[Choi Kwang Do] DSD (Dynamic Self Defence)

[bigalexe]

what is the DSD split, i didnt join CKD until late 2001 and didnt join this forum until a few munths ago. so would anyone mind telling me about this big split in '97
and people shouldnt be shot for thinking differently

:woo: :Alien: = :mad:

[Chris Yates]

:woo: i hope i wont get shot for this....lol

DSD.. a long time ago (more like mid 1998 if I remember right). There were about 20 - 25 instructors at the time in the UKCA, and the belt system went like this.

White, Yellow, Orange, Green, Blue, Purple, Purple/Red Tag, Red, Red/Brown Tag, Brown, Brown/Black Tag, Brown/2 Black Tags, Bo-dan Black belt, 1st Dan -------all the way to---- 9th Dan.

Gradings were three months apart and there was a change in the patterns introduced at the 10 year anniversary seminar in Atlanta in 1997. Each pattern had its own combination, and people were tested on both their pattern and their combination (because there is a difference). Speed drills were taught only at red belt and above. They had a new technique to learn every grade and it took 6 months to grade from bodan to 1st dan, 2 years from 1st to 2nd, 3 years to get to 3rd and so-on. Dan gradings were invitation only. When GMC introduced the in-between belts this was believed by many as unneccesary and a money making scheme.

At the time, CKD had no provisions for groundwork, and some of its close range and weapons defences were lacking in practicality. There also was very little progression in the black belt syllabus as every grade they only had two new patterns to learn and a few speed drills. CKD's solution to this is to put grades between black belts but not actually learn anything new.

10 out of the 25 instructors decided that CKD wasn't developing as it should do and were totally against the nature of the proposed changes. So they broke away and formed an instructor-led organisation called DSD. Their solution was to keep the CKD core syllabus (to brown belt / 2 black tags), and tweak it a little. They also introduced a module scheme where more senior students could learn basic ground work, take downs, stick defences, knife defences, control and restraint, and many other techniques. The instructors would then train in these fields and take their experiences into their classes.

Anyway, i'm going to find a Ju-Jitsu class now :P

[amiller127]

You wont get shot for it. But you did get a few things wrong.

Gradings have always been 2 months minimum not 3 :D

We never had to be invited to grade to a Dan rank in Wales. Dont know how it operated in other schools but your graded when you were due and ready for the test.

Actually yup, gonna have to shoot your for that error :woo:

:D

[Chris Yates]

Sorry, my mistake.... but we graded every 3 months minimum.

Ah well.....

Chris

[LilBunnyRabbit]

CKD's solution to this is to put grades between black belts but not actually learn anything new.

Not quite true. Each tag rank between the black belt dans there are new techniques and patterns, the reason the tags were put in was to give a structure to learning these, rather than make them all learned at once.


Dan gradings were invitation only.

Dan gradings to master level were, dan gradings themselves weren't, other than by the instructor of the school.


Their solution was to keep the CKD core syllabus (to brown belt / 2 black tags), and tweak it a little. They also introduced a module scheme where more senior students could learn basic ground work, take downs, stick defences, knife defences, control and restraint, and many other techniques.

There were also other changes, and a few subtractions. The only major change in that list is the ground work, for which the syllabus is being developed even as we speak.

[Chris Yates]

Each tag rank between the black belt dans there are new techniques and patterns, the reason the tags were put in was to give a structure to learning these, rather than make them all learned at once.

I apologise if this is the case, but how many new techniques can you learn without branching out......and that certainly is not CKD's approach. The day I see CKD incorporating groundwork is the day i'll be interested in going to see it.

Don't get me wrong.... I personally am not knocking CKD, as I have said before I didn't play an active role in the DSD split. But having spent the last 5 years in DSD I have had the pleasure of seeing martial arts from more than a few perspectives. What CKD doesn't encourage is for you to think about applications. Although there are a small number of very good CKD practitioners about there are also a large bunch of automatons who think they are learning self defence but are really just going with the flow.

The key to self improvement is to diversify. CKD is an excellent place to start. But you should not end there.

[Scaramouch]

I would love to see ground work appearing in the "Close Range" part of the CKD syllabus but personally I can't see it happening. As essentially a stand-up fighting style, the most I would anticipate might be added is a few basic takedown techniques, following up with hand/leg/knee strikes. Nothing wrong with that, its still valuable but its not really ground work.

IMO actual ground work/grappling (i.e. performing pinning techniques and physically manoeuvring someone into a limb lock or choke) is not something I could envisage that would go down well in the no contact, no sparring world of CKD. If you do CKD and want to add that to your fighting skills I suggest you cross-train.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

I apologise if this is the case, but how many new techniques can you learn without branching out......and that certainly is not CKD's approach. The day I see CKD incorporating groundwork is the day i'll be interested in going to see it.

Well, groundwork is currently in the syllabus as instructor's choice while they work out a formal syllabus, so yes, with the right instructor there is groundwork in Choi.

The basic takedown techniques already exist, as do several very basic locks, and are already part of the syllabus at higher levels.

However, as Scary says, your best bet if you want to do advanced groundwork training is to cross-train.

[Adam]

That's what's cool about CKD. It's apparently a style still in development willing to follow the modern trends in MA training. Thumbs up to CKD for that :)

[bigalexe]

actually at my school in the U.S. we do practice doing some ground work, like doing sidekick and heel kick on airshields and then going and doing punches on knees with the point of getting back to a standing position

[dancing dave]

The ground work in DSD is of more a grappling style. With the idea that with the new wave of popularity of Jujitsu based styles, that an attack may be of the form of taking the defender to the ground to fight. With Grappling, it gives you the option of restraining an opponent/attacker, instead of beating him to submission or unconsiousness.

