Kata – Love it or Hate it?

[Sonshu]

Now this is always a good subject to get the tempers flaring on Karate practitioners. I for one do not like Kata and really do struggle to see the effective uses for “SOME” moves in it, there are many horse style downward cross armed blocks designed to stop a front kick……

I consider this to be well, a pretty useless technique – so my question is why teach stuff to people that does not work…….I know I could not stop a decent kick with this and I have been told on many occasions I am a strong guy!!!!

When I quizzed someone on this technique – I am using this as an example as there are other bad ones - Why teach it at all as if in a pressure situation a student does this and gets his crown jewels re-arranged its fight over?

What are other peoples views as some Kata are ok but the most have things that don’t work, In most of the arts I have trained there has been not to much Kata which has been a real blessing and now when I do it I find there are always a few moves that are almost there just to link it to another move that works. I can see the use in teaching movement and spacial awareness but the only answer I get is “that’s the way it is or that’s how the Kata is”

I for one think if you make a Kata it should be on moves that are simple and effective – after all these are the moves that I want to drill and to teach as if a student “god forbib” was attacked at least they have something to offer in defence!

Over to you guys & girls?

Also before anyone starts on the you have not done Kata correctly or any of that Crap I have and most of it is useful so can I have some real answers and no moral high ground bull please!!!

Your shout now????

[Ozebob]

Hi Sonshu,

Now this is always a good subject to get the tempers flaring on Karate practitioners. I for one do not like Kata and really do struggle to see the effective uses for “SOME” moves in it, there are many horse style downward cross armed blocks designed to stop a front kick……I consider this to be well, a pretty useless technique – so my question is why teach stuff to people that does not work…….I know I could not stop a decent kick with this and I have been told on many occasions I am a strong guy!!!!


I don't think there is anything to get upset about. Kata was intended to transmit responses to close quarter attack from teacher to student. Not all teachers understand the content but good students work it out for themselves when they try hard enough. I've never seen a karateka block a front kick with a downward cross block because the 'block' was not intended to be used that way IMO.

When I quizzed someone on this technique – I am using this as an example as there are other bad ones - Why teach it at all as if in a pressure situation a student does this and gets his crown jewels re-arranged its fight over?

I guess that not everyone should be teaching karate.

What are other peoples views as some Kata are ok but the most have things that don’t work....

Kata is a tool, there are a stack of books, videos, and seminar presenters around to help anyone that wants to learn. Have a look around!

Regards,
Ozebob

[Andy Murray]

Different terminology, but I have to say I'm pro Kata. If you disagree, then you've never had anyone good enough to turn you on to Bunkai/applications, or you've not put in the time yourself as Bob has said.

Kata are not be all and end all answers for every situation you may meet in life. Merely textbooks with suggestions, and ideas to make your brain work. Wassamatter? Too hard???

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Sonshu
Now this is always a good subject to get the tempers flaring on Karate practitioners. I for one do not like Kata and really do struggle to see the effective uses for “SOME” moves in it, there are many horse style downward cross armed blocks designed to stop a front kick……

I consider this to be well, a pretty useless technique – so my question is why teach stuff to people that does not work…….I know I could not stop a decent kick with this and I have been told on many occasions I am a strong guy!!!!


Right here is the beginning of your problem (and one shared by a lot of people). The movement you described may (or may not) be effective in stopping a front kick ... but I'd bet dollars to donuts that it wasn't *designed* for that purpose. There are many possible applications from chokes and locks to takedowns and disarms. And that's not even taking into consideration possible weapons applications.

Also, in application, you may not drop into a horse stance for some techniques or, for others, you don't cross your arms ... some aspects of the kata are put together in such a way to work different muscle groups and train specific attributes ... not necessarily as an application.



When I quizzed someone on this technique – I am using this as an example as there are other bad ones - Why teach it at all as if in a pressure situation a student does this and gets his crown jewels re-arranged its fight over?

What are other peoples views as some Kata are ok but the most have things that don’t work, In most of the arts I have trained there has been not to much Kata which has been a real blessing and now when I do it I find there are always a few moves that are almost there just to link it to another move that works. I can see the use in teaching movement and spacial awareness but the only answer I get is “that’s the way it is or that’s how the Kata is”

That response is, IMHO, one that a poor instructor would give. Or an instructor who doesn't understand it to begin with. People like this *shouldn't* teach kata. All they do is propogate their own lack of understanding.

Kata (juru, langkah, sayaw, forms ... whatever terminology you want to use) are *very* effective training tools *when they're properly taught.* When they're improperly taught then they're next to useless. I would agree that in a lot of schools, kata are improperly taught. But that doesn't invalidate the effectiveness of the kata as a training tool.

And, never lose sight of the fact that it is *just* a training tool. Just like anything else.

Also, *every* art/style/system/instructor uses kata ... even if they (or the students) don't perceive it as such. In boxing, working on a jab/cross combo is a type of kata. In Shootfighting, working on lock flows is a type of kata. The practical application of these "kata" is pretty readily evident.

The thing that gets me is this: people often say, "Well, I would *never* do that in a fight so it's not practical for me to train it." Boxers don't get in the ring with a jump rope ... so should they not jump rope in training?

Some kata are chock full of practical application. Others are more subtle in their practicality ... like jumping rope. They develop attributes that *are* of practical use.

I for one think if you make a Kata it should be on moves that are simple and effective – after all these are the moves that I want to drill and to teach as if a student “god forbib” was attacked at least they have something to offer in defence!

All the kata I've ever seen *are* based on moves that are simple and effective ... when they're properly interpreted and taught.

Unfortunately, in this medium, it's hard to illustrate this very effectively :)


Over to you guys & girls?

Also before anyone starts on the you have not done Kata correctly or any of that Crap I have and most of it is useful so can I have some real answers and no moral high ground bull please!!!

Your shout now????

Well ... I think I probably took the route you didn't want to hear. But it's my honest opinion so I guess you'll just have to cope ;)

Mike

[TkdWarrior]

sonshu... u missed the important part about kata's/forms...
u know why they wer formed THAT way?? all those forms were written when there was fudalism in china(i m talkin from KF prespective) there's a chance that person knowing MA won't practice with anyone else(may be because he doesn't want to teach other than his/her family members) so those ppl might hav devised a mean to learn all movements with rite footwork....
yup u can can learn without form but footwork doesn't come that easy to most ppl(forget the exceptional cases like me :D )
u can take part of form/kata n can fight with it...if u closely observe...
if u ask me doing forms r pain in $$$ but i luve to do it...
-TkdWarrior-

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by Sonshu
Now this is always a good subject to get the tempers flaring on Karate practitioners. I for one do not like Kata and really do struggle to see the effective uses for ?SOME? moves in it, there are many horse style downward cross armed blocks designed to stop a front kick??

You're right, that is a crap application of the movement. But the truth is that movement has many very good potential applications. But the one's that are practiced in most karate dojo aren't very good. But your teacher was probably never taught anything else so all he/she can show you is what they were taught. There is now much useful information on effective kata application around. Have a dig around, see what you can find. What country are you in?

Also bear in mind that many of the kata have changed dramatically in the past 100 years. So the version you're now practising may never have had effective applications. Sometimes its necessary to look at older versions to see their practicality.

I contend that no karateka would doubt the value of kata IF they truly understood their meaning.

Mike

[pgm316]

Hate!

I'm sure there is value to it, but its not the way I want to train. It was a solution to not having a sparring partner, so why do it if you have a sparring partner? I don't like learning set routines, the value is very questionable when a fighter must be so flexible. I must admit it can be good for teaching footwork.

[Spike]

Quote:
It was a solution to not having a sparring partner, so why do it if you have a sparring partner?

The reason kata was created, as far as I understand it, was partly to allow you to remember all the moves, partly to train you`re muscles to perform techniques in the corrrect way. Building up motor reflex so you can fight without having to take the time to think.

I don't like learning set routines, the value is very questionable when a fighter must be so flexible.

The value is the same as it`s always been, to train your body to move in a certain way.

It`s also a great exercise to build up your muscles and fitness, if done under d.t.
Plus I think it`s great fun and looks amazing if done properly

[Andy Murray]

The trick is 'not' to become the Kata, but to let the Kata 'become 'you'.

Elsewhere on this forum we have had people debating whether sparring is valid or not.

C'mon guys n gals, these things are tools to use or abuse as needs see fit.

If you take away Kata, Drills and sparring, you ain't got a whole lot of Martial Arts left.

[KarateKid1975]

Andy Murray wrote:

"Different terminology, but I have to say I'm pro Kata. If you disagree, then you've never had anyone good enough to turn you on to Bunkai/applications, or you've not put in the time yourself as Bob has said.

Kata are not be all and end all answers for every situation you may meet in life. Merely textbooks with suggestions, and ideas to make your brain work. Wassamatter? Too hard??? "

I totally agree with you, Andy. I like the way you put it "bluntly". Good job :) I've been in so many kata/hyung arguments, and this is the best statement I've seen yet. I just regret not thinking of it LOL.

[Andy Murray]

Thanks Laurie ;)

[Mike Flanagan]

Hi Sonshu

I see you're in the 'Heathrow area'. In which case check out Alan Platt in Woking.

http://websites.ntl.com/~alan.platt/home.htm

He's a very pragmatic kind of guy and can show you some very effective kata applications. But watch out, the fellas in his club are even uglier than me!

Mike

[KarateKid1975]

Your welcome Andy ;)

[Andrew Green]

Personally I think that if the only function you see in kata is extracting applications you've missed the point completely.

As to there effectiveness, that depends a lot on the practice habits of the person in question.

They are very beneficial, but many right them off long before that benefit is realised. Kata are more of a long term training tool.

They are so that you can improve and retain skills when you are forced to train alone. Kata are an individual training tool. They are not the best use of time when you get together with a group, however they must be learnt as a group.

Remember kata are a means to an end, not the end itself. Kind of like a boxer deciding that the primary focus of his bocing training should be his skipping... Why take boxing? Skipping is just a tool and kata is just a tool.

[pgm316]

Ok, I’ll admit I was wrong, kata’s can be another useful learning tool to practise techniques. What’s put me off kata’s to a large extent is people’s obsession with the kata being absolutely perfect, spending too much of our limited training time perfecting them. Like the object of the exercise is learning to do the kata perfectly instead of using the kata to practise moves. But that’s not the kats’s fault I guess. I do practise some patterns to help with learning moves and footwork. Although on my own I prefer to practice techniques in a more random way, with the use of a little imagination.

But thats just my thoughts, I can understand why other people rely on them more.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Andrew Green




They are so that you can improve and retain skills when you are forced to train alone. Kata are an individual training tool. They are not the best use of time when you get together with a group, however they must be learnt as a group.



I was wondering why you say Kata must be learned as a group Andrew? Or am I reading a meaning you didn't intend?

[johndoch]

I think that katas (they called them forms in my kung fu class) are a tool to balance the mind using the body. Katas are not just technique based but IMHO mostly meditation in movement, similiar to Taiji quan but more external. Ive been too one karate class in my life so Im no expert but I think that they are very important for the arts as they direct power using your mind. When your mind is in harmony with your body you can achieve true power. I think that is why katas can either be hard or sort, external or internal.

[stump]

I always thought of forms or katas as nothing more than a physical textbook or alphabet to enable the art to be passed on from teacher to student.

Like a textbook you learn the move, drill it in context and make it your own.

[pgm316]

There seems to be very different purposes to the various kata's/forms/patterns. Some of the Kung Fu ones I practice are meditation/ health forms, others are just practising moves and some a combination of the two.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by pgm316
There seems to be very different purposes to the various kata's/forms/patterns. Some of the Kung Fu ones I practice are meditation/ health forms, others are just practising moves and some a combination of the two.

Yup. I think that different forms focus on and develop different aspects.

The thing that gets me is that, application-wise, a lot of people never look past what their instructor told them about the applications in a given form.

Their instructor gave them 1 or 2 examples (which may or may not be all that practical in terms of application) and the student never even thinks to look past those basic examples ... and often, those examples are meant more as a rudimentary illustration to help the student get the *movement* correct rather than a practical application.

