Sydney IMA : Ma Chuan Xu (BGZ) Lessons

[Kat]

Ma Chuan Xu is in Sydney and is giving lessons on the basics of BGZ(Liang Zhen Pu style) for a couple of weeks only.
Contact Kingley Fong for prices and details.
k.fong@unsw.edu.au

Here's a chance to part with a lot of money :rolleyes: and experience what Beijing practioners reguard as the standard in BGZ training.This might convince people of the cultural differences that effect and influence training in IMA.Perceptions and attitudes that may bring light as to why there are so many misunderstandings within IMA.

Ma Chuan Xu
A link to an interveiw from Jared's site
http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html

[Azrael]

Hi Kat,

I myself am actually a (fairly fresh) student of Kingsleys, and am 'parting with alot of money' (lol, nice one) to do the intensive course next week. How are you involved in all this if you don't mind my asking?

[Syd]

Az,

Are you training under Yang Mian and doing all the iron body training? I've seen this site quite a while ago and while curious I was not quite convinced. Have you any thoughts on this guy?

[nzric]

Kat,

Thanks for the information. I have emailed Kingsley Fong and if there are spaces, I'll be going to the five-hour session on the 26th.

I'm keen to see what it's all about - hopefully this'll give me a good introduction to the wider world of IMA, I'm sure it'll be an eye-opener. Azrael - it'll be good to see you there. Introduce yourself if you see me, my name's Richard and I'll be the tall one who doesn't understand Chinese.

[Azrael]

Hi Syd,

Yes, I am training in the Yang Mian System directly under Master Yang Zhen Hua, and do train in the steel body aspects of this system. Do I have any thoughts on this guy (Master Yang)? Of course I do, he is my teacher, hehehe.

You know, when I was in the process of looking for a new school (and I really really looked), and heard about the system, I was pretty doubtful as well. As they say, when things sound to good to be true, they usually are. The website really does not do the style any justice. And I should know, because I myself wrote the majority of the material on there.

What can I say? Well, I could and say a whole lot about Master Yang. To me he is a father figure, and what I would consider to be one of the most amazing martial artists in the world. I've seen that man do things that I did not think were even possible, and I'd like to consider myself a very open minded kinda guy. He can do things that amaze and scare the absolute sh!t out of people at the same time.

Because I do frequent alot of forums, many people ask me about him and the style, but ultimatly anything I say can be written off as biased. The best thing anybody can do is to go over and meet him. He is more than happy to recieve people who are curious, as he himself loves the martial arts and is like a little boy in a lolly shop when it comes to dermonstrating his familys system. Even if you do not intend on training with him at all, go over and have a look anyway. He literally teaches at his home all day every day, so its not like you would be putting him out at all. Give him a call, or if you would feel more comfotable, send me an email, and I would be more than happy to arrange a metting for you.

Hope this helped you in some way. If you need more specific information, I would be more than happy to try and provide it, although I am hardly an authority on the matter.

[Azrael]

nzric: You too, and yes, I will do. Hahaha, ok, well, I'll be the short one who can't understand chinese. :P

[Syd]

Hey Az,

The question was not mean't to be offensive I assure you, but rather I knew you must be involved as you have the site in your sig.

I would very much like to visit your teacher sometime as I'm in Sydney. What I have yet to understand is what are the formal or general techniques in training for combat or self defense in this system.

It looks like a freeform system which doesn't use forms or set routines but rather seems to teach a principle of movement similar to what I can glean from certain aspects of I Chuan.

Could you fill in any gaps?

Best, Syd

[Azrael]

Hey Syd,

Yeah I know, don’t worry; I know you were not having a dig. It’s all good! :)

Well, to explain to you everything involved in the first stage of training would require me to write a book, so I'll give you a brief overview.

The first stage of Yang Mian training is base power development. At this initial stage, you are essentially preparing to use your body to its full potential, in such a way that is specifically suited to you. This is where you learn how to generate internal power in a natural way.

The next stage is learning various ways to express that natural, almost liquid like power. Master Yang likes to think of this stage as learning the alphabet. You learn various ways of punching, various ways of elbowing, various ways of using your entire body to attack.

