Blocks don't work

[pgm316]

“Blocks don’t work” Geoff Thompson.

I was a bit bored last night, so I had a read through a friend’s martial arts magazine. I enjoy reading Geoff Thompson articles, so I had a browse down the index and not surprisingly found one. You know what to expect when you read his work, and sure enough when I started reading I got that sense of deja vous with the paragraphs such as anger, fear and keeping the highly skilled psychotic attacker at arms length etc.

He makes some good points such as the importance of the few seconds before a fight. Then he went on to say blocks don’t work and the thought of block then counter strike was crazy. He was really putting over the importance of the pre-emptive attack, then to leave as your attacker is dazed.

Does he really believe martial arts are so ineffective or is he sending a wake up call to us martial artists that have become too complacent in our own abilities.

I agree with him to a point, it all depends on how good the attacker is and this is where he assumes the attacker is always highly skilled and devious. This is sometimes the case, although I have usually found the opposite to be true in my experiences. Against the good attacker your blocking/attacking/footwork must be good to win the fight I agree, but to say blocking doesn’t work is an uncompromising statement.

[TkdWarrior]

hmm this thread is quite close to my thread "wrists locks works or not" try reading that down... i was trying to give a different prespective of locking in that thread...
anyways... blocks r means to ur defence if u r not good in defence chances r u might not get good in offence too... basically when u r fighting i guess u should avoid the situation where u hav to block, blocks r there to stop those attacks which can hit u or u can't avoid at any cost... i guess Geoff was pointing out this part rather than bashing about ineffectiveness of MA systems
and u said he bashed about block n then counter... i myself found it useless... if u r blocking then ur blockin should match with ur attacking...not early not late... so in sense he's quite rite here...
normally in basics level we r taught first to block then to attack...
but as u far u'll find the need of blockin n attackin at same time...
just my 2 cents...
-TkdWarrior-

[johndoch]

One of the general rules of street fighting is first hit in gets the win and IMHO this is usually the case.

So what happens when your pre-emptive strikes dont connect and your opponent counters with some nice punches. what do u do? just stand there and get hit. I dont think so. U should use your defensive capabilitys to defend yourself using evasiveness, blocks, parries, slips, bobs etc until you get your chance to counter again.

I think Geoff Thomspon believes attack is the best form of defence. but what do you do when your attack fails.

[pgm316]

I'll have a read of your thread, I must have missed it.

I forgot to mention one bit, with the block and counter strike, he was talking about allowing somebody to attack before you attack is stupid strategy, which is something I definitely agree with.

Other than that he still puts far less value on blocking than most martial artists. What would you say? I think whats more important than the effectiveness of a block is how you use it and the reliance you put on them during a fight. I've always thought the best form of defence is attack, not allowing them to get good hits at you. Or at least not be at a range we're your blocking skills are really going to be tested.

[TkdWarrior]

hmmm i agree with john if ur attack fails then wat? ur defensive capabilities r goin to be tested(assuming as geoff says ur oppnt is clever than u) yup it depends on u how u use ur blocks during the fight but if ur oppn't does't get hit in first some shots there's chances of him wearing down mentally...
to me too offense is best form of defense... but one thing to remember when u attach u open gates in ur defense too... so in way u r comprimising in defense... it can be negated with good sense of blocking only here the need of blocks arises...
well let's see wat other ppl says...
-TkdWarrior-

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Blocks are there for added security as much as anything else, you can still dodge, but a good block will also open up your opponent for a counter.

[pesilat]

I haven't read this article by Geoff so I'm kinda shooting from the hip.

I would guess, though, that what he means is this:

Blocking is defensive. If you're on the defensive in a fight, you're at a disadvantage.

I doubt he was referring to specific techniques ... but rather to mindset.

There's a saying common to a lot of the Karate systems I've been exposed to: "Every block should be an attack, every attack should be a block."