Personally, I think that the student should take it on him/herself to explore the form(s) on his/her own. When exploring, don't stick to the precisely taught form (though that should, of course, be explored as well). Run the form fast, slow, and in-between. Run it on the high line and the low line. Run it while on your back (now the footwork becomes kicks and takedowns). Exaggerate everything ... make all the motions very large. Or just exaggerate one aspect (like the footwork). Turn it around and make things much smaller and more compact than usual. Put a stick, knife, or other weapon in your hand and see where it may be used in the form. Put a weapon in a sheath (or equivalent) and see where, within the form, you may be able to draw it from various locations on the body. Think "outside the box." Consider ways that *each* movement may be used as a lock, strike, takedown, etc. with all the various exaggerations, variations, and weapon stuff.

You'll find a lot of things that *don't* work within the movements of the form. They're contrived or impractical. But you'll also find a lot of things that *do* work. And you'll think, "Wow ... it's been sitting there the whole time." And you'll tell others, "You practice that lock in the Gichigoo Form." (Gichigoo being a made up term, btw) ... and they'll look at you and say, "What!? That's not in the Gichigoo form." Then you'll show them and they'll be flabbergasted that they never thought of it before ... and they'll think you're incredibly good to have spotted it (they, of course, don't need to know about the time and effort you put into that form to find it :) )

Anyway ... just my 2 bits on that.

I think that the most important thing, though, is that when forms are taught, they should be taught with their specific area of focus clearly stated. If a form is intended, for instance, to develop balance then that should be stated from the get-go and when the students train, they should always be focusing on developing their balance. Any applications in this specific form would probably be icing on the cake ... *after* the balance is sufficiently developed.

Mike

[pgm316]

Originally posted by pesilat


You'll find a lot of things that *don't* work within the movements of the form. They're contrived or impractical. But you'll also find a lot of things that *do* work. And you'll think, "Wow ... it's been sitting there the whole time




Mike, I've heard similar things said before about Kata's. I can't understand the reason for practising something that has a lot of movements that you don't feel effective or movements that you don't fully understand.

I must have been wrong in thinking kata's where simply made up of moves you already practice?

The Kung Fu forms we practice (unless meditative) are just a series of our techniques linked together.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by pgm316

Mike, I've heard similar things said before about Kata's. I can't understand the reason for practising something that has a lot of movements that you don't feel effective or movements that you don't fully understand.

<g> Part of the point is to explore them and find what *is* effective and gain understanding of the movements :)

I must have been wrong in thinking kata's where simply made up of moves you already practice?

They're moves you already practice ... sure. But they're not always evident in the basic movements of the forms.

The Kung Fu forms we practice (unless meditative) are just a series of our techniques linked together.

Absolutely. But there are dozens of possible applications for each movement. There are often applications in the motions *between* the obvious techniques. *Between* the "positions."

IMHO, the learning of a form (regardless of the art/system/style) is just the first step. From there, the form must be explored. In the end, it's not what you are taught that makes you a good martial artist. It's what you *find* for yourself. You have to explore it yourself and find your own expression of each movement, each *moment* of the form ... and your own expression of the form as a whole. This is, IMO, a microcosm of training in the martial arts in general. This same progression is, for me, what the martial arts is all about. It's about learning, exploration, and expression.

We each start with mimicry. We learn from our instructors and we mimic our instructors. But if we never leave that stage, then we're just copycats. Martial art, like any other art, should, IMHO, be about self-expression. I have to find my own understanding of the material (including, but certainly not limited to forms) ... not just parrot my instructor's teachings.

At least, that's what MA is to me.

Mike

[KarateKid1975]

Mike wrote:

<Personally, I think that the student should take it on him/herself to explore the form(s) on his/her own. When exploring, don't stick to the precisely taught form (though that should, of course, be explored as well). Run the form fast, slow, and in-between. Run it on the high line and the low line. Run it while on your back (now the footwork becomes kicks and takedowns). Exaggerate everything ... make all the motions very large. Or just exaggerate one aspect (like the footwork). Turn it around and make things much smaller and more compact than usual. Put a stick, knife, or other weapon in your hand and see where it may be used in the form. Put a weapon in a sheath (or equivalent) and see where, within the form, you may be able to draw it from various locations on the body. Think "outside the box." Consider ways that *each* movement may be used as a lock, strike, takedown, etc. with all the various exaggerations, variations, and weapon stuff.>

Exactly. In TSD, my instructor told us or showed us what a certain move in a hyung is for and let us try. Now that I do TKD, they don't do that, but I still have a good habbit of "digging" into even the simplest moves to find different applications for them. I told someone what the second move of Taeguk Sa Jang was for, and I totally blew them away. They never thought of the idea of finding out what the moves are for. No one told me either. I figured it out for myself.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Andy Murray


I was wondering why you say Kata must be learned as a group Andrew? Or am I reading a meaning you didn't intend?

Well one on one works too...

Just that you can't learn them alone is all that I meant.

We do kata all at the same time, but everyone off doing it on there own. I usually teach it to one person at a time too.

Guess group wasn't really the right word there.

[darlph]

I love kata to relax with. I put on some music and put them together and "flow" with it. I am not a fighter but an observer most of the time with the adults and at tournaments. You learn control and focus with them, balance, how to make your technique look and be more powerful. There are times I hate doing them, I admit. But it sure is nice to see how a block transends into a kick or punch. Believe it or not, you have learned more "katas" than you realize just watching how your next opponent moves and the possible attacks and blocks you'd use against them. It could be 3 moves or 100, it still is a prearranged set of movements.
OPne of the things I like to do is I'm bored with a particular kata, I change the block, punch or kick or, make it weapon usable. Sais are wonderful for this :)

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Andrew Green


Well one on one works too...

Just that you can't learn them alone is all that I meant.

We do kata all at the same time, but everyone off doing it on there own. I usually teach it to one person at a time too.

Guess group wasn't really the right word there.

Thanks Andrew,

Probably stirring up another hornets nest, but if there's one thing I do loathe, it's synchronized Kata. Musical Kata, is a bit of a laugh, but I'd personally rather watch one person perform a Pattern well, than sixteen people with sparse coordination. :D

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Andy Murray


Thanks Andrew,

Probably stirring up another hornets nest, but if there's one thing I do loathe, it's sychronized Kata. Musical Kata, is a bit of a laugh, but I'd personally watch one person perform a Pattern well, than sixteen people with sparse coordination. :D

Not with me, I don't think any two people should do the same kata the same way... Unless maybe if they where Identical twins...

[Spike]

Qoute for Andy Murray:

Probably stirring up another hornets nest, but if there's one thing I do loathe, it's synchronized Kata. Musical Kata, is a bit of a laugh, but I'd personally rather watch one person perform a Pattern well, than sixteen people with sparse coordination.
_________________________________________________

You`ve seen me in a nightclub when they play "Kung Fu Fighting", then?

[pgm316]

Originally posted by pesilat


IMHO, the learning of a form (regardless of the art/system/style) is just the first step. From there, the form must be explored. In the end, it's not what you are taught that makes you a good martial artist. It's what you *find* for yourself. You have to explore it yourself and find your own expression of each movement, each *moment* of the form ... and your own expression of the form as a whole. This is, IMO, a microcosm of training in the martial arts in general. This same progression is, for me, what the martial arts is all about. It's about learning, exploration, and expression.

We each start with mimicry. We learn from our instructors and we mimic our instructors. But if we never leave that stage, then we're just copycats. Martial art, like any other art, should, IMHO, be about self-expression. I have to find my own understanding of the material (including, but certainly not limited to forms) ... not just parrot my instructor's teachings.

At least, that's what MA is to me.

Mike


I agree with you Mike on what you said there. I've noticed a similar thing while practising, some people are very good at set routines, but it often doesn’t translate through to their sparring etc. And when you discuss techniques it becomes apparent there just repeating the movements like robots without thinking why they’re doing it. Its so important to think about everything you do, question it and make your own mind up about the way you fight. That’s MA’s to me, and I think its the way effective techniques become a natural response.

[Tseek Choi]

Andy Green:
Not with me, I don't think any two people should do the same kata the same way... Unless maybe if they where Identical twins...

Andy I have to agree with this point.
One thing very noticeable in the style I practice is that you never see two people performing a form in exactly the same way.

I believe that while practicing a form you should be attempting to visualise the opponent/s that your movements are aims at.
This being the case each person might visualise their opponents differently, thus each person will perform "their" form differently.
This being so, I would say that there is no "right" way to do a form or kata, only wrong ways.
If the practicitioner can effectively explain the reason for performing a particular technique in a certain way then it is surely a legitimate method.

You can probably see that I believe form/kata practice is an important aspect of training. It is however not the whole thing. Forms must be broken down and each movement must be clearly understood. If this is not done then you might as well do line dance.
But training the form it'self is also important. The perfection of each individual technique is a way to train the mind to understand your body and it's movements.
Forms practice teachs balance, footwork, body alignment, coordination, correct breathing, the list goes on. The only thing forms don't teach is how to take a punch. Yet the form will strengthen your body and develop other skills that will enable you to absord/avoid/counter the punch.
All this and I haven't even started on chi development through forms practice!

Colin................

[Joseki]

I dont love kata's and I dont hate them, but I have respect for there applications.

[Sam]

somebody somewhere saw a move in a kata that seems pointless or unusable work because if they didnt work why would they be there in the first place be assured they are their for a purpose maybe only you will use a move once in a lifetime but if it stops you getting hurt then all the better.

remember somebody saw it work and somebody else developed it to work

skc

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by skc_wado

remember somebody saw it work and somebody else developed it to work

skc

There is a really big flaw in your logic.

Even if you are correct, it is still pointless if you don't know how to make it work.

But you still lack evidence that everything in kata is meant to represent a practical technique. Some things might not be, they might be to develop strength, speed, percision, co-ordination, etc. Or they simply may be for show.

The traditional argument is used in many things, and it is flawed in all of them. Basically it goes like this:

Somewhere at some time there was someone who could do things that no one today can duplicate. Therefore they must have known what they where doing, and we think they did this. Therefore we should do this. Even though non of us has been able to achieve anywhere near the same level, we should do them. The reason is that we don't do them with enough dedication. But mythic super-sensei's doing them proves that they are the best way to do things.

- There is no proof that mythic super-sensei did the things he is said to have done. Stories get exagerrated over time.

- There is no proof that he trained this way, "traditional" training is done very different then it was 100 years ago.

- If no one in the last 100 years, out of thousands of practitioners, has been able to duplicate it, what makes you think you or I can?

- every other athletic activity has made huge advancements in the past 100 years, why shouldn't martial arts be doing so as well? Compare competition times from 10, 20, 50 years ago and look at the differences.

- The few people that have tried to prove their "traditional" skills and methods in competition have lost.

[edges]

I Love Kata, this is why.

Some of you have already mentioned many of the same points I want to bring up, so I'll keep this short.

As "solo" practice, kata is the only time I can genuinly aim for a perfect execution of each and every stance, stance change, step, punch, block etc. Thereby working muscle memory to perform the most perfect movement at all times.
Some days my focus may be footwork, some kata suit this more than others, but I do find that the footwork training in the kata will transfer into improved movement in other areas of training.
Otherr days power may be my focus, this would usually be followed by executing techniques from the form/kata on a bag/focus pads.
Occasionally speed is the focus, although I don't like to practice kata like this.
And often technique will be the primary focus.

So on any given day I can practice the same form with many different goals in mind.

As for the moves within the kata, Hironori himself mentions the shape of the hand, the stance used etc can all be adjusted to suit the scenario given.

So the downward X block in a horse stance may make more sense in a front/back/cat stance. Look at the move directly before and after, in the scenario you are wrking at the moment (eg the attack is a front ball kick), do they give any ideas as to why you are in such a stance.

As mentioned earlier, take apart the Kata, find the applications (bunkai). There will never be just one aplication. There will be several, against several attacks, some staying within the sequence of the form othres just using it as a starting point.

I said I'll keep it short so thats my view, hope it sets some more good arguments in motion.

[thepunisher]

Now this is always a good subject to get the tempers flaring on Karate practitioners. I for one do not like Kata and really do struggle to see the effective uses for “SOME” moves in it, there are many horse style downward cross armed blocks designed to stop a front kick……

..have nothing to do with you being able to use it effectively, for those the individual moves are meant, but to teach you concentration and focus. Being able to do 21 different moves from memory over and over again proves to the sensei that not only do you know the individual moves-same as with learning five-step or four-step fighting-but can concentrate and focus. From the lessons I've done so far and seeing the sensei do the katas it helps you enormously to concentrate yourself. And normally from what I know about katas-from both shotokan and seiki juku- if you are doing a kata with moves that aren't normally used you shouldn't do the kata. Normally katas include-so much as I know-only individual moves that are taught on there own and you should know for their efficiency already.