Now that you know your abc's, its time to start making words. So you will learn how to turn that punch into an elbow. How to turn that elbow into a different kind of elbow. So you begin to see how to move your body, and fold it in such a way as to keep a constant barrage of high power strikes flowing out as if you were dancing. So now that you can make words, you start making sentences. Which word's flow well together? What makes sense? What suits you as an individual? How does that translate to someone you are speaking to? Make sense?

Now that you can string words together and make sentences, its time to learn how to speak. This is the freestyle component of the Yang Mian System (we do not have forms at all). This is where you get to take all that you have learnt and express yourself freely, however you wish, and experience all of the endless possibilities.

So now that you can speak, its time to learn how to have a conversation. At this level, you will be able to respond to any number of attacks, without even having to consider how. You just will. All your attacks will be instantly based on the movements of your opponent(s). If they change, you will be able to change faster, because your body knows how to from the outset, even though they may have started the 'conversation', you will be controlling it. At this level, your opponents are literally fighting a whirlwind. This may sound rather far fetched, but have no doubt it takes alot of serious, dedicated practice to reach this level. In fact, I think only a handful have gotten to this level period.

On top of all this of course, there are the steel body components, which actually start from the outset. The core base power methods are the foundation to this training. Initially you will be conditioning yourself, then when ready, with a partner, and also using a specially designed training device. As well as steel body, there is also the steel hand, which follows a very similar program.

The above is a very general overview. I'm sorry that I cannot go into more detail about specific training methods as it is not my place to do so. Master Yang would be the person to speak to regarding those matters. Hopefully I have made some sense though. It’s probably nothing that you already did not perceive.

Where abouts in Sydney are you? I'm currently in Bondi, but am moving to Penrith in the very near future.

[Syd]

Thanks AZ,

I apreciate your efforts to explain the system and yes, It pretty much sums up what I was suspecting from the outset. I downloaded some of the clips ages ago and thats pretty much what I thought at the time also.

If you move out to Penrith you'll be pretty close to me because I'm in the Blue mtns these days but I get down to Sydney twice a week sometimes. Perhaps we might do some training in future as I am always keen to learn and share training and techniques with other MA's.

my e-mail is psi_fan@yahoo.com, if you shoot me an e-mail I will set about contacting you and perhaps meeting up with Master Yang in the near future.

All the best, Syd ;)

[nzric]

Azrael: to be honest I don't know the first thing about the Yang Mian system but it sounds good. I wouldn't mind coming along to a few classes as well and seeing what it's all about (I'll check out the website later)

See you on Monday

[Mad-about-Bagua]

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/liujingru.html

I attended a similar 2 day weekend Intensive Bagua ( $180) course 4 months ago with Liu Jing Ru
( His videos are all over the internet and in Chinatown shops, Sydney)
Some 20 people from Sydney & Canberra attended.

My impression is that these intensive seminars are more suited to someone who has at least 1 year’s of Bagua ( or at least the first 4 Palm Changes)….as he rushed through the 8 palm changes in 8 hours…something that normally takes a year or more. A bit hard to learn it all and then remember it afterwards. But he encouraged us to bring our video cameras to record it all.
We were fortunate because Master Liu’s senior student was an Aussie bloke fluent in Mandarin and provided on-the-spot translations and assisted with the teaching.
(Miles Henderson from Canberra spent lots of time in Beijing with Master Liu). Later I found out Master Liu is also quite Wushu, given that his senior student was a All China Wushu Champion few years in a row.


Still, it is quite an experience to meet an authentic Master who speaks the language and comes from the culture from which the art grew.

Meantime, I’m quite happy to learn the same Bagua fighting applications from a local authentic Bagua teacher in Sydney, Sifu William Ho for $20 per lesson.

[Kat]

Arzael,
No connection,just passing on information as I know there are many Aussies on this site interested in IMA. This would give them a good introduction to a mainland BGZ style and how a mainlander approaches training.I have meet KF on serveral occasions but I practise different styles of TJQ and BGZ with different goals and attitudes. I have also had experience with the Liang Zhen Pu style while in Beijing.

Perhaps we could all come together in convenient time and display the variety of BGZ styles and apporaches.Syd's weekly get together could become an excellent trade of and exposure to different styles.