I think this is probably the root of what Mr. Thompson was talking about. A "block" should be aggressive. It should be an attack. An "attack" should be economical and efficient ... which includes closing up the opponent's lines of attack ... "blocking" them.

Whether the movement you're using is a "block" or an "attack" ... it should be done in an "attacking" mindset.

I'd guess that this is what Geoff was talking about. Can you post a link to the article (if it's online)?

Mike

[Mike Flanagan]

Blocks don't work?

To say it so baldy is clearly incorrect! I have experienced real life violent confrontations in which people have tried to hit me. I have blocked their blows and been unharmed. Therefore blocks clearly can and do work!

But there is value I think in the gist of Geoff's argument. If I'm about to be attacked I want to achieve one of three things, in descending order:

1. Negate the attack before it occurs
2. Negate the attack as early as possible
3. Negate the attack once it is well underway

Option 1. might include use of prevention strategies to avoid being in the situation in the first place, verbal & body language de-escalation skills to resolve the situation without it becoming physical, or a pre-emptive strike.

Option 2. could involve using an appropriate guard position (eg. Geoff Thompson's fence) so that the assailant's attack will come from an inferior position - you can check it and deliver your own blow at the moment their attack is initiated.

Option 3. OK, you've screwed up on the first 2 options so you've got to block/evade before countering.

So blocking isn't necessarily the optimal solution, but it is a necessary skill that has its place.

One problem I find with Geoff's approach is regarding pre-emptive strikes. To deliver a pre-emptive strike appropriately requires a very good understanding of violent confrontation and its associated body language. After all, the other guy might have been blowing off steam but wasn't really intending to hit you. But everyone misjudges this now and again (I know I do and I've had more than sufficient practice at it). What are you going to do, pre-emptively strike everyone who comes within 4 feet of you, just to be on the safe side?!

Mike

[pgm316]

The pre-emptive strike
If your choice is a physical response, my advice is to be pre-emptive and strike first - very hard - preferably on the jaw (it's a direct link to the brain). The concept of defence at the point of contact is not only unsound it is dangerous and extremely naive. Waiting for someone to attack you is strategic madness because blocks don't work! The Kwai-Chang-Cain theory of block and counter-attack is even more absurd, especially if you are facing more than one opponent. There is no finesse about fighting multiple opponents, they do not line up and attack you one at a time they strike like a swarm of bees and luck is the only thing that'll keep a beat in your heart.

the full article

http://www.geoffthompson.com/articles/article_real_self_defence.htm

And a section from Watch my back

Initially, no matter how hard I tried, and believe me I did try hard, I just could not make the karate techniques that I had learnt over the past few years work for me in a live situation. Yet all around me were people who hadn't a day's formal training to their name, controlling and winning every situation that challenged them - and without breaking into a sweat.
At first I found it very confusing, but after much analysis and soul searching I came to the conclusion that the martial knowledge I was carrying could and would work for me, but it needed a little adjusting. This was something of a dilemma. Of course I could add and subtract from the training syllabus whatever I wanted, but was it ethical to butcher an art that had been developed over hundreds of years by many Masters, just to suit my own needs? Perhaps the weakness was not in the art itself, but in me. Maybe I was just not good enough to work the system. Maybe I was even demeaning the art that I loved by working on the door in the first place. What right did I have to blow against the wind? These were just a few of the problems my mind was wrestling with.

Hypothetically, just suppose I faced a violent situation where I had to defend myself. Where would I be, knowing that the art would not work effectively for me in its present form? Lying half-dead in a gutter, where the darker side of society had left me because I was more worried about change than I was about survival. My final conclusion was that change was essential if I was going to make it to pay day with my face still in place.



Some good articles on his site to get you thinking!

[morphus]

I have varied opinion on this myself - i can see Geoff's point of view, he was a doorman in some very tough clubs for years and the first sign of trouble(trouble in this enviroment is usually a definative threat and kicks off quite quickly) in that position you prob' do have to strike first, after all its your life on the line. Put in a similar situation i think everyone with some experience would do the same!

