locking in TKD

[TkdWarrior]

hmm well as i m here...i m intended to put this place on fire ;)
so just beware and be ready to answers :D

we do lot's of extensive drilling of locks, holds, grabs, etc etc...
those r more of aikido types of locks where we r on stand and oppnt' is down. not much with ground work(well i m not discussing it)
so there r one basic wrist lock which we r told to use it against punch(??)
now u guys tells me with all ur expereince that how that lock work on a punch(assuming the punch is front jab and it's fast)
i hav some of my observation to share which i'll share later on...

to my knowledge there is basic flaw(may be i picked up wrong) in doing the pucnh grabbing/locking technique i hav tried to correct it with all my methods and i found it working against boxer's front jab...

-TkdWarrior-

[TkdWarrior]

damn i forgot to ask the question in this thread oops...
ok the question was do u drill those locks/grabs enuff to be used in situation... can u use it?
i know as most of TKDists find it useless they might kick heads off but still(don't tell me that i know i m stupid enuff to ask :D)

[waya]

What type of TKD are you training that uses locks? It almost sounds like your instructor has trained in, or teaches Hapkido as well.

In Hapkido we definitely train them enough to use them, of course locking is about half the system too. lol

Rob

[Mike Flanagan]

I'm not sure I got the drift of your question but it seemed to be something along the lines of "can you use a wrist lock against a good jab?" And I would say that no, you can't. Someone who can punch well isn't going to leave their arm dangling around for you to play with. I would never try to just straight off apply any arm/wrist lock on a martial artist. But once you've 'softened them up' with some strikes the situation may then be different. Happily though I've rarely been attacked by a martial artist outside the dojo. The vast majority of my 'real-life' encounters involved people who did not do 'good jabs' or any other skilled striking techniques and were therefore much more vulnerable to joint locking, although I still think its a good idea to hit them first.

Mike

[morphus]

I agree with mike.
In training in a controlled enviroment you can pull it off, but in sudden/unexpected situation it's not likely, maybe once you've slipped or blocked the jab and you are closer in - if they've got hold of you(or you have them) in some way, it'll be a little easier(being at arms reach you know where they are) and even more so once you've stuck the head on them or some such technique - he, he:D

[TkdWarrior]

Waya, we practice Traditional TKD where locks/grabs/SD are taught with good detail, no my teacher is purist TKD...learnt from some of the best in TKD some name lie GM hyung or rhee(not confirm with name), Master Leong and some time with Gen Choi.
i know hapkido teaches most of locking techs...and they r good at kicking too... i admire HKD style...
Mike u r rite it would be useless to use any kind of wrist lock at u the body of momentum does't allow u to stop and u need much better reflexes... but that's the way most style teaches it... they let thierr hand free to grab but that doesn't happen when it's fast punch... i like ur approach with "softening up" i always prefer that too :D but with little bit of devising i hav used my locks against boxers' front jab in 90% sucess... but i guess i'll ask my teacher about this and then say something more about it...
-TkdWarrior-

[waya]

TKDWarrior, I'd say your school is pretty rare for a WTF oriented school. Most I have seen/attended taught nothing much for SD techniques, so I'd say you're lucky.

I have to agree, and disagree with Mike on using a lock from a punch. It's not an easy thing, but you can slide a deflect block over the arm into a grab and throw or lock the opponent. You'd have to keep forward momentum and use the movement alot like Sticking Hands (Chi Na I think??), but it's possible although not necessarily a real bright idea lol.

Rob

[TkdWarrior]

ummmm waya... i belong to ITF TKD...
and sticking hands is Chi Sau(WC), Tui Saou(Xyingyiguan)...
chi na(qin-na) is reffered to grappling skills in CMA...
Waya wat i think as i referred whenever we r grabbing we try to grab the hand when it's in momentum and it's momentum will prevent the same...
let's say u r in situation where u can't kick or pucnh anyone's head off u might try grabbing techs..and yea pppl doen't punch like boxers...but still they generate good power n speed.
so wat i want to ask wat's ppl approach when do locking..?
like mike said "softening up"...it's better approach..
wat else u can come with..?c`mon guys n gals...
i need more ideas to drills :(
i dunno why i like to control my opnt's and see them crying :D
-TkdWarrior-

[waya]

ummmm waya... i belong to ITF TKD...
Sorry, just waking up lol I thought you had said WTF somewhere.

let's say u r in situation where u can't kick or pucnh anyone's head off u might try grabbing techs..and yea pppl doen't punch like boxers...but still they generate good power n speed.

