Languages that have become extinct.

[rivend]

I was really surprised when i seen this site. The number of languages that were in existence at one time but became extinct.
And this list is not complete. I'm sure more were lost in even more ancient times.
This site gives links and brief summaries about each language.Some here may find this interesting.
What i was wondering how did one language disappear from a particular area then the newer one sprout up.

http://linguistlist.org/forms/langs/GetListOfAncientLgs.cfm

[Moi]

Is English there?

[Llamageddon]

Ogham is such an awesome language

[liokault]

Is English there?


Old English is there, which is what you are still using. In English 2.0 the question would be "Is English there, innit blud"?

[Moi]

Old English is there, which is what you are still using. In English 2.0 the question would be "Is English there, innit blud"?

Too many letters it would be more like

Engsh der?

I get texts from my 16 year old and I have to google them.

[m1k3jobs]

Too many letters it would be more like

Engsh der?

I get texts from my 16 year old and I have to google them.

You have a 16 year old, my sympathies. Mine are both pushing 30 and have actually turned into rather nice human beings. Grandkids are great also. My one daughter says grandkids are god's reward for not killing your own children. :)

[Moi]

You have a 16 year old, my sympathies. Mine are both pushing 30 and have actually turned into rather nice human beings. Grandkids are great also. My one daughter says grandkids are god's reward for not killing your own children. :)

He's kept at arms length :)

[rivend]

Ogham is such an awesome language

If you didn't see this link within the site you may find this interesting.

http://www.ancientscripts.com/

[adouglasmhor]

Ogham is such an awesome language
It's a script not a language.

[ColaMike]

Too many letters it would be more like

Engsh der?

I get texts from my 16 year old and I have to google them.

I have that problem with my sister and my mother.
Makes matters worse that they are horrible at spelling.

[Moi]

I have that problem with my sister and my mother.
Makes matters worse that they are horrible at spelling.

I guess we're just old-fashioned but I use punctuation in text messages

[simon s]

I guess we're just old-fashioned but I use punctuation in text messages

Me too. Load your phone's software onto the pc and you can text using the computor, saves all that fiddling with the small phone keypad.

Great at work, I can type a long text such as job details and addresses in seconds.

[Moi]

Me too. Load your phone's software onto the pc and you can text using the computor, saves all that fiddling with the small phone keypad.

Great at work, I can type a long text such as job details and addresses in seconds.

I don't really text that often but as I use the iPhone instead of the PC for pretty much everything now I'm happy with the keypad

[rivend]

Just the comparison and similar type of writing. These two were continents and oceans apart yet they look like they had a common thought in the way they expressed themselves. Looks like to me anyway.One being Chinese and the other Aztec. The Aztec one is more graphic but they both are along the same lines if the Chinese one was drawn out.Makes me think there was a closer connection between peoples of the earth in ancient times than we even know.

[slipthejab]

I'm not so sure there is much of a connection between the Chinese and the Aztecs. In terms of language the written language of both the Chinese and the Aztecs were pictograms. There will be somewhat of a similarity on the level for many ancient cultures.

Though there was a huge amount of travel in ancient times that until recently no one thought was possible. There have been more than a few expeditions using exact as possible replicas of ancient seafaring craft and technology... and they've been relatively successful. The Polynesians, The Chinese, The Vikings and many many other cultures covered massive distances by sea... so the old world wasn't as closed off as we think.

Even in terms of the migration of peoples... during the last ice age if some human migration theories are to be accepted... tribes of people crossed the Bering straight which would have been frozen over - known in that form as Beringia - and in what is thought to be several waves of human migration flowed down into the Americas. This is the reason that many suspect there is so much similarity between Native Americans and those of Siberian. It would have put a direct link to Siberia. The native cultures and indigenous religions (eg. shamanism etc.) are identical in many ways to the people of Siberia - though much of that culture in Siberia was brutally wiped out by the Russians.

Fascinating stuff. Once you start reading on this stuff you won't stop.

[Moi]

Such a shame he wasn't an Aussie. Now that would have been ironic

[PASmith]

No faeces sherlock.