Hope you all have a good week.

[Azrael]

Perhaps we could all come together in convenient time and display the variety of BGZ styles and apporaches.Syd's weekly get together could become an excellent trade of and exposure to different styles.

Kat: I have only been involved in the study of bagua & taiji for a few months now, so i don't think I would be able to contribute alot to such a group, but that definatly sounds like a great plan. You can count me in on that. I was actually speaking to a few friends from different backgrounds today over lunch, and we were discussing the possibility of having a monthly meet (we thought weekly might prove difficult over a long time-frame).

We've had a number of small group meets in the past, which have proven fantastic. Just a whole bunch of like minded indivdiuals hooking up to learn and train both knowledge and technique. What do you think? I guess it all comes down to finding a central location that is suitable. I myself am currently in Bondi, but shortly moving to Penrith, but traveling does not really phase me.

[Syd]

G'day Az,

We're not picky about skill level because we are all at different levels in varying ways. Improvement on an individual level is whats important and none of us take ourselves so seriously that we'd be expecting anything from those that turn up.

Since we have a regular Sunday session it's already there and organized. All you have to do is turn up when you want to and thats it. We are
totally organic about what we practice each time so depending on who turns up, the sessions are wide open to all styles and all comers.

Your welcome to turn up and learn, contribute, teach, share or just hang out anytime. If you like you can join us this Sunday in Centennial Park from about 2pm onwards. Let me know if your interested and I'll send you details of the exact location.

Best, Syd

[Azrael]

Hey Syd,

Ahhh ok, my bad. I mis-read what Kat said, and did not realise you guys already had a regular training meet going. Thats awesome! I'm really impressed by that, much credit to you. How long have you guys been doing that for?

Thank you very much for the invite. You guys have a very respectable approach, and I really appreciate the offer. I will definatly come around one Sunday, as this sounds like alot of fun, and its always nice to put a face to the name. It may not be for a while, as I am currently in the middle of a lengthy move & job transition, but I will certainly join you as soon as the opportunity arises. Thanks again! :)

[Syd]

Hey Az, ;)

No worries mate, consider it a standing offer, you can rain check us at your leisure. We've only been going since just before X-mas 2003 and due to the holidays we've only had about 4 sessions so far, but each time we have a great time and we've got a bit of a rhythmn to what we are up to so like I said we just want to actually *do* the applications side of training and thats the major purpose of getting together apart from the fact that it costs us nothing.

Best, Syd

[Azrael]

:)

[nzric]

Hear hear - I'm one of the "taiji bandits" at Centennial park and the sessions have been excellent. As long as you're open to try anything (even mixing up taiji with bjj/bagua/wing chun/judo/interpretive dance), you'll have a good time.

I have actually been meaning to let you guys know I can't come on Sunday - I forgot we've got a friend coming from NZ so we're showing her the sights of Sydney. Let me know if it's on for next sunday and I'll do my best.

[Adc]

Hello I too an a Park dweller.
Hope you guys have a good time at the BGZ.
Emailed Kingely once but never meet him,I do know he's a lecturer at UNSW.So I should get to meet him.
Hope we get the Sunday session as big and openminded as possible,There seems to be a lot of Internal Aussies on this site.Comeon guys atleast show up and have a chat.

[nzric]

Adc - Hey dude, Good to see ur online! Hope you had a good time on Sunday

[nzric]

Ok folks - here's the deal:

I went to the five-hour intensive training session yesterday with Master Ma, and the bottom line is I loved it. $180 is a bit steep for even a five-hour session, but it was made up by the fact that master Ma is the real deal, and since the class was small we got a lot of one-on-one with him and good supervision for the basics. Also, it was great to be able to ask him any questions and get answers about IMA from someone who has lived and breathed it for most of his 71 years.

First, we all sat down and Master Ma gave us a summary of bagua. Kingsley Fong was very helpful the whole time and proved essential in translating everything from Chinese to English. It's interesting to note that Master Ma spoke just as strongly about using bagua principles in real life as in martial arts.

Then we began walking the circle, holding basic downward (pounding) palms. He was strict about holding the posture just right and I could feel the strong tendon stretch all the way from my shoulders to my hands. This took hours of walking and after a few more q&a sessions, we broke for lunch.

