Is Tenchinage Kokyunage

[aikiwolfie]

I saw someone say something about this in fuzzys thread about peoples favourite techniques. Why start a new thread? 'cause I can lol.

Going by my own experience I'd have to say tenchinage and kokyunage are one and the same.

There are important differences in the basic techniques that we teach begginers. But by the time a student starts performing higher techniques the differences are very blurred and even higher still there appears to be no difference.

[DexterTCN]

Osoti gari without the leg. :)

[aikiwolfie]

Originally posted by DexterTCN
Osoti gari without the leg. :)
Not sure what you mean exactly. I've never heard of Osoti gari and we don't use a leg (I'm assuming you mean to trip) in either Tenchinage or Kokyunage.

I love this place ... I'm learning Japanese now lol.

[DexterTCN]

My fault, I made a typo.

Osoto gari. A Judo throw. It is like Tenchi-nage, but uses a leg.

[aikiwolfie]

lol ok I did judo years ago when I was a kid ... could never remember the names and stuff.

[Dave Humm]

Define Koku..

'Breathing'

Koku Nage

'Breath throw'

Koku Ho

'Breathing exercise'

Naturally in all our technique we aim to breathe rhythmically, you could argue that we breathe in as we absorb Uke's attack and breath out as we apply our response - The very essence of Koku however, Tenshi Nage is not Koku. Tenshi describes the technique giving it a unique character within the aikido repertoire.

DaveH

[Dave Humm]

I just re-read my reply and didn't think I'd explained myself.

Look at Irimi Nage and Tenshi Nage. The techniques have similarities in the principles behind their application.

They both work on the top side of the body, they both involve Tori using a considerable part of either arm to make the desired effect in combination with hip and, depending upon which ryu of Aiki you follow, both applications can be very sword orientated.

We obviously breathe in and out as we perform the technique where a lot of our natural speed and power is derived from a state of relaxation as we execute technique.

Depending upon the nature of the attack, Tenshi and Irimi nage can look very similar especially when done at speed. A typical example of this is Jodan Irimi Nage where one is meeting Uke and absorbing his motion from Jodan, Uke is eventually placed in a compromised posture not to dissimilar to the latter stages of Tenshi Nage but the two techniques are in effect different.

The same is true of Koku and Tenshi, many of the principles apply to both but they are different.

DaveH

[aikiwolfie]

I wasn't actually thinking about it that deeply but now that you've said it does make sense.

I also noticed you use "tori" when refering to the person executing the technique, where as I have been using "nage". Is there a difference?

[Dave Humm]

I also noticed you use "tori" when refering to the person executing the technique, where as I have been using "nage". Is there a difference?
Not really, but the context of the word 'nage' really would suggest 'The person throwing' and Aikido isn't just about projection techniques but, I don't decry the use of the word 'nage' because I understand in some ryu of Aiki that's the correct term.

I personally prefer 'Tori' The word Nage then remains specifically for the description of throwing or projection technique.

Regards

[watto86]

Edit: Sorry I have no idea why this post is here. I didn't even have this thread open, let alone post in it.

[philipsmith]

Just a comment.

Many years ago I was at a seminar when Kitaura Sensei was asked "What is the difference between technique and kokyunage?"

He thought for a while and said "Well some kokyunage have names, and we call them techniques"

[koyo]

Like Dave says tenchi nage and irrimi nage are similar. Below I am executing irrimi nage however had I cut his attacking arm down it would be tenchi nage.

tenchi nage often called heaven and earth throw in that he is unbalanced downward on the attacking arm and his head struck upwards and backwards to the side.

A kokyu nage "version" would demand a commitment to the attack from uke that tori
could use to unbalance in a more subtle manner.

I could steel Kitaura shihan's words and say some techniques have names and done in a certain manner we call them kokyu nage.:hat:

We use the term tori as he who executes the technique.
Nage means throw or being Scots ..wife:evil:

[aikiwolfie]

My god this thread is a blast from the past. Can't believe I was here in 2004! :saz:

[robnj]

My god this thread is a blast from the past. Can't believe I was here in 2004! :saz:


Do you still study Aikido? Since posting that 6 years ago do you have an answer to your own original post?

[aikiwolfie]

I do still study Aikido. With a different club though. Currently I'm of the opinion that it's attitude and intention that makes the difference.

[JeetKunDo]

I've been doing aikido for a few years, and if you look at the translation of the words, andd ignore the technique, all throws (not joint locks) are kokyu nage.
Kokyu-breath
Nage- throw
When you throw using irimi nage, kote gaeshi, shiho nage, you're always taught to exhale as you throw and gain 'strength' through the breath. So you breathe, and throw, which makes it kokyo nage, but not in the technique. Does that make sense?

[aikiwolfie]

I've never been told to specifically exhale to throw someone.

[izumizu]

Everything is kokyunage

[afhuss]

We are taught that, generally, one should exhale when having a positive/forward motion (hence throws, as well as other stuff). This is a generalization and there are always derivatives in our curriculum. For every kihon and oyo waza we break it down and instruct how nage should breath through each step of the technique (this is often asked during yudansha testing during the teach technique portion). Anyway, this goes for katame waza as well as nage waza.

Generally speaking, if one steps past and across uke's centerline its technically an iriminage...if that isn't done then its a tenchinage or kokyunage (tenchinage being a named kokyunage).

Aikiwolfe,
Its more suggested to "specifically exhale WHILE you throw someone," more so than "specifically exhale TO throw someone." Not trying to get all into semantics but there's a difference (not sure if you meant that distinction). Think like a boxer or striking art partitioner...they breathe out when striking, think like zanshin but with breath.

Cheers
A

[aikiwolfie]

Thanks afhuss, I understand completely why you would exhale while throwing someone. It's just not something I've heard anybody in Aikido point out in a class while demonstrating technique. How to breath properly (relatively speaking) has been explained during specific breathing and meditation exercises. With the goal being that our breathing should always be even and calm.

[afhuss]

Yeah, for us...each basic technique, and basic exercise (we call it kihon dosa...kind of similar to aiki taiso), each step is either inhale, hold, or exhale breath.