is not just because it is their "soul," it is also to care for an invaluable tool of war.

I watched a show about making katanas in National Geographic a while ago. There was nothing in there about killing people to temper a sword. The people interviewed were those who have ben in business of making swords for several generations.

Your "professor" is feeding you a line.

[Zamfoo]

But wait even if blood was good for swords. Don't you want to keep them blood free til you need to. There's always the myth of if a sword that has killed is used for testing it gets bloodthristy and tries to kill the student.

[Crazymonk]

I watched a show about making katanas in National Geographic a while ago. .

Nuff said.

[Crazymonk]

But wait even if blood was good for swords. Don't you want to keep them blood free til you need to. There's always the myth of if a sword that has killed is used for testing it gets bloodthristy and tries to kill the student.

That's ridiculous.

Long before James L. Acord became involved with nuclear science, he worked for a period as a jeweller. He had long had an interest in alchemical practices - was familiar with the writings, not only of Frazer, but of Paracelsus and the sixteenth century metallurgist Vannoccio Biringuccio - and making jewellery gave him an opportunity to incorporate some of them into his own work. Some of these turned of these turn out to have a sound scientific basis. For example, certain alchemical rituals call for the use of blood or semen to 'inoculate' metals when making an alloy: 'You know when you read Beowulf and the Icelandic sagas they talk about the hero's blood-quenched sword, and everybody thought poetic license, right? Blood's extremely rich in nitrogen. And we now purposely dissolve nitrogen in water when we quench steels to make them harder than they would be when they were quenched in brine and pure water. A blood quenched sword is a stronger sword - it's nitrogen quenching.' Modern industrial alloying makes good use of chemical inoculates which are added to the moulds just before the ductile metal is poured in. As it vaporises, it imparts information to the metal which instructs the crystals on the way in which they should arrange themselves as they cool.

[Zamfoo]

Oh wow I was just reflecting on a myth I heard about swords. thanks for the info

[aml01_ph]

That's ridiculous.

Long before James L. Acord became involved with nuclear science, he worked for a period as a jeweller. He had long had an interest in alchemical practices - was familiar with the writings, not only of Frazer, but of Paracelsus and the sixteenth century metallurgist Vannoccio Biringuccio - and making jewellery gave him an opportunity to incorporate some of them into his own work. Some of these turned of these turn out to have a sound scientific basis. For example, certain alchemical rituals call for the use of blood or semen to 'inoculate' metals when making an alloy: 'You know when you read Beowulf and the Icelandic sagas they talk about the hero's blood-quenched sword, and everybody thought poetic license, right? Blood's extremely rich in nitrogen. And we now purposely dissolve nitrogen in water when we quench steels to make them harder than they would be when they were quenched in brine and pure water. A blood quenched sword is a stronger sword - it's nitrogen quenching.' Modern industrial alloying makes good use of chemical inoculates which are added to the moulds just before the ductile metal is poured in. As it vaporises, it imparts information to the metal which instructs the crystals on the way in which they should arrange themselves as they cool.

Even if blood is nitrogen-rich, it is also oxygen and iron-rich (plus the usual mix of water, zinc, magnesium...). When iron oxidizes it becomes rust. This is why blood-quenching is not used as an actual tempering method.

Also, the blood-quenched swords in beowulf does not refer to anything about sword making. It is just used to describe the violence of the time. If a hero has to kill a man (or monster) one after the other to live then you could say his sword would have some "quenching" to do.

Brine contains nitrates as well as salts that is better for hard-quenching than blood.

[Crazymonk]

Even if blood is nitrogen-rich, it is also oxygen and iron-rich (plus the usual mix of water, zinc, magnesium...). When iron oxidizes it becomes rust. This is why blood-quenching is not used as an actual tempering method.

Also, the blood-quenched swords in beowulf does not refer to anything about sword making. It is just used to describe the violence of the time. If a hero has to kill a man (or monster) one after the other to live then you could say his sword would have some "quenching" to do.

Brine contains nitrates as well as salts that is better for hard-quenching than blood.

I forgot to mention, i quoted this from some website. But that was the only thing i found that is pro on blood-quenching. Like that quote said, it is Beowolf "icelandic saga".