[rivend]

Well it seems to me that way back when pyramid structures were around. Those cultures that had them used a lot of pictograph type writings and such.From Egypt to the Mayan world.And the connection between civilization's had to have some knowledge of each other in my way of thinking. And as we all know there are many theories on what was going on at the time.The extreme opinion is alien influence on them and the other end of the thought would be the migration by boat or ice bridge.

[Moi]

The management reserve the right to refuse admission

[forero]

I was really surprised when i seen this site. The number of languages that were in existence at one time but became extinct.
And this list is not complete. I'm sure more were lost in even more ancient times.
This site gives links and brief summaries about each language.Some here may find this interesting.
What i was wondering how did one language disappear from a particular area then the newer one sprout up.

http://linguistlist.org/forms/langs/GetListOfAncientLgs.cfm

It's not a complete answer but warfare and migration often had a large role in the killing off of languages. Irish, for example, which is near the edge, was pushed there largely by English invasions and interdiction of language(can't have natives speak a secret language, they could organise rebellion Solution? Ban Irish, force the children to be educated in English. Kill those who refuse.) and economic(English became advantageous economically - those who were poorest in Ireland were often Irish speakers, who then migrated to America and other English speaking parts of the world, after which they used only English). The same is true in India, Australia, the US and nearly everywhere that the British empire stretched to. Think of all the American Indian, Aboriginal, Gaelic and African languages that have died out because the natives were either killed or assimilated to English culture.

Other times,a language simply changes over the years with contractions of words and people being lazy/creative. Like a giant game of Chinese whispers.

Sometimes, cultural influence can do the same. French is slowly being changed by the American influence. Le jogging, flyer, etc etc. This can happen directly with English words being used instead of French words because people want to look cool(the same way English speakers use French expressions to look intelligent, fashionable). The grammar of French is also changing because of an indirect influence. American shows are very popular in France, but not everyone speaks English so the shows are dubbed in French. If the translator isn't a very good one he will sometimes use English grammar or construction with the French words and voilà a new grammar form is introduced to everyone who watched the show (and understood the strange new expression because it was used in context)

New languages are created through dialectalisation. Take the case of the Roman empire. It stretched its influence over many areas with many different languages. Under the Empire it was politically useful to speak Latin. Sometimes it was seen as so useful that people would simply learn Latin and raise their children as native Latin speakers. In isolation, when villages or areas were far enough away from others, there were pockets of people speaking Latin, each changing it in a different way until each dialect was incomprehensible to someone from another village or region. French and Spanish aren't uniform languages, but what a bunch of aristocrats agreed would be the standard. They took a bunch of dialects(sometimes just their own) wrote down some rules and words in a big dictionary and said "This is proper French. Speak it or else". Funnily enough, French as it is today, only really took hold as the native language of most Frenchmen after the First World War, when Frenchmen from all over the country had to work together and so had to spend years speaking the common language French between themselves - even thought it wasn't their native dialect. They taught it to their children and boom. One French language for one French people. (Leaving aside other languages like Breton, which the French government has been spending a long time trying to erase).

Technically, there are thousand of languages that are on the brink of extinction, with only one or two native speakers left. In today's world, minority languages are undervalued. It makes much more economic sense to speak one of the five main languages of the world than your own little language that you and 20 neighbours speak.

The great great majority of languages are oral. So once a group of people stop speaking that language it's gone forever.

There is a lot of debate as to how to define a language. It's hard to draw the line between language and dialect. Whose is to say, for example, that Romance languages -French, Spanish, Italian, Romanian and others- aren't just funny dialects of Latin? Many people who can speak one relatively fluently can read the others with a reasonable amount of accuracy. Should American English be consider a dialect, an accent or a completely different language? Should a person from Texas and a person from New York be considered to be speaking dialects or just with an accent?

Not having seen the giant pissing match that is the last two pages, I'd like to add that although the examples given in my post speak of modern languages, that is simply because these are the ones people are familiar with. Gaelic fairly handily wiped out pictish, the various native languages of the Americas were busy merging, coming into conflict and undergoing random changes(American Indian l33t speak). It's been going on from the dawn of language, and though it's unfortunate, it happens.

