Breakfalls

[7heTexanRebel]

Hi everybody.

I started Hapkido last week (I'm having a ton of fun!!) and we practice breakfalls at the beginning of class, and after doing them my head hurts.
Is this normal? Or is it just caused by bad form from a newbie?

[pauli]

how well hydrated are you?

[Hatamoto]

When I did aikido I told my sensei that I was getting a headache, he said it was most likely because I was too tense hitting the ground, and despite the breakfall I was still getting a lot of force through my body and up to my head. I won't say "try to relax" coz that defeats the point of relaxing, but as you gain confidence and relax more, if my sensei was right at least, then the headaches will go away.

[7heTexanRebel]

I'm pretty well hydrated. ("pissing clear")

[7heTexanRebel]

OK thanks! I am pretty nervous and tense when doing breakfalls.

[YouKnowWho]

OK thanks! I am pretty nervous and tense when doing breakfalls.
Doing some hand stance against the wall will be helpful mentally (hands on the ground and feet on the wall). If you are used to see the world upside down, you will be less nervious when you fall. Try not to let any part of your head to touch the ground when you fall. Try to use the triangle muscle behind your shoulder (the strongest part muscle on human body) to take the impact.

[Coges]

What part of your head is sore? It could be to do with tight neck muscles. I know when I first started breakfalling I had this for a while as it took my neck and upper back muscles a few weeks to get used to the falling. Something that some stretching and heat will go a long way towards fixing.

If it's actually your head that hurts from potentially hitting it on the mats then remember to always look at your belt when falling. This is the easiest way to avoid hitting your head on the ground. Btw, assuming back or side breakfall here. For front breakfall you don't want to look at your belt. That would be disastrous.

[Kraen]

Doing some hand stance against the wall will be helpful mentally (hands on the ground and feet on the wall). If you are used to see the world upside down, you will be less nervious when you fall. Try not to let any part of your head to touch the ground when you fall. Try to use the triangle muscle behind your shoulder (the strongest part muscle on human body) to take the impact.

Last I checked the tongue was the strongest muscle in the body and the gluteus maximus was the largest, so....?

-Kraen

[7heTexanRebel]

What part of your head is sore? It could be to do with tight neck muscles. I know when I first started breakfalling I had this for a while as it took my neck and upper back muscles a few weeks to get used to the falling. Something that some stretching and heat will go a long way towards fixing.

If it's actually your head that hurts from potentially hitting it on the mats then remember to always look at your belt when falling. This is the easiest way to avoid hitting your head on the ground. Btw, assuming back or side breakfall here. For front breakfall you don't want to look at your belt. That would be disastrous.

It's more like a head ache than a sore muscle. Thanks.

[7heTexanRebel]

Tongue is the strongest? I've never heard that. I always thought that, size to strength, the jaw was the strongest. And the gluteus maximus or the quadriceps were the strongest and largest.

[Kraen]

Tongue is the strongest? I've never heard that. I always thought that, size to strength, the jaw was the strongest. And the gluteus maximus or the quadriceps were the strongest and largest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle#The_.22strongest.22_human_muscle

Curse you 'fun facts.'

-Kraen

[7heTexanRebel]

Lol

[afhuss]

The longer the "lead" leg stays on the mat, the shorter the fall, the less shock the body takes. This is with either jumping breakfalls, vaulting rolls, side falls, etc. Doesn't really work with falls where both legs come off the mat though.

[Coges]

To make the back breakfall a little easier you also need to learn to pop when you jump backwards. What this essentially means is that you don't so much as jump up in the air and back but you pop your legs from under you and you rotate your back and legs like a see-saw (I'm really hoping this description makes sense). This makes the actual fall less but makes the breakfall look better as you seem to hang in mid air for a second before falling. It helps to have a little spring in your legs at the same time. This works similarly for the other breakfalls as well.

[klaasb]

YouTube- Jumping back fall

[afhuss]

YouTube- Jumping back fall (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag2M0K7jPmY)

Legs are coming too close to head...that damages the control of your body through the fall b/c the weight is to positive to the rear (almost past head). Try keeping legs extended about 45 degrees or so in relation to the mat....if you want, if not that's cool to. I always say, as long as your not damaging your neck or spine your fine.

[koyo]

From an aikido point of view there are no back or forward breakfalls only back TO THE SIDE or forward TO THE SIDE.

Below you can see some ukemi. If any of my attackers had attempted to fall directly backwards (rather than backward or forward to the side) they could have received serious injury.

[PASmith]

When I did Capoeira for a bit I used to get headaches from doing Macacos (not a breakfall but still a strenuous movement).
I think it's just down to whipping your head around and having stresses your body isn't used to. Compressing the back of the neck too (which I think is what I was doing as I whipped my head back to try and power through a move I couldn't really do).
Try making your breakfalls more considered and less in number. So they get better slowly without having a headache coming on. Hopefullu in time you'll get more used to it.

[afhuss]

From an aikido point of view there are no back or forward breakfalls only back TO THE SIDE or forward TO THE SIDE.

Below you can see some ukemi. If any of my attackers had attempted to fall directly backwards (rather than backward or forward to the side) they could have received serious injury.

Not appropriate for every style of aikido. We do about four kinds of backward break fall (not counting backward roll) and one or two forward break fall.

[koyo]

Just trying to keep the guy safe. below I am being thrown by Chiba shihan had I attempted to fall directly back I would have cracked my skull.