To an extent, it does. The iron in our blood is used to carry oxygen from our lungs to the other tissues of the body. To do this, each iron atom is bound to a large, multiringed molecule to form heme. Each heme is, in turn, bound to a subunit of a protein called hemoglobin. There are four of these subunits per hemoglobin protein, so each whole hemoglobin contains four bound iron atoms that allow it to carry four oxygen molecules. In order to bind the heme ring and still have electrons available to bind oxygen, the iron atoms must be oxidized to Fe(II), or ferrous, atoms. That is, the iron in our blood is not metallic iron, but is already oxidized ("rusted") before it even sees oxygen. As it binds oxygen in the lungs, the ferrous iron atom donates an electron and becomes a Fe(III), or ferric, atom.

[aml01_ph]

I forgot to mention, i quoted this from some website. But that was the only thing i found that is pro on blood-quenching. Like that quote said, it is Beowolf "icelandic saga".

To an extent, it does. The iron in our blood is used to carry oxygen from our lungs to the other tissues of the body. To do this, each iron atom is bound to a large, multiringed molecule to form heme. Each heme is, in turn, bound to a subunit of a protein called hemoglobin. There are four of these subunits per hemoglobin protein, so each whole hemoglobin contains four bound iron atoms that allow it to carry four oxygen molecules. In order to bind the heme ring and still have electrons available to bind oxygen, the iron atoms must be oxidized to Fe(II), or ferrous, atoms. That is, the iron in our blood is not metallic iron, but is already oxidized ("rusted") before it even sees oxygen. As it binds oxygen in the lungs, the ferrous iron atom donates an electron and becomes a Fe(III), or ferric, atom.

You make some interesting points but you seem to have neglected the iron (or steel) of the sword itself. Using blood as tempering medium means that you are giving more oppurtunity for the corruption of the sword's heat treatment. I don't think there is anymore cold treatment for the weapon and "washing" it in blood is unlikely to have beneficial effects.

Besides, even if blood is used for metal treatment while the sword is hot, the purity of the metal would be compromised. Blood sticks, unlike water, oil or brine. When blood is used as quench, you cannot be sure of the quality of your steel anymore. And if what another post here says is true about the quality of Japanese iron (poor), would you think this is practical for the smith who spent hours (maybe even days), hammering and folidng the metal?

The main problem I have with the internet is that it so easy to make a website, put anything on it and pass it off as truth. Nitrogen quenching may be good, but the nitrogen in blood is hardly worth it.

[Crazymonk]

You make some interesting points but you seem to have neglected the iron (or steel) of the sword itself. Using blood as tempering medium means that you are giving more oppurtunity for the corruption of the sword's heat treatment. I don't think there is anymore cold treatment for the weapon and "washing" it in blood is unlikely to have beneficial effects.

Besides, even if blood is used for metal treatment while the sword is hot, the purity of the metal would be compromised. Blood sticks, unlike water, oil or brine. When blood is used as quench, you cannot be sure of the quality of your steel anymore. And if what another post here says is true about the quality of Japanese iron (poor), would you think this is practical for the smith who spent hours (maybe even days), hammering and folidng the metal?

The main problem I have with the internet is that it so easy to make a website, put anything on it and pass it off as truth. Nitrogen quenching may be good, but the nitrogen in blood is hardly worth it.

Have you tried it? Well you seem to know the effect of blood quenching so well, i have never heard of any refutations in any sources, besides from other people. I personally never tried it myself, but it sounds interesting.

Even though it may sound hokey pokey, there is really nothing to disprove it in any grounds.

[shootodog]

funny. a canadian friend of mine said that that is how they got the damascus patterns on the blade- by stabbing it into slaves and prisoners.

as for the katana, i used to have pictures of an old japanese text that detailed the testing of a new weapon on corpses of criminals. it had diagrams of where to cut, and what stroke to use.

hmmm...

[CKava]

Testing on corpses I can buy in fact several people have already made reference to it earlier in this thread but batheing the balde in fresh human blod still sounds a bit ridiculous to me. It sounds like one of those "He would bathe in the blood of a hundred virgins" stories...