I don't often attempt a one strike end. Certainly I "hope" they will all have the potential, but in real situations that's very unlikely. I use locks, but only as a temporary portion of an attack, not holding my opponent for very long, just break them and let go.

so wat i want to ask wat's ppl approach when do locking..?

Softening is a good idea before a lock or throw.... Or just use speed vs. their momentum to apply the lock and do damage. I don't really have alot of solo training idea for locks though. I work with a partner on them so I can also feel how they work.

[TkdWarrior]

hmm i m kind a confused...
Waya i didn't understand about solo training for locks
IMO u hav to use partner for locking...??
Ming explaing it to me...
thnx for sharing ur thougts with me Waya..
-TkdWarrior-

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior
but with little bit of devising i hav used my locks against boxers' front jab in 90% sucess... but i guess i'll ask my teacher about this and then say something more about it...
-TkdWarrior-

Sounds interesting. Can you describe the technique at all?

Mike

[waya]

I was saying that you can't do locks solo.... Maybe I misunderstood but it looked like you were asking for ways to train locks alone.

Rob

[TkdWarrior]

*yawn* it's nite in here n i m going to bed...
i'll anser u tomorrow morning Mike.
-TkdWarrior-

[darlph]

Hi Tkdwarrior, I practice Tkd ITF also, and in the last 8 years we have added grappling to our curicculum. Locks and such develope with the rank. I believe you have a blended system that happened many moons ago through necessity. As out instructor had done. We go to seminars and learn 'new' things to us and try to pass it on.
The locks can used but only if opportunity arises. Each situation and your skill makes the difference. Believe this, when I could not figure out how to get a key lock I used a foam pool tube and taped it to be like an arm. Elbow open for bend. It worked!
Ideas for drills, watch Steven Seagal movies he like to use them in toughman situations.
Oh, got to go..........................

[TkdWarrior]

hi darplh nice to meet u...well my teacher basically teaches watever he found usefull and for TKD he takes reference from the encylopedia by Gen choi...
mike as u asked i m puttin here an excerpts from my mail to Master Keith Pascal...i hav asked him to comment on this and his comments are included in <<"">>
in ur article u said "it would be dumb to put lock on fast punch"
amazingly myself too shared the idea, ur idea about hitting 3 times first is amazingly wiered too...

<<I see so many folks try to grab a fast punch. I guarantee, if I am punching full speed, my punch can't be grabbed.>>

but wat i found out with a little devising of normal wrist lock u can put it againt fast punches
if one has a habbit of interception/checking then it's quite easy to put locks to fast punches too(i only figured out the font jab as they r the fastest ones)

<<This is my point. Do something to slow the movement down first ... anything. Gain control by checking, then lock.>>

if u start intercepting the front jab at the mid section of hand it'll normally reduce the speed

<<See, you understand the need to reduce the speed too ;-)>>

and from that u can move forward a bit and grab the wrist which is now stopped...

<<See, 'now stopped.' My point exactly.>>

and at this time u can go towards the hand(say rite hand side if the front jab was rite) circle around ur oppnt and put him in wrist lock...
if u say about flurry of punches then again this thing will work...like when u r doing flurry of punches u hav some idea to where hit and hitting first will lead u in hitting second n many more. but if ur first is stopped then ??
if u hav stopped first and u hav changed ur position the other incoming punching assault will be very less and as u keep circling ur oppn't ur oopnt' doesn't hav much choice...(u hav locks kicks to knee elbow to back of head/neck, lots of option there)
i hav put all this in idea to put my oppn't such that i hav a lead not him...
and this works amazingly good when u and ur oppnt's lead r opposite like ur's left and ur oppnt rite

acc. to him this can be used effectively in situations against boxer, WC's artist(here u hav to take care of legs too)...n so on...
all this applies on kicks too with a bit devising..

