Earn more black belts or press on for higher Dans

[slart]

Hey Guys,

I have a poll for you. After you have gotten you first dan in one martial art should you switch to another or press on to the second dan?

I have been here a couple of times. The first time was in Tae Kwon Do. After I got my black, I left in under a year because I felt my instructor had nothing more to teach me. The second time was in Aikido. Pretty much the same story, got bored, didn't learn anything new and left. I am now getting close to the black belt equivalent in an african martial art and now I am getting itchy feet again and want to give submission wrestling and thai boxing a go.

So my question is to those who have pressed on to the second Dan. Was it worth it, or is time to learn something new?

[Anth]

im nowhere near a black belt yet and im speaking from what ive seen of the black belts in our club. our black belts keep going up through the dans and theyre learning the advanced katas in our style. i think ill do the same when i get my black belt.

[Guerilla Fists]

Our style teaches you seven styles. After you get your first black it's like starting at white all over again since you begin a different animal.

[Kwajman]

After 3.5 years, I still know so little about TKD that I can't imagine going to another art and try to start it.

[Ghost Frog]

I'm not too bothered about grading higher and higher, but I do want to keep learning. Ju jitsu is a very wide-ranging art, so there are lots of different areas to examine more closely- pressure points, throwing, groundwork, locks, weapons...

I do intend to crosstrain in something else eventually, but I keep having little projects pop up.

[Poop-Loops]

I have 2 plans that I'm thinking about right now. 1 is to switch from TKD to a grappling art when my contract is over, and another is to do it when I get to 4th or so Dan. The reason for wanting to switch is because I'm not sure whether TKD is for me. But I don't want to switch becuase the dojang and instructors are great.

You just have to see what you want more. Learn advanced techniques in your style, or learn something totally different, but start from the basics again?

PL

[Andrew Green]

Do what you enjoy...

After 4 years of basketball should you stick with it or find another sport cause your not going to improve much further?

[Shaolin Dragon]

Why do you need to switch? It is possible to study more than one MA at once.

Apart from anything else, IMO you could never learn everything a MA has to teach you.

[Topher]

When i do reach BB/1st Dan i plan to study another art, while continuing in my current art.

[Ad McG]

Originally posted by slart
Hey Guys,

I have a poll for you. After you have gotten you first dan in one martial art should you switch to another or press on to the second dan?

I have been here a couple of times. The first time was in Tae Kwon Do. After I got my black, I left in under a year because I felt my instructor had nothing more to teach me. The second time was in Aikido. Pretty much the same story, got bored, didn't learn anything new and left. I am now getting close to the black belt equivalent in an african martial art and now I am getting itchy feet again and want to give submission wrestling and thai boxing a go.

So my question is to those who have pressed on to the second Dan. Was it worth it, or is time to learn something new?


McDojos anybody?!? A black belt in anything achieved in under a year isn't worth the cloth it's made of in my eyes, unless you're training like 5 days a week for hours a day. Find a good dojo and do something like JKD, so you get the mix, and it's more likely to be a real challenge. A black belt is just the beginning.

[Virtuous]

I believe you really should dedicate yourself to one art and after a first dan, maybe go out and test the waters of other arts but continue to train in your primary art.
But if it makes you happy studying one art till you get a dan and wiping the slate and starting all over again more power to you. Happiness is key.

[slart]

Adam writes: "A black belt in anything achieved in under a year isn't worth the cloth it's made of in my eyes"

Err, that is not what I meant. In both cases I had trained for about 3 - 4 years before I was eligible to grade for my black belt grading. What I had found was that about a year AFTER the black belt grading I had almost hit the limits of my chief instructor's knowledge. It was like I was facing the law of diminishing returns, where I felt I was training lots and lots and learning less and less.

Many years ago a concert pianist once said to me that you should change your piano teacher every so often, because if you will stay with the one teacher too long it will ultimately limit you. This statement resonated with me, but I found it went beyond teacher and even emcopassed style. I have trained with other TKD club as well as a aikido clubs after I hit black. In both cases I had the same sinking feeling of diminshing returns, so I swapped styles to get a fresh perspective. Both TKD and Aikido have good lessons to teach, but are ultimately limited by the chief instructor's devotion to Choi's or Uesheba's vision. Most JKD are also ultimately limited by Bruce Lee worship.