Just my oppinion.

Christian

[Hawks]

Now this is always a good subject to get the tempers flaring on Karate practitioners. I for one do not like Kata and really do struggle to see the effective uses for “SOME” moves in it, there are many horse style downward cross armed blocks designed to stop a front kick……

I consider this to be well, a pretty useless technique – so my question is why teach stuff to people that does not work…….I know I could not stop a decent kick with this and I have been told on many occasions I am a strong guy!!!!

When I quizzed someone on this technique – I am using this as an example as there are other bad ones - Why teach it at all as if in a pressure situation a student does this and gets his crown jewels re-arranged its fight over?

What are other peoples views as some Kata are ok but the most have things that don’t work, In most of the arts I have trained there has been not to much Kata which has been a real blessing and now when I do it I find there are always a few moves that are almost there just to link it to another move that works. I can see the use in teaching movement and spacial awareness but the only answer I get is “that’s the way it is or that’s how the Kata is”

I for one think if you make a Kata it should be on moves that are simple and effective – after all these are the moves that I want to drill and to teach as if a student “god forbib” was attacked at least they have something to offer in defence!

Over to you guys & girls?

Also before anyone starts on the you have not done Kata correctly or any of that Crap I have and most of it is useful so can I have some real answers and no moral high ground bull please!!!

Your shout now????
I would personally say that whoever is explaining these applications to you is wrong. I dont think there is anything wrong with the move, I just think it wont work using it the way you have been told. Part of what I like about Katas is discovering the applications for myself. There can certainly be multiple applications for one move from a Kata.
JMHO

[rainbows]

I actually really enjoy kata. In my opinion, it helps to develop good technique, helps you to focus your mind entirely, and some katas are just beautiful.

[Timmy Boy]

Right here is the beginning of your problem (and one shared by a lot of people). The movement you described may (or may not) be effective in stopping a front kick ... but I'd bet dollars to donuts that it wasn't *designed* for that purpose. There are many possible applications from chokes and locks to takedowns and disarms. And that's not even taking into consideration possible weapons applications.

Do you know what the applications are?

Also, in application, you may not drop into a horse stance for some techniques or, for others, you don't cross your arms ... some aspects of the kata are put together in such a way to work different muscle groups and train specific attributes ... not necessarily as an application.

If you want to work out your muscles, go down the gym.

That response is, IMHO, one that a poor instructor would give. Or an instructor who doesn't understand it to begin with. People like this *shouldn't* teach kata. All they do is propogate their own lack of understanding.

Well, Sonshu is my instructor, and his lessons revolve around seeing what actually works and applying it rather than having to hypothesise over what techniques are really designed for.

Kata (juru, langkah, sayaw, forms ... whatever terminology you want to use) are *very* effective training tools *when they're properly taught.* When they're improperly taught then they're next to useless. I would agree that in a lot of schools, kata are improperly taught. But that doesn't invalidate the effectiveness of the kata as a training tool.

And, never lose sight of the fact that it is *just* a training tool. Just like anything else.

It's easy to just say "yeah well many places don't learn them properly but we don't", but on that front pretty much everyone thinks they're the exception to the rule while deep down they're still learning the same old crap.

Also, *every* art/style/system/instructor uses kata ... even if they (or the students) don't perceive it as such. In boxing, working on a jab/cross combo is a type of kata. In Shootfighting, working on lock flows is a type of kata. The practical application of these "kata" is pretty readily evident.

Learning combos in boxing isn't like a kata. Learning a sequence comprised of a couple of moves and then learning to apply it against a resisting opponent isn't like performing a long choreographed sequence of movements that you don't really understand with only thin air for an opponent.

The thing that gets me is this: people often say, "Well, I would *never* do that in a fight so it's not practical for me to train it." Boxers don't get in the ring with a jump rope ... so should they not jump rope in training?

Skipping develops stamina which is useful in a fight, particularly a boxing match, so it does actually have a purpose. It's designed for fitness rather than skill.

[19thlohan]

I consider this to be well, a pretty useless technique – so my question is why teach stuff to people that does not work…….I know I could not stop a decent kick with this and I have been told on many occasions I am a strong guy!!!!

When I quizzed someone on this technique – I am using this as an example as there are other bad ones - Why teach it at all as if in a pressure situation a student does this and gets his crown jewels re-arranged its fight over?

Alot of traditional styles have outdated moves that worked under the right circumstances which may have been common in thier time. They are preserved as part of the art for tradition and culture. However many moves are simply misunderstood and interpreted wrong. In kung fu forms we have several different applications for the move you described.
One would be a kick block and trap but you step back out of range rather than trying to stop the kick hard style. Let your arms absord the force softly, since you stepped back before recieving the kick penetration won't be a problem, cup his ankle with your hands and scoop it up. You can do various ankle locks and takedowns or expose the groin and suporting knee for kicks. You can also step off to the angle to side step the kick and do the same stuff. alot of forms are linear in nature and it's up to the practitioner to understand angles and variations of the techniques.
A second use would be to dissolve a wrist grab. Wedge your free wrist between your captured wrist and your opponants holding wrist and snap them down with a dropping of your wieght. That will usually break your opponants grip.
A third use would be to block out a throw from a collar and elbow type hold. Squat down to lower youcenter of gravity and place your hands agasinst your opponants hips as they turn to enter for the throw to keep space between you.
There are also a couple of arm locks that come from that posture but they're a bit hard to describe without being able to show the positions.

I know this was just 1 example of a technique you think is impractical but unless you're sure that you know every possible application for every move in your form it's hard to judge them. I think forms training has it's place as long as it's understood and not the only tool being used.

[davethekodiak]

dont do them, thank god, but i have a deep respect for the arts that have them.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

they are good for what they were designed for- a way to memorise the moves of an art so they werent lost. application nowadays? almost nil.

[Slindsay]

I got to spend a lesson doing the first patern yesterday, I nearly cried I was so bored.

In the end I decided to try and get away with low kicks to the ankle and doing hooks instead of sreverse punches because I was bored, then I started to try and do little dances in between the moves, then I got really bored and tried to ave at people in between each move.

I found it focused my mind wonderfully..

I defeinatley come down on the hate side.

[Jang Bong]

Here we go again :rolleyes: :D

Too bad Edges found this older one rather than re-sparking the 'Kata - an amateurs perspective' thread. Now there is a read to be enjoyed by the newcomers ;)

Over the weekend I had an enjoyable half-hour where Iain Abernathey took a single move (preparitory motion, and strike) from a kata and gave two specific applications within a 'scrappy scuffle' situation. The fact was that we all knew the movement from our forms, he simply put it into real life.

Edit: Slindsay - I'm not sure what level your have reached in your art, but our black belts are expected to do the first form we use at a black belt level. If you wanted mental stimulation then you could have thought of a different 'situation' for every move, half-move, and strike each time you did the form. If you were simply 'stepping through the steps' then it sounds like you wasted half your lesson. (Your choice - not your instructors ;))

[axelb]

love/hate depends on the form.

I practise forms, to me kata is assuming its a japanese style MA, which from my experience (Karate & Judo) I don't like the majority of the kata.

i think the problem is that people assume there is a seamless link between the teacher and the student who practise the form.

people used to crosstrain as we do know.

but not all people learnt forms to the level that they understood what they were doing. Then they took these forms and merged it with their own style.

There's a lot of Karate styles that have forms similar to CMA styles, with variations. I think thats when these other moves come up that people aren't so sure about and there's confusion about their relevance of the application/use.

When we are learning forms we eventually have a partner "attack" you through the form - this way you are tested throughout the form and you know what each move is doing. IMHO this is good for those learning various applications as they are being presented to them in form of an attack. Other applications of the form can be found out by the student but this is a kick start (or a punch start;) )

then after lots of time and effort when you put these into practise (e.g. sparring, or on da street etc) you do what your body is programmed to do against X attack.

[Davey Bones]

I'm falling on the "love them" side.

1. Great for focus and relaxation.

2. A very good way to learn to flow between moves, work on speed and co-ordination, and learn how to combine moves without doing the same repetious "puch/kick" drills on a bag. It helps vary things.

3. I disagree with Ikken wholeheartedly. I have found, as have classmates, that the techniques we learn in our forms can in fact be used in fighting. Perhaps not in exactly the way it is in the form, but we do find ourselves working those combinations, such as a cutting palm/elbow down combo from short form one, or one of my fave combos, whirlwind plam/elbow strike/double tiger strike from short two.

4. They do tend to mark each style. You look at our forms and immediately recognize them as "chinese". I can do the same with Japanese and Korean styles. Just a quirk I like, gives me an idea of what I'll be learning.

5. They force me to think about the techniques I'm learning and how to apply them. No two students will apply them in exactly the same way. Do we master them immediately? Of course not! But it gives us things to work on.

6. They're a lot more enjoyable than shadowboxing. Ugh.

[Haduken]

"they are good for what they were designed for- a way to memorise the moves of an art so they werent lost. application nowadays? almost nil."

i can't believe that there is a single martial artist out there that thinks this about kata. I may offend many, and you may think that I am wrong... but if you have been taught kata application that is not a highly effective in a variety of situations... you have been taught wrong! the end

[MartialArtN00b]

I guess I am fortunate that I can remember a long form with a couple of try. It helps me not to have to redo it alot of time.

Not that I dislike kata. Its just that kata functions like a physic's manual. You can read in depth every sections several times without doing any problems, and still end up with an F in the exam. Or you can gloss over the materials, and do every exercices, and get an A.

Same thing applies with kata. It functions like a science book, gloss over the sections, and do the exercices. Not the reverse. Understanding comes from practicing the material, not from reading it ( or in this case doing X times the kata).

I use kata as a point of reference, and then I shadowbox, practice with a partner, drill, and hit the bags.

The good thing about kata is that its the class material. Its a point of reference.

The bad thing about it is that kata is overrated. Martial arts isnt as simple as that.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

fact is that MANY martial arts dont even have katas or forms in them and are still very effective. like I said, I believe they were used to memorise the movements in an art so it wouldnt be lost, during times when the chinese govt was cracking down on martial artists and they had few students.

[edges]

Mr Bong, am I missing out on another thread somewhere? Still new tho this forum thing and could use a little help...

[edges]

I would agree many systems do not use kata in the traditional sense. However if a kata is a sequence of movements practiced in a prearranged manner, then surely almost every art form, martial or not has their own version of Kata.
From a musician practicing scales and progressing to improvising and jamming with other musicians, to the martial artist practicing kata, progressing to partner drills and sparring with other practioners.

In both cases a dilligent student of the given art always goes back to their basics, be it kata, or the musical scales. Because that is the foundation, and the foundation will always get stronger and deeper if you continue to train hard.

That said take a close look at your system. I watch a friend of mine teaching his full contact kick boxing class and he uses pre arranged drills hitting the pads. Performed over and over again.

Surely this is kata.

Shadow boxing = A freeplaying version of kata

A kata should develop and grow as you do. If a beginner and senior practioner do the same kata in the exact same way, there is a problem within the training.

I will admit, the more you grow in experience, the more you will appreciate kata training. For a long time as a lower ranking student I disliked kata practice and only want to spar. Now as I'm a little older and have moved away from the competition side of the martial arts, I find more and more value in the benefits of kata.

[Jang Bong]

:D Mr Bong - I think I like that :D

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20976

Do not look at this link unless you have plenty of time and are not paying your internet 'by the minute'. It has run to 24 pages long and could really do with indexing and having the 'restart' points highlighted :D

After saying that - it did stay very civilized, with both points of view nicely put.

BTW - you are on our team :D ;) :cool:

[Ikken Hisatsu]

shadow boxing is not kata. in shadow boxing you arent restricted to certain attacks, or footwork.

[funkymonk]

I enjoy patterns/kata whatever you want to call them. To me they're a good way of improving techniques such as side kicks , making sure you have your toes pointing down for instance. If done properly they can be just as tiring as sparring and you can also practice techniques that you cannot do sparring such as flat fingertip thrust to the throat. Muscle memory also comes into it but this is only a good thing if you are performing the move correctly in the first place.
Before anybody jumps down my throat i believe that it should only form a small part of the art and that self defence and sparring are more important.

