throwing tips

[warren]

when it comes to executing throws against various uke's i don't usually have any problems,however one of my training partner's is as short as i am at 5 foot 3 inches but is about 4 stone (64 pounds )heavier than i am,when he throws his right punch his position is left foot forward in a deep karate type stance as we don't step in with the punch at our club.

the problem

i can get a half decent hip throw on this person but find it almost impossible to get a spring hip(hane goshi) or a sweeping loin(harai goshi) against him,the foot work i'm using is i move my right foot across near to his right foot, then as i turn in shoot my left foot between his feet, this is where i get my problem i can't get my left foot between his feet, if i enter nice and low i bottom out ie i can't get up again.
ok bring on the tips (no sleeve and lapel grips please)

[Aegis]

hmmm.... if you can get in for a good hip throw there should be no trouble getting a sweep or spring in there too. A common problem is that people see the addition of a leg technique as an indicator that they don't need to work as hard on kuzushi, which is totally wrong. Basically what I'd recommend is trying to leave the sweep until later, so go for the hip throw and add the leg once he's already starting to fall. The sweep shouldn't be making him fall, it should just be increasing the power of an already working hip throw.

[YODA]

Same height as you but 4 stone heavier?

Sounds to me like your trying to hammer in a screw :D

[warren]

with the uke being 4 stone heavier perhaps i should point out i'm only 8 and a half stone myself,spring hip is also a throw that i'm usualy known for being very good at,as i've already said i only really have the problem with this particular uke.

[YODA]

I would suggest that with this particular uke you should try another throw.

Don't try to hammer a square peg into a round hole.

If all throws worked on all ukes there would be no need for so many throws.

[Aegis]

Very true, some people are just difficult to throw with certain techniques

[warren]

that is a true statement,however if that paticular uke is your uke for a grading and you have to demonstrate the throws already mentioned or you have to use him to demonstrate the technique for others to see on a childrens class where your acting as the instructor while the proper instructor is away for example,
idea, how about if i enter for the throw as a floating hip throw(uki goshi) where your left foot is meant to be on the outside and then switch it to spring hip or sweeping loin.
come on don't just read the thread lets have some input for a stubborn tori

[Posiview]

I had a similar experience recently while doing left handed sweeping loin. My uke was about 3 stone heavier and 5 inches taller. I've been shown a variety of way to do sweeping loin, one way was to, essentially, get into hip throw and then sweep.

I did this on the tall/heavier uke from a left handed throw and ended up on the floor with my uke on top of me ready to pummle me!!

Instead of putting my left hip right throuth (hip throw), I was told to get into a position where my left hip was in the uke's stomach area, then drop my right leg by bending my knee and sweep with my left leg. The subsequent throw was one of the best I have ever done (left or right)!

In my opinion, you have to ask yourself "Would I do a sweeping loin on this guy in the street?" and if your answer is no, then I wouldn't worry if you can't do it in the dojo. There is, of course, nothing wrong with practicing it.

I'd ask your instructor to ensure your uke is of a similar weight and height when you grade.

[warren]

one of the problems is getting under this uke in the first place,as for asking for a taller uke when doing a grading you don't get a choice in the club where i train,my next grading will be for second dan and so what ever dan grades turn up on the day are all used ie you don't get just one uke and if that uke came out to strike as that technique is called for you definately can't say may i have someone more suitable,as luck would have it these paticular techniques are not part of my next grading its just that i'm stubborn and want to be capable of executing these throws against him.

[Tatsumaru]

I have a member of the club i go to who is not especially heavy, but he is a **** to throw! he resists with all his strength and leans in the exact opposite direction to the throw because he knows what it will be.

My sensei said that if he was so intent on giving me problems, i should give some back.....he told me to throw in a weakener ( a hard punch to the solar plexus) and then immediately throw. It worked a treat because he just wanted to fall down. Not sure if this would work in your position but it might be worth giving it a try.

[Sub zero]

you just have to get really low.

and go in strong.

[mike-IHF]

reply,

First thing to understand. Just about every kind of throw takes momentum from the attacker. If the uke your refering to is punching like someone does in karate, then tell him to attack like a real person. Noone on the street is going to atack you in a horse stance. If they want to hit you, they are going to put that power into the attack. So basically break him of the habit of punching like that, and you should find that the throw will come alot easier. "namaste"

[Aegis]

I very much disgree with that line of reasoning, because if someone then does attack you like that on the street, what do you do? Ask them to punch properly? If this is training for a specific technique against a specific punch, then yeah, ask him to punch in such a way that the technique can work, but certainly don't base all your training around what you think opponents SHOULD do on the street, instead work around what they COULD do. If you have an uke who punches like a karate-ka, then work with him and see if you can find ways around that style. Never know, it might save you some trouble at some point.

[cal_JJJ]

Howdy warren;

Things that I've done in this sittuation:

1)Do the equiv. hip throw and add the sweep on at the end just going threw the motion at first getting used to the low & heavy center of balance. Over time bring the sweep in earlier & earlier as your coordination developes.
2)I find that w/ a low & heavy center of balance that I have to scoop uke up w/ my hips more. Just going low can get you stuck; but going low, back through and below their center of balance, then up all in one scooping action w\ your hips often does the trick better for me than the standard teeter-totter method you use on taller people.

[warren]

hi to everyone who has offered their help,
jjj i'll try out your advice,i'll get to have a go at it on monday and thursday before i have to train with my short stocky mate on friday.
thanks again to all those who offered their help.

[Sonshu]

Try different techniques. Now I know there might be the instructors route saying YOU CAN DO ANY MOVE ON ANY PERSON still I feel there are some that just wont go.

Perhaps you may need to break his balance or break the man down with strikes but to me 4 stone is a big difference so adapt and try a different move.