[adouglasmhor]

Well it seems to me that way back when pyramid structures were around. Those cultures that had them used a lot of pictograph type writings and such.From Egypt to the Mayan world.And the connection between civilization's had to have some knowledge of each other in my way of thinking. And as we all know there are many theories on what was going on at the time.The extreme opinion is alien influence on them and the other end of the thought would be the migration by boat or ice bridge.

It's just a very stable structure to make with technology of the time. Or make up some bollix about Atlantis if you want but most of the theories are in tinfoil hat territory.

[rivend]

It's just a very stable structure to make with technology of the time. Or make up some bollix about Atlantis if you want but most of the theories are in tinfoil hat territory.

Yes it is a stable structure. And yes some of my opinions on things do put me in the tinfoil hat territory i have an open mind. And i believe there were civilization's in the ancient world that had the technology of flight.

Or someone or something had to ability to observe this planet from an altitude above Earth.As from some of the shows on the ancient maps and the understanding of stars and movements. And not being locked in materialistic muddle and close mindedness of a robot like mentality.

[El Medico]

Rivend-I'd advise you to look more deeply into those old maps beyond TV shows.They aren't very mysterious at all.People presenting these shows leave out a lot of info-look at a good copy of the famous Peri Reis (spelling bad,sorry) map,with translations of the margin notes.The showing Antarctica as a continent w/out ice has been totally debunked.It's not uncommon for me to see books on old maps in my work.They are often not as accurate as portrayed in pop culture.

You can walk into the Sahara desert and find tools left there that are truly ancient and pre Homo Sapiens.If we can find these I must ask regarding supposed higher civilizations in antiquity-where's the garbage? A question I've asked for years which I note those in the field of archaeology also ask.We find everybody else's garbage.Millions of years worth.

There is some thought that some people may have produced kites with which to ascend a person.That's about it as far as flying in antiquity.The cracking of the Mayan writing laid to rest finally the absurd notion that there were guys depicted in spaceships once it was possible to read the glyphs surrounding them.

Astronomy doesn't require flight-Copernicus was earthbound,as were the Sumerians.

It's good to have an open mind-it's also good to look at both sides of an argument and see which stacks up.Sad to say,the evidence for any high tech or pre any known civilization is nil.Been there,done that.For years. so no robot mind here.

As an example of pop works,the world doesn't end in 2012 either,as any pre Columbian researcher will tell you,except one guy who wrote a book catering to a specific clientele.But now it's a big "truth" to some.That is to say,those who don't understand the cycles of Mayan calendric time.

Caveat emptor.

[stephenk]

Apologies for not reading the entire thread before posting, however, just wanted to make a suggestion:

I recommend anyone interested in the history of languages to read Empires of the Word, it's a fantastic survey book of the histories of every major language (and a bunch of minor ones as well). Probably my favorite history book I've ever read. It really puts the development of modern language in a historical, rather than technical, perspective.

[rivend]

Rivend-I'd advise you to look more deeply into those old maps beyond TV shows.They aren't very mysterious at all.People presenting these shows leave out a lot of info-look at a good copy of the famous Peri Reis (spelling bad,sorry) map,with translations of the margin notes.The showing Antarctica as a continent w/out ice has been totally debunked.It's not uncommon for me to see books on old maps in my work.They are often not as accurate as portrayed in pop culture.

You can walk into the Sahara desert and find tools left there that are truly ancient and pre Homo Sapiens.If we can find these I must ask regarding supposed higher civilizations in antiquity-where's the garbage? A question I've asked for years which I note those in the field of archaeology also ask.We find everybody else's garbage.Millions of years worth.

There is some thought that some people may have produced kites with which to ascend a person.That's about it as far as flying in antiquity.The cracking of the Mayan writing laid to rest finally the absurd notion that there were guys depicted in spaceships once it was possible to read the glyphs surrounding them.

Astronomy doesn't require flight-Copernicus was earthbound,as were the Sumerians.