Oh and "Even though it may sound hokey pokey, there is really nothing to disprove it in any grounds." I think the complete lack of any corroborating evidence from any other historian either Japanese or not might count as grounds to disprove something. I could make a claim like I previously suggested "The Irish used to eat their prisoners hearts" then I can back it up by saying I heard from a reliable source and then deny anyone providing evidence this doesnt happen by saying "yeah well they wouldnt want information like this publicized would they?". Surely the fact that apparently nobody except your friends dad is aware of this practice seems to suggest it might be wrong? It is supposed to be a historical fact so you would think there should be some historical evidence to back it up.

[Crazymonk]

Yes, Damascus was one of few i heard of quenching swords in prisoner's bloods. About the text, I've been told it was living prisoners, not corpses.

Ckava, try telling non-christians about the resurrection if Jesus, there are those who follow and those who wont. Same situation here.

I truly cant back it up in any form because I got it from a professor, but it's not like he makes it sound like it is magical or impossible, and for a fact it isnt. Some things in life, you may not be able to back up.
In one case, during the Khmer Rouge Regime in Cambodia, thousands of refugees fled to Thailand to ensure safety. These camps were backed up by the UN, who started the refugee program in thailand, so the anti-Cambodian Thais would help out these Cambodians. Hundreds were denied admission and were SENT BACK into the mine fields and most lost their lives, wandering to their miserable fate. This act however, was never published in any historical texts, but only few Cambodians know about this. I myself is one of few to know the truth. Tell it to the Thai's or UN inspectors, they would say it is ludicrous. But they can burn in hell. :woo:

[CKava]

Well for a start if I was trying to explain to someone about Jesus' resurrection I could show thousands of books were it is mentioned, probably hundreds of books were it is specifically discussed, a worldwide organisation that states unequivocally that it happened with millions of members and also thousands of books debating whether or not such an event occured and the credibility of the sources involved. This I might add wouldnt prove at all whether or not the actual event occured but it would certainly prove that it is something that quite a few people believe and their is acadmeic debate about.

Which is quite different from what you would be able to do if you tried to explain to someone about swords being bathed in blood... And incidentally I wouldn't keep using the fact that he is a professor as any sort of evidence that he is credible- given that you refuse to accept that no other professors seem to support his claim. If it is simply the fact that he is a 'Japanese professor' that makes him credible, then the fact that a couple of hundred 'Japanese professors' would disagree with him would mean that he is wrong.

Having faith really has little to do with facts- if its a fact, faith isn't required. However, if it is a statement that can't ever be backed up then it requires faith. tTe thing is though, if there is no proof then it isn't a fact, its a claim and until any proof is provided for a claim I think its about as substancial as my claim that "Im the best fighter in the world"- if I never back it up it doesnt mean a hell of alot does it? And Im aware that historical accounts arent infallible but thats why Im asking you to provide any evidence for what your saying, if this professor guy is claiming that all the official history is wrong- why is their no deabte about it?

And not all historians agree by the way, Ive read quite different accounts on Hirohito's involvement in WWII for instance but the fact is that when people question previous assumptions they provide evidence to show why the old assumptions are wrong, your not really doing this... IF this blood batheing did in fact occur you would expect more than one person would know about it.

[aml01_ph]

Have you tried it? Well you seem to know the effect of blood quenching so well, i have never heard of any refutations in any sources, besides from other people. I personally never tried it myself, but it sounds interesting.

Even though it may sound hokey pokey, there is really nothing to disprove it in any grounds.

Actually I have. An uncle of mine visited a friend who was in the smithing business. My uncle's friend usually made bolos.

I accidentally spilled pig blood on a hot blade he was working on. My uncle got angry, but his friend was calm about it. He said the metal was ruined and he had to reheat it again to burn the blood off. Crazymonk, if this professor of yours asked those who make these weapons, maybe he would get a different answer.

I have also heard of the "body testing" but this was done when the sword has already been formed not while hot. "Washing" the blade in blood will only tarnish the polish of the blade.

[Crazymonk]

Actually I have. An uncle of mine visited a friend who was in the smithing business. My uncle's friend usually made bolos.

I accidentally spilled pig blood on a hot blade he was working on. My uncle got angry, but his friend was calm about it. He said the metal was ruined and he had to reheat it again to burn the blood off. Crazymonk, if this professor of yours asked those who make these weapons, maybe he would get a different answer.

I have also heard of the "body testing" but this was done when the sword has already been formed not while hot. "Washing" the blade in blood will only tarnish the polish of the blade.

