just out of curiosity

[jimi_lives]

right before i start, im letting you know, im due to start ninjutsu in the next 2 weeks, and have watched alot of ninja movies so my impression of ninjas may be a little inflated. please have mercy on my lack of knowledge.

when you train in ninjutsu, when you are taught evasive manoeuvers, does that include backflips and no-handed cartwheels and that sort of stuff?

forgive me if this is a stupid question.

cheers
Jim

[ns_oni]

In the dojo, it is rolls rather than backflips and things like that. They are discussed in several ninpo books and it is a good skill to have, but i don't think they are necessary. Good luck on starting, what type of ninjutsu are you joining?

[jimi_lives]

i believe it is Bujinkan, i will be learning at the Australian Ninjutsu Academy. im really looking forward to it, it should be great fun.

soooo, real ninjas DO do backflips and whatnot, awesome....

cheers
Jim

[ns_oni]

It's not like that, being able to do a backflip is an advantage in any art. It is not taught in my dojo (atleast i think), but i have seen it BRIEFLY talked about in books. I also study bujinkan in Australia :D

[jimi_lives]

oh right. understood. where do you train?

cheers
Jim

[Dark Blade]

Ninja movies often make ninja's out to be the bad guys, born and bread simply to kill...which was not the case at all.

If you want flips and all that try, Capoeira, it's all it's flippy glory.

Now, contrary to what I just said, remember this...
1. Ninjas are mammals.
2. Ninjas fight ALL the time.
3. The purpose of the ninja is to flip out and kill people.


(I hate you, realultimatepower.net)

[jimi_lives]

ive always wanted to do capoeira, except theirs NO places to train around my parts. the nearest one in about 3 hours away. plus, you cant bust out a shuriken in capoeira ;)

so, where do you go about learning to backflip and whatnot in a martial arts standpoint if you know what i mean.

cheers
Jim

[Dark Blade]

I don't find them that useful in MA.
If anything, they're escaping techniques, and they're not even good at that.
Your off balance for far to long, in too weird a position.

If you want to be able to back flip, teach yourself (not as hard as it sounds) or go to gymnastics.
:)

[honest_john]

I have to agree with some comments here, gymnastic knowledge has to be an advantage in any art in my humble opinion, a freind of mine I spar with (Lau Kar Kung Fu) is very versatile and trains in gymnastics at least twice weekly, therefore he is very hard to catch/pin down and should you suceed in knocking him over he is up again VERY quickly.

You can go too far though I reckon, his cartwheels for example (as magnificent as they admittedley look) are fairly slow which does provide ample oppurtunity to strike him especially if you have a weapon with a little reach on it, so I would say keep it simple and reserve the flowery/show off stuff for kata's and gradings, lol.

What I have lernt in Ninjutsu so far (begginer) is simple rolling and evasion and very clean and simple and nice and close to the ground too!

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

I study Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, and while some students will occasionally demonstrate backflips or one-handed cartwheels just for fun, it isn't required that we learn to perform these. The "fanciest" gymnastic move we do is the cartwheel (two-handed), and I can honestly say that I have never seen anyone in class actually use a cartwheel to evade or escape or protect him/herself while falling. The simpler rolls and falls usually suffice.

[xplasma]

In Genbukan those are actually part of the 10th kyu Taijutsu training.

Zenpo Tenkai - Front flip
Koho Tenkai - Back flip
Yoko Kuten - no hands cartwheel

however, no dojo I been to enforces learn these 3. Rolling is the most important matwork you should know. Once you get a few years into your training you should start trying to do these. Mostly becuase after 2-3 years your muscle tone will be strong. Your matwork should feel good and most importantly your falling technqiues with be improved. So if you fall, it won't be a big deal. Like everything you won't get it on the first try.

[Zamfoo]

10th kyu? So a flip is a white belt skill?

[Kagebushi]

cartwheels are a fairly good technique to know, not really for evasive uses, but so you can grab things discreetly (sand, grass, or dirt for eyes, rocks, gravel, etc.)

[xplasma]

Originally posted by Zamfoo
10th kyu? So a flip is a white belt skill?
10th kyu is pre white belt in most dojos. According to Tanemura Sensei's Fundemental Taijustu Vol. 1 they are part that training. As a said before, its not something enforce, but once you get comfortable with matwork, you should give it a try.

[ns_oni]

Darkblade please dont mention realultimatepower :(

I train in Queensland.

Although i do bujinkan i like to study ninpo in general, xplasma is right, in the genbukan ninpo book it gives a basic start on how to do a backflip. :D

[Mordred]

Originally posted by xplasma
Rolling is the most important matwork you should know.

Definitely.

We first focussed on rolls (in a Bujinkan dojo), then later we started doing dive-rolls, where you have to dive over a chair, etc. then do a roll.

We did do cartwheels & handsprings later. It took me quite some time to get them right.

IMHO the cartwheels helped me to get used to my head not always being above my feet, I was also less tense in throws. I used to practice on grass first a lot, since mistakes don't hurt that bad! We also did hand stands where you keep you feet in the air and walk around on your hands - this really exersized my arms and shoulders and improved my sense of balance.

