Proof of Rank

[Jttuck]

Is there any way of telling someone's true rank? There are two dojos in my town, one of which claims to have a 10th dan as the head instructor and the other dojo has a 5th dan. Both dojos are listed on the warrior networks site and have ties to Dr Hatsumi. I have been warned that the gentleman with the 10th dan ranking may in fact not be at that ranking (more like 5th or sixth dan). How do you find out the truth?

[Kwajman]

Good queston, ask him for proof. Generally it takes someone else to verify it. Ask him who his instructors were, basically his lineage. If he keeps coming up with, out of the country, can't track him down, everyones dead, he's bs'ing you.

[Pacificshore]

Look up Hatsumi's BB tree if he has one

[Virtuous]

Here is a list of Bujinkan dojos and they're instructor's rank. Since John Wilson is a 13th dan in the bujinkan and resides in canada he may very well have promoted some people to tenth dan.
Michel Belisle, 10th Dan, Shidoshi.
Provincial Representative

This list may be out of date but I am sure the canadian bujinkan assosciation would be more than happy to veirfy a rank for you. (Thats why we pay our membership fees....) Now if they arent affiliated with the bujinkan Im not sure how to help you, other than contact their org headquarters and check their credintials.

[Andrew Green]

Proof of rank within a organization isn't hard, if they both claim to be members of the Bujinkan then you can verify that through the bujinkan.

If they aren't claiming affiliation they can claim whatever rank they want....

But rank says little about skill or teaching ability, and more about time in, having the right connections and politics.

Go see what they can do and how they can teach, the number is a bad way to choose a school.

[YODA]

13th Dan?

ROFLMAO!

[never]

What the hell does ROFLMAO mean??:confused:

[Virtuous]

Originally posted by YODA
13th Dan?

ROFLMAO!
appointed by hatsumi himself....

[johndoch]

Roll on floor laughing my ass off (or similiar)

[Saz]

Don't they have 15 Dan grades in Ninjitsu, whereas most styles have 10?

[Valiant84]

hey, i say what soes it matter. I dont even know what dan my instructor is, but that doesnt bother me. All i know and why i study under him was because he knows his stuff and is an exellent instructor. But whats the highest dan anyway?

[Virtuous]

There are 15 that I know of in the bujinkan
http://www.quest-l.com/collection/morerank.php

Here is a little article I found.
More on rank
References to Bujinkan 14th Degree Black Belts are a little out of place on the Quest-list service focusing on the SKH Quest Center program and people, but since the topic was brought up and many responded, I will suggest two views of Hatsumi Sensei's "10-plus" degree system.

On one hand, I have to agree with Mark who wrote:

let them laugh all they want...when you stop growing, you begin to die...why stop growing at tenth Dan?

I really appreciate and admire Hatsumi Sensei's sense of originality, sense of creativity, and - sure enough - sense of humor in creating a "more than 10" degree system. In many other martial systems, slavish restriction to "the way it was always done before" creates a dead system that relates only to some long-ago set of realities no longer really relevant.

Hatsumi Sensei is making an impressive statement in terms of seeing things in a different light by changing something as traditional as the 10-Dan ranking system that has been used unchanged for a hundred years by all martial arts across the boards from kendo to judo to karate to taekwondo, and even outside of the martial arts in disciplines such as go ("Japanese chess"). Anyone who has visited my Quest Center in Ohio can testify to the fact that "seeing things in a new light" and being brave enough to let go of out-moded ways and ready to adopt more effective and appropriate new ways is a highly crucial part of my commitment to serving my community and students in the best ways possible.

On the other hand, I have to acknowledge Ralph 's point, and give him a nod for having the courage to examine openly what some might refer to as "the emperor's new robes":

At the time of this message he has 15. Yes I feel other systems see this as a silly game someone is playing on us.

Behind closed doors inside the Bujinkan, it is fun to be startled by a raking system that is so radically different from every other one in the world. However, outside the Bujinkan dojo, the "more than 10" system can be difficult to justify to potential students. Some Bujinkan people with less than 20 years of experience now "outrank" judo founder Jigoro Kano and judo legend Kyuzo Mifune, every aikido master who ever lived, and shrine priests who have devoted their entire lives to kyudo spiritual archery.

(For reference, the first Festival in late 1981 was the first exposure Americans could have had to Hatsumi Sensei's taijutsu martial art. With one exception besides Rumiko and me, it is impossible for any American to have more than 20 years in the Bujinkan)

Notice that Ralph also writes carefully, "At the time of this message..."

What is in the future? Will Hatsumi Sensei again change and announce something new like a 17th Dan? I have heard people question Hatsumi Sensei's sense of creativity and sense of humor with the criticism that the "more than 10" is a way to keep on giving new diplomas to students who have moved through all 10 Degrees way too fast.