It's good to have an open mind-it's also good to look at both sides of an argument and see which stacks up.Sad to say,the evidence for any high tech or pre any known civilization is nil.Been there,done that.For years. so no robot mind here.

As an example of pop works,the world doesn't end in 2012 either,as any pre Columbian researcher will tell you,except one guy who wrote a book catering to a specific clientele.But now it's a big "truth" to some.That is to say,those who don't understand the cycles of Mayan calendric time.

Caveat emptor.

Thanks for the very thoughtful reply.

[adouglasmhor]

Yes it is a stable structure. And yes some of my opinions on things do put me in the tinfoil hat territory i have an open mind. And i believe there were civilization's in the ancient world that had the technology of flight.

Or someone or something had to ability to observe this planet from an altitude above Earth.As from some of the shows on the ancient maps and the understanding of stars and movements. And not being locked in materialistic muddle and close mindedness of a robot like mentality.


http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Rires/mdr-mort-de-rire-284923.gif

[rivend]

http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Rires/mdr-mort-de-rire-284923.gif

Whats your problem?

[adouglasmhor]

Whats your problem?

Bad science and bad research being swallowed whole and propagated by no marks on the internet.

That and the fact they have taken the word gullible out the dictionary.

[rivend]

Bad science and bad research being swallowed whole and propagated by no marks on the internet.

That and the fact they have taken the word gullible out the dictionary.

What about the nazca lines huh huh ...

[adouglasmhor]

What about the nazca lines huh huh ...

What about them?

The alien theory is proposed mainly because some people find it difficult to believe that a race of "primitive Indians" could have had the intelligence to conceive of such a project, much less the technology to bring the concept to fruition. The evidence points elsewhere, however. The Aztecs, the Toltecs, the Inca, the Maya, etc., are proof enough that the Nazca did not need extraterrestrial help to create their art gallery in the desert.
http://www.skepdic.com/nazca.html

From the above please note I have little time for racists and cultural imperialists.

Scholars have theorized the Nazca people could have used simple tools and surveying equipment to construct the lines. Studies have found wooden stakes in the ground at the end of some lines, which support this theory. One such stake was carbon-dated and the basis for establishing the age of the design complex. Researcher Joe Nickell of the University of Kentucky has reproduced the figures by using tools and technology available to the Nazca people and which National Geographic referred to as "remarkable in its exactness" when compared to the actual lines.[3] With careful planning and simple technologies, a small team of people could recreate even the largest figures within days, without any aerial assistance.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazca_Lines

[adouglasmhor]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6113175402315678182#

[rivend]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6113175402315678182#



Hey great videos thanks for the link.Also i have never heard of Al Fry i am going to read more about him.

[forero]

Sorry,Lio-guess I missed the irony!

Good point about the reviving of near dead languages, I feel rather the same myself. Outside of scholars or possibly singers/musicians,what's the point of speaking for example, Irish? What's the point of doing anything? The end reason for everything one does is eventually "because it pleases us". There are many reasons to do so, not least being the affirmation of a separate identity from Britain(which interests many nationalists) The ability to speak more than one language is much like riding a bike, it's easy to do, most people can do it, it's enjoyable, has slight health benefits and can come in very useful in certain situations, such as being in a foreign country. Personally I regard people who are only conversant in English to be majorly disadvantaged when travelling. Apart from all the normal reasons one would want to be able to speak it, it provides interesting insight into history (damn ancients never took the time to translate all their documents into English)

So you can talk to the fisherman on the west coast? Among others. In the case of Irish, it's much more likely to be case of having a love for the language, or else simply wanting to have a private word that you can reasonably expect no-one to understand. The problem with English is that everyone speaks it:rolleyes:

And the spelling and its rules haven't been updated for what,hundreds of years? They have been updated very regularly and quite recently. Though I don't see what that has to do with anything, once it works, it works, no?

Outside of cultural preservation there's not much pragmatic value.
Minority languages have many practical uses outside of cultural preservation. Then of course there's the argument that nothing humans do is of any ultimate pragmatic value. Would you prefer that the government shut down all museums, theatres, art galleries, cinemas, sports clubs, television broadcasters, restaurants, take-aways, pubs, parks, libraries, casinos, gyms and sweet manufacturers?