I think that the block and counter as taught in a dojo 1 action, 2 action manner is not effective in a street confrontation;
however i do think a deflection and counter measure (whatever tech' that maybe), something that is quite different to B+C, can be very effective! This is something i try to learn/teach/use. The deflection is also a tech' that is being picked up more and more by self defence arts.

Actually some British special forces(hard f***ers) use a block of sorts, i've seen some of these techs and they do them in such a way..... lets just say - I ain't gonna argue with 'em!!!!!!!!!;)

[TkdWarrior]

hmm i guess in the sense the article has been written he's assuming that u both hav done brusting ur lungs out shouting n this is time to find out who's the BOSS?? or u r in some situation where u both can't back down to avoid the altercation...

pgm : "but after much analysis and soul searching I came to the conclusion that the martial knowledge I was carrying could and would work for me, but it needed a little adjusting. This was something of a dilemma."

hmmm yup well this was a dilemma for me too if u hav read about wrist locks thread u'll know how i m doing the same technique with a bit devising... so upon researching(asking masters n all my teachers) a bit wat i found out in old times punches were not used to be like snap punches lke today... so it was easy to grab
if u say it happened like this... then it's a fault in art? yup i thought same too but i found out later that punches were not pulled back but they were compensated ie. like u r doing front jab as it hit the targets ur second punch(say from left hand) was almost there, so in fast they look like two in one go... that fast...
even if u found some of old videos of boxing matches u'll notice the same thing... even boxers used to compensate this...
at first my jaw was wide open when i realized this...
if u realise that the world of MA is changing continously... so ur style should continue changing...otherwise u'll not be good... yup u can devise some techniques which used to work in past... if u dont' do those techniques won't work and the art will die automatically(ppl won't spend their money n time on some thing which they think is useless) no one's asking u to change ur style but change ur mindset... and remember it's an Art u r learning... Art cannot be bound in boundaries... if it can it's not an art...
Art is basically an expression of Artist...
hope u guys didn't slept all thru this...this went too long...
-TkdWarrior-

[pgm316]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior

pgm : "but after much analysis and soul searching I came to the conclusion that the martial knowledge I was carrying could and would work for me, but it needed a little adjusting. This was something of a dilemma."


Sorry if I’ve caused any confusion, all the quotes I posted at that time we're Geoff's.

I agree with him in varying degrees. There have been times when I thought things wouldn’t be effective in certain situations, but I've not thought my style to be ineffective in a "real" situation. I like how he puts the importance on being pre-emptive and attacking instead of defensive. I believe that’s the way to win a fight, because each time you rely on a block there’s a chance it will fail to work.

Maybe he just studied the wrong things to be in those situations. My own teacher spent a lengthy time working on doors. He wasn’t a big guy, he found the experience valuable and his martial arts style effective. He also taught the Royal Marines hand to hand combat and won 25 full contact fights. Perhaps I’m just lucky to have been taught by somebody that knows what works in various situations.

[TkdWarrior]

"Perhaps I’m just lucky to have been taught by somebody that knows what works in various situations."
it's cool eh... my teacher doesn't work on doors.. but he used to be the angry young man in college :D so he knows his stuff...
dunno still why he insists on controlling ur anger in college...:D
-TkdWarrior-

[wayofthedragon]

Hmmm, you all have made some very good points. I do think blocks work no matter what anyone else says though. No it's not just the block that it depends on. It depends on every thing. The defenders mentality, his timing, his ability to recognize attacks, and fakes, ect. his speed. I beleive all these are factors. I won't go as far as to say all blocks work. But I belive, with the right training, the right applications, ect. Any block can be useful in one way or another.

[ladyhawk]

Blocks are more effective if they are used as a strike also. Don't just stop a technique with a block but use that block to do some damage if possible.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

I've had the relevant conversation once or twice.

"Yes, he was going to hit me, so I hit him first."

"How did you know he was going to hit you?"

"He was threatening me."

"Did he try to hit you?"

"Well no, but he was going to."

The risks of the pre-emptive strike.

As for the defender being at a disadvantage I'd have to argue that. Not only can they prove that they were justified in their eventual counter with any witnesses who may be around, they also have a chance to analyse the other person's techniques, any rhythms they have, spot openings, essentially prepare to tear their opponent to pieces as soon as they feel like counter attacking. Defending takes less energy than attacking, so its likely you can dodge and block for longer than your opponent can attack, and there's always the chance that they'll realise they've bitten off more than they can chew and you won't have to hurt anyone.

[wayofthedragon]

I agree ladyhawk;) Making you're blocks as attacks as well is very effective. This way you defend and attack in one movement. Without wasting time or energy.

I'd also like to add, some blocks may not work against certain techniques also. You may have to use a certain kind of block for a certain kind of technique. What I am saying is that, some blocks may work on certain attacks while others it may not work on. This is also why you must be able to recognize attacks.

[ladyhawk]

We learn and practice basic techniques and it is up to us to adapt them to our envirnment, circustances and body type of not only our opponents but ourselves as well.

Quickly evaluate the situation and be flexible with your techniques.

Attempt to use the block as a strike but if it was unsuccessful in doing damage, be flexible and continue on to use it to create an opening.

[TkdWarrior]

hmm ckdstudent if u notice with pre emptive strikes u hav become the agressor...may be u hav saved urself but that can cost of lots in matter with Law... u hav to remember simple thing that there is very very thin line b/w self defense n assault...here u r assaulting... the kind of power u r using... everything depend here...
-TkdWarrior-

[pgm316]

It can be difficult to use blocks in real situations especially if you don't have much room to work in. Situations I’ve struggled to use techniques in have been when the attacker charges in with a punch or throws big swinging hook punch. The blocks I used we’re closer to boxing than kung fu. I was just glad to stop the punch, trying to hurt them with a block or even knock them of balance didn’t seem too viable at the time. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying techniques such as attacking with blocks or putting them off balance aren’t useful. I don’t think its possible to use them in some situations. Ladyhawk can you give us an example of how you’d you an attacking block.

Warrior; if you thought the situation had become so bad that it will end in a fight, would you still not use a pre-emptive strike. To me this doesn't make me the attacker if the other person has give me enough reason to strike, I'd only be doing it out of self defence.

[TkdWarrior]

pgm the problem is Law doesn't listen to ur intuition or ur will or ur morals...in that case u would be the agressor...
but putting me there i wouldn't mind too attackin first...
-TkdWarrior-

[ladyhawk]

I guess this simplest attacking block is when someone throws a bar room punch.
The kind that is telegraphed and swings out some. Slide in and strike the inside of
their upper arm. This not only hurts but if you hit the nerve just right you can temporarily
disable the arm.
You have to be flexible. Blocks don't fit every situation. I prefer to parry or deflect.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

hmm ckdstudent if u notice with pre emptive strikes u hav become the agressor...may be u hav saved urself but that can cost of lots in matter with Law... u hav to remember simple thing that there is very very thin line b/w self defense n assault...here u r assaulting... the kind of power u r using... everything depend here...


Uh huh. That was actually what I was trying to point out.


You have to be flexible. Blocks don't fit every situation. I prefer to parry or deflect.

As I've said, what we call blocks in Choi are often called parries or deflections in other martial arts. We don't use direct power against power blocks.

[Ozebob]

It needs to be understood that the karate taught in Japan was intended to be part of the Physical Education program for schools, universities and community type clubs.

From this web site-
http://kfuku.fc2web.com/newfile10.html
A loose translation-
"When old style karate was exported to the Japanese mainland it was deliberately altered. When I asked Kubota about this he replied that Funakoshi sensei and other OKinawan karate teachers had made a secret agreement.