[chrispy]

I'd tend to agree with Haduken and MartialArtN00b, kata's as a whole are simply a way to remember techniques and trying to apply a whole kata when defendning against a group of people is going to be useless. But if you take the time to extract a few movements firgure out how to apply them, what strike you are defending against in that move and then the counter attack they become very useful.


Plus it worked in Karate Kid 3 so it must be good ;)

[Davey Bones]

Methinks many students out there are NOT being taught the proper application of forms and kata based on this thread...

[Haduken]

chrispy.. just to clarify... i do not think that kata is simply a way to remeber techniques as such... a kata defines and documents a particular way of fighting... it defines principles and the essence of techniques... eg goju kata saifa means to tear and smash - the movements within the kata reflect this meaning and each of the movements can be interpreted in a number of ways - but they all adhere to a this principle of tearing, ripping and smashing - anyone who is practicing kata for merely aesthetic reasons - or even just taking each movement in isolation as a excercise in 'air' technique - imo is not really practicing kata - just a series of kihon moves.
equally those who believe that kata is designed to defend against multiple opponents are incorrect - it may look this way to some - as you turn to 'face' different opponents - but this is not the case.

[chrispy]

chrispy.. just to clarify... i do not think that kata is simply a way to remeber techniques as such... a kata defines and documents a particular way of fighting... it defines principles and the essence of techniques... eg goju kata saifa means to tear and smash - the movements within the kata reflect this meaning and each of the movements can be interpreted in a number of ways - but they all adhere to a this principle of tearing, ripping and smashing - anyone who is practicing kata for merely aesthetic reasons - or even just taking each movement in isolation as a excercise in 'air' technique - imo is not really practicing kata - just a series of kihon moves.
equally those who believe that kata is designed to defend against multiple opponents are incorrect - it may look this way to some - as you turn to 'face' different opponents - but this is not the case.


I should have been more clear, I was agreeing with you rpost about this:

"they are good for what they were designed for- a way to memorise the moves of an art so they werent lost. application nowadays? almost nil."

i can't believe that there is a single martial artist out there that thinks this about kata. I may offend many, and you may think that I am wrong... but if you have been taught kata application that is not a highly effective in a variety of situations... you have been taught wrong! the end

That if people think the value of kata is zero that they would be wrong

[Ikken Hisatsu]

what about the millions of martial artists who dont use kata at all?

[Jang Bong]

what about the millions of martial artists who dont use kata at all?

What about them ??? :confused:

Just because some people do not use a tool does not discount the properties of that tool. Nobody on the pro-kata side says that "this is the only way", yet most people on the anti-kata side seem to say "it serves no practical purpose" or worse still "ditch it!".

Anyone see the imbalance ;) :D

[Kyle_s7]

I Dont Know What Were Yelling At!!!........................................loud Noises!!!

[bcullen]

what about the millions of martial artists who dont use kata at all?

So there are MA's that attack in singular? Kata/Forms/Poomse are a series of combinationations strung together.

[Timmy Boy]

So there are MA's that attack in singular? Kata/Forms/Poomse are a series of combinationations strung together.

So martial artists who don't learn katas don't learn how to use combos?

[bcullen]

So martial artists who don't learn katas don't learn how to use combos?

So your either not real sharp or trying to imply I'm the one giving the "one true way" speech here which is not the case. I don't recall any threads berating people for not using kata.

I'm trying to relate the concepts to something that a MA of any style could relate to. Each of the sequences of a form can be broken into smaller bits that are combinations. The whole form is just one long running series of combinations.

[tekkengod]

yeah, its always a good idea to dedicate time to doing a preset series of movements and attacks that someone else thinks is a good idea.
what brilliance.

[bcullen]

yeah, its always a good idea to dedicate time to doing a preset series of movements and attacks that someone else thinks is a good idea.
what brilliance.

Oh like Jab, Cross? (Same thing folks)

[Ikken Hisatsu]

thing is, jab cross is used ALL THE TIME. low sliding stance into side punch followed by spinning crescent kick is not.

[tekkengod]

thing is, jab cross is used ALL THE TIME.

low sliding stance into side punch followed by spinning crescent kick is not


:D that was kind of my point there people. things like that.
no one is going to do a snap kick to your stomach anymore atleast not followed by double knife hands to the neck!!!!!
PRACTICALITY is the lesson here people. hes right, Jab Cross is an EVERYDAY thing.

[bcullen]

thing is, jab cross is used ALL THE TIME. low sliding stance into side punch followed by spinning crescent kick is not.

I have never seen that outside open forms/XMA but then I'm not extremely well versed in Japanese kata. From my experience most of what I've seen is basic attack combinations.

no one is going to do a snap kick to your stomach anymore atleast not followed by double knife hands to the neck!!!!!


I saw that in a few cheesy 70's MA films and that's the only place I've ever encountered it.

[tekkengod]

and that will quite possibly be the ONLY time you EVER encounter it.

[Jang Bong]

yeah, its always a good idea to dedicate time to doing a preset series of movements and attacks that someone else thinks is a good idea.
what brilliance.

... and what sarcasm. :rolleyes:

I'd have thought it more on the lines of dedicating time doing all the movements and attacks in an art - not just the ones you or your trainer 'think' are the most likely ones.

I've deliberatly missed the word 'preset', as it has been pointed out before that the big sequences break down to small sequences, and they break down to individual moves. By practicing the whole form we practice all the individual moves.

Sorry for diving in bcullen - you are doing fine, but it was looking like you were outnumbered by the usual suspects ;)

[Timmy Boy]

So your either not real sharp or trying to imply I'm the one giving the "one true way" speech here which is not the case. I don't recall any threads berating people for not using kata.

Yes, I know, I just don't see the link between "I don't use kata" and "I attack in the singular". Either you're not real sharp or you haven't read the response to that point which has already been posted.

I'm trying to relate the concepts to something that a MA of any style could relate to. Each of the sequences of a form can be broken into smaller bits that are combinations. The whole form is just one long running series of combinations.

Yes - and many artists don't learn one long running series of combinations, i.e. a kata. Learning individual combos and learning one long sequence of forms with moves that people argue about as to what they're designed for are not the same thing. The latter is what kata is, and is what people object to.

... and what sarcasm. :rolleyes:

I'd have thought it more on the lines of dedicating time doing all the movements and attacks in an art - not just the ones you or your trainer 'think' are the most likely ones.

If you spar, you learn what the likely ones are yourself.

I've deliberatly missed the word 'preset', as it has been pointed out before that the big sequences break down to small sequences, and they break down to individual moves. By practicing the whole form we practice all the individual moves.

Why is it necessary to practice them all together, if you're going to practice them separately in live drills anyway?

thing is, jab cross is used ALL THE TIME. low sliding stance into side punch followed by spinning crescent kick is not.

Nor is there a prescription of what is to follow a jab-cross.

[Jang Bong]

There is no 'prescription' as to what follows what in any fighting I've been instructed in - a low-block/middle punch can be followed up with a dozen things (by knowing a number of different kata)

[Timmy Boy]

There is no 'prescription' as to what follows what in any fighting I've been instructed in - a low-block/middle punch can be followed up with a dozen things (by knowing a number of different kata)

Yes, or by just not bothering with kata and moving straight on to live drills, which will be far more effective at developing applicable skills. What's the point of learning the long strings?

[Jang Bong]

If you spar, you learn what the likely ones are yourself.

But if you learn kata you learn all of them - the sparring then gives you the likely ones.


Why is it necessary to practice them all together, if you're going to practice them separately in live drills anyway?

It is quicker and more efficient than trying to learn so many techniques as drills. I know your answer is "too many techniques" - but that is the art.

[GojuKJoe]

I like trying to achieve good form in my kata, aswell as practising the fighting techniques. If you're doing it right, it shouldn't stop you being an effective fighter, it just adds another element to your martial arts training.

[Timmy Boy]

But if you learn kata you learn all of them - the sparring then gives you the likely ones.

Do you need ALL of them? When are you ever going to need to punch from the horse stance?

It is quicker and more efficient than trying to learn so many techniques as drills. I know your answer is "too many techniques" - but that is the art.

If you get into the habit of using your techniques in live drills they will become instinctive, so the task of "remembering" them is far easier than trying to remember a long sequence in the air. This is why live drills are used in every single activity in life apart from martial arts. It might well be a case of "that is the art" if there are too many techniques, but I don't see how that helps the situation. Your ability to fight will depend on what you can do instinctively, not your ability to remember vast catalogues of movements in long patterns.

[Jang Bong]

Which brings you back to the question of why people (these days) learn a martial art. Not necessarily just to fight well.

This if fun, but I've got work to do.... Catch you later :)

[Timmy Boy]

Which brings you back to the question of why people (these days) learn a martial art. Not necessarily just to fight well.

Yes, but we are talking about effectiveness.

[tekkengod]

I'd have thought it more on the lines of dedicating time doing all the movements and attacks in an art - not just the ones you or your trainer 'think' are the most likely ones.

it goes back alot farther than your trainer, how about the guy who thought it was a good idea 50 years ago.


but hey, you feel free to do dancing katas and i'll stick to live drills and sparring.

[tekkengod]

Yes, but we are talking about effectiveness.

and thats what matters.

[jonmonk]

This is not meant to be a sarcastic or otherwise inflamatory post but if it's not for training in fighting, I'd be genuinely interested to know what Tekkengod & Timmy Boy think the purpose of kata is.

[Timmy Boy]

This is not meant to be a sarcastic or otherwise inflamatory post but if it's not for training in fighting, I'd be genuinely interested to know what Tekkengod & Timmy Boy think the purpose of kata is.

I didn't say it's not for fighting, I said that I don't think it's a very effective tool for learning how to fight.

[jonmonk]

I didn't say it's not for fighting, I said that I don't think it's a very effective tool for learning how to fight.
ok, so you can learn to fight with kata but you believe modern methods teach you more quickly?

[Timmy Boy]

ok, so you can learn to fight with kata but you believe modern methods teach you more quickly?

I think the benefit gained from learning kata is marginal - you learn the moves and that's it. Other benefits of it are better served by other drills which also develop other skills better.

[jonmonk]

I think the benefit gained from learning kata is marginal - you learn the moves and that's it. Other benefits of it are better served by other drills which also develop other skills better.
Lol! You've remembered our last conversation :D
What do practice instead of kata?

[Timmy Boy]

Lol! You've remembered our last conversation :D
What do practice instead of kata?

It's not that we have a replacement for kata - it's just that the alleged benefits of practicing it are better covered by live drills anyway. Striking drills, for example, all incorporate footwork, correct form (e.g. if you don't want to get hit you learn to keep your chin tucked in, keep your right hand up etc), fitness (and it's more intense than kata), evasion, and use of combinations. At the same time, these drills develop skills that kata doesn't even touch like reactions, accuracy, timing, and application of techniques you will actually use; there's no "well we don't actually fight in the forward stance, we just learn it anyway...".

I'm not trying to sound arrogant, I never big up my own fighting ability, but to me it's just common sense.

[tekkengod]

i think kata is an outdated practice and under the roof of todays mcdojos, it serves as a means to sidetrack people from the fact that they are not being educated.
I'll give you an example. when i used to train at the TKD mcdojo, i'd ask him for a bit of variety in sparring and some realistic application of knife defenses and that i show the class a bit of grappling, and he'd say "go do your forms" i'm not alone in this, i've heard countless complaints which are similar. kata does not teach you how to fight at all. it does develop a very minimal amount of reflex though.

[bassai]

I must admit i havent rewad the whole thread so forgive me if im repeating previous comment but i see this in 2 ways 1/ as i see it the inclusion of kata / forms is what seperates tma from mma in that they encourage more "artful" movements than straight out fighting movements and no im not trying to say one is better than another its just my veiw on the subject :D 2/ The application/breakdown of any kata can vary between any demo ,book or video i have seen some awsome applications that realy opened my eyes but at other times ive seen stuff that just made me think thats total bs. Unfortuanately there seem to be more of the second instance than the first and this is the impresion given that kata is useless i do agree that some movements are out of date such as double knifehand strike but you have to remember that some kata can alledgedly be traced back 200 years or more! it may be worth thinking how relevant your favorite techniques/combos might be in200 years time ;) as i said i dont want to start the whole mma vs tma thing again for the 1000th time i just ask that you dont dismiss something out of hand just because it doesnt fit your veiw :D

[tekkengod]

i dismiss things out of hand if they don't work. period.