People like languages, why pick on them specifically?:confused:

[liokault]

People like languages, why pick on them specifically?:confused:

People like languages, but not that much or we would not be in a period of loss greater than at any previouse time, and specifically in the UK we would not need to be throwing tons of cash at fundamentally dead artifacts.

Not saying that Welsh was a nearly dead language but I did find this interesting:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/7413105/Welsh-television-channel-attracts-no-viewers-for-200-shows.html

[El Medico]

What's the point of doing anything? The end reason for everything one does is eventually "because it pleases us". No argument from me there.There are many reasons to do so, not least being the affirmation of a separate identity from Britain(which interests many nationalists) I understand this.The ability to speak more than one language is much like riding a bike, it's easy to do, most people can do it, it's enjoyable, has slight health benefits and can come in very useful in certain situations, such as being in a foreign country.I was a foreign language major. Personally I regard people who are only conversant in English to be majorly disadvantaged when travelling.You're right.I hope you speak Spanish,
Mandarin,or Cantonese!You do seem to be ignoring the fact that English as a foriegn language is more likely to come in handy in more countries in the world than any other.I'd wager I'd have more luck in Africa,Asia or S.America w/English than I would w/Tagalog.Or Navajo. Apart from all the normal reasons one would want to be able to speak it, it provides interesting insight into history (damn ancients never took the time to translate all their documents into English)I think this relates to my reference to scholars.
Among others. In the case of Irish, it's much more likely to be case of having a love for the language, or else simply wanting to have a private word that you can reasonably expect no-one to understand. The problem with English is that everyone speaks it:rolleyes:Which makes it difficult to say rude things about people in front of them!:)
They have been updated very regularly and quite recently. Though I don't see what that has to do with anything, once it works, it works, no?OK,last I knew there were still all these archaic beginning/ending letters to spellings which didn't apply anymore."Once it works" is true,but it's much more practical to have a phoneticized spelling than spelling w/myriad "rules" that need to be memorized,or having pronunciations assigned to letters which are very different than the way they are pronounced in the language the letters are taken from.Pardon my ignorance,I guess all the things I see related to traditional music,including contemporary writings, must still be using the awkward outdated spellings.
Minority languages have many practical uses outside of cultural preservation.Such as what in the everyday world as opposed to those generally spoken? Then of course there's the argument that nothing humans do is of any ultimate pragmatic value.Well, I was speaking of pragmatism w/in the sphere of human experience/existence. Would you prefer that the government shut down all museums, theatres, art galleries, cinemas, sports clubs, television broadcasters, restaurants, take-aways, pubs, parks, libraries, casinos, gyms and sweet manufacturers? Pubs?!Sports clubs?!Thou heretic!

People like languages, why pick on them specifically?:confused:
Hey, I love language!And history.Just speaking of the pragmatic value of efforts to revive disappearing languages,which can include the co$t.I don't personally have anything against it.Then again,w/taxes as high as they are in my part of the US,and our roads and bridges in vast need of upkeep,I'm not sure if I'd want a bunch of my tax dollars going to revive an old indigenous language currently spoken by 10 people whose grandchildren could care less.

Hey, I know people who read Latin and Sankrit.Not exactly languages w/a living and growing tradition.I have no problem w/that.As you said,they enjoy it.

I used Irish as an example - figured if I ticked somebody off there was a chance they might at least be a distant cousin!(Grew up on the place my great-great-grandfather bought after he came to the US during the famine).

Curious,if you would be so kind-so what % of people in the country -(obviously we'll leave out the north)-actually speak Irish on a daily basis?And is learning it entirely voluntary,or it forced down the throat of schoolkids for the sake of cultural heritage/identity?(I've detested French ever since it was forced on us starting in 4th or 5th grade!Not that the heritage/identity thing would apply there.)Wondering what % actually has a command of the language as opposed to just knowing which is the lady's and which is the gent's washrooms.

Ok,I'm going to tune up and play Gol Na mBan San Ar and Sliabh Na mBan-please show our readers how they're pronounced!

Thanks,later.