Aml01, Not pigs blood, only fresh human blood.

Ckava, i dont want to type so much, so i'll just say, I've met the professor again, and he said that it was made between 1500-1700. Didnt want to sound so intrusive, but assertive. Yes, but you have to start sometime with the arguement of Quenching blood(maybe not so well in the internet).

I know that i may be pushing things a bit, and I know how i would react to such claims, but this will forever(or how long you can remember) be a part of you're questionable inquiries. Maybe, just maybe, someday, the whole art of blood-quenching would be documented and revealed- you will remember me. But this is only up to you to believe, whenever i get more grounds, or attestation, i will update it.

[CKava]

IF the 'art' of blood quenching ever becomes documented I will indeed remember this discussion, but Im definitely not holding my breath...

[Romantic]

I was instered in how a Katan was made. I heard it takes monder day Katan makers about six weeks with 9 hr days. If you could ponit me in the directino of some web sights or books, I would greatly apprecate it.

Why is the Katan so sharp? I've heard that it is beacuse they fold the metal over and over (making the marks on the sword), that takes the oxygent out.

Thank you for your help.
Don't bother making one. Give up before you begin.

[aml01_ph]

Aml01, Not pigs blood, only fresh human blood.

I just went to the provinces to spend this past Holy Week. I met with that smith again and tested your theory on a bit of scrap. The metal was just a bar 1 cm thick (width is also 1 cm) and 2 inches long so it was an acceptable donation.

We heated it red hot and we dipped a portion in blood from a small container. The blood came from a cut from my finger and his(its amazing that you can fill a small cup using an insignificant cut. The result.....?

Pockmarks on the iron dipped in bar.

Try it yourself if you don't believe.

NOTE: The smith told me that if I came back with such notions I had better buy something.

[Crazymonk]

I just went to the provinces to spend this past Holy Week. I met with that smith again and tested your theory on a bit of scrap. The metal was just a bar 1 cm thick (width is also 1 cm) and 2 inches long so it was an acceptable donation.

We heated it red hot and we dipped a portion in blood from a small container. The blood came from a cut from my finger and his(its amazing that you can fill a small cup using an insignificant cut. The result.....?

Pockmarks on the iron dipped in bar.

Try it yourself if you don't believe.

NOTE: The smith told me that if I came back with such notions I had better buy something.

I'm surprised you pursued your cause to the point of severing your own flesh. Though your story incontestably seems dubious- much correlative to my own, thanks for the effort and response.

COOL, I made 2 people i never met before bleed. Muahahaha!(jk) :)

[aml01_ph]

I'm surprised you pursued your cause to the point of severing your own flesh. Though your story incontestably seems dubious- much correlative to my own, thanks for the effort and response.

COOL, I made 2 people i never met before bleed. Muahahaha!(jk) :)

Considering some of the risky training some of us undergo, a cut to the finger is just a small thing (ouch!). You are welcome to experiment if you want. You can even use pig's blood form your local butcher.

*sigh* :rolleyes:

I DREW BLOOD! :yeleyes: :mad: :yeleyes:

[Muad'ib3626]

i imagine that the clay you dig up in your yard will be some what different than what they can dig up in Japan.

i've done a bit of study and looking around about how to make a katana and so far, everything seems to match what i found out. but i never could find anything on the polishing/sharpening of a blade...

we've covered just about every aspect of making the sword, but nothing on the sheathe or hilt. could someone give me a rundown on those? does anybody know how to do it right?

[Cudgel]

You take the finished blade and trace its shape on two pieces of wood and carve out enough for the blade to fit. Cuting off enough for the handle and then you glue the pieces together. I beleive Japanese scabbard makers use a glue made from boiled rice. THe rest or teh fittings I cant rember.

[MattKing]

Quick question..CrazyMonk, wasnt it you whos Sensei (or friends dad) could do 20 punches a second or something? sorry if theres a mistaken identity.. If it IS you however dont you think a lot of your posts tend to end up being rather controversial?! LOL

[Anthony Shore]

actually, from the point at which the basic blade shape is finished, the polising process takes approximately 120 HOURS to complete. The process starts obviously by using a sharpening stone to create the basic edge and the successively finer grades of stones are used until you have a paperthin stone used on your thumb to complete.