-TkdWarrior-

[Freeform]

Hi Guys,

I'm worried about some of these 'Self Defence' techniques being taught by TKD instructors. I've seen it done by guys telling their students these are 'SD' techniques but I see massive flaws in what they're doing.

Do you not thibnk its dangerous having some instructors teaching things they don't fully understand themselves?

Does this give students false confidence?

Col

[Spike]

There`s always going to be flaws in things, and no one is ever going to master a technique absolutely perfectly but giving students as much of an arsenal as possible seems sound advice

[TkdWarrior]

free form u mind giving us example...
anyways i think spike had said it quite rite...
-TkdWarrior-

[Freeform]

When an instructor has just 'seen' something and never really drilled it, or if he's seen something in a book and then tried to teach his students it. Hell, even if he thought it was a good idea and made it up himself without an understanding of the basic principles of the technique.

Thanx

[HKD]

Originally posted by Freeform
Hi Guys,

I'm worried about some of these 'Self Defence' techniques being taught by TKD instructors. I've seen it done by guys telling their students these are 'SD' techniques but I see massive flaws in what they're doing.

Do you not thibnk its dangerous having some instructors teaching things they don't fully understand themselves?

Does this give students false confidence?

Col
TKD is filled with this. i would say most TKD schools R like this. there so into the money and the money isn't in self defense, it's in sport TKD. They come through the ranks and all there into is sparring so all they teach is sparring. and yes it's dangerous, giving a false confidence. One of out local instructors found out the hard way that sparring and fighting R not the same, after her husband almost beat her to death a month ago. if U want self defense don't take TKD.

HKD

[TkdWarrior]

" if U want self defense don't take TKD."
hmmm...MA is not for sport...if it's sport it's not MA...and i don't think a sport can save ur life?if u don't understand simple concept, it's ur fault not ur art's...
the time u see any one Who do TKD u'll change ur thoughts...

-TkdWarrior-

[HKD]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior
" if U want self defense don't take TKD."
hmmm...MA is not for sport...if it's sport it's not MA...and i don't think a sport can save ur life?if u don't understand simple concept, it's ur fault not ur art's...
the time u see any one Who do TKD u'll change ur thoughts...

-TkdWarrior-
TKD has turned to the money which is sparing. there R some schools that work on more self defense than sparing the problem is finding them. as far as seeing anyone do TKD...... im a 3rd dan i have seen 2 or 3 people do it over the years. and have trained with jhoon rhee, Philip Rhee who is a great guy and countless grandmasters over the years. check out this months TKD times. whats your rank TKD worrior?

HKD

[TkdWarrior]

"TKD has turned to the money which is sparing"
i'll agree with this... u can see one thread which is "some serious discussion" started by me... it's very much like that..
it's cool u r 3rd dan... i m nothing more than yellow and i m doin TKD from last 3 yrs, before that i was in MT
i don't hav access to TKD times here in India...
-TkdWarrior-

[Helm]

Well can someone explain the difference between someone who isn't very fast or strong or patriculary good at a SD art and someone who is good at TKD...and who would be better suited in a SD situation?

In any case, i believe the large majority of SD techniques taught don't have any real place in the streets..
i mean comeon, catching a punch and tying them up in some over-complicated arm bar (even then u gotta hope they are at least not as strong as you) or from years of sparring dodge sideways and deliver a sharp kick to the ribs.

SD artists are purely dismissing sparring as SD because they dont do full contact and fail to see the benefit...

[LilBunnyRabbit]

I honestly don't see the problem with going after the money, unless you advertise it as self defense and teach stuff which is not only useless, but actually detrimental. I've seen a few schools that do this, but most of them have at least a few redeeming features.