I started this pole just to see what the "common school of thought is". I guess I must be in a minority of 1. The great majority of people seem to think that you should just keep at perfecting the one style under the one chief instructor.

[Ad McG]

Ah right ok, I get it now :D

The JKD thing about Bruce Lee isn't really true though. Although he is the person who started the whole philosophy, and they do look upto him and his ways, most JKD clubs advance in their own way and take their own path, such is the idea of JKD. Some bring in more BJJ or shootfighting, some focus more on kali stuff etc. I could go on. The point is, to me JKD is a mixture and allows you to select what works for you from a broader spectrum than just one art and that seems to be what you are looking for. You have a much wider spectrum than if you just trained under one system. You are free to study other systems, and take what you want from them if it works for you. Jun Fan is the beginning, and that is hard enough, but when you start looking at other aspects as most JKD clubs do, you realise that the world is your oyster.
Although it is a much more complicated and constant process of finding what works for you, it seems as though you are quite dedicated and this sort of cross-training could be beneficial. The fact that the base of knowledge for JKD is endless also helps, and you will only be limited by your dojo or your own willingness to learn from supplementary training if you took it up. I definitely suggest having a look at a good certified JKD dojo if there is one near you.

[David]

Originally posted by Gaskell
our black belts keep going up through the dans and theyre learning the advanced katas in our style. i think ill do the same when i get my black belt.
There are katas beyond black belt? I thought BB was completion of the system?

Rgds,
David

[slart]

Believe it or not there is life after black belt, yes you two can learn even more katas. It is all part of a cunning business plan by instructors to get more grading fees out of their students, even though 10 more katas won't actually make you a better fighter. Shhh, keep it a secret though, you wouldn't want the students finding out ;-)

[Andrew Green]

Why set black as the goal?

Why not green or brown? maybe 2nd black?

Why not just move on when you feel you need a change regardless of current rank?

[Disciple]

I think that you should continueally train in your art, or arts, I mean, you can always work on become more perfected. and as far as advnacing... you learn nice little tidbits and stuff as you get older, wiser, and more advanced.

[kobudo_tob]

When/f I get my black belt in Okinawan Kobudo next month, I shall continue - it is a hell of a lot more fun. No pressure from my students to go for gradings, so I can just relax and start learning for to hit people with even bigger, pointier sticks. (oh, and maybe the odd hoe as well)

[iElix]

My instructor says getting your BB is like ending an apprenticeship. that you have reached a point were you know all the basics in every field and are able to perform them seamlessly. After that you work towards your mastery (using the term lightly)

So yea you work for years to attain your apprentice. Its kinda depressing but there is more to learn it all depends on your instructor.
:D

just my 2c

[47Ronin]

Just do what you can and dont set your mind on a belt- just strive to be the best you can be.

[stump]

A black belt signifies completion of a syllabus. No syllabus is custom designed for every person. Any formal syllabus will inevitably leave holes in your knowledge. It's better to be able to draw from wherever to fill your own personal gaps. The best way to find and fill those gaps is to spar with a wide range of people who you can then learn from.

[Shou Tu]

Our style teaches you seven styles. After you get your first black it's like starting at white all over again since you begin a different animal.

Yes as well Our masters have never stopped teaching our art to us but have gone and trained with other arts and gotten black belts in them as well. but again never stopped teaching the original they started teaching.

Salute,

[craigwarren]

A black belt signifies completion of a syllabus. No syllabus is custom designed for every person. Any formal syllabus will inevitably leave holes in your knowledge. It's better to be able to draw from wherever to fill your own personal gaps. The best way to find and fill those gaps is to spar with a wide range of people who you can then learn from.

Thats a pretty broad and sweeping statement you have there. if a blackbelt is the completion of a syllabus then why does nearly every belt ranked art have multiple levels of black belt?

Im unable to speak for every art, no one is, but in TKD you continue to not only learn new Patterns (kata) after BB but you learn new techniques and are required to learn new skills aswell.

BB is not a completion, its just another step up the ladder.

[Kwan Jang]

-Some cirriculums are very bottom heavy and there really is little new material after 1st dan. I feel that if you are not making progress, first look to yourself (there usually is still quite a bit you can learn if you are creative in your approach), but there sometimes is a point of diminished returns and you may have got all the value you can from a particular school or instructor (though it would be wrong IMO to generalize that to any particular art).
-I was brought up in an enviroment in which my instructors not only encouraged cross training, but required it for more advanced levels. They have for decades brought in teachers from other systems to work with us. They also encouraged the advanced students and instructors to branch out into other systems and if we found something of mutual value, to share it.
-I now have instructors credentials or black belts in ten different systems and master level in three. I could easily get more if I wanted to, but that is not, and never really has been my emphasis. To me, the principles and, for the most part, techniques of most systems are pretty much the same. The main differences occur in strategy and application. I like TKD for it's versatility in kicking; JJ for it's combat orientation and grappling; American Kenpo for it's compounding of attacks; Escrima for it's flow and knife work; Modern Arnis for it's use of sticks (espescially in conjunction with joint locks); Judo for it's throws, sweeps and chokes; Muay Thai for it's loading of the hips, putting one's whole body into the strikes for added power, and most of all it's simplicity. Tai Chi Chuan appeals to me both for it's internal aspects and that it helps me to learn better relaxation. Hapkido to me was in some ways one of the first MMA's. I like it for it's pressure point work and joint manipulations. Finally, CDT gives me a way to deal with a violent situation without having to damage someone, and helps me to defend my assets when the guys' lawyer comes looking for me later. (Forget about his brothers with baseball bats, lawyers can really be scary.) If I see anything of value in another system that would add to my base, then I would probably set a new goal to add that as well. Or even more likely, my instructor will get on a new kick for all his higher dans and try to get us off our rears and out of our comfort zones again.

[Musashi Kyo]

Kind of a trick question, But I voted Stay with one or first arts until highest Dan, but what about learning another aspect of combat such as stand up or grappling thats hard to pass up if your art doesnt suit that aspect of fighting.

[Xianghua]

It seems to me that it would take a life time to master any one style. For me, if I want to learn seven beasts I'm going to have to be around Shou Shu for a long time. Not very many people make it to dragon, but it's a goal I would love to accomplish.

[Din]

in my opinion there is never nothing more you can learn... constantly bettering your techniques, polishing your skills and learning new things is what being a bb is all about... now dont get me wrong i totally support cross training. if i had the time i would join another MA but i would still press on with tkd and try to go as high as i can.
if bb is the completion of the system why in the world do we have grandmasters ( 8 dan , 9 dan ....) and the rest ( 2 dan - 7 dan).
but i dont think one should be a jake of all trades but a master of none.

[stump]

True you can always perfect something.

The question is do you want to make a slight difference on top of something you already know or do you want to considerably improve yourself by broadening your knowledge base?

Personally I'm quite happy trying to be a jack of all trades cos then at least I know I'm not leaving any bases uncovered. I can always focus on each area individually without sacrificing the others and gradually becoma a better all round fighter. At the same time attempting to fill in any holes I find along the way -from whoever is the best teacher I can find in that area.

People use the term Jack of all trades like its a derogatory term. Properly done the JOAT philosophy is the way to go. The term master is overused however - many people considering themselves masters are nothing but ********ters

[Pepsi32123]

I will switch arts after I get a car and some money, but I won't quit one. I'd master one, and then I'd get a feel for others.

[shootodog]

i like being well rounded.

[Twimyo Jirugi]

I'm planning on having got my 2nd Degree in TKD (hopefully :D) to start Jeet Kune Do or possibly Ninjutsu and earn a 1st Degree in that, but I'm not gonna leave TKD, no way no how. After I get the 1st Degree in that (and hopefully I'll have time for a 3rd in TKD :D) I'm off to some Kung Fu, maybe Lau Gar or Shaolin. Then? Who knows......