[Daryl A. Lewis]

:cool: I agree with Dancing Dave. If you want to see the differences look at the D.S.D. sites as they give information about what they do. Dynamic Self Defence (http://www.dynamicselfdefence.com) Dynamic Self Defence Wales/Cymru (http://www.daryllewis.co.uk). :cool:

[Dave Rees]

I have only just started CKD, & the reason I started it was to learn striking & kicking, I have done Judo to blue belt (2nd Kyu) so I am fairly competent in throws/take downs & in chokes/strangles & locks. I think it is handy in knowing how to handle yourself if you get taken to the ground but you dont really want to be there on the street. If someone attacked me on the street at the moment I would throw them & hopefully they would not know how to break fall & the impact of landing on concrete would be enough to slow them down enough for me to either make a hasty retreat or kick the s**t out of them!!

[amiller127]

:cool: I agree with Dancing Dave. If you want to see the differences look at the D.S.D. sites as they give information about what they do. Dynamic Self Defence (http://www.dynamicselfdefence.com) Dynamic Self Defence Wales/Cymru (http://www.daryllewis.co.uk). :cool:

Now Daryl......

Wonder why you would agree with Dancing Dave???

Wouldnt have anything to do with the fact he's your father would it?? :rolleyes:

Hope your doing well and your ankle is better ;)

[Dave Rees]

Just a quick question, I may be wrong but is DSD based on CKD? If so I have looked on their site & notice that there is no mention of CKD! Is this politics in martial arts raising it's ugly head again?

[Chris Yates]

Hi all....

As long as there are Martial Arts, then MA politics are not far behind. Like Dave Rees describes it raising its 'ugly head' I will raise my 'ugly head' - and it is damn ugly!!! LOL

Sit back and relax Dave, while I write this fairly long post explainind what DSD is. But first, I know you are new to CKD and i'd like to say well done for finding some of the best punching ang kicking techniques in the world. This MA is perfect to complement your grappling and throwing knowledge via Judo.

Now onto DSD...and I tell the story from how I see it, and hopefully in an unbiased way.

In 1999, about half of CKD's Senior Instructors were somewhat disgruntled with proposed changes to CKD syllabus and the amount of money shipped off to International HQ with no visible benefit to the UKCA.

The proposed changes were:

- To introduce 'Intermediate ranks' between belts.
- To introduce a 'Tier' black belt system. (Grades in between Dan Grades)
- To introduce 'Speed Drills' at a lower rank and add more of them

Lest talk about the first change; Originally there were 13 Grades between White and Black. Adding intermediate ranks between belts, and a Gold Belt, increased the grades between White and Black to 18.

This change also shifted the proportion of 'Junior Grades', it put double the amount of steps to reach senior grade of Red Belt.

Say the average for a grading is £20, and a black belt grading £75. To get a student to black belt, they would have paid for 13 gradings plus a black belt grading..... that amounts to £335 in grading fees. Now it is £435, you make £100 extra for each student you get to their black belt.

Take a student to get to Red Belt. It would have cost for 7 gradings, now it is 14. (Insted of £140, it is £280).

Martial arts instructors know that not all of their students are going to get to black belt before they quit, so this way they get more money from more people.

Right, Second point. Intermediate syatem between Dan Grades. 1st Dan Grading used to be £95, 2nd Dan £115. Now there are grading in between Dan Grades. Each costs around £20, 6-7 grades between belts = £130 ish. So thats a way of getting regular money out of black belts.

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The third change - was to introduce speed drills at an earlie grade ----- :cool: I'm pleased....... Speed Drills are a very effective way of learning reaction and fluidity.

_____________________

The money that HQ got is not my realm, and I will therefore not comment.

But i hope this is an objective view of the facts.

Now to DSD

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The instructors that formed DSD felt that CKD had a very good system but was flawed because it is 'blinkered'. CKD does not have any ground work incorporated, or any 'informed' (and I use that word loosely) close range / weapon work. I once witnessed Grandmaster Choi Himself answer a question in a seminar like this:

Student: Dojunim, what are we supposed to do if we are thrown to the floor.

GMC: You shouldn't be on the floor in the first place.

CKD also had a very sparse Black Belt syllabus. 1st Dan level offered 2 patterns, 7 speed drills and one step sparring. 2nd dan level offered 2 patterns and 9 speed drills. 3rd Dan level offered 2 patterns and 9 speed drills.

There were of course, multiple attacker situations that Dojunim introduced but there was no structure to how it is incorporated.

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DSD is, in essence CKD with extra bits. Gradings are based on the 'core' syllabus. But there are modules that are not compusory but very helpful for a student's general development. We have had guest Instructor seminars such as:

- Bob Breen, Stick and Knife Defences
- David Rubens, Aikido Techniques
- Various Judo Instructors
- Pressure Point awareness
- Brazilian Ju-Jitsu

These modules make Black Belt level a lot more interesting.
_________________

I hope this helps Dave....... If you want a negatively biased view of CKD, (and a good laugh, well, it makes me laugh!!).... look up Koo Self Defence.

If you want to read how CKD reacts to this, (and I feel neither Senior Master should stoop this low) then follow the link ........ www.roger-koo.com

Just something for your information

[Dave Rees]

Thanks for that Chris, I have sent you a private message, PIL SUNG!

[Chris Yates]

Just thought I would put the cat amongst the pigeons and bump this up ;)

Chris

:D

[LilBunnyRabbit]

We do not do bumps on this forum, check the forum rules. Since this hasn't been used as a thread since July, I think it can be officially classed as dead.

And remember, don't bump.