[Jang Bong]

i dismiss things out of hand if they don't work. period.

Two different ways to write that which no-one could argue with:

i dismiss things out of hand if they don't appear to work.

i dismiss things out of hand if they don't work for me.

Your birth-year isn't on your DOB, but I'll guess I've got a few years on you :rolleyes: I wish I was as sure of as many things as you seem to be ;)

[tekkengod]

i'm sure you have more than a few on me :D i'm 16. yes, i'm sure of lots of stuff, but lots more i'm not. i'll take that. Dosen't work for me, nor does it appear to work. think about this.
you will NEVER see someone who has done katas their whole lives be successful in K-1 or the UFC. make sense?

[bcullen]

Yes, I know, I just don't see the link between "I don't use kata" and "I attack in the singular". Either you're not real sharp or you haven't read the response to that point which has already been posted.

I think the question of sharpness has been answered :rolleyes: Notice the question mark at the end of what I posted (i.e. Asking if there are arts that teach strike and do nothing.) Implying that whether or not you use the termminology you still have a practice that could be deemed "short katas". Just a facetious reply to a series of sweeping generalizations.


Yes - and many artists don't learn one long running series of combinations, i.e. a kata. Learning individual combos and learning one long sequence of forms with moves that people argue about as to what they're designed for are not the same thing. The latter is what kata is, and is what people object to.


I haven't heard much arguement at all. Then again I'm primarily a CMA so my experience may not be the same as others. Experimentation with the forms is highly encouraged.


If you spar, you learn what the likely ones are yourself.

No, you continue to do what you've learned at that point. You don't try new things when someone is trying to hit you. You just do what you know.


Why is it necessary to practice them all together, if you're going to practice them separately in live drills anyway?

The break points for each of the combinations can be different. Start it one move earlier or later and you have a different combination.


Nor is there a prescription of what is to follow a jab-cross.

Nothing prescribed in the forms either. Maybe suggested but not written in stone (Yeah I know, no wise cracks about the carvings in the temples :p )

... and what sarcasm. :rolleyes:

I'd have thought it more on the lines of dedicating time doing all the movements and attacks in an art - not just the ones you or your trainer 'think' are the most likely ones.

I've deliberatly missed the word 'preset', as it has been pointed out before that the big sequences break down to small sequences, and they break down to individual moves. By practicing the whole form we practice all the individual moves.

Sorry for diving in bcullen - you are doing fine, but it was looking like you were outnumbered by the usual suspects ;)

No problem I couldn't have said it better myself. ;)

[jonmonk]

It's not that we have a replacement for kata - it's just that the alleged benefits of practicing it are better covered by live drills anyway. Striking drills, for example, all incorporate footwork, correct form (e.g. if you don't want to get hit you learn to keep your chin tucked in, keep your right hand up etc), fitness (and it's more intense than kata), evasion, and use of combinations. At the same time, these drills develop skills that kata doesn't even touch like reactions, accuracy, timing, and application of techniques you will actually use; there's no "well we don't actually fight in the forward stance, we just learn it anyway...".
We also practice live drills though and I'd argue (purely from my own experience of knackeredness and not based on scientific evidence!) that practicing a form correctly can also offer just as good a fitness workout as sparring. I'm happy to accept that a large number of clubs that base their curriculum around kata do not use it as an 'effective' tool. IMHO they concentrate too much on perfecting a performance rather than concentrating on what the kata actually contains. However, having said that, I wouldn't know because I don't believe I know everything there is to know about kata.

We don't practice a kata the same way every time we do it. We adapt it to fit the job we're trying to do at that particular moment. Sometimes we do it quickly and lightly, sometimes slowly and under tension, sometimes we're concentrating on breathing, footwork or sometimes awareness, we might practice with a partner, we might be practicing alone. Sometimes we practice in long, low stances, often we practice in upright stances, especially at the higher grades when you're expected to be thinking about making the form work for yourself. I'm perfectly happy for you to say that you don't think this is an effective way to train, personally I quite like it and I think that's what it comes down to in the end, personal preference.

In response to Tekkengod's reply, I think it's a crying shame that the TKD club you visited weren't interested in learning grappling. I can assure you though that not all TMA (if that's how TKD is normally defined) is like that. As I know you're aware, there's a long tradition in Classical and Traditional martial arts of cross training for example all those Okinawan karateka who also studied other Kobudo such as Sai, Bo jutsu and later Kendo, in their time this was modern MMA. If you were to come to our club you'd be encouraged to demonstrate what you know and I think we're all ego free enough to listen and learn from you whatever your age. Many other people have and they are always welcome. One of our frequent guests says, "to understand your own art, understand the arts of other people." or something like that anyway (sorry if I got that wrong Martin!)

I'm not trying to sound arrogant, I never big up my own fighting ability, but to me it's just common sense.
I didn't think you were, I hope I'm not coming over as arrogant either.

Oh, just a thought, do you guys think it's the kata that's the problem, or the martial artists that practice it?

[Timmy Boy]

We also practice live drills though and I'd argue (purely from my own experience of knackeredness and not based on scientific evidence!) that practicing a form correctly can also offer just as good a fitness workout as sparring. I'm happy to accept that a large number of clubs that base their curriculum around kata do not use it as an 'effective' tool. IMHO they concentrate too much on perfecting a performance rather than concentrating on what the kata actually contains. However, having said that, I wouldn't know because I don't believe I know everything there is to know about kata.

I agree that some places implement kata better than others, but the idea of performing the whole sequence together still seems pointless. As regards the text in bold, personally I've never found this to be the case and since other more useful drills develop fitness I see no reason to set aside training time for kata on that basis.

We don't practice a kata the same way every time we do it. We adapt it to fit the job we're trying to do at that particular moment. Sometimes we do it quickly and lightly, sometimes slowly and under tension, sometimes we're concentrating on breathing, footwork or sometimes awareness, we might practice with a partner, we might be practicing alone. Sometimes we practice in long, low stances, often we practice in upright stances, especially at the higher grades when you're expected to be thinking about making the form work for yourself. I'm perfectly happy for you to say that you don't think this is an effective way to train, personally I quite like it and I think that's what it comes down to in the end, personal preference.

It is, of course, personal opinion as you say. But to me, whatever aspect of the kata you concentrate on, it's still choreographed, it still lacks resistance, and it still contains unclear movements. You can do that as fast or as slow as you like, in low or high stances, concentrating on breathing or concentrating on technique, it's still not conferring much (if any) useful skill. I've done arts with katas/forms in them before and they really did seem to be a memory exercise more than anything else.

Oh, just a thought, do you guys think it's the kata that's the problem, or the martial artists that practice it?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. I do agree that some clubs that use kata train better than others, and that some of those clubs produce excellent fighters - look at the karateka who have competed in, and done well in, K-1. But I feel that the clubs who do use kata well owe the effectiveness of their fighters ENTIRELY to the bunkai-style drills and, of course, hard sparring.

What I mean by that is, many people say that katas are simply reference books full of the information which you refer to and take bits out of to apply to a specific situation. Bunkai drills teach you how to do that. However, I don't see the point in constantly having to recite the whole book, as it's time consuming and doesn't develop actual fighting skills. It makes more sense to just go straight into live drills and refer to the bit you need.

[Timmy Boy]

I think the question of sharpness has been answered :rolleyes: Notice the question mark at the end of what I posted (i.e. Asking if there are arts that teach strike and do nothing.) Implying that whether or not you use the termminology you still have a practice that could be deemed "short katas". Just a facetious reply to a series of sweeping generalizations.

IMO, they aren't nearly long enough to be katas. Katas are very long and complex sequences of moves which you're never going to use in that order. Individual combos are short, simple and can be used interchangeably depending on the situation. Combinations FROM the kata can be used in that way - but why learn them all at once in a certain order, and practice them in that order repeatedly?

No, you continue to do what you've learned at that point. You don't try new things when someone is trying to hit you. You just do what you know.

You can learn a lot about what works and what doesn't work from just fighting a lot. This is why people without any formal training can still be very dangerous fighters. Plus, you have instructors and more experienced students to suggest new things.

The break points for each of the combinations can be different. Start it one move earlier or later and you have a different combination.

That doesn't mean you have to practice them together.

Nothing prescribed in the forms either. Maybe suggested but not written in stone (Yeah I know, no wise cracks about the carvings in the temples :p )

The point I was trying to make is, live drills incorporating short combos are free flowing, whereas practicing one long sequence is practicing one long sequence.

[jonmonk]

It is, of course, personal opinion as you say. But to me, whatever aspect of the kata you concentrate on, it's still choreographed, it still lacks resistance, and it still contains unclear movements. You can do that as fast or as slow as you like, in low or high stances, concentrating on breathing or concentrating on technique, it's still not conferring much (if any) useful skill. I've done arts with katas/forms in them before and they really did seem to be a memory exercise more than anything else.
It's interesting you should bring up the memory issue, I actually totally agree. I think that one of the fundamental purposes of kata is to act as a kind of Ryu zip file if you see what I mean. It's like a style in a box done that way to ease transmission of information in days when, for a variety of reasons, these things were not written down. IMHO 'learning or practicing the kata' is not just about learning the form which, if we carry on with our Winzip analogy (naff I know:D), I would equate to receiving the zip file in an email i.e. we have the package but it's not particularly useful to us in that form. In order to make it useful, we need to unpack the kata and study it (bunkai) in order to figure out how to use it (Henka / Oyo). Unfortunately in Okinawan karate, we've lost our decompression algorithm so it ain't so easy!

This, I think is where a lot of the misunderstanding happens between TMAs and modern MMAs. Those who study MMAs are primarily interested in practical self-defence and / or competition fighting which is fine, that's their bag. IMHO this is not what you get though if you study traditional or classical karate, hence the disappointment many prospective MA students feel when they train in TMAs. Here I'm not including 'sport karate' as I expect their focus is on competition too although I believe they tend not to study kata in as much detail.

For me studying TMAs / Classical MAs is more like practical archeology or history. What we're interested in is putting the puzzle together to try to gain some insight into where these Okinawans etc were coming from. Like you rightly say, perhaps not an efficient way to learn self-defence however that isn't our primary goal. Having said that though, I know quite a few people with a TMA background who have managed to make it work when pushed. When viewed from that perspective you can see that kata forms a fundamental part of karate training as this is the way in which the karate styles have been transmitted to us.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this.
Not sure I do either truth be told!

I do agree that some clubs that use kata train better than others, and that some of those clubs produce excellent fighters - look at the karateka who have competed in, and done well in, K-1. But I feel that the clubs who do use kata well owe the effectiveness of their fighters ENTIRELY to the bunkai-style drills and, of course, hard sparring.
I agree totally. The only thing I would say though is that for me, bunkai training and kata training are the same thing. I would argue that learning where to stick your arms and legs is just the start of 'learning the kata' and that the bunkai is where the action starts to hot up.

However, I don't see the point in constantly having to recite the whole book, as it's time consuming and doesn't develop actual fighting skills. It makes more sense to just go straight into live drills and refer to the bit you need.
You don't have to recite the whole book every time. You can do what you like :D It's quite normal for karateka to take a small section of a kata, say one or two movements, and spend a large amount of time studying and experimenting with it. This can be alone or with a partner, resisting or otherwise. For me I find the most effective way to do this is to work initially on my own to try to visualise the attack and come up with something I think might work. I then ask someone to attack in a non-resisting way. If this looks like it might be getting somewhere I'd ask them to resist and try to do it in a way that's as live as possible.

If you were training MMA I guess it's different because you already know what the technique is so all you need to do is practice applying it. In TMAs we have to figure out what the move might be first but for me, that's the fun part.

[Timmy Boy]

You don't have to recite the whole book every time. You can do what you like :D It's quite normal for karateka to take a small section of a kata, say one or two movements, and spend a large amount of time studying and experimenting with it. This can be alone or with a partner, resisting or otherwise. For me I find the most effective way to do this is to work initially on my own to try to visualise the attack and come up with something I think might work. I then ask someone to attack in a non-resisting way. If this looks like it might be getting somewhere I'd ask them to resist and try to do it in a way that's as live as possible.

I agree with what you said, I just wanted to clear this point up. What I mean by reciting the whole book is that all the karate clubs I've seen spend a large portion of the lesson reciting the kata, and they then have to recite the kata at gradings in order to pass. This is the waste of time that I have a problem with, at least in schools that claim it's effective for fighting. I don't have to recite my entire law textbook to pass exams, I have to apply what I need.

