English Martial Arts??

[Geordie Boy]

I've heard a couple of times mentioning the old English Martial arts.
Are they referring to boxing, and old wrestling or is it something else. Are they still taught today, and are they any good.

[Louie]

They are in practice today, a variety of indigenous weapon arts including sword, dagger, cudgel & quaterstaff they also do the older styles of boxing & wrestling (which have kicks)

They've been going a while now, the founder is former Kung Fu master, Terry Brown. I doubt if he would have bothered if they weren't effective for him personnally or for the people who train with him.
I believe he can be contacted at:

http://www.maisters.demon.co.uk/

Louie

[Disciple]

I suppose "fisticuffs" would be.

[shonuff]

Boxing that's about all i've heard. Boxing is shared by most of europe as a sport as is wrestling.

The Irish have some of their own. Boxing and Bata stick fighting which is based on boxing are well known. Bata is Irish cane fighting. Very interesting.

[SoKKlab]

Originally posted by Geordie Boy
I've heard a couple of times mentioning the old English Martial arts.
Are they referring to boxing, and old wrestling or is it something else. Are they still taught today, and are they any good.

Here's a link to my book reviews;
http://www.martialartsadvice.com/cat.php?cat=4

Loads of books about aspects of Old European Martial Arts, including Terry Brown's (Maister of London) book-
'English Martial Arts' (Get a copy).

Also Paladin Press has a Fantastic book called
'Master of Defence' (The works of George Silver)
by Paul Wagner.

Which is a detailed analysis of George Silver's 1599 Book 'Paradoxes of Defence'. I haven't finished it yet, but will post a review soon (on my website), it's excellent.

European Arts were and are fantastic, highly developed and something to be historically respected.

[Yang, Dae-han]

True English MA is here:

http://www.jogoff.com/worldcup/#

Cheers,

DH

[Infesticon #1]

hahahahah Paul Kaye Demonstrating some of Basingstoke's finest.

[Topher]

I wanted to post that Brit Fight, but didn't cos of the language. Funny as hell :)

[MadCat_42]

Bear in mind that historically Britain has been at war for most of its existance and before. As a nation we have fought for our nationality (and to be fair lost for a large portion of it) since like forever. The martial arts that occured back then are a mix of different cultures Roman, saxon, viking and the celtic fighting styles. The true english martial arts are primarilly weapon based, cos lets face it who wants to go hand to hand with an armoured loony waiving what seems to be a metal surfing board at you. For this reason weapon combat such as sword and Long bow were emphasised while our unarmed skills suffered. But then who needs to use unarmed in that period when you are capable of putting 10 arrows into the air all capable of punching through plate mail.

What would qualify as an english martial art now I am not sure. A lot of those skills have been lost to time. Although some are practiced still gone are the days when we had to practice with a bow or sword every sunday for two hours in front of clergy members.

[SoKKlab]

while our unarmed skills suffered.

Not necessarily true, The English Fight (olde style Boxing) was a relatively complete Fighting and sophisticated system consisting of many Striking (Kicks, Chops, Punches, Hammerfists, Forearm and Elbow strikes etc) and Wrestling (Throws, Locks, Pins, Breaks, Hoists, Groundwork etc).

Remnants of this and other systems remain in still practised, but minority Fighting Arts from the British Isles today.

If you are interested, then read, as a starting point, 'English Martial Arts' by Terry Brown (Anglo-Saxon Books) for more information.

[La Mancha]

Longbow, Broadsword, Dagger, Pint lifting, oops that is not a martial art.
What the hell its better than most MA's

David (hick)

[Tim Merritt]

Might find something here (or someone who knows something about it): www.theARMA.org

[Visage]

TeJitsuDo is English.
Adapted from Eastern Martial Arts and mixed in with traditional Boxing Techniques. Its quite new and is still developing.

[fnoble1]

The English Martial arts are alive and well in England and America.

We have the main Company of Maisters club in Mill Hill London.

We have an English Martial arts club in the Wallace Collection in London.

We also have a Company of Maisters club in America run by Chris Myers.

If you want to know more look at the website for the Company of maisters

Frank

[OBCT]

damn shame you've not spread out up north, or even to the midlands so far. London is a fair treck from here, plus its stinks of car fumes.