Unless your instrutor says you must do it on him which is another issue?

[Sub zero]

Originally posted by mike-IHF
reply,

First thing to understand. Just about every kind of throw takes momentum from the attacker. If the uke your refering to is punching like someone does in karate, then tell him to attack like a real person. Noone on the street is going to atack you in a horse stance. If they want to hit you, they are going to put that power into the attack. So basically break him of the habit of punching like that, and you should find that the throw will come alot easier. "namaste"

altho throws do rely on manipulation of ur opponents momentum (otherwise the wouldn't be thrown.they just wouldn't move;) ) your oponents momentum does need to come form your opponents attack, you can direct them and then manipulate that momentum.

[Sonshu]

If the momentum is there then yes always do that.

But if not you need to beak him down to move him yourself, often the case for setting a throw up.

[warren]

the stance that my uke takes is left foot forwards,bent at the knee so he wouldn't be able to see his left foot with his right leg straight back with no bend in it,i've decided to block his right foot as normal and attack his left leg by doing the throw left handed as i can't reach his right leg for sweeps and spring hips.

[TheMachine]

Originally posted by warren
when it comes to executing throws against various uke's i don't usually have any problems,however one of my training partner's is as short as i am at 5 foot 3 inches but is about 4 stone (64 pounds )heavier than i am,when he throws his right punch his position is left foot forward in a deep karate type stance as we don't step in with the punch at our club.

the problem

i can get a half decent hip throw on this person but find it almost impossible to get a spring hip(hane goshi) or a sweeping loin(harai goshi) against him,the foot work i'm using is i move my right foot across near to his right foot, then as i turn in shoot my left foot between his feet, this is where i get my problem i can't get my left foot between his feet, if i enter nice and low i bottom out ie i can't get up again.
ok bring on the tips (no sleeve and lapel grips please) -- if you can't get a certain throw on this person, use annother throw. Another way to get a person into your desired throw is a good kuzushi and a proper entry

[saikyou]

good kuzushi, and an explosive entry. :D

[Hannibal]

Originally posted by Aegis
I very much disgree with that line of reasoning, because if someone then does attack you like that on the street, what do you do? Ask them to punch properly? If this is training for a specific technique against a specific punch, then yeah, ask him to punch in such a way that the technique can work, but certainly don't base all your training around what you think opponents SHOULD do on the street, instead work around what they COULD do. If you have an uke who punches like a karate-ka, then work with him and see if you can find ways around that style. Never know, it might save you some trouble at some point.

To be fair I do not think that that was the intention of the poster. In the street you would not choose to do technique 3.1"Defence against punch" because there is not time to postulate that deeply. The circumstances here are different - it is for a grading to show a level of technical competency. Warren has already identified that in a "live" situatrion he would not use this throw on the person concerned.

Warren, have a word with your partner and explain your concerns. Point out that you appreciate he is a little difficult to throw and could he be a little more forgiving for the grading. This does not mean he flips a la Aikido, but he is less resitant. If he says "OK" you are fine.

If howevr, he gets funny and uses the "an opponent wouldn't co-operate" argument then you are going to have to soften him up with a solid shot to remove his stability. A good solar-plexus or rib shot uses works for me. When he goes "OOOFFF!" and becomes floppy throw him. I gurantee he will be more receptive next time!

[warren]

to be honest if this person is one of my uke's during my next grading i most likly will not need the throws discussed,however when we train together on friday evenings our training always starts with 25 right handed throws,10 left handed throws followed by 4 favourite throws,sometimes we have other people our grade to train with so he doesn't uke for every throw,my problem is i don't want to change the order in which i do the throws plus when i do my next grading my instuctor will most likly want us to do the 25 throws at the beginning because he's nice like that,also if i strike to the stomach area allthat does is lower his center of gravity even more.

[Hannibal]

Yes, but it is lower with a lot less resistance. Use an uppercut motion and you'll soon find he'll lift a little. And the rib-shot should lift him a bit too!

You simply MUST learn to be flexible my friend! Don't learn the throws in a sequence - treat them as alive tools to be used when necessary. That way you should rarely get "stuck"

Good luck in your grading by the way.

[Scaramouch]

Does anyone think there are specific throws that work best on shorter opponents and then that there are those that work better on taller opponents? Or should you be able to apply all throws to all sizes? Would be interested to know if anyone has thought this problem through or whether its down to individual trial and error and what works for your body shape.

On initial thought, you would imagine that throws involving foot/leg sweeps (or sacrifice throws) would be more effective against shorter opponents, whilst hip/shoulder throws should be more effective against taller opponents. But may be thats too simplistic?

[Archibald]

I always thought some type of throws that require you to put yourself into there centre of gravity would be easier the closer they are to your height. Theres an american chap in one of my classes thats so tall, when i try pulling a hip throw on him i just back into his legs. But i suppose with enough trial and error, the individual can find ways around. Just my two cents anyway.

[morphus]

Haven't read all the posts. Anyway, is this drilling certain throws?
Or is it more free throwing?
If it is drilling certain throws you the help of your partner as all the throws are meant to be executed to different angles of attack & different sized opponants, your partner has to work WITH you in this case.
If it is free throwing then try a different tactic - different throw or set him up in a different way o that you get the position you want.

[warren]

to answer scaramooch i would say you should always choose the correct throw to suit your attacker in a self defence situation,to archibald i would say when throwing someone taller than yourself enter low and actually pull your uke down on to your hips keeping him in tight against you,now when you straighten your legs you will be able to lever your uke up so all that remains is for you to keep pulling on his arm and look over your left shoulder,this definately works as i use this method throwing people over a foot taller than myself,to answer morphus it is when drilling throws i suppose,but i only have the problem if i have to do all the 25 throws on this one uke.