Went to a Kenpo School tonight

[Triad]

And I must say I was pretty impressed.

The only background I have in MA is in Shotokan and watching the stances, techniques and so forth it looks like its way different than what I have been doing. In a good way though.

My question to you folks that practice American Kenpo:

Is AK just the techniques or do they teach different strikes, kicks, joint locks outside of what you see inside the specific techs?
Is there Kata? And the way the instuctor was teaching was geared more toward real life situations, so is this a tournement friendly style?


Thanks!

[bbcb_98]

I am a kenpo guy so here goes (these statements are based on my kenpo school only):

Kata's: They are in the Parker kenpo line. We do them in my school but they are not emphasized at all and are almost an after-thought. Used to as a drill to tighten up some of the moves.

Most of the strikes and locks are taught within a given technique but my instructor will isolate them if work needs to be done. One thing to keep in mind is to remember the techs are merely tools for the toolbox. Just because you might practice something against a right hook doesnt mean that is all it is for. Kenpo is about getting the bad guy in a vulnerable spot for him and a safe one for you. It tries to get people to think more about things like "Am i inside that punch? If so here are some good strikes from my toolbox" rather than "There is a round kick here is a specific technique for that" That is the jist of it anyways, the drills and practice will get you (hopefully) past the point of even thinking and just get one to react.

We also had lots of days that we practiced things way outside what is in the specified techniques. This will be something though that is instructor dependant.

Kenpo is geared towards self defense so it depends on the type tourney as to wether it would be good or not. The kicks are low (very low actually) and as such stink for point sparring. If the tourney is more about contact or something with takedowns you would be fine. If the tourney has lots of grappling then there are better arts out there for that.

I hope this helps.

[KenpoDavid]

I've been doing Kenpo for about a year and a half now, but not Parker's American Kenpo. However I have read books on AK and on other Kenpo's.

THere are katas and then there are the named technique moves against a specific attack. These are training tools as bbcb said. In his books Parker describes a thorough catalog of strikes with hands and feet - it is very extensive and complete. if you look at all 186 or whatever techniques, you should find all of them in there somewhere...

At my school we work under the idea that Kenpo is not really well suited for tournament fighting since most of our techniques target areas that are illegal in most tournaments. It's not impossible in fact I have seen some have success with it, but the way we train wouldn't lead to the most optimal tournament experience... we focus on real self defense. I would think that the principles of kenpo could work well in a MA tournament if you trained for it.

-David
www.kempokarate.com

[Flashing Dagger]

Hi Triad,

In my kenpo school we have the art split basically into three sections that all interrelate with each other.

Firstly and most importantly there are the "self defense techniques" that are designed according to different kinds of attacks (two handed choke, flank shoulder grab, right step-through punch, etc....) Each technique has a descriptive name like "knee of vengeance" and "thundering hammers". Since there can be literally hundreds of techniques in any system of kenpo (there are about 600 in Tracy's kenpo) we learn them not as hard and fast rules but as exercises to train our muscles and brains to respond by what Parker called 'spontaneous rearrangment" of basics. After repeating lots of techniques lots of times we begin to understand ways of movement and can react spontaneously.

Secondly we drill in basics like kicking, punching, stances and so on. The relationship of basics drills to techniques was explained by Parker in one of his books. He said suppose we have 5 basic movements that we can employ; A, B, C, D and E. A = block. B=punch, C= parry D=kick, and so on. The fighter who knows how to spontaneously reassemble and rearrange these basics from working on our self-defense techniques stands a much greater chance of surviving a street attack. In our studio we are encouranged to drill the basics to the point of not having to think about 'how' to do it, it just happens according to the situation.

We have katas and forms as well. These probably take up as much time in our kenpo studio as our techniques do, although I think that in most kenpo schools they are not as emphasized. A point about kempo forms : everything in a form should be understood from the standpoint of a self-defense application. A throw in a form really looks like a throw.

Another point about kenpo ; we don't do much sparring as our main targets even starting at yellow belt are the eyes, groin and throat. We do something in our studio that resemble sparring but starts our as slow motion fighting. We attack our partner in slow motion and they are allowed a counter attack. We speed it up until both of us can flow with movement in and out of each other's attacks and defenses. I don't know if other kenpo schools have this kind of thing or not.

Flashing Dagger

[Les]

Triad,

You asked some good questions, and the answers will vary from school to school, but here goes....