[TkdWarrior]

helm u missed one point completely if the person is stronger than u then the arts judo, jujutsu or aikido or chin na wouldn't hav existed in first place...
about catchin a punch
first things punch is not a ball which u can catch as i myself hav pointed out that in my earliers posts..
second thing u never put it in arm bar(wrestling one)...
third thing is when u apply any wrist locking it controls ur wrist and ur ending up position is behind or side of ur attacker(so if the oppnt is powerful he don't hav much chances)
fourth thing every techniques is done at fair speed
fifth thing SD tacts works and practiced in almost real enviornemnt(oppnt resisting) same goes for ur sparring too..rite..
sixth thing is that u always can't go and kick ur oppnt' or beat him up(ask police guys mostly they r trained(if ever) to control)
even in real life u can be in situation where u just can't use kicks...

yup jimmy i agree if the person can deliver wat he advertise or wat he's askin money for...i don't see a problem here
acc to HKD he's talkin about competition in sparring(organisations involving i guess)
-TkdWarrior-

[HKD]

what im saying is most of the TKD schools have in big bold letters self defense on the front of there schools and they mostely teach sparing, sparing isn't fighting and gives a false sence of security. theres nothing wrong with teaching mostly sparing it's just most schools bill that as good selfdefense so people go out and think they can't B messed with and when they R they get hurt. i would think it would B a very bad feeling to try some sparing combonation and C the person just stand there or just puch U off like nothing. like i said earlyer a local instructor who i came through the ranks with was beaten up by her husband she does very good at sparring and her self defense techniques are s joke at best and all her sparring didn't do her much good at all.

HKD
P.S. im sorry if i come across a little hard on TKD it's just that is was a great art but it has gotten to money hungry and comp. driven and that will...is killing it. look at judo. 25 yrs. ago it was the great defense art, they went tward sport to gain popularity and the techniques went that way too, and it dropped off a great deal judo was once as big or bigger than TKD

[HKD]

Originally posted by Helm
Well can someone explain the difference between someone who isn't very fast or strong or patriculary good at a SD art and someone who is good at TKD...and who would be better suited in a SD situation?

In any case, i believe the large majority of SD techniques taught don't have any real place in the streets..
i mean comeon, catching a punch and tying them up in some over-complicated arm bar (even then u gotta hope they are at least not as strong as you) or from years of sparring dodge sideways and deliver a sharp kick to the ribs.

SD artists are purely dismissing sparring as SD because they dont do full contact and fail to see the benefit...

thats not true. most non-sporting arts have good and usefull SD techniques. every art will a throw away technique, something that just looks cool.
HKD

[TkdWarrior]

hey HKD cool dude, i think u r pretty much rite about that...sparring is bit different...normally my teacher always shows the line b/w SD n sparring... some of his students understand some not, i think most of his students r killer in streets not much hav probs except one(my thread about Some serious discussion) from that incident most of them hav learnt... finding out balance b/w both types...
PS HKD it's cool that u hav learnt with Rhee's, my teacher had a chance in training with GM Rhee ka hee n Master Leong then he had some days with Gen himself...
eh Master Leong is coming soon so i'll be lookin to meet him :D
-TkdWarrior-

[HKD]

thats cool he sounds like a good instructor. But thhere are to many instructors that teach sparing and then tell people that is good SD. there people need to know there is a difference between sparring and fighting.

HKD

[Tosh]

Just to throw my Haggis in here.

To be fair TKD does have locking but for stuff going up to Black the majority of stuff is release from grabs. These grabs are the dated ones where someone grabs collars or lapels and even after 6 years training I don't know many "effective" ones.

To be fair on TKD is whole development reaching black belt is to block and strike ( why do you thnk you practice 3-step , 2step, 1 step??? The whole SD aspect of TKD is step-sparring. learning to attack and strike in linear and static situations. I have also practised free sparring as it is meant no pads any techniques alllowed. The problem here is finding people who can exercise control.

With Kids this is easy. In general they want to win but don't want to inflict pain on each other. With adults hormones take over a lot of the time. Sometimes it's not worth it if students haven't grasped the basic control aspect.

In general look through the patterns most of the "contacts" ie points where people are in contact more than 1 sec are releases form grabs with a counter. To say that TKD has turned to sport is only majorly true of WTF. Otherwise why does the ITF run technichal seminars throughout the year??

P.s. I'll get off my ITF high horse now