Conditioning...

[TkdWarrior]

ok guys n gals as u could hav guessed it...this thread will talk about different conditioning styles used in MA...
so u ppl mind sharing some of ur conditioning styles with me/us?
well first here goes mine...
for forearm n shin i do tree beating...
for abdomen hitting on abdomen n chest area... sometimes with object or by partner...
i m practicing Tai-chi so i hope as i hav heard my bones will be more heavier n strong(they already r in good condition :D)
i sometimes condition thigh(back) too with partner kicking with his/her shin...

then i m learning Iron Body Gong which shows some significant results in at least 4-5 years...hmmm...it's pain...

thnx
-TkdWarrior-

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Conditioning in which sense exactly?

[TkdWarrior]

ur body, arms, shins, abdomen and something called Iron Body...
u do it?
-TkdWarrior-

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Nope, it causes massive damage, including potential arthritis and cancers. Iron Body I've seen, and it seemed very impressive, although not very practical.

[fluffydoc]

How does it cause cancers?

[TkdWarrior]

hmm ckdstudent i can bet u hav got it quite wrong... all those who hav got damaged just overdid it... well anyways it's even good to stay away from Iron body if u don't hav any idea
but wat about simple shin n forearms conditioning? don't u do...
-TkdWarrior-

[YODA]

This type of conditioning is just dumb. I prefer to condition my opponent's body by whacking it rather than my own.

And yes, Cancer. I lost a friend to it after a whack on the shin. Not funny.

[tuney30]

is this the same techniques as the shaolin minks use?

if its so bad how come they use it? or do they use it properly?
are there any pain conditioning exercises that are safe?

[Andy Murray]

Hi Tuney,

I heard of the five main Shaolin animals........Tiger, Dragon, Crane etc, but I'm sure the Mink was never mentioned. In fact, I'm not sure it's even indigenous to China, still we learn something every day ;). I haven't come across any Shaolin guys doing any shin to shin conditioning, which is where the majority of concern lies.

Unless of course......you know different?

Andy:)

[LilBunnyRabbit]

hmm ckdstudent i can bet u hav got it quite wrong... all those who hav got damaged just overdid it... well anyways it's even good to stay away from Iron body if u don't hav any idea
but wat about simple shin n forearms conditioning? don't u do...


I'll take that bet quite happily. Conditioning works by killing your nerves, and creating microfractures in the bone which then heal up stronger than before. There are illnesses which also cause deadening of the nerves, leprosy for example. I fail to see how subjecting your body to unnecessary punishment that it is not designed to take is a good thing.

[Spike]

Quote:
I heard of the five main Shaolin animals........Tiger, Dragon, Crane etc, but I'm sure the Mink was never mentioned. In fact, I'm not sure it's even indigenous to China, still we learn something every day .

I am Inspector Clouseau, do you have a leesans for your minkey?

[YODA]

Originally posted by ckdstudent


I'll take that bet quite happily. Conditioning works by killing your nerves, and creating microfractures in the bone which then heal up stronger than before. There are illnesses which also cause deadening of the nerves, leprosy for example. I fail to see how subjecting your body to unnecessary punishment that it is not designed to take is a good thing.


....... I agree. Getting hit is an unavoidable part of training, it happens enough without doing it to yourself.

[Cain]

But does'nt conditioning toughen your body? I mean I hv seen results. Ppl who get injured just overdo it. I think that conditioning is an important part of MA They are also needed in certain techniques for example - you sure as hell would want your shin to be conditioned when your opponent blocks your snap kick with an elbow or the back of his fist [ouch!!!]
Hope I don't sound dumb :love:
Cain

[YODA]

..... you'd be better off spending the time working on not getting your kick blocked.

[Cain]

Dear Yoda,
No offence but I am afraid you can't completely ignore that subject conditioning helps and sometimes, it might be the only way to get out of a jam also it can prevent quite a few injuries.
As for your kicking suggestion, there will be always be the one someone who will block it and u get the pain of your life and u will get hit like u have never been hit before in ur life. [OUCH!!!]