Whether or not I believe or support that criticism is of no importance. What is important is what the rest of the world perceives, IF we are operating in the world outside the Bujinkan. Could a system that creates a 28-year-old 12th Degree possibly drive away potential good students who feel that something "less than honorable" is going on?

My attitude is well summed up by some real good advice:

...If 18 dan ranks works for them, great... But if we don't like it, we don't have to train in it, look at it, think about it, etc. There's too much other stuff in life to spend mental energy on.

Personally, I have had to choose not to participate in Hatsumi Sensei's "beyond the 10th Dan" program. Because of my work in the bigger martial arts world, I regularly appear at functions and in publications with internationally recognized names like karate legends Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Fumio Demura, and Jhoon Rhee, and the top "no-holds-barred" jujutsu fighters who consistently establish their ranks and reputations in the ring in front of the entire world. If I were to be announced as a "14th Dan" or some such seemingly "impossible" rank so far above those other recognized greats in the martial arts world, I would be snickered or booed off the stage. Therefore, to have my message heard and believed, it is better for me not to push the rank issue.

If a person impresses you, it's not because of the number on his/her belt.

Indeed, that is really the "last word", isn't it? In traditional Japanese martial arts, a person with a 10th Dan is often referred to as a meijin - a "Legendary name" or "Person who has made a name for himself," where mei means "name" and jin is "person." I understand that this may be different in the Bujinkan, but traditionally, a 10th Dan is so impressive in all she or he has done, that even people outside the dojo know and respect that "living legend" by name and reputation. When asked about my own rank over the years, I have often commented that despite any impressive inflated numbers or titles that Hatsumi Sensei could give me to help me establish a reputation, my real rank ultimately has to be "Stephen K. Hayes."

- Stephen K. Hayes

[Jttuck]

The reason why I am asking is more about character than it is about skill. North America tends to place skill above character. The gentleman who claims to be a 10th dan may very well be skilled, even more so than my teachers (4th & 5th dan). Because of his rank he may draw more students. Talent will take you to the top, but character is the thing that will keep you there. If this guy is not a 10th dan like he is claiming than that goes to show a deficit in his character, and is someone I would be wary of learning under no matter how skilled he is.

[SilentNightfall]

Quick clarification for everyone here: Yes, Ninjutsu in the Bujinkan system has 15 Dan rankings. No, there is not yet a person who holds the rank of 15th Dan. Jack Hoban is 14th from New Jersey and my instructor, Ed Martin (Papa-san), was to receive the same grade but refused it (or so everyone has told me) and so he is 13th Dan. Hatsumi-sensei, himself, claims to be "zero," which is where everyone strives to truly be in Ninjutsu. But the reason for this would take much too long to explain. When training in the art you begin to see that the true number is zero that you are striving to become.

[xplasma]

If I remember correctly Bujinkan used to have 10 dans like everyone else. Where Hatsumi was 10th dan and his "second " was Tanemura at 8th dan. Sometime after Tanemura left to start Genbukan whih still has 10 dan level. Hatsumi added 5 more dans levels. I don't know why. But Yoda is right 13th dan sounds very funny.

[SilentNightfall]

Eh... Just a question, Plasma, but where did you hear that Hatsumi-sensei was ever a 10th Dan when Tanemura was 8th? I wasn't aware that Sensei ever had a ranking, especially after receiving the schools of Takamatsu-sensei and becoming the grandmaster of those 9 lineages. Just a simple question as I have never heard of Hatsumi-sensei holding a rank before. Any sources for this?

[xplasma]

That was the story I always hear. I hear it once from a Genbukan 5th dan, and then again from a sensei that was Bujinkan, then Genbukan, now has his own dojo. But If I remember there are like a billion varations of these stories.

In Genbukan 10th = grandmaster. So that might be the confusion

[Zamfoo]

i thought they really didn't use belts (cept to hold up pants) until arts went more worldwide. As to Jttuck's question other than asking there might be no way then again there are waaay to many things you could fake. Although a lie about rank smells Mcdojo to me.

[sshh]

I thought the bujinkan only had 10 dan grades, with 10th recently being divided into 5 sub-sections to give the judan's more stuff to work on and not to think that their training has ended.

Saying 11th dan, 13th dan, etc. is more bujinkan slang than an actual grade number.

Besides, even if there was 100 million dan grades, so what? The buj' is an independent organization and doesn't have to stay consistent with other martial arts. Other martial arts don't stay consistent with other martial arts. My aikido style maxes out at 5th dan. Some arts max out at 8th, and some have 10th dan reserved for the head master of the style.

I'm an academic (i.e. nerdy college student), so I like the following analogy.