You're right that the stances are different from Shotokan, but not only that, Kenpo teaches you to block/strike/kick from point of origin. This means that after each block or strike, we don't bring our hands back to place them above the hips, but employ them for pinning and checking.

American Kenpo is primarily a street defence system, but it is made up of three main sections; Self Defence Techniques, Forms & Sets, and Freestyle.

The 'basics' are the fundamental physical moves employed to achieve a specific purpose. (Stances, manoeuvers, blocks. strikes, and specialised moves) Without good basics, nothing will be effective.

You learn the different strikes, kicks, joint locks, and many more things when you learn the basics. The syllabus is structured, (in our organisation at least), so that you learn the relevant basics as you progress through the system.

The Self Defence Techniques are 'set senarios' where you learn a particular response to a specific attack, but they are really designed to be benchmarks of ability. They are idea's to develop from, and you wouldn't necessarily use a full technique in the street.

The Forms and Sets, which you would know as Kata, are VITAL to becoming proficient in Kenpo. Forms and Sets are collections of 'basics' arranged together in a flowing and continuing pattern of motion. Practicing Forms is the best way to get your basics right. Sets are mini-forms, which emphasise one particular aspect of basics, i.e. Stance Set, Kicking Set etc.

There IS freestyle in Kenpo, including a whole bunch of Freestyle Techniques, but when it comes to tournaments, many of the Kenpo weapons are not allowed, like elbows, finger pokes etc.

Having said that, many Kenpo exponents have taken the trophy's at various tournaments worldwide. The IKC (International Karate Championships) were founded by Ed Parker, and were the biggest tournament there was.

Good luck in your Kenpo training, and if I can be of any further help to you, please e-mail me through this forum.

Les Grihault
AKKI Regional Representative, United Kingdom

[mekosho]

am a student of kosho ryu kempo (mitose lineage) and we have kata, not only do we have kata, we utilize our kata in our training, meaning we break down each movement in a specific kata and practice how we could use that movement in a real situation...

[RCastillo]

Hi Triad,

In my kenpo school we have the art split basically into three sections that all interrelate with each other.

Firstly and most importantly there are the "self defense techniques" that are designed according to different kinds of attacks (two handed choke, flank shoulder grab, right step-through punch, etc....) Each technique has a descriptive name like "knee of vengeance" and "thundering hammers". Since there can be literally hundreds of techniques in any system of kenpo (there are about 600 in Tracy's kenpo) we learn them not as hard and fast rules but as exercises to train our muscles and brains to respond by what Parker called 'spontaneous rearrangment" of basics. After repeating lots of techniques lots of times we begin to understand ways of movement and can react spontaneously.

Secondly we drill in basics like kicking, punching, stances and so on. The relationship of basics drills to techniques was explained by Parker in one of his books. He said suppose we have 5 basic movements that we can employ; A, B, C, D and E. A = block. B=punch, C= parry D=kick, and so on. The fighter who knows how to spontaneously reassemble and rearrange these basics from working on our self-defense techniques stands a much greater chance of surviving a street attack. In our studio we are encouranged to drill the basics to the point of not having to think about 'how' to do it, it just happens according to the situation.

We have katas and forms as well. These probably take up as much time in our kenpo studio as our techniques do, although I think that in most kenpo schools they are not as emphasized. A point about kempo forms : everything in a form should be understood from the standpoint of a self-defense application. A throw in a form really looks like a throw.

Another point about kenpo ; we don't do much sparring as our main targets even starting at yellow belt are the eyes, groin and throat. We do something in our studio that resemble sparring but starts our as slow motion fighting. We attack our partner in slow motion and they are allowed a counter attack. We speed it up until both of us can flow with movement in and out of each other's attacks and defenses. I don't know if other kenpo schools have this kind of thing or not.

Flashing Dagger

Your last paragraph is a hell of an idea! I also do that myself. It's good you let the students experience the feel for themselves.

Respects

[shadow_disciple]

at our training, we split the week into sparring, self defense, forms (kata's) and weapons. My instructor teaches all of them equally, and feels it important to learn each one of these aspects.

[Kempo Fighter]

at our training, we split the week into sparring, self defense, forms (kata's) and weapons. My instructor teaches all of them equally, and feels it important to learn each one of these aspects.

My sensei does the same exact thing, only we include grappling weekly.