Once we got back, we waited for Ma to arrive. When he did he was laughing - a chinese reporter wanted to interview him for the Sydney newspaper but didn't believe in chi energy and demanded Master Ma give a demonstration. Ma proceeded to give him a couple of light nerve strikes - instant paralysis which was temporary but put the message across. He was a bit more cheerful and everyone in the class got more one-on-one, as well as comments on how much we were improving.

Then he began to talk about chin na. From the start it was obvious his influences come from real-life practice, as he has trained security bureaus in Beijing (and has a large network of schools in Japan). He strongly emphasised the qigong aspects, at least 2 hours of circle walking a day to build jing, and he showed the strength in his hands/body, but I don't think he had a very high opinion of iron body training (and he was very anti weights training). Azrael asked him how Master Ma developed his very strong hands and fingers, and the answer was a lot of standing/walking qigong and training in the palms/changes (note, no comments about bags of sand/cement walls).

We practiced one of the basic chin na's, a wrist lock and arm break/control. He showed how you should be able to put it on with three fingers only (first and second fingers, and thumb, all on pressure points), and how important it was to train the chi to enter the fingers to get power. We all experienced how quickly he could snap on the lock, and found out the hard way what could happen if you tried to use force to resist (he would give a quick change of force to direct it back towards you - leaving us on the ground in the practice situation). Kudos to Azrael who was more than happy to become the unfortunate guinea pig again and again. I found it interesting that he always used the initial wrist lock to 'coil' up the opponent's other joints - elbow, shoulder then their body/balance - thus the precise direction of continuing the lock (and also how he would keep the opponent moving so they were off-balance).

Master Ma is an old-fashioned teacher - he leads by demonstration and has no qualms about showing the applications well enough that you can really feel their effects. Also, the best way of getting him to demonstrate more was to prove you were "working hard" - hence the strenuous circle walking.

It doesn't sound like much but as I said earlier, it was an amazing opportunity to ask questions I have been pondering on for years, and get direct, intelligent answers about IMA.

Master Ma believes all the three core IMA's are a system that have to be trained together. He is, of course, a bagua teacher, but he is also strongly influenced by hsing-i. He also didn't seem to have any pretensions about which moves "belong" to which art - it is a system of movement and all of it comes from the root - qigong training and strengthening.

It was well worth the effort - Azrael is going for the rest of the week so I'm sure he will have a lot more to say about it all, but personally, I was impressed.

Kingsley wants to set up a regular group of like-minded bagua fans, meeting probably on Sunday mornings (note, Master Ma is holding another session on this Sunday - $100, contact Kingsley for more info). The object would be to set up a loose network of people to train/spar/learn/try new things, and have enough people to justify Master Ma and/or other highly regarded teachers to come over from once in a while to teach.

[Syd]

Sounds great Rich, glad you enjoyed it. ;)

[Shade]

Yes it sounds excellent :)

It will be interesting to hear back from Azrael as you say, and it will also be interesting to hear about these future sessions with Kingsley Fong too.

I am under the impression that in a couple of years or so (when I have been doing this for longer) I need to move the family down under.....you guys get not only the best weather but fantastic exposure to all these great teachers. :D

[Kat]

Nzric
Excellent, I am glad you gained alot and experienced alot.I think you can acknowledge the difference (no offence intended) between BGZ (JRJ) lineage as taught by Keith and that you where exposed to by Ma.
I am hoping that Kingsley will allow a regular session of BGZ practitioners of all styles for roushou etc which will only benefit everyone. Sounds like another convert to BaGua.:D

[Azrael]

Nice post nzric, you pretty much summed it up. I was really impressed with your skill level btw, you have a very natural way of moving. Keep it up. Damn I felt like a baby in that place! Was an awesome experience though, just as you said, and I did learn alot. Was good to have such a good group too.

Well, today we went through our palm changes for the first half of the day. There were only two of us, and the other gentleman who was training with me has alot more experience, so he did a bit more than I did. I decided to mainly focus on my downward plam for the day. Better to get that half decent, than 3 or 4 palms that are just crap. After a very nice session of yum cha kung fu, we got stuck into more chin na. We were taught a two person sequence this time. Needless to say, this was very impressive, and you could really see Master Ma's experience coming through. We spent the rest of the aftrenoon soaking this in, and also played around with it a bit, which was alot of fun. Looking forward to showing you guys at the park.