[Jang Bong]

jonmonk - I LOVE the WinZip analogy :)

But I feel that the clubs who do use kata well owe the effectiveness of their fighters ENTIRELY to the bunkai-style drills and, of course, hard sparring.

This has come up (in other wording) elsewhere between you and I. I have not figured out if it a deliberate ploy of debate, or a fact you have overlooked, but you are giving the pro-kata members an impossible burden of proof in their justification of the effectiveness of kata. The only person who could prove that kata (in itself) is effective is a winning fighter who trains 100% kata. If they have any other method of training then you will atribute their skills to that method and discount kata. I don't think there is any such animal. :bang:

What I mean by that is, many people say that katas are simply reference books full of the information which you refer to and take bits out of to apply to a specific situation. Bunkai drills teach you how to do that. However, I don't see the point in constantly having to recite the whole book, as it's time consuming and doesn't develop actual fighting skills. It makes more sense to just go straight into live drills and refer to the bit you need.

So you put it on the heads of the teachers to learn the kata and extract the elements they want to drill, while the students only learn the drills that will make them 'effective fighters'. Not ever student will become a teacher - that is fine - but by learning the kata they have all the moves if they ever want to without then having to go off to 'teacher training classes' to learn them.

If someone spends some years learning all the drills, and by right of combat (or some other demonstration) gains the coveted Black Belt - then that would be a good student. If (a few years later) they feel a desire to pass on their knowledge - how many would put themselves through more months of learning (and testing) to see where they had got all their drill moves from? The chances are they would simply teach the drills they were taught - and everything else would be lost. Yes - they could teach a new batch of 'good fighters' - but they wouldn't be teaching {insert kata based art here}

You mention kata as a 'memory exercise'. No argument there - it is a workout for your brain as well as your body. You know the old idea of "use it or lose it". I pointed out my age difference to Tekkengod :D I have started this late in life - but look forward to what I'll learn in the next 30 years (putting me in my mid 70's :eek: ) Will you still be practicing your arts then?

[Kwajman]

Love it, can't practice it enough.

[Timmy Boy]

This has come up (in other wording) elsewhere between you and I. I have not figured out if it a deliberate ploy of debate, or a fact you have overlooked, but you are giving the pro-kata members an impossible burden of proof in their justification of the effectiveness of kata. The only person who could prove that kata (in itself) is effective is a winning fighter who trains 100% kata. If they have any other method of training then you will atribute their skills to that method and discount kata. I don't think there is any such animal. :bang:

It's not an impossible burden of proof. People who only train alive do well in competition. People who train predominantly with dead patterns apart from a bit of tip tap overly restrictive sparring don't. People who use both methods also do well. The missing link is therefore obviously the live training.

With, say, padwork, there are very clear transitional benefits. You can watch someone do padwork and then see them spar using the same techniques, evasion, footwork etc. All kata is is learning the movements, and you don't learn to fight just by learning movements, hence you have bunkai. Those of us who do sport MAs prefer to cut to the chase.

So you put it on the heads of the teachers to learn the kata and extract the elements they want to drill, while the students only learn the drills that will make them 'effective fighters'. Not ever student will become a teacher - that is fine - but by learning the kata they have all the moves if they ever want to without then having to go off to 'teacher training classes' to learn them.

They will learn the moves better anyway through live drills. You already conceded this point, and you said that people use kata because not everyone trains for effectiveness. Either you're in this debate or not. Please decide, otherwise this thread is going to go the same way as the "kata: an amateur's perspective" thread, with you changing your tack to "well not everyone trains for effectiveness" but then coming back in with effectiveness arguments whenever you think of a new one. Please stick to the point of the thread otherwise it will go around in circles again.

If someone spends some years learning all the drills, and by right of combat (or some other demonstration) gains the coveted Black Belt - then that would be a good student. If (a few years later) they feel a desire to pass on their knowledge - how many would put themselves through more months of learning (and testing) to see where they had got all their drill moves from? The chances are they would simply teach the drills they were taught - and everything else would be lost. Yes - they could teach a new batch of 'good fighters' - but they wouldn't be teaching {insert kata based art here}

So what? As long as it works it doesn't matter if you're teaching "the true" form of whatever art you do. If techniques are really that effective, they won't be lost unless they're banned.

You mention kata as a 'memory exercise'. No argument there - it is a workout for your brain as well as your body. You know the old idea of "use it or lose it". I pointed out my age difference to Tekkengod :D I have started this late in life - but look forward to what I'll learn in the next 30 years (putting me in my mid 70's :eek: ) Will you still be practicing your arts then?

If something is pointless, it makes no difference whether you can carry it on for decades or not. And yes, I probably will be practicing what I do in 30 years' time.

[Taliar]

Timmy Boy - just to point out this thread is about wether you love or hate kata, not its effectiveness.

I like kata for about 10 minutes, then i'm bored and want to do something else. Like to use them as part of the warm up or cool down stage of a session. Also enjoy breaking them down to work on individual techniques. But endlessly repeating them is boring and pointless in my opinion.

[Jang Bong]

They will learn the moves better anyway through live drills. You already conceded this point, and you said that people use kata because not everyone trains for effectiveness. Either you're in this debate or not. Please decide, otherwise this thread is going to go the same way as the "kata: an amateur's perspective" thread, with you changing your tack to "well not everyone trains for effectiveness" but then coming back in with effectiveness arguments whenever you think of a new one. Please stick to the point of the thread otherwise it will go around in circles again.


Sorry!!! I thought I was totally consistent in my expressed thoughts. The fact that I can see a lot of different benefits in kata means that I can put forward any one of those benefits - I'm not detracting from any other benefits I may have mentioned before.

With regard to the highlighted section... I've never put live drills down (that would be stupid), but where did I say you learn moves better? :confused:

If you think I'm disrupting these threads (that keep springing up), then fine - I'll pull out and let you get on with it.

[jonmonk]

Timmy Boy - just to point out this thread is about wether you love or hate kata, not its effectiveness.
Apologies to Sonshu, this is as much my fault as anyone elses. In answer to that question I'd have to say yes.

I like kata for about 10 minutes, then i'm bored and want to do something else. Like to use them as part of the warm up or cool down stage of a session. Also enjoy breaking them down to work on individual techniques. But endlessly repeating them is boring and pointless in my opinion.
I was kinda in the process of thinking up an intelligent response to TB's post that would cover that too but as you rightly say, it's getting off the point. Perhaps another thread would be more appropriate.

jonmonk - I LOVE the WinZip analogy
Thankyou, I aim to please :D

[bcullen]

It's not an impossible burden of proof. People who only train alive do well in competition. People who train predominantly with dead patterns apart from a bit of tip tap overly restrictive sparring don't. People who use both methods also do well. The missing link is therefore obviously the live training.

With, say, padwork, there are very clear transitional benefits. You can watch someone do padwork and then see them spar using the same techniques, evasion, footwork etc. All kata is is learning the movements, and you don't learn to fight just by learning movements, hence you have bunkai. Those of us who do sport MAs prefer to cut to the chase.



They will learn the moves better anyway through live drills. You already conceded this point, and you said that people use kata because not everyone trains for effectiveness. Either you're in this debate or not. Please decide, otherwise this thread is going to go the same way as the "kata: an amateur's perspective" thread, with you changing your tack to "well not everyone trains for effectiveness" but then coming back in with effectiveness arguments whenever you think of a new one. Please stick to the point of the thread otherwise it will go around in circles again.



So what? As long as it works it doesn't matter if you're teaching "the true" form of whatever art you do. If techniques are really that effective, they won't be lost unless they're banned.



If something is pointless, it makes no difference whether you can carry it on for decades or not. And yes, I probably will be practicing what I do in 30 years' time.

The argument has not been altered some of the reasons forms are used:

A) It functions as a mnemonic strategy -- Makes complex moves easy to recall and remember.
B) Exercise -- The exadggerated movements and deep stances help develop the body. Try Ditang quan or drunken forms sometime if you don't think it is "real exercise".
C) Coordination/Control -- It teaches fine motor skills and facillitates coordination of mind, body and spirit (intent). A moving meditation to develop a harmonious balance within and without.

Since we're on about logical circles; first the arguement is against kata as a "dead" traning method, but now we're adding in "tip tap" sparring so how do you define "alive" training?


Forms/kata are just one piece of the whole; drills, pad/bag work and sparring are important to development as well.

Since you want to talk of effectiveness:

How has training raw mechanics helped you?

How often do you get in fights?

Do you train RBSD and weapons too?

[Timmy Boy]

The argument has not been altered some of the reasons forms are used:

A) It functions as a mnemonic strategy -- Makes complex moves easy to recall and remember.

Not as well as training live does, as training live teaches you to bring things up instinctively.

B) Exercise -- The exadggerated movements and deep stances help develop the body. Try Ditang quan or drunken forms sometime if you don't think it is "real exercise".

Hard training is exercise anyway, so even if kata IS good for exercise, that doesn't mean it should be incorporated.

C) Coordination/Control -- It teaches fine motor skills and facillitates coordination of mind, body and spirit (intent). A moving meditation to develop a harmonious balance within and without.

I don't buy into all the meditation stuff so I guess I can't provide an argument here.

Since we're on about logical circles; first the arguement is against kata as a "dead" traning method, but now we're adding in "tip tap" sparring so how do you define "alive" training?

Extremely light and restrictive sparring is an alive training method, but not a particularly good one. Alive training is where you are up against a resisting opponent in some form or another, which develops real skills like reflexes that you will actually use.

Forms/kata are just one piece of the whole; drills, pad/bag work and sparring are important to development as well.

I still don't see why whole katas need to be practiced at a time.

Since you want to talk of effectiveness:

How has training raw mechanics helped you?

What are raw mechanics?

How often do you get in fights?

I've been in a fair few, since my image attracts the wrong kind of attention.

Do you train RBSD and weapons too?

I don't train weapons because I can't carry a weapon around with me in real life. I haven't trained in RBSD before, but I think Sonshu (my instructor) said something about doing a bit of it.

[Timmy Boy]

Timmy Boy - just to point out this thread is about wether you love or hate kata, not its effectiveness.

No, but it makes no sense to me to defend kata from an effectiveness standpoint, and then suddenly change your tack to "yeah well not everyone trains for effectiveness" when effectiveness arguments have run out. Tell you what, I'll leave this thread alone since I'm obviously rubbing people up the wrong way.

[jonmonk]

Hell, I can't resist the urge for one more post on this kata effectiveness thing, sorry in advance :D

I think that the real danger here is that by comparing kata with live training you're confusing medium and message. It's like saying that a letter is more effective than the envelope you sent it in. IMO if you really want to consider kata as effective then you should be looking at how effective a teaching medium it is and it should be compared to things like lecture notes or a video. How many of us would attempt to learn a martial art from a book? Probably none. How many of us own martial arts books though? Is it ineffective training for us to own and read martial arts books? Should we just throw all our books away?

So does kata provide an effective medium? Well, yes and no I think! The kata are still with us in some form or other but the teaching that goes with them, opens the envelope if you like, is now missing in many cases (though not all). We have the envelopes, we're just having trouble opening them. We stand much more chance of being able to do this though if we spend a long time looking at them. Firstly we need to ensure we have the complete envelope, then we need to inspect it carefully to find out the best place to try to open it. That's why we need to spend a long time practicing and studying kata.

[medi]

Isn't the real issue here, that all karate sucks?












*runs and hides* :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[jonmonk]

Isn't the real issue here, that all karate sucks?
*runs and hides* :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Damn, you're right, I don't enjoy it at all :cry:
Oh well, back to diamond crushing then. :D

[bcullen]

Not as well as training live does, as training live teaches you to bring things up instinctively.

Any repetitive motion becomes instinctive over time.


Hard training is exercise anyway, so even if kata IS good for exercise, that doesn't mean it should be incorporated.

It is good exercise, the two forms I mentioned are probably to physically demanding for eighty percent of the people reading this to perform.


I don't buy into all the meditation stuff so I guess I can't provide an argument here.

That's good its not for sale. ;) I'm not using it in the mystical prayer-like state of being, but in the focused and totally aware of your actions state of being.


Extremely light and restrictive sparring is an alive training method, but not a particularly good one. Alive training is where you are up against a resisting opponent in some form or another, which develops real skills like reflexes that you will actually use.