[Colin Linz]

Hi Triad,
Another point about kenpo ; we don't do much sparring as our main targets even starting at yellow belt are the eyes, groin and throat. We do something in our studio that resemble sparring but starts our as slow motion fighting. We attack our partner in slow motion and they are allowed a counter attack. We speed it up until both of us can flow with movement in and out of each other's attacks and defenses. I don't know if other kenpo schools have this kind of thing or not.

Flashing Dagger
Although I don’t do an American form of kempo we do similar a similar form of randori. Half speed, light contact and relaxed atmosphere. We also do many other forms of randori that may be limited in some way for specific training goals, right up to full randori. I try to include some form of randori training every lesson; the type of randori training depends on the experience of the students. We also use eyes, throat and groin as targets, I would be surprised if a self defence based art didn’t use these.

[Colin Linz]

I’ll butt in again, it might be of interest; if not just ignore me. While we do have a few forms we don’t call them kata, we call them hokei. Some people do call them kata, but it is a different kanji than the kata of Karate. The kanji for kata that Karate uses means a mold. This implies that the each person’s form will be the same, as it has come from the same mould. The kanji we use means something like a set of principles. The difference being that there is recognition that as humans we are built differently and may move differently. What is important in the form is that you understand the principles of the individual techniques that make it. Of course to learn them though, you begin by copying your teacher. This where the principle of shu ha ri comes into effect. I don’t know how this concept sits with American Kenpo, what are your thoughts?

[kenpoguy]

there have been some very good post on this matter by some knowledgable poeple. I myself, have been doing kenpo with the Parker system as well for a few years now. For quite some time I was not even using a belt system, meerly for the following reason. It is for the most part geared towards self defense, as its been said, and with each technique, there are a series of real life oriented movements. If in a real fight, pieces of these techniques may be used and adapted as needed. As far as katas go, they are truly not emphasised, but mainly practiced for form, balance, and speed. They are NOT something youd do in the street, however. Moving on to the tournaments, I have competed in the occasonial one, and have done just fine. Your skill in tournaments depends on much of what your instructor prepares you for. I recently got 3rd in the nation for point sparring in a fairly nice sized budweiser tournament. The thing is however, tournaments are not realistic themselves, so many kenpo instructors discourage them. You are not going to "point spar" soemoen on the street, and not going to use "light contact" to make it look like you appear to hit them. Ive fought too many point fights to know that more often that not if you hardly tap the guy it shakes him up, and eventually makes him hesistant and probably lose the fight. On the other hand some schools encourage it, because it is a big money maker for them. These tournaments are in large part about money, and the more peopel that attend the more they and the school make. Which can be good or bad, but typically more bad because the schools make the students think that their tournament friendly skills will DEFINETLY work in the street.

[wildwills]

And I must say I was pretty impressed.

The only background I have in MA is in Shotokan and watching the stances, techniques and so forth it looks like its way different than what I have been doing. In a good way though.

My question to you folks that practice American Kenpo:

Is AK just the techniques or do they teach different strikes, kicks, joint locks outside of what you see inside the specific techs?
Is there Kata? And the way the instuctor was teaching was geared more toward real life situations, so is this a tournement friendly style?


Thanks!

Triad,

As a former karateka in Shotokan I'd like to give a shot at answering your question. I don't do AK, but one thing you'll notice about most styles of Kenpo is that there are more circular movements and it's not as linear as Shotokan. Also Kenpo emphasizes more fast, repeated strikes; whereas in my old Shotokan dojo, it was the old "one-strike, one-kill" philosophy.

And yes, most Kenpo styles have kata, but in most cases, not as many as Shotokan. Some styles of Kenpo also incorporate some sort of Jujitsu/Chin Na/Aiki techniques for joint/wrist locks, throws, break-falls, rolls, etc.

Hope I was helpful.

[tonirocky]

i do a style called go rin do kempo which appears to be very different from the descriptions of these threads. maybe i dont understsnd what self defence means but my classes dont seem to encourage defence its very much attacking with maximum force finish the fight fast. an often used phrase in our dojo is you only have 1 gear forwards. we have 4 katas but very little emphasis on them. most of our classes are 1 hour drilling 1 hour sparring.

[Tigermoth]

Our instructor was originally a Tae Kwon Do guy. He switched to Kenpo because he believed it was a more complete art. He did however bring with him the importance of kata and the realization that you can blend and borrow. He's not afraid of teaching strikes, maneuvers, and holds from other systems if they work. We practice our basics(blocks/strikes/kicks/manuevers/forms....) religiously every day before anything else. If you don't have good, strong basics you have nothing.