[Kat]

I know you are refering to shaolin stlye conditioning,which I don't think is a particular practical usuage of time

However I have always thought of my general training as a form of conditioning the body.My CV training makes my heart strong and healthy,grappling makes my joints flexible and gives me power to manipulate other bodies,partner work gives me sensitivity training.
And my rock climbing makes my hands hard,tendons strong and I have a kick arse power to body weight ratio
just a different veiw to the whole conditioning deal

[Freeform]

I feel that if your training in a realist environment then you'll get all the conditioning that you need without battering yourself off a tree or wall.

Thanx

[YODA]

Originally posted by Freeform
I feel that if your training in a realist environment then you'll get all the conditioning that you need without battering yourself off a tree or wall.

Thanx

Very well said that man!

[fluffydoc]

Yoda, not meaning to be disrespectful to you or your friend but how do you know that the blow to his shin caused the cancer? I appreciate this might be a difficult subject for you but I guess a lot of people reading this might be alarmed by this idea given that we've all been hit. I'd just like to clarify it.

Thanks.

[khafra]

From what I've read since initially posting, a solid impact to a bone can cause a lesion, bone-bruise kinda thing, and that can develop into cancer.

[Cain]

C'mon guys who says 'bout conditioning bones here? u condition ur muscles, not bones remember? And u condition them mildly, not like a car crashing into a wall at 160 mph.
|Cain|

[fluffydoc]

Khafra - just did a brief literature review on medline but didn't find anything. Where did you find this information?

[Adam]

Enduring makes you strong. In my personal experience one of the truths of life. Having sufficient pain inflicted upon you, physical or mental, will in time harden you greatly, if you don't break under the strain.

[Guitarboy1212]

About the shaolin Martial Arts. I have never heard of them doing that. And i have a question for TKDWarrior. Could you explain to me about conditioning. I'm not trying to be rude, but how does tree wacking help you. How does hitting yourself make you stronger. Could you give me some sites to give me information on this?

[Crippler]

it depends on where you live for choosing an allround martial art.
if you have the ability I would choose Jeet Kune Do.
Otherwise an allround kungfu school is a very good school.

Crippler

[Cudgel]

lift weights
it strengthens your muscles (duH)
and you ligamaments and tendons
and also improves bone density. ie makes them stronger.
It also help improve flexiblity if done properly

[YODA]

Originally posted by Cudgel
lift weights
it strengthens your muscles (duH)
and you ligamaments and tendons
and also improves bone density. ie makes them stronger.
It also help improve flexiblity if done properly


(((Applause)))

:D

[shortstick]

A long time friend of mine who grew up in Japan training in Shotakan did this kind of training. They punched progressivly harder objects over time to "condition" the hands. His right fist was so "conditioned" he could punch parking meeters, tele-poles, rocks with seemingly no pain. To this day I would not want to get hit by that punch! However, now in his 40's that hand has become arthritic.
There is a need to be able to take a good shot while in the middle of a battle for sure, but you dont see boxers just standing there letting another guy pop him in the chin over and over to condition him. :p

[YODA]

However, now in his 40's that hand has become arthritic.

Yep - I've heard this so many times. The enthusiasm of youth turns into acknowledged ignorance in later life :D

[TkdWarrior]

And i have a question for TKDWarrior. Could you explain to me about conditioning. I'm not trying to be rude, but how does tree wacking help you.
sorry didn't saw this question earlier...
well i hav no idea because i havn't read any literature/theories on it. but wat i think it's more of programming ur mind to take the beating.. it's like when u go down in a non familiar road u'll feel unconfortable but when u come next time on the same road u won't feel that uncomfortable.. right.. its the same way. conditioning basically gives u idea wat's coming ...
tree wacking doens't actually makes stronger...
even to reach the stage where u can wack tree is looooooong winded road...
first u need to conditioning ur arms/shins hitting against the partner, when u can take good shot then u increase power n pressure...
but you dont see boxers just standing there letting another guy pop him in the chin over and over to condition him. no they r used to get punched in face/abdomen area even when they r practicing it's same as conditioning...
either u do this way(sparr a lot more and take some bruises) or do other way...

However, now in his 40's that hand has become arthritic.
in Hard training u CAN get those results, but that was much of stupidity ..
Master Leong told my teacher that Gen Choi used to do conditioning even around the age of 80...
My teachers' teacher does conditioning and he's above 45(i guess)
none of them got arthritis...
there's very fine line divinding entuasism and stupidity.

and guitarboy no i don't know any sites about conditioning may be Kungfu Guys here can help u out with that...
-TkdWarrior-

[LilBunnyRabbit]

in Hard training u CAN get those results, but that was much of stupidity ..

So if you get arthritis then its stupidity, but if you're lucky enough to dodge the bullet then its enthusiasm, gotcha.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by ckdstudent

So if you get arthritis then its stupidity, but if you're lucky enough to dodge the bullet then its enthusiasm, gotcha.

ROFL.

Good one Jimmy :D

[TkdWarrior]

So if you get arthritis then its stupidity, but if you're lucky enough to dodge the bullet then its enthusiasm, gotcha.
-----------------------------
good one jimmy...

but unfortunately in the process of sheer enthuasism in writing a post to me u took the curve to the stupidity's place and forgot to read my whole post.
"There's fine line dividing both of them"

-TkdWarrior-

[TkdWarrior]

oh anyways when i m talking about conditioning... i m talking about specific parts like arms(forearms), Shins, abdomen and thighs.... these r not joints so u hav no chances of getting arthritis. I Don't do any of Knuckle conditioning except knuckle pushups... there is one of Bagua/Taiji methods of soft Iron palm method which i used to do but hav stopped because i run out of patience...
-TkdWarrior-

[LilBunnyRabbit]

but unfortunately in the process of sheer enthuasism in writing a post to me u took the curve to the stupidity's place and forgot to read my whole post.
"There's fine line dividing both of them"

There is no dividing line here.


these r not joints so u hav no chances of getting arthritis. I Don't do any of Knuckle conditioning except knuckle pushups...

Whether its joints or not is irrelevant, besides which arthritis is not the only danger. As for knuckle pushups, not a good idea, certainly not on a hard surface. Spreads the knuckles leading to microfractures in the bone which then heal up and swell, harder bone than before, but stiffening the joints.

[Andy Murray]

It's about quantity though chaps!

I've done thousands of knuckle pushups, and still play piano. For me, that quantity has done no harm, for others it might.

The reason I was doing knuckle pushups was to strengthen the wrist, and 'not' to condition the knuckles though!

[Bon]

That is the reason I also did knuckle pushups, made my punches a lot more stronger.

I think bashing your shins against trees and things similar to that is plain stupid.

[Cudgel]

Originally posted by YODA



(((Applause)))

:D

*bows*
Thanks Yoda
I got interested in weight traing to help build some mass and strength so I could withstand the blows of 6 foot rattan sticks and wear armor.
It sucks being only 150 pounds :(

[Adam]

I've done thousands of knuckle pushups too, and I've still got weak wrists. What am I doing wrong? I do the pushups on the two front knuckles, is that wrong?

[Andy Murray]

Most people won't even consider it, but we used to do them on the back of the hand too.

There's a thread on wrist exercises somewhere on the Health & Fitness section, I'll see if I can find it.

[paul paterson]

Osu.

There are many ways to condition your body and for most people in the MA the most obvious is to hit hard objects harder. Push-ups on the front two knuckles is a very good way to build up not only good muscle tone and strength but also it helps with fist alignment, helps with posture, and it can help you complete your push-ups more effectivly. Doing push-ups on the knuckles does not cause arthritis as is the same for doing it in a normal flat hand position. Arthritis comes in many, many different types and for most people the two main types are Rheumatoid and Osteo however some others are Still's Disease, Seronegative, Infective, Ankylosing Spondylitis, Gout and Lupus. For the MA the most common is Osteoarthritis, here we have two types; type A is Primary and type B is Secondary. With type B the most common problem is caused by an injury such as breaking your ankle or your wrist. If your lucky you can get away with just mild pain but for a lot of sufferers you will get pain that will drive you up the wall. For most people the diagnosis of osteo is the X-ray where it confirms loss of cartilage and formations of Osteophytes. Doing your push-ups on your knuckles or hands is good but please remember to use caution here, over doing it will cause pain and swelling. So use common sense.....

To condidtion your knuckles apart from the push-ups can be done by hitting other objects such as the makiwara, such as soft wood trees, such as other students forearms and legs as well as their torso. The use of other peoples bodies is a very good one and can be seen by watching GoJu Ryu students, the best person by far that I have seen is Master Higaonna.

So please, until you have tried it at first sight rather than hearing about it second or third time round. Then do not be negative, be proactive and have an open mind about it. Not one person that I know of and have trained with has ever said, oh......by the way don't do it cause it will give you arthritis or cancer. So please, please use more common sense here.

Osu.

Paul Paterson.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

So please, until you have tried it at first sight rather than hearing about it second or third time round. Then do not be negative, be proactive and have an open mind about it. Not one person that I know of and have trained with has ever said, oh......by the way don't do it cause it will give you arthritis or cancer.

I don't need to take cyanide to know it'll kill me.

I do know people who have managed to pick up arthritis, or at least badly deformed knuckles through doing the traditional fist conditioning methods. I also know so far three GPs and an osteo who have said that knuckle pushups can cause health problems.

[Cain]

Whatever Jimmy....

BTW, echoing paul's words -

So please, until you have tried it at first sight rather than hearing about it second or third time round. Then do not be negative, be proactive and have an open mind about it. Not one person that I know of and have trained with has ever said, oh......by the way don't do it cause it will give you arthritis or cancer. So please, please use more common sense here.

|Cain|

[Bon]

LOL!

Try it just to see if we get arhiritis later on so we can say negative things about it? Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

[Cain]

Nah, simply means unless you tried it, you can stop makin' generalisations about it!

|Cain|

[pgm316]

I don't believe its that simple Cain, I must agree with Jimmy and Bon on this.

Having an open mind is about listening to all options and making an informed decision. Not just trying is and see if your hands are knackered in 20 years time!

I would not hit my hands/arms/legs against hard objects such as wood!

[Cain]

Nah! My senior's been doing it for 8+ years, my teacher and his teacher are doing it for 20+ and 40+ years respectively, I have been doing it for about 3 years! I know people who condition since 10+ years, and not one of them has gotten anthitis or any of the stuff mentioned in here!

And your rite, it's not simple to make a generalisation about it :D:p

PS - Andy, I never knew you play the piano :D:p:eek:

|Cain|

[Knight_Errant]

what abouut hand conditioning then? My initial reaction was 'this sucks. It is for losers'. I have yet to change it.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Knight_errant
what abouut hand conditioning then? My initial reaction was 'this sucks. It is for losers'. I have yet to change it.

You don't approve, and that's absolutely fine, but don't you think your response might be just a tad offensive?

[Knight_Errant]

Well, maybe it is and maybe I should be saying so in case someone gets hold of the idea that mashing their knuckles up is a good idea and goes to hospital... I also LIKE taking my stand against shotokan karate's evil empire.

[Adam]

As I have mentioned before, I've done some somewhat severe hand conditioning to the front knuckles and now have a lot of arthiritis in my fingers, fine motor skills like tying small knots is difficult for me and my hands look like something out of a horror novel. But I still believe it's worth it, since my two front knuckles are practically unbreakable now (I hope) and I have also gotten some rather strong finger muscles.

I have little to no experience in this, but doesn't it hurt a lot to punch someone in the head bareknuckle and without hand conditioning? That would be a valid reason to do some hand conditioning, I think.

This has been sort of overlooked in this thread, but tough hands are also important if you want to do the more impressive forms of breaking, but this is probably of little importance to MMA'ers.

A good way for toughening knuckles:
Trees...
Must..
Be...
PUNISHED! :yeleyes:

[Knight_Errant]

I have little to no experience in this, but doesn't it hurt a lot to punch someone in the head bareknuckle and without hand conditioning? That would be a valid reason to do some hand conditioning, I think.
Yeah, but I'd lay money it hurts the same WITHOUT hand conditioning. Incidentally: punching a bag with gloves on DOES condition your hands, but in a less dangerous way than wacking trees like a sucker! :D :p
someone support me against these madmen!

[Saz]

How about, you have your opinion.. we'll have ours. Post some relevant things rather than anti conditioning rants. I'm sure you're well capable of it.