[YouKnowWho]

This is how I was thrown by my SC teacher. The break fall is a little bit different from the one used in Judo or Aikido.

http://johnswang.com/Chang_SC_22.wmv

[koyo]

Great fun isn't it.

[YouKnowWho]

Great fun isn't it.
That demo was done back in 1980. It was fun 30 years ago. Not sure the fun will remain the same today. :)

[afhuss]

oops, I meant to say not congruent to every style of aikido...nothing to do with appropriate or not, just noting that some teach these falls in their curriculum.

For us, we typically suggest that a that standing back fall (koho ukemi) is for mild technique projecting to the rear, step back breakfall (hikiashi koho ukemi) is for a more vigorous throw to rear and downish (this is more common), backward roll (koho kaiten ukemi or ushiro ukemi) and the jump back breakfall we don't do, but I've visited other dojo that did.

We teach a front fall ukemi...for testing its from two knees down (ryo kata hizatsuki). The only technique off the top of my head I can think this is for is ganseki otoshi (YouTube- Aikido Morihiro Saito sensei ganseki otoshi I know this is not the best quality video, but I can't find any other clips similar to the way we do ganseki otoshi)

[koyo]

Saito shihan often told us "The secret of aikido is in the TRIANGLES"
Since the art is executed from sankaku ho (triangular posture) the ukemi is naturally triangular" one hip or the other forward creating the manner in which we execute ukemi.

The aim of ukemi is to survive the throw and rise up immediately. Also at an advanced level ukemi may be used as a counter technique applied at the kuzushi.

Some of the ukemi from Saito shihan#s technique are spectacular whether you ment it or not. One time I was throwing my partner just as Saito shihan threw his and a collision was inevitable....when ,with a slight adjustement, saito shihan changed the direction of the throw with a slight movement of his hip and sent the guy flying off into the only space open on the mat. He rarely spoke English but surprised mt by saying "It's a king of magic."

Below with saito shihan. Second picture thankfully NOT me although I did experience such a throw and had no idea how I broke the fall.:)

[embra]

This is how I was thrown by my SC teacher. The break fall is a little bit different from the one used in Judo or Aikido.

http://johnswang.com/Chang_SC_22.wmv

That one at the end looks real tasty! The initial lock looks not unlike Aikido's Shihonage, but the projection looks like it is over the executor's back - not unlike Aikido's Koshinage (I cant say that K word without wincing.)

Presumably this is classical Shiao Jiao. In the TaiChiChuan (Cheng Tin HUng's Wu derivative) that I practise we have some throws like these (but not yet the latter one.) As throws are currently breakfalled onto wood, the momentum is somewhat limited compared to what happens in Aikido.

In doing so, I often get a grap onto the clothing of the executor, to dampen the throw, but not always. Once we get more mats, this may change.

As I am 51 in a few weeks, I have to do what I can to preserve my MA longevity as best I can. So any tips on breakfall technique into advancing years is welcome.

[koyo]

Become a teacher.:):cool:

Just for you:evil:

[embra]

Just for you:evil:

Yikes!
:eek:

As something of an aside from the main context of this thread, an interesting topic (for koyo's book maybe and/or a separate 'stand-up throws' under general MA maybe) i.e. taking in CMA like classical Shiao Jiao, TaiChiChuan, Baguazhang; JMA like Aikido, JuJitsu, Judo and others like Cacoy Canete's Doce Pares Eskrido (Eskrima with Aikdo like locking throws); a preentation and subsequent discussion on the principles of stand up throw techniques like Koshinage - which I consider to be relatively advanced.

[koyo]

Sounds interesting. I STILL don't know how to open threads but if you open one I shall contribute. Would like to see something from Smurf , You know who and co.

[JTMS]

Since you are pretty new to Hapkido I would recommend speaking to your physician about your physical ability to participate in such a strenuous program. I must admit Hapkido hurts. It is a strenuous martial art and the training involves a lot of hard work, pain and discomfort. I am not saying that Hapkido can’t be taught in a safe manner but there is an element of risk and it might be a good idea to talk with your family doctor if you are experiencing headaches. Having said that I would like to add that in the past few years that I have found nak bub (break falling) its self to be turning into a bit of a lost art. I have visited a few “Hapkido” schools that don’t teach it (pretty sad). If your Hapkido school teaches nak bub that is a good sign. :)

Good luck,
J.B. Murphy

[7heTexanRebel]

Since you are pretty new to Hapkido I would recommend speaking to your physician about your physical ability to participate in such a strenuous program. I must admit Hapkido hurts. It is a strenuous martial art and the training involves a lot of hard work, pain and discomfort. I am not saying that Hapkido can’t be taught in a safe manner but there is an element of risk and it might be a good idea to talk with your family doctor if you are experiencing headaches. Having said that I would like to add that in the past few years that I have found nak bub (break falling) its self to be turning into a bit of a lost art. I have visited a few “Hapkido” schools that don’t teach it (pretty sad). If your Hapkido school teaches nak bub that is a good sign. :)

Good luck,
J.B. Murphy
I wouldn't worry about talking to a physician, I played Rugby in high school and had no problems. =)

Thanks for everyone who's contributing.

I actually have a question, does one hold your breath or exhale whilst breakfalling?

[Kraen]

Exhale. Holding your breath will only lead to bad things.

-Kraen