Anyway, pretty average summary compared to nzrics, but only one hand is working (hehe), and I am about due to hit the futon. My legs are killing me, and tomorrow is another big day! I'll keep you guys posted! Take care.

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by nzric


Once we got back, we waited for Ma to arrive. When he did he was laughing - a chinese reporter wanted to interview him for the Sydney newspaper but didn't believe in CHI energy and demanded Master Ma give a demonstration. Ma proceeded to give him a couple of light nerve strikes - instant paralysis which was temporary but put the message across.

Zounds like Empty Force or was it Dim Mak?
Did anyone ask Master Ma to prove it under scientifically controlled conditions ?
Would he consider doing these stunts in a circus and donating all proceeds to orphans. It'd be much better for his Karma.

Oh, could it be Master Ma is a Daoist too and avoids chi draining publicity like Master Bing too. After all he'd already wasted enuff shocking the reporter.

Yikes !

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by nzric


Once we got back, we waited for Ma to arrive. When he did he was laughing - a chinese reporter wanted to interview him for the Sydney newspaper but didn't believe in CHI energy and demanded Master Ma give a demonstration. Ma proceeded to give him a couple of light nerve strikes - instant paralysis which was temporary but put the message across.

Zounds like Empty Force or was it Dim Mak?
Did anyone ask Master Ma to prove it under scientifically controlled conditions ?
Would he consider doing these stunts in a circus and donating all proceeds to orphans. It'd be much better for his Karma.

Oh, could it be Master Ma is a Daoist too and avoids chi draining publicity like Master Bing too. After all he'd already wasted enuff shocking the reporter.

Yikes !

[nzric]

This is hilarious. Didn't I tell you he'd try to hijack other threads! Only took two hours and he's back (check the clock at the bottom of the post).

Just for your info, it was acupressure - nerve strikes, he told me himself when I went to another workshop this afternoon. Yep, that's covered in western medicine as well.

PJ - no-one wants to hear. Grab a soapbox and start your own thread if you've got something to say. Don't try to take over threads that have nothing to do with your pet project.

[Azrael]

Just for your info, it was acupressure - nerve strikes, he told me himself when I went to another workshop this afternoon. Yep, that's covered in western medicine as well.

I can confirm that. He actually used it on me on Thursday. My leg was cramping up at the knee to the point where I was really struggling, and he came over and hit several points, the last of which really hurt, and I was able to get straight back into it.

How was the afternoon session today, Nzric? Was so mad that I could not make it. Was my damn girlfriends fault!

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by nzric


Don't try to take over threads that have nothing to do with your pet project.

This is hilarious.
Isn't that what you tried to do with the Sifu Beng thread.....push your pet project : Park TaiChi ??

Then you posted 10 other messages challenging the validity of Empty Force because that was your pet project

Not good to dish it out if you can't take it mate.
:)

P.S.
I'm glad it wasn't Empty Force Master Ma used on the reporter.
We are not supposed to "show off" like that..... only to save ourselves , loved ones and and dear chi-less IMA friends we may have.

:D

[nzric]

Ah no...

We invited you down to the park because we saw you were a Sydney-based IMA person and since you have a very different perspective from us, it would be good to meet and learn in an open environment. It was a brief invite but you blew it into a big issue through your superior attitude towards other IMA people.

The validity of empty force has everything to do with your teacher because that is his main selling point.

NOW... Pandajelly, I'll put this simply. Forums were designed for talk about the subject topic. Threads can evolve but lately you have clearly been hijacking all the IMA threads to serve your own purpose (that is, your attitude towards empty force).

If you want to talk about empty force, make a forum named empty force and we can all go in and have a chat about it there. This particular thread is about a few workshops run by Grandmaster Ma. Show your respect to the forum owner, and us, by sticking to the subject at hand.

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by nzric

We invited you down to the park because we saw you were a

NOW... Pandajelly, I'll put this simply. Forums were designed for talk about the subject topic. Show your respect to the forum owner, and us, by sticking to the subject at hand.