I doubt you'll get much support against the "madman", the rest of the members on here have respect for other peoples views, whether they agree with them or not.

[Knight_Errant]

gulp. Fair enough. I'd better not argue with the feet. :)

[Adam]

You must mean WITH hand conditioning? Ha ha, I just took the money you laid down and ran, me jolly good mate! I don't think you know what a properly conditioned hand is capable of, no disrespect intended. How can conditioning your fist to the point where you can fist-break several concrete plates make you a worse fighter or be "not martial arts related?" Would you call that a quaint party trick too?

I urge you to do some research into the late Mas Oyama. He is a very known example of what you can accomplish with superior hand conditioning. (Kyokushin_girl or Paul Paterson might have something to say about the man as well.)

There ARE styles of karate other than Shotokan by the way, I believe you would find that some of them are sensible if you look into them.

But of course, if you do glove fighting you don't really need all that much conditioning. It's up to you, really.

Beware of THE HAND! :)

And remember:

Trees...
must..
DIE! :yeleyes:

[paul paterson]

Save the trees...eat beavers instead

Paul Paterson.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Knight_errant
Yeah, but I'd lay money it hurts the same WITHOUT hand conditioning. Incidentally: punching a bag with gloves on DOES condition your hands, but in a less dangerous way than wacking trees like a sucker! :D :p
someone support me against these madmen!

So you do condition your hands! :D

We all condition, general training is enough for me, ie hitting the bag, not hitting the wood!

Mental conditioning is always far more important than the body.

[Saz]

True, mental conditioning makes you ready for strikes anywhere. Its no good having hard hands and a soft mind. Having both would be the best situation.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

As I have mentioned before, I've done some somewhat severe hand conditioning to the front knuckles and now have a lot of arthiritis in my fingers, fine motor skills like tying small knots is difficult for me and my hands look like something out of a horror novel. But I still believe it's worth it, since my two front knuckles are practically unbreakable now (I hope) and I have also gotten some rather strong finger muscles.

I know people with unbreakable knuckles, they got them by breaking them all. Most of them have difficulty holding a small pen now. Personally I'd say that nothing is worth the risk of never being able to type with ease again, or use my hands for anything detailed, but that's just my opinion.


How can conditioning your fist to the point where you can fist-break several concrete plates make you a worse fighter or be "not martial arts related?" Would you call that a quaint party trick too?

Firstly yes, I would call it a quaint party trick. Especially since the conditioning (at least the physical side) is completely unnecessary in order to break concrete plates, the conditioning that you do need for it is purely the mental drive to throw your hand with a huge force in a concrete block, whether your hand is conditioned or not, you do it right and the block will break.


But of course, if you do glove fighting you don't really need all that much conditioning. It's up to you, really.

Damn, I've actually fought on the street and never done a stroke of conditioning. Guess it must've hurt my knuckles a lot more than it felt like at the time then.

[Knight_Errant]

hehehehehehe...

[Adam]

whether your hand is conditioned or not, you do it right and the block will break.

And if you have no hand conditioning, so will your hand. I've done that once or twice, though not very badly.

You do have a few points though. It's been a few years since I punched anybody bareknuckle in the face (before I started conditioning my hands. I do remember it hurting quite a bit), so I can't tell if it's really neccesary in order to do blows to the head. You're also right that hand conditioning can stiffen the fingers a lot. But that's a choice to be made by the individual if he wants to conditition his hands. I feel it's worth it.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

And if you have no hand conditioning, so will your hand. I've done that once or twice, though not very badly.

No, the hand conditioning only stops it stinging or hurting as much, if you break your hand then its because your technique is slightly off. If you get the technique right, then only the block will break.


You do have a few points though. It's been a few years since I punched anybody bareknuckle in the face (before I started conditioning my hands. I do remember it hurting quite a bit),

Only hurts afterwards, at the time there's generally too much adrenaline to notice a small pain like that, and afterwards its secondary to the fact that you're either walking away, or being driven to the nearest hospital.


I feel it's worth it.

I just like being able to take part time jobs like data entry for extra cash, but hey, its your choice.

[Knight_Errant]

I tried doing pressups in between serving customers in a french cafe. I very nearly got fired...