The type of Karate that is taught today in universities is not much
different from what Kubota learned back then. It was the same, but at night Kubota would go to Funakoshi to learn and it was completely different. When Kubota asked Funakoshi about this, he replied that "I do not have to teach real karate!" In short, because of this secret agreement, kata were altered and taught on the mainland so that they could NOT be used. "

I do not know if the above is true but it is a reasonable explanation based on how the 'standard' karate is taught with little to no emphasis on function, all on form!

Bob McMahon

[Joseki]

UMMMMM I like what Geoff has done for martial arts and to a point agree with some of the things he says but he has taken violance and used it under the name of martial arts now dont get me wrong for at the end of the day self defence is what you think it is but like all Instructors that write anything some will agree some not its down to the personal point of that person so take what you like I belive that blocks do work and blocks are used for self defence (or what ever you like strikes etc) for I have used blocks before and i find them very good.

[Thomas Vince]

I agree with lady hawk. "Every block is a strike, every strike is a block. Your basic blocking systems can be effectively used as strikes. An upward block under the chin can be very effective.I don't like to get up in the "idea" of a block or the "idea" of a strike. You either meet force with force or you re-direct the force and borrow it's power. The idea of a block is a concept that should exist for the beginner because blocking teaches to choose bracing angles and complimentary lines of entry for our natural weapons. That being said it should be learned then forgotten. To segment or seperate a technique prevents flow and directional harmony, which slows you do. Are you meditating horizontal again?

[TkdWarrior]

i agree with lady hawk but wat lady hawk is sayin basically applies with advance students...
first u need to learn blocks then deflecting blocks then this idea comes...i think untill n unless u hav understood first two kinds it would be tuff to realise this state...

-TkdWarrior-

[Thomas Vince]

I think that is what I said TKD?

[TkdWarrior]

oh ....but Thomas i said in lessor words ... :p
lol...
-TkdWarrior-

[Thomas Vince]

Simplicity is blissful, and effective. I bow with respect!
T
But I'll still kick yer arse!:D

[TkdWarrior]

put`em up put`em up... :p
-TkdWarrior-

[pgm316]

Originally posted by ladyhawk
I guess this simplest attacking block is when someone throws a bar room punch.
The kind that is telegraphed and swings out some. Slide in and strike the inside of
their upper arm. This not only hurts but if you hit the nerve just right you can temporarily
disable the arm.
You have to be flexible. Blocks don't fit every situation. I prefer to parry or deflect.

I like that move ladyhawk. Sounds similar to one we do, just that you have to be quick sliding in there, usually catch the inside of their arm with my elbow and follow up with another elbow to their face. One I like is when you step back, just out of striking range, but still strike their arm, with a kick if your good enough ;)

When I was talking about blocks, I was really talking about parries/defections because thats really what blocks are in wing chun, probably the same for many people.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Why learn blocks first, when deflections are easier, work better, and are more effective?

[ladyhawk]

I think it is easier for a beginner to stop a technique with a simple basic block and after they
become comfortable with techenique and their reaction time improves then advance to parry
and deflect maneuvers. IMHO

[ladyhawk]

Originally posted by pgm316


I like that move ladyhawk. Sounds similar to one we do, just that you have to be quick sliding in there, usually catch the inside of their arm with my elbow and follow up with another elbow to their face. One I like is when you step back, just out of striking range, but still strike their arm, with a kick if your good enough ;)

When I was talking about blocks, I was really talking about parries/defections because thats really what blocks are in wing chun, probably the same for many people.

I'm short and a close in fighter so it is essential for me to get up close and personal.

[TkdWarrior]

"Why learn blocks first, when deflections are easier, work better, and are more effective?"
deflection required much needed footwork and sense of range...which is not their in beginnners

"I'm short and a close in fighter so it is essential for me to get up close and personal."
eh u go too much personal :D j/k
-TkdWarrior-

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Why learn blocks first, when deflections are easier, work better, and are more effective?