This is hilarious.
Isn't that what you tried to do with the Sifu Beng thread.....push your pet project : Park Tai Chi ??

Then you posted 10 other messages ,disguised mocking , implied sneering at Empty Force ?
You and your cronies then TOOK OVER and monopolised a thread originally intended to discuss Master Bing's class availability.

Don't dish it out if you can't take it mate.
That, show some respect first if you expect respect from others.

[pandajelly]

And the reason why I'm in this thread now is because your Grandmaster Ma ( see Azrael's story), whom you speak so highly of, is telling you stuff that corroborates what Sifu Bing said about Daoist conserving Personal Energy,not saving orphans etc .

It completely invalidates your criticism of Sifu Bing.
It frustrates you because it proves your misguided judgment of Sifu Bing was wrong.

As long as I'm discussing Grandmaster Ma, I'm staying relevant and respecting the implied rules of this thread.So it is inappropriate of you to tell me to go away.

Look mate, I don't wish to rub anyone's face in it, but when I first heard about Daoist "apathy" I too was quite uncomfortable with it...like you, because I too like to help people,maybe not to your extent. But after hearing the reasons,I now understand.

Have you even considered that Grandmaster Ma and Sifu Beng will probably agree with each other more than you and me ?

[nzric]

What Master Ma teaches is not supernatural, so it's not what we were talking about before.

You need help.

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by nzric
What Master Ma teaches is not supernatural, so it's not what we were talking about before.

You need help.
Supernatural?
Who said anything about Supernatural and psychics ?
You said it, not I.
The Dao is The Way and refers to all things natural.

Seems not only are you doing Chi-less IMA, looks like it is Dao-less as well.

Studying a C-IMA without first studying the Dao is as good as just studying Shaolin.

Even Master Ma 's writings ( see his webpage on Jarek's site) talks EXTENSIVELY about developing Chi as an Energy.
In other Words, according to him, you are D.E.A.D WRONG about Chi being Hypnosis and BioMechanics.

You need vitamins.

[nzric]

As I've said before, I believe wholeheartedly about chi cultivation, meditation and energy work. I agree absolutely with using Taoist thought to enrich your IMA (as I've said many times).

The only thing you and I disagree about is that you can use chi power to zap your enemies from a distance. That's the rub. I have a lot of respect for teachers who teach chi cultivation work - that's not supernatural. Empty force is.

As I've said before (about the 'chi ball' meditation and qigong), if it works it works, who cares if it's in your mind.

[Azrael]

pandajelly: Please do not turn this thread into a debate about empty power and its related fields. Open a thread specifically related to empty power if you are wanting to discuss it. As Nzric said, please respect the purpose of this thread. If you wish to make a point using something that someone said here, simply quote & link on your empty power thread, and allow it to continue there.

[Azrael]

P.S Add a poll to it as well.

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Azrael
pandajelly: Please do not turn this thread into a debate about empty power and its related fields.

Not discussing Empty Power here.
Just pointing out that your respected GrandMaster Ma Chuan Xu said the same thing about Daoist conserving energy to the point of not saving others, exactly what my Empty Force teacher said.

nzric had ridiculed my teacher for that , so I was just re-dressing the situation here, an appropriate place since this thread is about Grandmster Ma.

Don't worry, if no one challenges this statement I just made, this will be the end of the matter.

But I will not let any slur on my teacher go uncorrected, just as you too would "protect" the reputation of your respective respectable teachers.

[Azrael]

Grandmaster Ma also said a number of other things regarding empty power, which I will not share here as it is not the place to do so. Like I said, start a thread specifically concerning empty power, and allow this debate to continue there. If I read the thread and feel it is a mature debate containing no ego based posts or sales pitches, then I will give you my thoughts on empty power (which for the record was never the main 'issue' on the Bing Zhao thread), as well as thoughts that Grandmaster Ma shared with us regarding this topic.

[Azrael]

But I will not let any slur on my teacher go uncorrected, just as you too would "protect" the reputation of your respective respectable teachers.

My teachers reputations speak for themselves, as do their capablilties. They do not require a humble begineer like me to either protect or defend them, as they are more than capable of doing this themselves.

Besides, I don't recall anybody 'specifically' sluring Bing Zhao in any direct way, simply people sharing an opinion to someone who was also, sharing his opinion.

But once again, this is not the place for this discussion.

[nzric]

PJ - I disagree strongly about your comments but here isn't the place to discuss it.

Feel free to open up a NEW thread - even cut and paste comments/statements from this one if you want to continue the conversation.

[pandajelly]

Then We must agree to disagree.

Yes there was slurring.
Just re-read the entire thread....especially the part of " not wanting to spare an afternoon" that might save orphans.
Maybe it wasn't intended as a , but it did come across as one.

Azrael, I note in some other thread you felt compelled to clarify some of the misinformation about your Iron Shirt teacher Yang Mian.
You were correcting some mispeceptions or " potential " criticisms and that is good thing ...
I'm only doing the same.

People had dropped in on the Empty Force thread and instead of discussing merits, sought to mock , test and ridicule.
Notice I don't do that to Yang Mian or Master Ma Chuan Xu?

Oh btw, we also have a guy who spent 1 year with Master Yang and spent the last 3 with Master Beng.
Master Beng doesn't dismiss Yang Mian, but describes it as similar in Dao concept as Empty Power, different in application.

[Azrael]

Maybe it wasn't intended as a , but it did come across as one.

In your position, I can see how it is possible that you percieve this. I too have read the entire thread, and I did not feel anybody was in any way directly slurring your teacher, but this is my perception. I can assure you that if anybody had said something that was an obvious slur, someone would have said something. I can assure you that we are not in league, nor conspire against you, pandajelly.

Azrael, I note in some other thread you felt compelled to clarify some of the misinformation about your Iron Shirt teacher Yang Mian.
You were correcting some mispeceptions or " potential " criticisms and that is good thing ...
I'm only doing the same.


Yes, but there is/was a difference of approach (and reasons), as was reflected in the type of comments I recieved back in those threads. You only need read through them to see the contrast.

People had dropped in on the Empty Force thread and instead of discussing merits, sought to mock , test and ridicule.

After calling various people chi-less, and generally discussing and commenting on various peoples capabilites (or in-abilities as it where), which I feel showed alot of dis-respect (and is where you lost me. It had nothing to do with empty power), I think you lost grounds for a mature debate. Anyway, there is a specific thread for that/this to take place. Do you need me to post thie link?

Master Beng doesn't dismiss Yang Mian, but describes it as similar in Dao concept as Empty Power, different in application.

Well, I have never meet your teacher or recieved a demonstration of his xingyi/bagua/daoist beliefs, so I am unable to comment. Maybe it is? Maybe not? Whatever works for the individual involved is what matters I guess. Feel free to visit my teacher at any time to draw your own conclusion, if that is something you desire. If not, happy training, and all the best to you.

If you want to ask me anything relating to what I have said above, please feel free to email (fightingspirit@optusnet.com.au) or pm me, rather than posting here.

[nzric]

PJ - I have started a thread named Empty Force - feel free to continue the discussion there.

If you have any more comments/questions directed at me, could you go to that thread. I'm not going to answer comments from you in this thread that aren't related to the subject topic.

[pandajelly]

Azrael & nzric,
You can exhale now.
My teacher chided me and me not to argue with you guys anymore,
because it is draining too much of my personal Chi and nullifies to my Qigong cultivation.
Too much struggle and effort.
I need to be more " selfish" and not try to share my treasure especially to those who are unable to recognise it's value.
Perhaps in due course.

If you receive some sort of enlightenment sometime in the future about the Dao and do wish to learn more about it from my teacher, you can email me or contact him . Other than that I won't be checking the forums anymore.

He said you guys are not the first or last to mock him even some of his oldest Dao-less IMA friends do that.
And you are right, he said I shouldn't bother having to defend him.
Even he won't defend himself against mockery or any non lethal attacks.

I guess it is natural to dismiss something when you don't have that something.
The irony is we aim to acquire the " nothingness of the Dao" .

Final note, do check up on who Yu Shwen Der ( spelling ?) is, you might be astonished to know how Master Bing is " connected" to him.

Peace to you all brothers.