[gamedweeb]

In Kwon Shu it seems like there is somewhat of a theme for what you're supposed to be learning at least up to 3rd degree.

Up to 1st: Basics, strikes, kicks, froms (mostly from shotokan), defenses, simple power generation principles, linear movement seems to be emphisised, weapons are also taught, chucks, sticks, staff, sais.

1st: More complex combinations, as well as principles of application, more circular movement is taught. I think more complex staff forms are taught.

2nd: Seems like more vital targets are emphisised as well as more grappling, the knife is introduced as well as kamas I believe.

3rd: This is a major milestone you get to wear a black gi, you also start learning combative staff, get to start learning to use a Katana.

Beyond that I don't really know, I know that there really isn't an end to ranks you can earn in the system. Master Lawrence (head of the system) is a 7th degree, he doesn't seem too concerned with have stripes on his belt. Durring belt promotions there's a line about the learning journey never ending (cheessy, but it conveys a lot).

So yeah I'm intending on staying with Kwon Shu for a long time.

[the hunting fly]

Lol, first of all I can't imagine getting a black belt in 3 or 4 years. At my dojo it takes you around 10 years to get anywhere near black belt.
At this rate I'll probably finish uni and have to move house and so be unable to continue in my style before I get to blackbelt because my style isn't widely taught in Australia and because I might move overseas to work.
In that case I think I might go on and do something like Ninjitsu, or maybe something to complete my karate training, like some styles that focus more on ground work.
If I had the option of not quitting my current style, I would never leave.

[gamedweeb]

A friend was telling me about when he was studying Shito Ryu. I guess it was supposed to have taken something like 20 years to get a black belt. What it would take to get a second dan in that system I have no idea.

Oh well whatever if one system doesn't have what you want move on to the next :-)

-Brandon

[Ragnarok2005]

I think it's too general of a question. Especially regarding TKD.

I've heard from many, many blackbelts that they felt fed up because they're instructor didn't know how to carry on teaching. Yes there's tons to learn after blackbelt in TKD, but actually, not every instructor is all that capable of teaching it and they're just good at getting people from white to 1st Dan.

Now without trying to start a war here, my instructor got his 2nd Dan under the TAGB and then stayed for several more years. He learned nothing, felt like he wasn't progressing and didn't see a future. When he spoke to the other blackbelts, they all agreed with him and they all changed to the GTI. Now our instructor holds Blackbelt training regularaly, where they usually get a chance to do advanced Ju-Jitsu, study pattern applications and just get worked really, really hard.

-

I plan to train in many more different martial arts. [The only other martial art I've got any serious time and experience with is Judo] But that's because I don't believe in limiting myself. I hope to do a year or two teaching English in China after I've finished my education, and while I'm out there I'd very much like to try out Wing-Chun.

Whether or not I stay with TKD and Ohdokwan forever... I don't know. Depends on what I see and experience in my future Martial Arts career. I must admit what I've seen of Gojuryu and Kyokushin Karate appeals to me greatly.

[G50]

I have done both the 1st choice and the second choice, I've done other martial arts, but have also continued with my training in TKD. A couple of years ago I have vowed to never leave my TKD/HKD school or to stop training in TKD, So I never have. :)

[LizzieKen]

This is a really difficult question for me. I'd have to have a very good reason for switching. I have a second dan and plan on going for my third. I'm always trying to improve and it's likely to remain a life-long goal for me. I'm just amazed at the number of people who quit after they get their first dan. There's always more to learn, even if some instructors are only used to getting people up to that first black belt.

I suppose one very legitimate reason for switching would be if you were an MMA competitor. However, I'd imagine you'd continue training in your old style as well.

On the other hand, I do enjoy mixing styles. While I will never give up tkd, I have trained in muay thai and like to mix what I've learned. Also, with the increasing popularity of XMA, I advocate mixing styles more than ever, so long as you have one dominant discipline.

Wow, I hope that makes sense. This is what happens when I get too little sleep...