[Stolenbjorn]

You could allso search for a guy named Mendoza, an author of an english(?-It sure seems very similar to what SoKKlab describes some posts above.) -boxing manual from the 17th century.
(I might miss by a century here, as I've only been briefly introduced to the manual by a chap named Colin Richards, currently living in Germany. He does lectures, in most WMA's actuly. His force is Italian Longsword and Sword/bucklar; I-33)

[OBCT]

see as far i've seen, people like maisters and terry brown, only go as far back as 16th century english systems (like elizebethian times)

Given that the art, architecture, religion were fairly advanced many years before this, where is the info on these earlier arts. By earlier i mean, before the church hit uk, possibly even as far back as prettanic days. We had systems of divination then, ideas of systems in all other aspects of life, surely a martial art system of some form must have been around before 16th century. (I'm also fairly sure that systems would have been in celtic ireland/prussia/germania/gaul/ even nordic systems around this time. where are they now.

Any info would be most appreciated ?

[Rob Lovett]

Yes, there were martial systems that existed in England before the 16th Century, but without written documentation it is difficult to discern what that system would have been like.
The absence of written documentation is not unusual as paper is a delicate medium and much has been lost to fire, flood, war and plague, not to mention of course the Disolution of the Monastaries by good old Henry, where many manuscripts would have been held. This is not to say that something may not be found in the future, as many libraries have not fully their collection, or have recorded it in error, and there are also private collections where material may be held and not come to light unless that collection is sold or is otherwise made public.
In addition to that we must remember that the documents before the 16th century would have been more likely to be hand written, which means that only one or two documents may ever have existed unless someone decided to have them copied. For instance, there were only 5 copies of Fior Battaglia recorded in Nicolo III's library, if these had not been copied would we be aware of the existance of this particular MS. It was not until the advent of the printing press that manuscripts could be more easily produced and disseminated and this is why we have a sudden increase in the available amount of date for later periods, as well as the fact that these documents would have had a couple of hundred years less wear and tear than earlier manuscripts.
Also, it may surprise people to learn that England was not as advanced culturally as one may think. England was pretty much a cultural backwater, being on the edges of the Angevin Empire and also embroiled in war for lengths of time that really stretched the coffers of the English to the very limit into bankruptacy and beyond. This may of course, be another reason why fighting systems are not recorded in England before the 16th Century.
As far as the existance of earlier forms of MA, I would say look at the traditional wrestling systems, although probably a sportive version of what they developed from, if we consider what is banned as well, we may get close to a realisation of what some early forms may have looked like. In addition to this we cannot ignore the more traditional forms of folk dancing as these may well hold some clues as to what the ancient martial systems may have looked like, but I am sure that Louie can talk more about that aspect.
However, when looking at these earlier forms, however, they may have descended and exist today, we must remember that there has been hundreds of years for these things to change, for example look at the english language and how this has changed since the 14th Century.
Finally we must remember that the English is a mix of people from all over Europe and each would have bought their own cultural heritage with them, and also their fighting arts, and these too would have been absorbed into the fighting mix and would have changed systems of Martial Arts....
Sorry I will stop now, as I am boring even myself.

Regards
Rob

[OBCT]

Not boring at all, quite informative. I had thought of morris dancing as akin to a form of throwing, wearing heavy armour, even irish dancing may have a martial aspect to it.
Although i realise the factors affecting the texts concerning the older arts, i just do find it very difficult to believe that nothing survived. If we look at say the knights templar and roslyn chapel it was not uncommon for things to be hidden from the church's destructive reach. i'm sure texts will be aroud. somewhere.

[Louie]

[QUOTE=OBCT]Not boring at all, quite informative. I had thought of morris dancing as akin to a form of throwing, wearing heavy armour, even irish dancing may have a martial aspect to it.QUOTE]

Hi OBCT,

I haven't seen much of Morris and am interested in your observations as the Highland Dirk Dance has leg locks, trips and sweeps akin to the oldest methods of European wrestling, and there is a great description of an old Irish stick dance which Ken Pfrenger is researching-reviving in the US

Since I started my own research in Scotland in 2000-01 I've managed to find:

Stickfighting (single-stick) was still taught as a training weapon for the sabre by at least one fencing master (Prof Bracewell) in Scotland well into the late 80's, early 90's

The Single-stick art was revived in the Royal Navy by Locker Madden back in the 1980's, he's now retired (and is still single-stick Champ)

Mr Baxter, backhold wrestling coach practiced dirk knife-fighting 50 years ago.

Mr Wesencraft, one of the few persons to learn the combative 'Dirk Dance'
which resembles a kata/dance much like Indonesian Silat.

There are a number of traditional events around the UK which could hold the key to rebuilding indigenous martial arts, from the Shin-Kicking of the Cotswold Games to the Dirk Dance of the Isle of Mann. All it takes is for experienced MA'ers to go out and recognise, practice and preserve them.

louie

[OBCT]

These things definetely need restoring no doubt.

But surely there must be recorded observations. Say the Pagans, used copper and tin to make bronze axes, very similar to those of the saxons and celts and the types found all around the euphrates even further north during the persian empire.
We have recordings of astrology, medicines, religious beliefs all parts of society from back in pagan days. But no recordings of MA ? We must have had systems back then, i just find it hard to believe there are no texts. In Titacus's account of Germania during saxon times, he mentions their social structure and fighting methods, which hint at formalised systems, but no descriptive detail. These systems did exist all over europe, but no evidence ? its all a conspiracy i tell you.

In terms of restoring MA from traditional sources like highland dirk dance, morris dancing, shin kicking, there just isn't enough money or time or resources put into preservation, people prefer the mysterious lure of oriental myths and legends.

[Louie]

We have recordings of astrology, medicines, religious beliefs all parts of society from back in pagan days. But no recordings of MA ? We must have had systems back then, i just find it hard to believe there are no texts. In Titacus's account of Germania during saxon times, he mentions their social structure and fighting methods, which hint at formalised systems, but no descriptive detail. These systems did exist all over europe, but no evidence ? its all a conspiracy i tell you.

Hi OBCT

Check back on our earlist posts in this forum, there are lots of accounts particularily in Irish texts of Martial training methods used in Ireland and Scotland~

One of the earliest references to martial training in Scotland comes down to us from the Celtic legends of the warrior, CúChulainn, a ‘Champion of the Red Branch’ who travelled in his youth to Alba (Scotland) to learn the arts of war from Scathach ("The Shadowy One" or "She Who Strikes Fear") a fearsome female expert in martial arts. Her training camp was believed to be based on the Isle of Skye....
The 'student' had to complete a combination of athletic training and fighting techniques described in the Tain Bo Chuailagne – (the Cattle Raid of Cooley), as cleasa or feats.

The Apple-feat: Juggling metal balls which could be thrown to injure or kill an opponent?
The Edge-feat: Displaying sword guards and angles of attack?
The Level Shield-feat: Demonstrating the ability to deflect and ward off sword attacks with a shield?
The Little Dart-feat: Demonstrating the ability to throw a projectile with speed and accuracy?
The Rope-feat: A demonstration of balance, a training technique in which a warrior fought while on a rope stretched between two poles?
The Body-feat: Body building or perhaps the ability to shape shift, distorting the body into Yoga-like positions?
The Feat of Catt: ?
The Hero's Salmon-leap: This has often been interpreted as an upright vertical leap like a salmon jumping out of the water.
The Pole-cast: Throwing a pole, or perhaps tossing a caber?
The Leap over a Blow: This may have been the Swordsman’s Leap which is performed in the Dirk Dance, jumping above an opponent’s sword blow in combat
The Folding of a noble Chariot-fighter: The ability to duck to avoid javelin throws both on the ground and on a moving chariot?
The Gae Bulga ('the Barbed Spear'): CuChullain’s special weapon,
The Vantage (?) of Swiftness: foot-racing or sprinting?
The Wheel-feat: Lifting & tossing a heavy weight?
The Rimfeat: Using the rim of a shield as a weapon?
The Over-Breath-feat: breath control?
The Breaking of a Sword: Power shots with a sword?
The Champion's Cry: A war cry or Chi shout?
The Measured Stroke: Precision cutting with the sword?
The Side Stroke: Striking with the flat of the Blade?
The Running up a Lance and Standing Erect on its Point, and Binding of the Noble Hero (around spear points): Monkey KF?

Louie

[OBCT]

thats given me a fair bit to look up. thank you.

[notquitedead]

TeJitsuDo is English.
The way of the art of the hand? :D

[Lobsang]

A cuple of days aggow i sore a program on BBC 3 called "Mind Body and Kik Ass Mooves".It showd a barlnees nife fiting MA and a darns vershon dissined for traning in seecrasy, it look allmost identical to Morris Dansing, cowissidans?

ps.check awt the show if you can its dam good.Abawt 11pm thursdays BBC 3

[LabanB]

Hi Lobsang,

First shown on Mondays 9-10pm, and about 2-3am, then Thursday morning about 1-2am and 4-5am.

Bill

[Lobsang]

Ye thancks LabanB

I woch it arfta my weekly Ju Jitsu on thursdays.It is verry interesting thow i hily reckamend it.

[Cudgel]

Lobsang please use proper spelling when posting. some of us hav a hard time undestanding poeple when they post either phonetically or use a lot of slang in their posts.

[Stolenbjorn]

...ellers begynner jeg å snakke Norsk! :eek:

[SoKKlab]

...ellers begynner jeg å snakke Norsk! :eek: Just what I was thinking :p

[wcrevdonner]

I have a feeling that stolenbjorn finds it hard to use english because its his second language as opposed to using slang Cudgel.

Good on him for trying to practise his English here.

[Lobsang]

Quote:Originally Posted by
Lobsang please use proper spelling when posting. some of us hav a hard time undestanding poeple when they post either phonetically or use a lot of slang in their posts.

Sorry im dislexsick and have a lot of trubbul wit spelling.But i will triey harder sorry :( .And if you are lerning English good on you i've lived haer for 18 yaers and im still lerning.

[Cudgel]

...ellers begynner jeg å snakke Norsk! :eek:
Es tut mir leid. Ich wiess nicht was Sie sprechen. Ich weiss nicht Norsk.

Anyhoo.
I have no problem reading Stolenbjorns english..only his norse.

Lobsang: In that case I will try to read waht you post with that in mind. it jsut that when ever I run across someone who doesnt spell correctly I almost imediately think to myself that this person isnt worth understanding.
But il make exception for people who cannot spell due to some disability.

[Lobsang]

Thancks, and if it wasn’t for people like you I wouldn’t have any incentive to spell properly thanks :)

[Prithee]

Hi all, referring back to the original post, though you might like to have a look at Terry Glover's English Combat:
http://www.englishcombat.com

Stick fighting, English quarterstaff, other weapons and unarmed. I train regularly in English Combat and I'm well-impressed (I have a background in judo and karate). Anyway, hope you find the site interesting.

All the best

[Stephen Hand]

People interested in English Swordsmanship should take a look at the British Federation for Historical Swordplay (http://www.hadesign.co.uk/BFHS/home.htm).

[Louie]

Hi Prithee..

Although there's nothing wrong in directing us to a particular website, as already stated, continually advertising your website in your first posts is only going to end in your message being deleted, please check the terms and conditions for posting!

Other than that, welcome to MAP, I enjoyed your website graphics/animation and look forward to any contributions you may have to this section :D

Louie (WMA Mod)

[Prithee]

Thanks for the warm welcome Louie.

'English Combat' is actually a Fighting System, as opposed to a Martial Art. Among other differences, there's no bowing, simply mutual respect.

[Cudgel]

actualy.....martial arts is English for well martial arts and was used long long before West met East. So itis quite correct to refer to English combat as a martail art. It doesnt nee d to have bowing or esoteric philosophy to be a martial art.
in any case welcome to MAP

[Prithee]

Good point Cudgel, well made. And I quite agree. I should clarify - I was meaning our specific system: Terry Glover's "English Combat" is a Fighting System rather than a Martial Art. Terry himself would more eloquently explain why, but it is a point he feels strongly about.

[Esgrimador]

Longbow, Broadsword, Dagger, Pint lifting, oops that is not a martial art.

I beg to differ.

George Silver offered the scuffle between Vincentio Saviolo and Bartholomew Brambler as an example of the True Arte of Pynt Lifting:

"Then said the master of defence: "Sir I have a school of defence in the town, will it please you to go thither?" "Your school?" said master Vincentio, "What shall I do at your school?" "Play with me (said the master) at the rapier and dagger, if it please you." "Play with you?" said master Vincentio, "If I play with you, I will hit you 1,2,3,4 thrusts in the eye together." Then said the master of defence: "If you can do so, it is the better for you, and the worse for me, but surely I can hardly believe that you can hit me. But yet once again I heartily pray you good sir, that you will go to my school and play with me." "Play with you?" said master Vincentio (very scornfully), "by God let me scorn to play with you." With the word scorn, the master of defence was very much moved, and up with his great English fist, and struck master Vincentio such a box on the ear that he fell over and over, his legs just against a buttery hatch, whereon stood a great black jack. The master of defence fearing the worst, against Vincentio his rising, caught the black jack into his hand, being more than half full of beer. Vincentio lustily started up, laying his hand upon his dagger, & with the other hand pointed with his finger, saying very well: "I will cause (you) to lie in jail for this gear?), 1,2,3,4 years. And well said the master of defence: "Since you will drink no wine, will you pledge me in beer? I drink to all cowardly knaves in England, and I think you to be the very most coward of them all." With that he cast all the beer upon him, notwithstanding Vincentio having nothing but his gilt rapier, and dagger about him, and the other for his defence the black jack, would not at that time fight it out."

Hey, Bramble was just making use of an environmental weapon! :)

[Pat OMalley]

Good point Cudgel, well made. And I quite agree. I should clarify - I was meaning our specific system: Terry Glover's "English Combat" is a Fighting System rather than a Martial Art. Terry himself would more eloquently explain why, but it is a point he feels strongly about.
Hi Prithee,
Welcome to MAP, say hi to Terry for me and tell him I will see him next year at one of the events.

Regards

Pat

[Sandy]

Hi there,

You can do 1-day taster seminar(s) in mediaeval English weaponary here in the UK. Check out the Harlequin Combat System at www.praisespring.co.uk or e-mail info@praisespring.co.uk

[Stephen Hand]

What are Mr Garrett's sources for his teachings?

[OBCT]

Hi there,

You can do 1-day taster seminar(s) in mediaeval English weaponary here in the UK. Check out the Harlequin Combat System at www.praisespring.co.uk or e-mail info@praisespring.co.uk
Won't it be all Wing Chun stylised ? Or is there some background information missing, like his studies of medieval England or some kind of marker that would warrant his teaching of traditional English martial arts, rather than his opinion, probably fairly heavily based on Wing Chun.

[Nick K]

Anyone read Tom Brown's Schooldays? Set in 18/19 century England. At the beginning of the book, before Tom goes off to school, there is a detailed description of a stick fighting contest at a fair. Tom is also taught a variety of wrestling holds in his childhood, one of which I think he uses to defeat his arch enemy Flashman. Ah, the benefits of a classical education!

English MA seem to be light on the use of high kicks/kicking combos. Is this right? I reember at school that kicking your opponenet was regarded somehow as unsporting and that 'kicking was for donkeys'. Hee Haw.

[Sandy]

Hi again,

I've no idea about Mr Garrett's sources for his teachings, as I haven't been to the school.

Thus, I also don't know whether or not it will be unduly wing chun influenced. Though a wing chun background doesn’t mean that the Harlequin system is necessarily wing chun based. (My JKD instructor is a 5th degree tae kwon do practitioner, yet his JKD is Dan Inosanto lineage jun fan.)

I might pop along to one of the Harlequin system taster days, in which case I’ll post what it’s like on MAP.

[The Damned]

As already mentioned, most info regarding english MA's will be regarding weapons. Remember Martial art (relating to military) is different to 'combat art'. If we talk about martial arts, then surely we should be looking for 'systems of combat' taught within military establishments as a means of warfare.
Wrestling and boxing, as far as i know don't count as martial arts, unless certain parts of historical info elude me and they actually taught these to knights/soldiers etc.
Having said that, i wouldn't call anything modern an english martial art, unless you see it being used in a military combative structure.
In the marines i was taught unarmed combat, but having already been indoctrinated into eastern martial arts it wasn't hard to identify common jujitsu type locks and even some karate style take-downs, along with soem judo throws etc.
I doubt very much that we will find any purely domesticated fighting system, as there is so much influence from elsewhere in the world.
But to recap, i would expect most talk of english MA's being about weapons, mainly longbow, sword, spear, dagger.

[OBCT]

Cotswold shin dance, Morris dancing, Highland fling etc, all adaptable, and most likely from a MA source.

[Esgrimador]

Wrestling and boxing, as far as i know don't count as martial arts, unless certain parts of historical info elude me and they actually taught these to knights/soldiers etc.

Why don't wrestling and boxing "count" as martial arts?

Wrestling is probably the oldest combative discipline, and European knights certainly included wrestling in their curriculum. Wrestling was done both on foot and on horseback (i.e., the idea was to grapple the other guy out of the saddle).

In fact, for many fight masters during the Middle Ages and Renaissance, wrestling was seen as the foundation for all other fighting.

As for boxing, it was part of the curriculum of self-defense, that was taught my "Masters of Defence" in England. During the 18th century, the curriculum typically included swordplay (French smallsword, as well as native English backsword & singlestick), polearms (quarterstaff), and pugilism.

[OBCT]

As for boxing, it was part of the curriculum of self-defense, that was taught by "Masters of Defence" in England. During the 18th century, the curriculum typically included swordplay (French smallsword, as well as native English backsword & singlestick), polearms (quarterstaff), and pugilism.

http://www.maisters.demon.co.uk/history.htm
Terry Brown and Company of Maisters

http://athleticscholarships.net/history-of-wrestling.htm
"The ancient Greek Olympics put wrestling on the map. Wrestling made it's Olympic debut in the Games of 708 B.C. It was apparently a much more violent, punishing sport in those early days, when it had closer ties to military training. Wrestling spread through the Roman world, as well as other early civilizations in India, China, Japan and throughout the Middle East."

http://www.cambridgeabc.co.uk/web%20pages/About/History.htm

http://www.tqnyc.org/NYC00051/BOXING.htm
"The Sumerians used wrestling and fist tactics, since hands were weapons given to the earliest man. He used them to fight off savage beasts and undoubtedly to conquer human enemies. The man striving for perfection in the use of hands in battle, no doubt practiced the fist arts and the specimens discovered by Dr. Speiser showed men at much performance. There appears to have been a lapse in the pugilistic arts from the Mespotamian era until about 1750 BC In about 900 BC, a Greek monarch Theseus son of Acgens, revived pugilistic arts to satisfy his carving for blood and death. He requisitioned certain of his father’s warriors (or gladiators). They would sit on flat stones with their fists encased in leather thongs, and punched one another till one of them died."

Wrestling and boxing, as far as i know don't count as martial arts, unless certain parts of historical info elude me and they actually taught these to knights/soldiers etc.

Both arts have been used for military or combat purposes in their history (Martial usage) so are definite MA without a doubt.

Both have also been converted into spectator sports, so can be seen as non MA in the modern day, but as sports.

Knights and soldiers used pugilistic and grappling/wrestling techniques.
Remnants of them are found as i've said, are still in Morris dancing, the Cotswald shindance, the highland fling, country dancing amongst others. The bayonet twirling (for want of a better word) drills used today by the present army has descended from a line of English MA, a comlete system that at one time existed.

[Stephen Hand]

Martial art (relating to military) is different to 'combat art'. If we talk about martial arts, then surely we should be looking for 'systems of combat' taught within military establishments as a means of warfare.

This is not borne out by the historical usage of the term martial art. The very first art that I am aware of being called a martial art is rapier fencing, very definitely not a battlefield art. At no stage in history has the term martial art been restricted to battlefield arts. The term arises from the older term "Arts of Mars", so the term relates to the Roman God of War, not specifically to the military.

[Abraxas]

Remember Martial art (relating to military) is different to 'combat art'. If we talk about martial arts, then surely we should be looking for 'systems of combat' taught within military establishments as a means of warfare.

This is a very "Draeger-esque" definition of the term and I can only imagine it being supported in the most pedantic of hoplological circles.

If you want to get technical, the OED defines "martial" as "of or appropriate to war" (my italics). Surely this encompasses virtually any combative system since most fighting methods at one time or another will have been appropriate to war.

Your definition doesn't reflect common usage and is simply obstructing discussion on what had been an interesting thread.

[OBCT]

Argument aside, apart from the actual systems used for combat in Europe (England specifically) does anyone else have an interest in (or know anything about) the Esoteric teachings that accompany them ?

Things like the Irish celtic legend of cuchalanin, and the stick he used to kill the hound with.

Chinese Kung Fu has a load of legends, myths and religious backing to learn aswell, i'm sure the European (and/or non far eastern MA) must have too, i just haven't heard of many.

[Sandy]

In the marines i was taught unarmed combat, but having already been indoctrinated into eastern martial arts it wasn't hard to identify common jujitsu type locks and even some karate style take-downs, along with soem judo throws etc.


Hi there,

I'm curious, how much unarmed combat training do you get in the marines?

My instructor has had a fair bit of informal training from a former unarmed combat instructor in the marines. (The syllabus seems larger than I'd expect.)

I gather from reading this month's Combat magazine that the US marines are now learning some BJJ as their unarmed combat system ...

[The Damned]

This is a very "Draeger-esque" definition of the term and I can only imagine it being supported in the most pedantic of hoplological circles.

If you want to get technical, the OED defines "martial" as "of or appropriate to war" (my italics). Surely this encompasses virtually any combative system since most fighting methods at one time or another will have been appropriate to war.

Your definition doesn't reflect common usage and is simply obstructing discussion on what had been an interesting thread.

Ok, your 1st sentence; with respect, take the silver spoon out your mouth and speak in plain tongue.
2nd sentence; i suggested that was what martial meant, i didn't categorically state that what i said was fact, i merely suggested and thought (as i have been told) that it was common conception.
3rd sentence; its an opinion, like everyone else's on this thread. I don't see how it can be construed as 'obstructing'. On reflection your laborious use of the english language sounds like you are talking down to the rest of us mere mortals.
So, accept the opinion, constructively correct me if you like, others have, and for that i bow to their better knowledge. YOU on the other hand, seem to be stuck up your own arse enough for me not to listen to you meanderings. A pity, as you may actually have something interesting to say on occasion.

[YODA]

YOU on the other hand, seem to be stuck up your own arse enough for me not to listen to you meanderings. Enough of the personal attacks already.

No further warning will be given.

[Abraxas]

A pity, as you may actually have something interesting to say on occasion.

If I have then it seems daft to miss out on it just because you're prejudiced against the way I write. Ah well, your loss...

But it seems ironic that you should accuse me of talking down to people. At the end of the day, I'm not the one who's arrogant enough to hold up this discussion by trying to redefine common terms.

I'm now going to duck out and let this thread get back on topic. I hope you'll do the same.

[Cudgel]

Argument aside, apart from the actual systems used for combat in Europe (England specifically) does anyone else have an interest in (or know anything about) the Esoteric teachings that accompany them ?

Things like the Irish celtic legend of cuchalanin, and the stick he used to kill the hound with.

Chinese Kung Fu has a load of legends, myths and religious backing to learn aswell, i'm sure the European (and/or non far eastern MA) must have too, i just haven't heard of many.

There is a thread somewhre in the WMA forum about celtic legend or something simalir. you could do a search or ask Louie.

[The Damned]

Enough of the personal attacks already.

No further warning will be given.
i will a offer semi apology to anyone offended. It was in reply/retaliation to Abraxas's 3rd sentence. I've re-read my post and nowhere in it do i 'state as fact' what martial meant. I actually said words like, 'as far as i know', which implies that i'm not 100% sure, and it invites correction from better advised people so that i can learn more, not someone suggesting i'm obstructing the topic by being incorrect. I said Wrestling and boxing, as far as i know don't count as martial arts, unless certain parts of historical info elude me and they actually taught these to knights/soldiers etc
It was my understanding, nothing more. Other folks have posted stuff on this thread that are wrong, but have they been accused of obstructing the topic?

Anyway, i've explained my reasons for my reply and to actually agree with Abraxas, i don't want to wonder offtopic any more. If knowone agrees with my opinions then all they need to do is ignore them and/or correct me.

[Louie]

Argument aside, apart from the actual systems used for combat in Europe (England specifically) does anyone else have an interest in (or know anything about) the Esoteric teachings that accompany them

Bringing us back on-topic (kinda) and too answer OBCT's question...

It would be interesting to hear of surviving info regarding English MA esoteric teachings....

I do know that there is recorded evidence of esoteric and practical 'feats' that were combative skills developed by Highland Scots and probably came from the legendary martial training in Scotland of CúChulainn, described in the Tain Bo Chuailagne – (the Cattle Raid of Cooley). They also taught forms of meditative practices, herbal medicine & protective prayers.

In Ireland the Bretha dein checht, an ancient Irish legal text, lists 12 vulnerable areas of the body or "12 doors of the soul". Corresponding points in Chinese martial arts are said to disrupt chi, causing knockouts or even death…..

1. The top of the head, i.e. the crown or the suture
2. The hollow of the occiput
3. The hollow of the temple
4. The apple of the throat (‘Adam’s apple’)
5. The hollow of the breast (suprasternal fossa), i.e. cavity of the throat
6. The armpit
7. The breast-bone (sternum)
8. The navel
9. The bend of the elbow (antecubital fossa)
10. The hollow of the ham (popliteal fossa)
11. The bulge of the groin (femoral triangle)
12. The sole of the foot


Louie

[OBCT]

Thanking you for that, I shall now peruse google for 'Bretha dein checht' and 'Tain Bo Chuailagne'.

[Stolenbjorn]

Other folks have posted stuff on this thread that are wrong, but have they been accused of obstructing the topic? I think that it was your definition of a Martial art that was regarded as somewhat obstructive to the topic; which is trying to dig up as much info as possible on english martial arts. If you had posted your definition of what a martial art is on the thred "Fencing" in the Weapons-forum or "is wresteling a martial art"; it would IMHO been much more relevant, as defining the consept martial arts have been heavily discussed on those threads.

[The Damned]

I think that it was your definition of a Martial art that was regarded as somewhat obstructive to the topic; which is trying to dig up as much info as possible on english martial arts. If you had posted your definition of what a martial art is on the thred "Fencing" in the Weapons-forum or "is wresteling a martial art"; it would IMHO been much more relevant, as defining the consept martial arts have been heavily discussed on those threads.

Ok Stolenbjorn, thanks for that. I thought it was relevent cos i didn't think wrestling and boxing were defined as martial arts, but if the masses don't agree then fair enough, point taken. i can at least learn from other posters better knowledge.
cheers.

[butcher wing]

the Art of Drunken Kebabbing. Can be seen every fri/sat nite! :)

[funkymonk]

2. The hollow of the occiput
Forgive me for my ignorance but what is the occiput Louie?
Also i already know about the armpit being one of the vital points but how exactly do you attack the armpit and what does it do to you if you are struck on the armpit in the right place?

btw i'd just like to say that this western martial arts forum is a real eye opener and very interesting too. :)

[Cudgel]

I think that the hollow of the occiput is the eye socket.

[Louie]

Forgive me for my ignorance but what is the occiput Louie?
Also i already know about the armpit being one of the vital points but how exactly do you attack the armpit and what does it do to you if you are struck on the armpit in the right place?

btw i'd just like to say that this western martial arts forum is a real eye opener and very interesting too. :)


Hi Funkymonk,

Occiput: The back of the head. A direct borrowing of the Latin word for the part of the head opposite the front.

The armpit would be attacked in the case of a swordsman raising his arm to strike a blow!!! The attacker would preferably be holding a sharp object, cutting arteries and disabling the swordarm.

There is a story of two Roman fighters who fought each other to a standstill, eventually it was decided that they take single shots at each other. The first tried a punch to the head but was unsuccessful. It was now his opponent's turn, he asked him to raise his arm and struck him in the armpit area, killing him!!!

I believe in Chinese PPoint fighting, a blow to this area affects the heart, causing unconsciousness or death.

Louie

[Pat OMalley]

I believe in Chinese PPoint fighting, a blow to this area affects the heart, causing unconsciousness or death.

LouieIt is also used in FMA, if you thrust the right arm pit with a stick, it can cuase the heart to flutter or cause a heart attack. Obviously if struck with blade death can follow.

I only mention FMA simply because we know it has been influenced by WMA, so a lot of similarities me thinks.:D

Regards

Pat

[Cudgel]

Obviously if struck with blade death can follow.

Pat

I think it would most definatly follow :D
I cant rember exactly how fast a person will bleed out if you sever the brachial artery but I beleive it is less than a minute with unconscienceness coming in a matter of seconds.

[jinroh-81]

There is also Cornish Wrestling, some Cornish people might be upset with me for categorising Cornish Wrestling as an English martial art. Many apologies in advanced, I heard it's quite devastating though.

[Rob Lovett]

Cornish Wrestling is an English Martial Sport :), but I would imagine that if you put in all the things that are illegal then you would get a bit closer to the art that it is meant to represent :) - English it definately is:)

Regards
Rob

[Louie]

The traditional British/Celtic forms of wrestling were devastating when you remember that they were practiced with wooden clogs & metal shod boots which they used to crack :) their opponents shins!!

Louie

[Rob Lovett]

But that was just for fun! What did they do when they were serious?

Rob