Let's say MA 'X' and MA 'Y' have varying degrees of rank/grade, but both have 6th dan as the limit a student can attain. A 6th dan in MA 'X' is like having a PhD in mathematics. A 6th dan in MA 'Y' is like a PhD in literature. They are both called PhD's, but are they the same? Can someone look at the 'Y' 6th dan and remark at that person's skill in literature and then say, "well that 'X' 6th dan must be just as good at literature since he has the same degree" ?

Bottomline: it is ridiculous to try to compare the ranking structures of different arts, even if they use the same terminology (kyu, dan), and similar outward markings (colored belts).

Like I mentioned about the style of aikido that I practice, there are only 5 dan grades, and there are only 5 kyu levels. I truly believe that those 10 ranks are plenty to completely learn the art. The bujinkan is made up of 9 complete warrior systems. I don't think the 10 kyu ranks and 15 dan grades are enough for all there is to learn!

[oneninja]

Is ranking really important?I really believe that ranking is a western thing because us westerners have to have something to show for everything we do.the important thing is do you have the skills,alot of todays martial arts schools seem to have added ranks to systems so they can charge more money for each ranking test.The ranking system we know today has been around a considerably shorter time than the arts we study,therefor each of us should know what is our true ranking is,not by what belt we wear but by our true skills.

[Keikai]

I think Hatsumi moved the goal posts to 15th dan for the westeners, essentially he has said there are no menkyo for the separate schools but the shihan's are up there with him, so they have to add extra dan's so they don't have to have a master level, that's what i heard once, not too sure, don't shoot me for the info!

As for evidence, he should have all his certificates with hatsumi's stamp on it so ask to see them if your not sure.

[JohnnyX]

Hi,

15 Dans!

How long do they have to serve at their current Dan before being promoted to the next Dan Grade.

Cheers. :)

[Sonshu]

Its a shame but the grades in Buj are a bit of a joke. What is the difference between a 7th and a 12th dan.

The best Taijitsu people I have trained with (most capable of fighting) are about 3rd dan max. Its something that could do with reigning in a bit as it makes the rest of the MA world feel Taijitsu is a bit McDojo ish.

[Kwan Jang]

-I have a lot of respect for Hatsumi and as I understand it, he has set up the first five dans for recognition of physical skills, 6-10 for mental/strategic development, and 11-15 for spiritual growth. Bujikan is his to do with as he sees fit. OTOH, while I do respect him and see it as his perogative as he is soke of his system, I am reminded of the scene in the movie SPINAL TAP where the guy scratched out the number '10' on the amp and wrote in an '11' and expected everyone to be impressed that his amp was better since it went to eleven.
-I have a colleague who is currently a 10th dan under Hatsumi. What is funny is he was still a 5th dan when I got my fifth. In our MMA system, we originally just went up to 6th. Fourth was low master level w/ fifth being high. Sixth thru tenth were considered mostly as equivalent as one who had reached mastery,but gave back to the arts. So why bother. Then my instructors found that some people had a tendency after pushing themselves so hard and so far for decades, there was a tendency for some to slack off a bit, so they recently put in a seventh dan level to get some passion back into some of the people's training. Based on this, I can kind of see where Hatsumi is coming from; or at least in some ways the corner he painted himself into by awarding high rank rather quickly.

[JohnnyX]

Hi,

What ever happened to;

1st Dan after 3-5 years minimum.
2nd Dan after 2 years as 1st Dan minimum.
3rd Dan after 3 years as 2nd Dan minimum.
etc etc.

Somebody who is 15th Dan would have to be about 150 years old. :D

[Sonshu]

Money

Thats what happened!

[Deshi]

"To get X grade (dan/kyu) you will spend Y years working on it."

Anybody buying into this formula is experiencing faulty logic, insofar as you can't predict how long a given individuals development is going to take.

Specifically, calling Hatsumi's Dan grades from 5th and above a joke is also saying that you don't trust his purpose... since all those ranks, 5-15, are awarded by him alone. If you don't trust that, doesn't it make what else Hatsumi offers questionable in your eyes? And if you pick and choose what you will and won't accept from the head of 9 ryu-ha, then you're falling into the cafeteria-fu trap. Not that critical thinking can't be employed, we all must make the art our own, but without being ranked very high ourselves I think we run the risk of harming our development rather than helping ourselves.

[JohnnyX]

1st Dan after 3-5 years minimum.
2nd Dan after 2 years as 1st Dan minimum.
3rd Dan after 3 years as 2nd Dan minimum.
etc etc.


"To get X grade (dan/kyu) you will spend Y years working on it."

Anybody buying into this formula is experiencing faulty logic, insofar as you can't predict how long a given individuals development is going to take.



You can predict the minimum time between Dan Grades.

Everybody knows where they stand and there can be no misconceptions.

It also stops Dan Grades being awarded willy-nilly, so devaluing the honour.