I use a looser interpretation of the word 'block' to be honest, ie. a block to me is anything where I use my arm (or leg if lower down) to avoid being hit. That said, I would dispute that deflections are easier or more effective than hard blocks. Both are useful tools, both have a time and place when they're most appropriate. Deflections are great, but 'hard blocks' can be great as well. You throw a round punch at my head, I'll show you a hard block that will dissuade you from wanting to punch with that arm for the rest of the day. Not only will it prevent me from being hit, but it hurts the attacker - like ladyhawk said, attacking the upper arm can be very effective. Personally I just aim at the inner aspect of the elbow, seems to do the trick for me:) Plus it has the advantage that it matters not one jot how powerful the blow is, if my arm alignment is correct it will not collapse, it just hurts the attacker even more.

Mike

[Freeform]

Blocks don't work - Yes and No.

I've worked them for real in scraps, but probably just because the guys I've fought are untrained skells and I could see the telegraphy a mile away.

I also think its stupid to wait for the other guy to throw first (yes, I am stupid, I know that ;) )

Col

[Yukimushu]

Just recentally after starting boxing, my whole oppinion on blocks has changed... These days in kickboxing i find it much more effeciant to cover up for a second or two then strike out... If im not attacking their attack then ill cover up and then suddenly pull out and start striking which usually buys my some time and alittle spare to get my bearings back.

[Timmy Boy]

I think an important thing to note is that some people who are not so used to confrontations are not quite as good at the whole pre-fight handling thing as others, myself included. If someone goes to hit you, and you didn't know they were going to, then if you have fast enough reflexes you can save yourself from getting your arse kicked with a swift block and counter. I guess my opinion is questionable though, I've never fought anyone who was stronger than me (and that's saying something about how strong people are round here lol).

[Judderman]

Perhaps it is the mindset that the of the ol' 2 step block then punch. In reality you are not going to have the time to do both as seperate entities. When performed as a fluid movement you will get better results. I guess it saves time and energy to parry/deflect/dodge etc.

Budo.

[Hokuten_Zodiac]

Today, i wrote a paper on the effectivness of blocking, and i can honestly say that they work, or most work, with out a doubt. I have a twin brother who also does Kung Fu with me. Ocationally we get into some messy scraps, but we always see it as a way to use our skills in a real fight, with out having to worry about getting our asses kicked. Any way, i have been in many street fights (never started one myself) and i use blocks just as much as i use anything else. Also, i would like to point out some of the key factors in why blocking is effective. First of all, you should be blocking either before or after your attacks any ways, even if you dont see the attack coming, your block is still there. This seems stupid, but it works, my instructors always tell me, "block when you attack, for that is when you are most vulnerable."

Also, to use a block effectivly in combat, you need to redirect alot of your technique on the fly. For example, if you punch, while at the same time the enemy punches, redirect your strike to a block, or a sweeping forarm block to be precise. This cuts down on execution time by nearly half, if you trust the math. Also, remember that most blocks only work if the attack is comited. If he is not going to comit, then you dont need to waste your energy on the block.

I would alos like to tell you that inside and outside cresent kicks work great at blocking attacks from taller opponents who have a long reach. I do them all the time when i sparre. Kicking just to keep your attacker at bay will help your blocking as well, for he only has a limited attack ranger. And finaly, if you can force you opponent into doing something that you can see comeing, then, well, go to town on his ass. I hope i helped out with all this rable. Have fun.

P.S. excuse my spelling please, lol.
"Practice and clear thinking are the vehicals to perfection."

[TigerAnsTKDLove]

i do think blocks work if you know how to effectively use em' sometimes maybe the blocks won't work. i think blocks can be helpful during a one on one street fight but if its a multiple opponent fight... then again i dont know. i think blocks are effective on the type of fighter you are. it all depends on you as a martial artist not by your size or the art you take. all arts to me are effective.