Even light contact fighters are resisting. The amount of force used doesn't change reflex actions.


I still don't see why whole katas need to be practiced at a time.

Take off the self-imposed limitations you've set and maybe you will.

So if Sonshu is teaching you a new technique does he just tell you or demostrate it once and start throwing punches at you?


What are raw mechanics?

The purely physical aspects of training and the limited subset of techniques you drill.


I've been in a fair few, since my image attracts the wrong kind of attention.

It's attitude not image that attracts the wrong attention (BTW Is that is your real pic in the avatar? Not a dig just curious if that is where the image comes from.)


I don't train weapons because I can't carry a weapon around with me in real life. I haven't trained in RBSD before, but I think Sonshu (my instructor) said something about doing a bit of it.

What is and isn't a weapon is purely up the creativity of the weilder. If your training purely for fighting effectiveness then RBSD is what you are looking for, not combative sports. But you train in combative sports(?) Do you want to protect yourself or just learn sport fighting?

[Taliar]

No, but it makes no sense to me to defend kata from an effectiveness standpoint, and then suddenly change your tack to "yeah well not everyone trains for effectiveness" when effectiveness arguments have run out. Tell you what, I'll leave this thread alone since I'm obviously rubbing people up the wrong way.

I'm not saying that it's wrong to talk about the usefullness of kata. Just that the Original post was Kata - love it or hate it. NOT Kata is it effective. Yet it seems to have been hijacked into yet another kata effectiveness thread. You could absolutely love kata and still think it has little effectiveness in training. The point is the question was about 'personal opinions'.

[Timmy Boy]

Any repetitive motion becomes instinctive over time.

Not under pressure, unless you drill it properly.

It is good exercise, the two forms I mentioned are probably to physically demanding for eighty percent of the people reading this to perform.

Like I said, all training is good exercise.

Even light contact fighters are resisting. The amount of force used doesn't change reflex actions.

I do light contact sparring myself, it's a good drill, but if it's too restrictive in terms of target areas it can become crap very quickly.

Take off the self-imposed limitations you've set and maybe you will.

What self-imposed limitations?

So if Sonshu is teaching you a new technique does he just tell you or demostrate it once and start throwing punches at you?

Suppose I want to learn a jab-cross combo. He'll show me how to do a jab-cross combo, then we go straight into sparring or padwork. I don't need to do 20 techniques in a particular order to do this.

The purely physical aspects of training and the limited subset of techniques you drill.

Then yes they have helped me.

It's attitude not image that attracts the wrong attention (BTW Is that is your real pic in the avatar? Not a dig just curious if that is where the image comes from.)

Yes that is me in the picture, and yes image does attract the wrong kind of attention. I can be walking along peacefully, minding my own business, and some random chav who I've never met before will want to beat me up because I have long hair and I wear a long black trenchcoat.

What is and isn't a weapon is purely up the creativity of the weilder. If your training purely for fighting effectiveness then RBSD is what you are looking for, not combative sports. But you train in combative sports(?) Do you want to protect yourself or just learn sport fighting?

I refuse to get into the debate on sport vs street again, my opinions are already well known.

[bcullen]

Not under pressure, unless you drill it properly.

Like I said, all training is good exercise.

I do light contact sparring myself, it's a good drill, but if it's too restrictive in terms of target areas it can become crap very quickly.


What self-imposed limitations?

Suppose I want to learn a jab-cross combo. He'll show me how to do a jab-cross combo, then we go straight into sparring or padwork. I don't need to do 20 techniques in a particular order to do this.

Then yes they have helped me.

Yes that is me in the picture, and yes image does attract the wrong kind of attention. I can be walking along peacefully, minding my own business, and some random chav who I've never met before will want to beat me up because I have long hair and I wear a long black trenchcoat.

I refuse to get into the debate on sport vs street again, my opinions are already well known.

ROFL! OMG! I just realized I'm having a discussion with me in my late teens and early twenties. Another of life's ironic twists. BTW: I bet I have 4-6 inches in length on ya :p

[edges]

What is RBSD, please forgive my ignorance.

Now I have trained in a variety of systems, all of which have a version of kata.
In Kickboxing we shadow boxed ie free form kata training, we also prscticed set routines on the pads, ie two person kata training, we then attempted to apply those moves in a sparring situation ie live kata training.

In Karate, we practice a kata, then take a section and work it on pads (where applicable), with a cooperative partner and then in a free flow situation

In Wing chun we did exactly as in Karate

In FMA we practice Armara drills, ie kata in the air and on each other

A training partner of mine practices Vale Tudo and has a selection of lock flow drills, ie two person kata.

The arguments put forward so far are really not about is kata effective. Somebody mentioned a reference book, you refere to the sections you need at any given moment, not reading the book cover to cover.

The argument is more in the vain of are the training methods used allowing kata to be used to it's full advantage. Kata is just a name, any sequence of moves can be called a kata, it's what you do with it.

In this case I agree with the MMA guys, many schools have lost the idea behind traditional kata, however there are those out there that are working hard to revive a training method that has been effective for centuries.

Nothing new has been invented in the martial arts world, regardless of the system you choose you all use more or less the same movements common to all the fighting systems.

I work on a door and have found one of my favoured movements came from training in the Pinan series of kata, and it's a move i had never used on a body, not in sparring or bunkai, untill I began doorwork. A move that I didn't even know the application untill after bringing a guy out in a restraint and thinking back the next day and thinking "stone me, thats from Pinan Godan!!"

Now thats an effective use of Kata

[Timmy Boy]

Now I have trained in a variety of systems, all of which have a version of kata.
In Kickboxing we shadow boxed ie free form kata training, we also prscticed set routines on the pads, ie two person kata training, we then attempted to apply those moves in a sparring situation ie live kata training.

But the very fact that it is free form is what makes it *not* kata.

[Bil Gee]

you will NEVER see someone who has done katas their whole lives be successful in K-1 or the UFC. make sense?

so what

[Davey Bones]

i'm sure you have more than a few on me :D i'm 16. yes, i'm sure of lots of stuff, but lots more i'm not. i'll take that. Dosen't work for me, nor does it appear to work. think about this.
you will NEVER see someone who has done katas their whole lives be successful in K-1 or the UFC. make sense?

:bang: :cry: :bang: :cry: :bang: :cry: :woo:

Not all of us see that as the benchmark of a successful MA career, Tekken, but thanks for sharing. And uhm, what about all the guys who crosstrain? If they crosstrain in a TMA, they do kata. Not as much as a sole TMAer will do, but they do kata. :eek:

[Knight_Errant]

Hate it. Always have done, always will. Force me to do it to get my belt and I'll gnaw your testicles off.

[Bil Gee]

Hate it. Always have done, always will. Force me to do it to get my belt and I'll gnaw your testicles off.

Never seen that one in a Kata.

[Melanie]

What is RBSD, please forgive my ignorance.

Reality Based Self Defence :)

[Jang Bong]

Hate it. Always have done, always will. Force me to do it to get my belt and I'll gnaw your testicles off.

Never seen that one in a Kata.

No... but the 'rip them off' is in a few :D

[Bil Gee]

No... but the 'rip them off' is in a few :D

Good point, my guess is that every TMA has at least one technique for ripping 'em off.

[Knight_Errant]

What is RBSD, please forgive my ignorance.
Ridiculously bad self defence.

[ShihanBKS]

Kata may not teach strictly self-defense. But it does provide other values when done properly. Kata helps with things like balance, technique, focus, and breathing.

[Knight_Errant]

If you focus on improving your stance work and hip rotation, you'll get something out of it.

[Kwajman]

You have to internalize the kate/form to understand what it is your attempting to re-create. The battle with the opponent.

[tekkengod]

so you want to sit around and re-create a battle between 2 people who are obviously dead as a result, and do tthe exact same motion combos and timing that they thought was a good idea while the RBSD guys are learning how to survive 8 stabs to the face :D wow, what a training meathod. :rolleyes:

[Slindsay]

If you focus on improving your stance work and hip rotation, you'll get something out of it.

/me collpases and goes into shock because KE managed to say something that may actually be interpreted as positive about kata.

[Bil Gee]

so you want to sit around and re-create a battle between 2 people who are obviously dead as a result, and do tthe exact same motion combos and timing that they thought was a good idea while the RBSD guys are learning how to survive 8 stabs to the face :D wow, what a training meathod. :rolleyes:

Its come as such a surprise to everyone on the forum that this is how you feel about a feature of TMAs.

[tekkengod]

Its come as such a surprise to everyone on the forum that this is how you feel about a feature of TMAs.

what? that i promote effective training that maximizes time spent training?

yeah, why would i ever want that? i mean i'd be much happier doing kata all day, plus kata will prepare me for the street/cage :rolleyes:

Psin, my first art was a TMA. I hold a 1st dan in JJ.

[Davey Bones]

But tekken, enough with "the cage" already. At least move on to "t3h 5tr33t" :Angel:

[tekkengod]

But tekken, enough with "the cage" already. At least move on to "t3h 5tr33t" :Angel:

but i just mentioned both. the street (TM) would eat me, i'mJUST a helpless MMAist/jujitsu BB/MT fighter, what would I know about the
deadly street (TM) :rolleyes:

[Davey Bones]

Where is the mooning smiley....?????

[tekkengod]

it gets a sarcastic smiley.

[Davey Bones]

:rolleyes:

[the_clam]

whatever. IMA will rip Karate a new ******* in my opinion. :woot

[medi]

LMAO @ 'woot'

aahhh that takes me back

[Lilika]

Does my art have Kata? Yes. Do I do Kata in class and testing? Yes. Would I rather eat my own eyes out with my toes than do Kata? YES!!

[Eero]

I didn't like katas when I trained Wado-Ryu. I never really understood what I should be learning.

Now in kung fu I really enjoy learning the forms. I have been able to learn many new techniques and actually remember them when sparring. I practice my forms often and I feel I'm gaining real benefit from them.

Other reason is that I like doing them. I'm not the kind of guy who gets into fights and I'm not competing so I feel I have time to do the forms just for the fun of it.

[Knight_Errant]

/me collpases and goes into shock because KE managed to say something that may actually be interpreted as positive about kata.
__________________
Don't worry- it won't happen again :D

[edges]

But the very fact that it is free form is what makes it *not* kata.

Not in the strictest sense. But after learning your kata/drills you move into free play, it's merely the next progression, learning the flow of movement.

[Bil Gee]

For me, the Siu Lim Tao form in Wing Chun has been very useful for my training.


It has strengthened my legs enormously giving me a much more stable stance.
It has also done a lot to strengthen my wrist and muscles used for striking and blocking
It has steadily trained me to automatically go into the optimum positions in terms of body mechanics so that when under pressure during drills or Chi Sau less conscious effort is required.
I also find it a useful tool for dealing with stress, after I've spent some time going through the form I tend to feel much more focused and relaxed.
These are really big benefits, and of course it is something that I don't need a partner so I can do it anytime I've got 40 minutes to spare.

[Sonshu]

Does my art have Kata? Yes. Do I do Kata in class and testing? Yes. Would I rather eat my own eyes out with my toes than do Kata? YES!!

Very funny! :D

With you 100% on that one mate, Taijitsu had a few which I hated, Karate had a lot which I loathed.

Nice post!!!!

[minimal]

Here's another question for Psin:

How many moves, roughtly, are in Siu Lim Tao?

I had someone try to show me Ju Jutsu and Karate Kata a while back but I don't tihnk I could learn them because there are too many moves. I can't learn arbitrary stuff, history, geography, etc. easily. I can learn a technique, and that's still a form but it' usually got the minimum possible number of moves in it. It's not a whole fight (although it can be if it's the right technique).

[Sonshu]

Why not try an art with no forms or kata to it.

Depending on what you want to learn for try a RBSD style or kickboxing etc - no forms to remember then or new language, history etc?

[jonmonk]

I know this was aimed at psin, I hope you don't mind if I jump in.

I had someone try to show me Ju Jutsu and Karate Kata a while back but I don't tihnk I could learn them because there are too many moves.

I can't learn arbitrary stuff, history, geography, etc. easily. I can learn a technique, and that's still a form but it' usually got the minimum possible number of moves in it. It's not a whole fight (although it can be if it's the right technique).
I think there are a couple of points to note here.