This is a link to a very good article "Polished Steel, The Art of the Japanese Sword." A Lecture given at London University, December 6, 1996 By Kenji Mishina. http://www.galatia.com/~fer/sword/mishina/lecture.html

[Anthony Shore]

Ok, the simplistic explaination is the best at this point. the Katana is an excellent cutting tool, the forge process simplified is this, a rigid outer sheath of relatively high carbon content is folded 12-15 times...this distributes the carbon and other remaining impurities evenly along the length of the blade as to not make any one spot weak from an impurity. the final fold is done over a softer inner core of high grade iron or low grade steel...the result in resiliency. a high carbon edge is then "welded" on (no, not with a welding torch) to the main body of the blade. the whole thing is coated in a clay "mixture" (ash, clay, straw and other things that smith cooked up) and left to cool...the edge is given a lighter coat than the spine and tends to cool quiker because of this. The curvature of the blade is a natural reaction of the cooling process.

Things a Katana cannot do: A Katana cannot cut through bars of steel, machine gun barrells, tank armor or for that matter, any substance that is "harder" than the blade itself. It is NOT indistructable, it will bend and it will break.

Things a Katana CAN do: A Katana can cut very cleanly through flesh, with some degree of resistance through bone and with difficulty through armor. The jury is still out on the Katana vs. Rapier debate.

and oh by the way...depending on how the weapon is worn determines what it is called. If it is worn through a belt/sash with the blade edge facing up, it's a Katana, if worn hanging from the belt with the edge facing down...it's a Tachi. regardless of the fact that essentially, it's the same weapon.

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

http://www.aikido.cz.pl/EN/sword.html

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/japb/hd_japb.htm

[Anthony Shore]

Don't bother making one. Give up before you begin.

good advice...there are approximately 350 trained and liscenced swordsmiths in Japan who are qualified to forge in the tradtional manner. as for folding the metal...that was a technique used to regulate and evenly distribute the carbon content throughout the length of the blade. the number of folds was usually not more than 15 and if you do the math, 15 folds will give you 32,768 layers of steel...you could fold more than that but remember, each fold drives out needed materials and also makes the layers thinner with each successive fold. too many folds will result in a basically "foldless" homogenized steel with little structural integrity.

The Japanese did not actually begin using this technique until roughly the beginning of the 8th century A.D.. This is a full 200 years after the Vikings were using a similar technique called pattern-welding.

http://www.templ.net/who_is_patrick_barta.php

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html

http://www.techfak.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/def_en/kap_5/advanced/t5_1_1.html

[Anth]

Good posts Anthony :)

[Anthony Shore]

Good posts Anthony :)

Thanks Gaskell...There is so much "myth" and "misinformation" floating around out there, I just want to contribute to the "knowledge" pool with as much good data and solid research as I can.

[Anthony Shore]

i imagine that the clay you dig up in your yard will be some what different than what they can dig up in Japan.

i've done a bit of study and looking around about how to make a katana and so far, everything seems to match what i found out. but i never could find anything on the polishing/sharpening of a blade...

we've covered just about every aspect of making the sword, but nothing on the sheathe or hilt. could someone give me a rundown on those? does anybody know how to do it right?

Try these links "mouse shadow". Sometimes doing a web search you have to think very simplistically. I did a search on "japanese sword polishing" and came up with these...I hope they are helpful.

http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/togishi.htm

http://home.att.net/~hofhine/

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

http://www.galatia.com/~fer/sword/

http://www.swordforum.com/swords/nihonto/togi.html

http://www.summerchild.com/summer.html

http://www.aquastoneinc.com/sharpening_stones.htm

[Anthony Shore]

Dumb post made by a returning troll - BOOM!" He's TOAST!
aw man! I wanted to see the dumb post by the returning troll...I like canon fodder.

[Anthony Shore]

funny. a canadian friend of mine said that that is how they got the damascus patterns on the blade- by stabbing it into slaves and prisoners.

as for the katana, i used to have pictures of an old japanese text that detailed the testing of a new weapon on corpses of criminals. it had diagrams of where to cut, and what stroke to use.

hmmm...

Okey dokey...now I have to step in and make a "myth" correction. What we commonly refer to as Damascus steel is actually Pattern welded steel and the process for making such has "NOTHING" to do with stabbing ANYTHING other than a bucket of brine or very warm water for "quenching". Pattern welding, the technique used by the Vikings as early as the 6th century A.D. was done by "stacking" varius grades of iron and steel "strips" together and "heat welding" them into a "billet". This billet was then drawn out by hammaring until it was the basic length of the blade you were forging. you would then take 3-4 of these drawn out billets and twist them in whatever patterns pleased you and then heat weld them together. Finally, a straight laminate edge was forged and wrapped around the outer edge of the other billets and the whole thing was then heat welded together, flattened out and shaped. a "fuller" was ground into the center and down the length of the blade to lighten and simultaneously strengthen the blade. After quenching and tempering, an edge was ground and sharpened. the blade was treated with an acidic solution such as vinegar to bring out the "pattern" of the blade. The blade was then polished and given a final sharpening after a handle had been crafted and fitted.

True "Damascus" is a produced by smelting in a "crucible" and the "pattern" that is derived is a result of the impurities within the steel itself and again, has nothing to do with stabbing of anyone, live or dead.

I enjoy conversations regarding ancient weapons but when the conversations are based on "my uncles, brothers, cousins, Sensei said blah blah blah" and is not based on any actual research, I tend to get a little fussy.

Any statement that begins with "I heard or, the legend goes" or you heard from a friend of a friend of a friend and, cannot be backed up by hard core, reputable data, should not be made.

http://www.vikingsword.com/serpent.html

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html

http://www.bronksknifeworks.com/historical.htm

[Anthony Shore]

Another reason the edge is so hard and durable is the way it is shaped. There is no sharp 35-45 degree bezel on the edge. The edge is slowly tapered from the top to the botom. This process is called polishing and is another art in it's self.

The forging and polishing of these blades can take months and costs 1000's and 10,1000s of dollars. To me each one is a beautiful piece of art with 100's of hours and a ton of the artisans blood and sweat goes into these. They are truly small treasures.

This kind of turned into a small primer on smithing and metalergy, I get on a roll some times. Sorry for the novel :)

sorry to burst your bubble Virtuous... Forging of the blade and polishing does not take months Virtuous...an excellent blade can be forged in a day or two and the sharpening/polishing process can take up to 120 hours to complete and is begun by "roughing" an edge onto the blade and then using successively finer stones until the finest grade stone being used is a paper-thin stone the size of your thumb.

Articles on sword polishing:

http://www.galatia.com/~fer/sword/mishina/lecture.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/togishi.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/hada.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/hadori.htm

General site on pretty much "everything" involving the japanese sword:

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

.

[Anth]

Anthony - please remember that this thread has been running for nearly 10 months and some members who previously posted in it have moved on, have forgotten about the thread, or in one case, been banned, so some of your replies may fall on deaf-ears ;)

[Cudgel]

aii but hes ben posting links to info...so maybe it should be a sticky so we dont end up haing having umpteen bajillion kanta making threads...like we have with fave weapons.
HINT HINT.............. :rolleyes:

[Anth]

Cudgel - When I get time, I am going to do a links thread (I'm sure I did one somewhere before), but I've got a bit of work on writing things for easy-tek (www.easy-tek.com). Should be done ASAP, and that will be a sticky, so fear not :)

[Cudgel]

Coolness. Although I do not rember a links thread.
I think there should also probably be a FAQ made as well, although Im not sure what should be in it.

[Anthony Shore]

Anthony - please remember that this thread has been running for nearly 10 months and some members who previously posted in it have moved on, have forgotten about the thread, or in one case, been banned, so some of your replies may fall on deaf-ears ;)

That's Ok Gaskell...even if the original posters have moved on, as Domenico pointed out, other people still read the thread and it would be a shame for some other poster to come along and read something that has incorrect data and pass it along without getting the real scoop. directing the post to the originaly poster at this point is somewhat irrelevant...it general knowledge directed to the general populous at large.

[adouglasmhor]

In viking and germanic style pattern welding the steel was sometimes purified/hardened at the smelting forging to a billet stage, not with blood but with chicken manure as a source of nitrates, so I supose any organic fertiliser type gear , manure. dried blood, fishmeal etc would do for this part of the forging, not for the blade or six smithing.

[Anthony Shore]

In viking and germanic style pattern welding the steel was sometimes purified/hardened at the smelting forging to a billet stage, not with blood but with chicken manure as a source of nitrates, so I supose any organic fertiliser type gear , manure. dried blood, fishmeal etc would do for this part of the forging, not for the blade or six smithing.

Excellent point! could you provide more data on that however? I would be interested in seeing some documentation on that process.

[Cudgel]

I read somewhere, i forget where sadly, that the Norse used powdered bones in either the smelting or forging proccess.

[Domenico]

"...Norse used powdered bones in either the smelting or forging proccess..."

I don't know anything about the Norse process in particular, but bone charcoal is the most common source for Carbon when case hardening. You pack the metal in the powdered charcoal, bring it up to it's critical range where the Carbon goes into solution, and hold it there for several hours. The idea is that you are making a hardenable steel coating on iron or a low carbon steel.

Nobody is really sure when Case hardening became a definable process, but the smiths were definitely aware that holding the blade at a red heat above the coal or charcoal would absorb more carbon, and was used to correct the alloy mix of the steel when you had inadvertantly burned off too much carbon.

Matthew

[fast-edge]

Hi , my name is Patrick
Katanas are made of 2 distinctive kinds of metals . Both are high in iron content but only one of them is made of high levels of carbon . First , the metal that makes the shape of the sword is folded on itself many times (at least 16 times) . At the very last fold , a hight carbon steel bar is inserted in betwen the last fold . This "bar" become the edge. If you look closely on a well made Katana , you can see a uneven line along the edge . The line marking the 2 different kind of metal is call the "hamon".

The blade is heated to a bright yellow in a forging oven and then the blade is diped in water with the sharp edge facing up . If this step is done properly the blade will curve down by itself as the metal that touches the water first will shrink faster than the rest .

This is the way Katanas get their so reputable curves. This is the basic of making a Katana.
Hope I could help .

[Cudgel]

Erm its rather funny the way you prhsed your post.

YEs a katana is made of metals that have a high amount of iron in them, this metal is actually an alloy of Iron and iron carbide hence it having a high amount of iron in it. This alloy is also more commonly refered to as steel or carbon steel or even high carbon steel.
There are several ways of making a katana blade one of which is softer steel welded to a harder steel and folded but there are also soft iron core with a harder steel jacket weleded to it in a variety of didferent ways.

And thre reason that a katan curves is not becasue the metal being cooled faster is shrinking Quiet teh opposite. The rapidly cooling portoion of the sword is the hardest part of teh sword and is the outside of the curve. It curves because as it cools the iron and iron carbides change the structure of teh crystaline matrix taht makes up that part of teh sword. That being as it cools more rapidly the crystals form a harder but larger structure while the slower cooling spine will contract becasues the crystals have more time to contract inwards on themselves.

So your post is half right.
Welcome to MAP

[fast-edge]

I suppose your right, just check out your backyard. :)

I recomended that clay because of it's tolerance for rapid rise to extreme temperatures. Good luck anyway.
Thank to everyone for all information re:Katana making . If i'm able to get a forging oven and a better knowlege of all matal involving the fabrication of Japanese sword , I will certenly take this hobby to a defferent level.

As of right now , i'm making my decorative sword with long "chain saw "bars as it is a very light stell ,will not bent and as a decent level hardenes to be able to sustain a decent sharp edge . I started to do my own Katana because the real sword are very expensive and the affordable sword sold in store are very cheaply made. I would never have the audasity to pretent that i make awesome sword but for me , for right now , it is a enjoyable hobby that keep me out of trouble .

[Cudgel]

its a forge not a forgeing oven. You only use ovens to bake food.
And there are books on the subject of making swords and quite a few dealing with the making of a katana.
My adivce is to start out small with knives or maybe axe heads. I know that in Japan those whoa re apretenced to a swordsmith start out making knives.
I hope you have fun , I wish I had a forge I used to a aweseom with a hammer.

[Charbodan]

Sorry from my earlier reply, must have been coming down off the caffiene:)

Heres another nice link from www.jpsword.com

Has some interesting information and clear pictures.

http://www.jpsword.com/files/swordmaking/sword-making.html

Oops Edit: only after posting this, I noticed there was a sword link sticky, I have posted it up there.