Before worrying about things like cartwheels rather focus on your rolls.

[jimi_lives]

that sounds pretty awesome. i think i start next week sometime. actually today, i managed to pull off a few handsprings. ive been trying to do them for a while, but have just been giving my ribs a thorough workout, but today i nailed about 6, and im feeling pretty tough :). shame theyre completely useless in a street situation.

cheers
Jim

[Mordred]

Originally posted by jimi_lives
that sounds pretty awesome. i think i start next week sometime. actually today, i managed to pull off a few handsprings. ive been trying to do them for a while, but have just been giving my ribs a thorough workout, but today i nailed about 6, and im feeling pretty tough :).


:) Good for you, good luck, just keep with it, it takes time.

Originally posted by jimi_lives
shame theyre completely useless in a street situation.


Lets put it like this: if you can do a handspring, but never use it in a street situation, ok, if you do, well great. Whether they are useless or not is a matter of opinion. Doing a lot of things like that might just help you with general balance and conditioning.

Just another feather in your cap!

[Bouk Teef]

Although in conflict it would be very unwise to start flipping all over the place they are still good to learn. Being able to flip / cartwheel or roll well involves knowing how to move your body and knowing your body's limitations. Flexability is also important. So and act of doing a flip might not be advisable but the skills / fundementals of the flip will be transferable to something else.

[Kalifallen]

As people have stated flips, handsprings and somersaults are not really taught or are not that useful. Maybe, but it depends on how you fight/spar. As you learn more and more of Ninjutsu you will figure out what works for you so then you will be able to decide on if it is good for you or not.

In dojos they usually just teach you rolls (front, back, right, and left, dive), falling, cartwheels (two handed, maybe one handed and no handed if you are doing weapons training), and... I think that's it. Still, where your dojo teaches it or not. I think it is a wise thing to learn. You may not alway use it or care to but it is good to know it if you are in a situation where you'd have to use it.

Somersaults are usually used for jumping on things or off of things. Reason why is it slows your momentum down so you don't land as hard. Or if you are jumping on something then it would make the landing more controlled and softer (quiet).
Flips and handsprings are usually used to evade objects, such as shuriken or to move back while dodging a kick/punch. Reason why this is better than a jump is because it is more hidden. When you do a jump your opponent can see everything you are doing. When you do a flip or a handspring they only see half of what you are doing or less. That gives you the time grab something from your pocket or off the ground and throw it at his face when you land.

[jimi_lives]

hmmm... sounds like a plan. where do you go about learning these manouevers? i taught myself a front handspring and a kip up, but is it wise to go trying back somersaults on a patch of grass?

cheers
Jim

[Kalifallen]

What's a kip up? Never heard of it.

I'm sure you can also do a cartwheel since you can do a front handspring. Both are really good to know when you start out.
I, myself, can do a front and back handspring, and cartwheel with two and one handed (still working on a no handed one) with no problem. I'm still trying to perfect my somersaults and flips. I pretty much taught myself from books.

To answer your question, it is a good idea to have padding to do any of these moves but not really necessary. By that I mean, you are going to have to learn how to take a hit or a fall and this is the best way to get use to it. Or, at least that is how I see it. I do mine on the grass or on the carpet. Remember to have enough room. Also, check with books to see what they have to say. If you are still worried about doing the moves get a friend or two to support your body while to complete the move so you won't fall down. Also, a good thing to know is it is easier to do the somersault or flip, by yourself, if you start by jumping off a ledge. Make sure it is fixed and it should be at least 2 feet off the ground. It'll help with the height for the jump.

I hope that helps, but remember don't try anything you are worried about because you have a higher change of hurting yourself if you are nervous. Be relaxed and don't worry about hurting yourself if you try it. It'll be safer on your body.

[SilentNightfall]

I just felt like being the one to explain what a kip-up is. Basically, it is where you are laying on your back, curl up some, and use the power of your legs to kick yourself up and onto your feet. You've probably seen this is countless movies where a guy gets knocked down and just kicks right back onto his feet.

[Kalifallen]

Found a video that shows people doing back flips and stuff. Has two partners holding the flippers legs and when he jumps they help his legs into the flip, so he doesn't land on his back.
www.totalwarrior.com
Under videos, 2003-Sept-18, Advance Flips Rolls.
They have other videos with flips. There's one in the Adventure section of the videos, but I don't remember which number. They are on the beach doing back flips.

Thanks for the info on the kip up. I've seen them before but had no idea what they were called. They're hard to do though. I think you need strong abs for that.

[jimi_lives]

i reckon theres a bit of a trick to them. you use ur hips as a spring, so when you bring your legs over your hips, you push them forward as hard as you can, and then you just naturally fold up onto your feet. works for me.

and ive improved my average now haha i can do them about 2 out of 3 times woooo

thanks for the info

cheers
Jim

[Kalifallen]

Thanks, Jim and Joshua. I also did a Journal on gymnasitcs so you might want to check that out too.