Firstly, no-one would expect you to learn a kata in one session, they wouldn't expect you to be able to perform it properly after one session and certainly wouldn't expect you to have any idea how to apply that knowledge. Now you could argue that if you were learning another non-traditional style that that time could be better spent learning something 'useful' that you could apply but it's for you to decide whether you want to go that route or not. I would say it depends very much on what interests you and what your motives are for studying an MA in the first place. I'm not interested in passing judgement on any MA style.

Secondly, whether you end up learning a martial art with kata in it or not, you will still need to be absorbing lots of information. This will take patience and dedication and the last thing you need is a mind set that goes something along the lines of "I don't think I can learn that". C'mon mate, of course you can learn it, you just have to want it.

Thirdly, I wish people would get over this thing about kata being some kind of prearranged fight. That's not what it is. Kata is a method for passing a fighting style from a teacher to a student. It is designed so that it can be remembered. Kata training starts by learning the moves of the form but it doesn't end there. Having learned the form, the kata is studied and the applications practiced and yes, this training can be live. IMO this is still Kata training.

[NaughtyKnight]

I hate patterns at the moment, they really annoy me as they dont even reflect how people fight. That and I suck at trying to remmeber them!

All the senior belts tell me that I will start to like them later on, but I seriously doubt that.

[tekkengod]

KC, thats called a marketing ploy bud

[Eero]

How many moves, roughtly, are in Siu Lim Tao?



Where I study they teach modified version that consists of about 87 moves.

[NaughtyKnight]

KC, thats called a marketing ploy bud

lol.

Nah, I can see what their talking about.

[Bil Gee]

Here's another question for Psin:

How many moves, roughtly, are in Siu Lim Tao?

I had someone try to show me Ju Jutsu and Karate Kata a while back but I don't tihnk I could learn them because there are too many moves. I can't learn arbitrary stuff, history, geography, etc. easily. I can learn a technique, and that's still a form but it' usually got the minimum possible number of moves in it. It's not a whole fight (although it can be if it's the right technique).

Around about 108 depending on the lineage of the school. But there are only three empty handed forms in Wing Chun and you are expected to spend at least a year on each before you move onto the next one.

[Lilika]

Very funny! :D

With you 100% on that one mate, Taijitsu had a few which I hated, Karate had a lot which I loathed.

Nice post!!!!

Thanks. Around the 6th time of doing Shisochin is when I start craving grape juice and a pair of Nikes. :D

[Jang Bong]

I can't learn arbitrary stuff, history, geography, etc. easily.

That is interesting because my 'mental' learning works the same. This is why my maths (following rules) is far better than my spelling (remembering how every damn word is spelled). This is why I DO learn forms well (a sequence of linked techniques that flow) rather than learning every individual technique.

Looks like you have a different strength in 'physical' learning compared to your 'mental' learning. It's all good - you find what works for you ;)

Nah, I can see what their talking about.

kc - is that 'Strike 2' ? :D

[Davey Bones]

I have to agree that they can get VERY repetitive. After the 8th or 9th time of long one, I do start to lose my attention span. Yes, I do believe there are benefits, but dang, after a while I'd rather just spar.

[bassai]

I like them and i agree that if you dont like an application your shown find a better one :) I think thats probably why i like them so much and they can be a great aid to teching,last week my instructor was ill so i just used movements and combinations from heian nidan for basic movements and some(basic) kumite drills finishing the class with the kata itself.

[seiki juku kid]

International Okinawa Shorin–Ryu
Seibukan Karate–Do Association

How I Think Kata Was Created And Perpetuated
I believe that form follows function. Following that principle it would mean that the application, scenario or function was thought of or experienced before inclusion in a "kata" or prearranged movements that depict fighting sequences.

The creator of the kata may have had any number of techniques in his prearranged sequences that possibly could have come from others or the creator's experiences or imagination. Perhaps the creator only had a small number of these "applications" in the beginning and over time added others.

The creator's kata would over time change due to circumstances, events or intuitive reasons derived from training or exchanging knowledge with other kata creators.

The creator's kata only lived on if it stood the test of time and functionality. The kata would be propagated by the students of the teacher if they derived the benefit they were looking for and they had faith in the potential value of the applications for their particular situation. This last sentence answers Mr. McCarthy's first question when referenced my comment that the kata was influenced by the needs of the time and of the particular
practioner.

For example; if you had inherited a kata that had twenty-four self-defense scenarios or opportunities such as Jion you would want to understand all twenty-four movements but you would not necessarily believe that all twenty-four scenarios would be needed by you for your life's situation. So you take three of the scenarios and work to become very proficient on them letting the other twenty-three take less of a position in your individual self-defense scheme. Over time as you passed on your training to someone else they may find value in those three or more closely examine and practice some combination of the other twenty-one but during this transformation you continue to practice the entire kata as the value of the combined movements develop your ability to move in the general way or scenario of the entire kata.

I found that the understanding of the kata on Okinawa was in fact deep and wide but the focus was narrow and this focus varied from teacher to teacher. Did any one teacher achieve skill on a complete basis? Perhaps they had knowledge and some had wider skill sets than others but IMHO the focus was narrow and skill was very high.

My teacher taught that there were four defenses against a grab. I followed his teaching even though I knew there were more than four possible ways to be grabbed. Due to my Shotokan background before arriving on Okinawa I did not ask the obvious question of why only four. Unfortunately my teacher died and I never heard his explanation of why only four. His son added three techniques and due to my understanding that the Okinawans do not mind you asking questions I asked why seven now versus four. He said his father thought that due to his circumstances, personality and daily life he would only afford an attacker four potential ways to be grabbed so why practice more. My sensei added three because he felt he needed them due to his circumstances that were due to age and change of environment. Where did they find the seven techniques? From the vast reservoir of knowledge of the kata. Form follows function.

The second question was in response to my relating the message on the calligraphy Tomoyose sensei gave me. "The secret to karate is in the hard work".


I was not referencing the age old response that many teachers give when asked about the meaning of the kata. Just work hard it will come to you. The reference Tomoyose sensei was giving is that to value the importance of kata you train your body continually on the movements of the kata, and to continue your intellectual understanding of the kata takes effort. The value is in the effort. What if I spent a lifetime training and studying the kata and never was presented the opportunity to defend myself. The value of the kata then would be in the effort or hard work. We were all created to work and are not fully challenged without adequate work and accomplishments.

I hope this answers the questions and shares my thoughts on kata evolution and value.

Gambatte

Dan Smith

[Bil Gee]

If you change the colour I might read it.

[NaughtyKnight]

i think my eyes just fell out of my head.

[Jang Bong]

Give the lass a break - I found that quite readable and very interesting :)

Cheers seiki juku kid - nice find. (That information and this thread ;) ) :)

[Slindsay]

Good points of kata:

1) Physical exercise
2) Opportunity to perfect your hitting the air technique (Yes it's different to hitting a person but still usefull for teachnig principles)
3) Can be extremely relaxing
4) Can look cool
5) Can serve as a text book for all the moves in your system (Though often doesnt)

Bad points

1) It's the ultimate in dead trainning
2) The mechanics of a tefchnique change slightly when you strike something rather than someone
3) The repeat a move to get it into muscle memory thing is crap
4) Takes timne away from more productive forms of trainning
5) Teaches some very bad habits (Hand to the hip when not being used anyone)

[HearWa]

I must admit it can be good for teaching footwork.
Not to blow my own horn or anything, but I'm a living example of that. I'm a Kung Fu guy, but I once went to a Judo seminar once and the instructor was doing a training partner exercise for footwork. Basically, we had to grab onto eachothers shirt collars and try to out-maneuver one another with footwork while trying to set up for a hip throw.

We were both very surprised when I begun to move: my footwork was very exact, and he couldn't set me up properly. I was also surprised when I later discovered that the footwork I had came straight from the *** Fu ("Taming the Tiger") and the Gung Gee forms of Hung Gar.

[Slindsay]

Actually thats something I find in any sort of grappling attacik.. i find it easier to just copy the movement of the teacher a couple of times then try it on a partner so that the actuall technique needs to be refined rather than corrected when I work with the partner.

[NZ Ninja]

Great thread
I think katas are good for developing fluid movment as you dont want to be standing still training etc.
I like to practice things slowly Tai Chi style,great for balance too.
I think theres alot of things missing in katas eg-,footwork ,body movment and grabs instead if punch,s.
Would you teach the enemy the way your going to fight?or would you teach it with important parts missing to give you the upper hand incase of hand to hand combat?
Also some teachers have a better understanding of what they are doing,others know how to apply them properly,these things make a big difference.
Yes katas can be boring and seem pointless to some, but if you look real close you might just find some treasure or discover a secret. :D

Cheers

[seiki juku kid]

International Okinawa Shorin–Ryu
Seibukan Karate–Do Association

How I Think Kata Was Created And Perpetuated
I believe that form follows function. Following that principle it would mean that the application, scenario or function was thought of or experienced before inclusion in a "kata" or prearranged movements that depict fighting sequences.

The creator of the kata may have had any number of techniques in his prearranged sequences that possibly could have come from others or the creator's experiences or imagination. Perhaps the creator only had a small number of these "applications" in the beginning and over time added others.

The creator's kata would over time change due to circumstances, events or intuitive reasons derived from training or exchanging knowledge with other kata creators.

The creator's kata only lived on if it stood the test of time and functionality. The kata would be propagated by the students of the teacher if they derived the benefit they were looking for and they had faith in the potential value of the applications for their particular situation. This last sentence answers Mr. McCarthy's first question when referenced my comment that the kata was influenced by the needs of the time and of the particular
practioner.

For example; if you had inherited a kata that had twenty-four self-defense scenarios or opportunities such as Jion you would want to understand all twenty-four movements but you would not necessarily believe that all twenty-four scenarios would be needed by you for your life's situation. So you take three of the scenarios and work to become very proficient on them letting the other twenty-three take less of a position in your individual self-defense scheme. Over time as you passed on your training to someone else they may find value in those three or more closely examine and practice some combination of the other twenty-one but during this transformation you continue to practice the entire kata as the value of the combined movements develop your ability to move in the general way or scenario of the entire kata.

I found that the understanding of the kata on Okinawa was in fact deep and wide but the focus was narrow and this focus varied from teacher to teacher. Did any one teacher achieve skill on a complete basis? Perhaps they had knowledge and some had wider skill sets than others but IMHO the focus was narrow and skill was very high.

My teacher taught that there were four defenses against a grab. I followed his teaching even though I knew there were more than four possible ways to be grabbed. Due to my Shotokan background before arriving on Okinawa I did not ask the obvious question of why only four. Unfortunately my teacher died and I never heard his explanation of why only four. His son added three techniques and due to my understanding that the Okinawans do not mind you asking questions I asked why seven now versus four. He said his father thought that due to his circumstances, personality and daily life he would only afford an attacker four potential ways to be grabbed so why practice more. My sensei added three because he felt he needed them due to his circumstances that were due to age and change of environment. Where did they find the seven techniques? From the vast reservoir of knowledge of the kata. Form follows function.

The second question was in response to my relating the message on the calligraphy Tomoyose sensei gave me. "The secret to karate is in the hard work".


I was not referencing the age old response that many teachers give when asked about the meaning of the kata. Just work hard it will come to you. The reference Tomoyose sensei was giving is that to value the importance of kata you train your body continually on the movements of the kata, and to continue your intellectual understanding of the kata takes effort. The value is in the effort. What if I spent a lifetime training and studying the kata and never was presented the opportunity to defend myself. The value of the kata then would be in the effort or hard work. We were all created to work and are not fully challenged without adequate work and accomplishments.

I hope this answers the questions and shares my thoughts on kata evolution and value.

Gambatte
Dan Smith

is that better?? sorry people i can read it and didnt consider that everyone else might not be able to :cry: :cry: :cry:

[seiki juku kid]

dammit, meant to make it bigger not smaller! o forget it

[Jang Bong]

Don't worry about it ;) If people are genuinely interested (rather than nit-picking) they would shade it / copy it / paste it into notepad or Word, then set the size so they can read it for themselves :)

You found, you informed, you tried to make it better.... In my book, you did good :D

What if I spent a lifetime training and studying the kata and never was presented the opportunity to defend myself. The value of the kata then would be in the effort or hard work.

For my money, if I never need to use the skills I'm learning in my life then I will be a happy man. I'm enjoying what I am learning, and not planning to go looking for other 'fighters' to test my 'skills' against. If other martial artists think less of me for that then...... who cares :D :Angel: