Arnis Kali ....??????????

[Buddroux]

Has anyone heard of this art...

Please explain what it is ...

I think it has something to do with the Eskrima or something...

Arnis = Eskrima ... just different language?.

But i am not sure ...

[YODA]

Arnis / Kali / Eskrima

All names for the Filipino Martial Arts

Differences are more regional and political tahn in actual content.

[DeeTee]

Yoda's right.

As a gross generalisation, Arnis is a term used in the Luzon region of the Philippines, Eskrima is used in the Visayan region and Kali is used in the United States region!

[LabanB]

Just to add, you've also got the notion that:

Kali - is the Mother art of the Phillipines
Arnis - is the stick or empty hand art
Eskrima - is the blade art.

But as both Dave and Doug have said, these definitions are pretty loose.

Bill

[surgingshark]

and Kali is used in the United States region!

I thought it was used in the Mindanao Region...

[juramentado]

Originally posted by DeeTee Kali is used in the United States region!

Originally posted by surgingshark
I thought it was used in the Mindanao Region...

the topic of kali, escrima and arnis in describing FMA is a hot one. But I think it would be safe to say that the 3 terms are interchangable. I think the root word "ka" can be traced linguistically to most Philippine dialects. Even the Spanish era rebels, the KKK, used the "ka" symbol in their flags and insignia. This is a nice starting point for research into the roots of FMA.

you can use any of the terms. What's important is what's being taught. Everything else is just terminology

:)

[krys]

Kali - is the Mother art of the Phillipines
Arnis - is the stick or empty hand art
Eskrima - is the blade art.

:rolleyes:
it starts again......



I thought it was used in the Mindanao Region...

Never heard it there, my teachers and friends too..... and no they don't use it in Palawan, the Spratleys islands, the Batanes....

[shootodog]

Arnis / Kali / Eskrima

All names for the Filipino Martial Arts

Differences are more regional and political tahn in actual content.

yes. and silat in the southern island of mindanao

[shootodog]

Just to add, you've also got the notion that:

Kali - is the Mother art of the Phillipines
Arnis - is the stick or empty hand art
Eskrima - is the blade art.

But as both Dave and Doug have said, these definitions are pretty loose.

Bill


uh bill, kali/ escrima/ arnis may or may not have weapons, empty hands, or ground skills. kadena de mano is an escrima technique (or at least someone says it is) but is heavy on empty hands. so is mongoose (which isn't really classified in any category). kali may or may not be the mother art. my teacher, bro teach isla says that there are no writen proof that kali is the mother art.

the defining factor of fma is that...um, well...um, it has a certain...um...shet! hard to explain.

[dennisservaes]

uh bill, kali/ escrima/ arnis may or may not have weapons, empty hands, or ground skills. kadena de mano is an escrima technique (or at least someone says it is) but is heavy on empty hands. so is mongoose (which isn't really classified in any category). kali may or may not be the mother art. my teacher, bro teach isla says that there are no writen proof that kali is the mother art.

the defining factor of fma is that...um, well...um, it has a certain...um...shet! hard to explain.

http://www.dennisservaes.com/serrada_magazine.html is a URL to link to an article I wrote for Inside Kung Fu. My research indicates that in the Southern Philippines their arts were primarily Silat and if you asked them about Kali even if they knew what you meant since JKD has popularized the term Kali, they would still tell you they never knew of anyone that studied Kali. The term Kali came from the Villabrelle Escriama system which was practiced by JKD stylist Danny Inosanto. The mother art of all Escriama is Tjakalili, so Kali is not from Madjapahit but more Vissayan and is taken out of the name Tjakalili. The general term in the Vissayans is just Escrima, not kali or Tajakalili.

We are the choices we make! - unknown

[Bayani]

Yup! Here we go again :rolleyes:
No one can make claims about using Kali exclusively even your own article Dennis is copied from what Guro Dan has used is it not? If I am wrong then please correct me and direct me to your source so that I may be convinced of your claims. Where are your refferences to Tjakalele as being the mother art of Kali? What books ? Draeger being one if not the only one of them? Even today it's already common knowledge that some of his findings were innacurate.
Fact is FMA History is a muddeld mess of Hearsay and speculation because it was never an art intended for commerce but a fighting system handed down with oral traditions that lends to things being exagerated or innacuracies.

These topics have been debated over and over in this forum with a lot of educated readers so don't be surprised if your direct claims are questioned when making claims are asked to be backed up with facts and not hearsay or refferences from a book or article that amy or may not be acurate itself.

How can any one term be a mother art a country with thousands of islands and hundreds of dialects?

[Scotty Dog]

"The Word is not the thing"

J.Krishnamurti

[shootodog]

http://www.dennisservaes.com/serrada_magazine.html is a URL to link to an article I wrote for Inside Kung Fu. My research indicates that in the Southern Philippines their arts were primarily Silat and if you asked them about Kali even if they knew what you meant since JKD has popularized the term Kali, they would still tell you they never knew of anyone that studied Kali. The term Kali came from the Villabrelle Escriama system which was practiced by JKD stylist Danny Inosanto. The mother art of all Escriama is Tjakalili, so Kali is not from Madjapahit but more Vissayan and is taken out of the name Tjakalili. The general term in the Vissayans is just Escrima, not kali or Tajakalili.

We are the choices we make! - unknown

i have yet to see written proof of this claim that we were part of some vast indian- south east asian empire. the alibata/ baybaying scripts found on the islands do not resemble any sanskrit scripts, nor do we share words with the indian mainland. if we were part of such an empire, our architecture would look like bali. the philippines didn't have any of these (save the muslim architecture in the south) by the time the spanish came in the 1500s.

[dennisservaes]

Bayai you are right about the Filipino Martial Arts history was word of mouth and speculation, having not been recorded. But if you study the history, culture and archeology you can tie things together with artifacts and stories. I admit Danny's book was my first source, and in fact is one of the reasons I got interested in the Filipino Martial Arts. Reading about the old Escrimadore Masters was fascinating! That particular article of mine I mentioned originally had footnotes in the draft I presented to Dave Cater at Inside Kung Fu, but their magazine doesn't use footnotes otherwise that article would have them. So off of the top of my head I will make an effort to list them all here. The Filipino Martial Arts - Dan Inosanto, Two books by Vic Hurley and one being The 'Slash of the Kriss,' Some books by Don Draeger, Looking For The PreHispanic Filipino- William Henry Scott, Prehispanic Source Materials- William Henry Scott. Also, Remy Presas did had a book with a pink cover that had some history that I wanted to check into more. I rehashed some stuff from various martial arts magazines after first discussing it with people that had been around awhile, also volumes of library books and in particular one book by the Smithsonian Institute that was translated from Latin into English. It was most informative. It was recorded by priests that sailed in various voyages to the various lands to spread Chritianity in the name of the Pope. It led me to briefly search for more information and ask more questions. I met Malaysians and Filipino people at U.C. Davis, Sac State University and other places that were interested in my reseach and helped me. I also spoke with numerous Vissayan and Mindanao people, who are instructors of the FMA or specialize in kriss and other weapons from those regions and they agreed with my research. Some wondered if the term Kali was derived from the ancient term Tjakalili. Independently they said the same thing. They all said Silat not Kali was in the Southern Philippines. I realize some people want more evidence and unfortunately I don't think it exists. It is like asking, "which came first the chicken or the egg?" I believe the original rulers of both the Vissayan and Madjapahat Empires were both from the same family originally, and they were probably from Indian origin, but who is certain they didn't originate in the Vissayas or some other place and make contact with India and other places before establishing their empires where they were? The Madjapahats became agressive and had Monguls and Islamic tribes living among them, both of which were also very war like. The Vissayan Empire was once much larger but always under invasions and occupations of many people for thousands of years. The Madjapahat were primarily in Southern Philippines and Indonesia. Much of the Filipino martial arts resembles aspects of the Indonesian martial arts. The Papal Bull said Spain rather than Portugal would develop Christianity in the Philippines, but Spain and Portugal both had similar ships and weapons. Many of the Vissayan words for martial arts things have a Spanish word. Metalurgy existed in the Vissayas prior to both the Islamic and Portugese making contact with the Philippines, and remember the use of iron drastically changed warefare in Europe a couple centuries earlier to the exploits in the Philippines. So remember Tjakalili was a blade art and not just a stick art! The Vissayns have always had blades.

[dennisservaes]

i have yet to see written proof of this claim that we were part of some vast indian- south east asian empire. the alibata/ baybaying scripts found on the islands do not resemble any sanskrit scripts, nor do we share words with the indian mainland. if we were part of such an empire, our architecture would look like bali. the philippines didn't have any of these (save the muslim architecture in the south) by the time the spanish came in the 1500s.


I am no expert on baybaying script nor do I know much about Sanskrit. However, I do know that Guru is a term in India and Malaysia meaning teacher. And in the Philippines there is a word Guro which means teacher.
Perhaps these simularities are just a coincidence or maybe they arrived later. I can't argue about something I know nothing about.

[Bayani]

Been there done that my friend, Why do you think I no longer arue specifics when it comes to History or terms. It's the meat of what you are learning that I'm interested in. For your info Madjapahit was Hindu in religion defeated by the Sri-vijayans who were Muslim. Mindanao is populated by Islam and not Hinduism. Based on your findings they are a compilation of research with hearsay added to it very much what I too encountered so making direct claims that this came from what with certainty will lend itself to criticism but it's all good :Angel:
Your perception is your reality. Call it what you may , if it works for you then so be it. who cares what anyone else says.

[krys]

No, no, no you are all wrong.... I have another theory, the mother art practiced in all 7000 islands comes from central america and was originally practiced by the Mayas :) jk.

http://filipinokastila.tripod.com/spanmex.html (http://http://filipinokastila.tripod.com/spanmex.html)I am no expert on baybaying script nor do I know much about Sanskrit. However, I do know that Guru is a term in India and Malaysia meaning teacher. And in the Philippines there is a word Guro which means teacher.
Perhaps these simularities are just a coincidence or maybe they arrived later. I can't argue about something I know nothing about.

Many words from different cultures made their way into filipino, and there are not that many sanskri or indonesian words. Actually there are more words from chinese origin...
Have a look athttp://filipinokastila.tripod.com/spanmex.html (http://http://filipinokastila.tripod.com/spanmex.html)

Actually this made me curious and I found out the word palengke (market) comes from the Mayan language...Many of the sodliers used by Spaniards to invade and occupy the Philippines were from mexican descent, perhaps that's how this word came to the islands.. :)

[Bayani]

Here's a case in point where things could be mixed up and passed on incorrectly, I was mistaken and had it reversed here's the correction thanks to Diego Vega:

The Sri Vijayans were Hindu who were around from the 5th and 6th century. The Moslem Madjaphait empire existed in the 12th and 13th century. And Mindanao is actually about 70% Christian. But then again, this great Visayan invasion of Mindanao came after the Spanish and American occupation.

Thanks Diego.

[Pat OMalley]

One thing is certain though, Kali is a term very seldom used in the Philippines, America, well thats another story, The USA has a lot to answer for including the confusion of what the FMA is supposed to be called.

99% of the so called experts who claim that Kali is the Mother Arts are not Pilipino. The other 1% live in the good old US of A.

But then again watch any Hollywood film and you will see that the US is very good at re-wirting history in their favour.

The Enigma machine for instance, was never captured by the Americans like the film states, as a matter of fact it was captured by the British long before the US even enterd WWII, and oh, WWII started in 1939 not 1941.

The British, Australian's New Zealanders, Indian's and many other countries also fought the Japanese, as a matter of fact they were fighting them before the US came in to the action.

So when so called experts from the US claim this and that, I tend to listen then look for the real truth.

Can you also beleive I was on a flight to the Philippines in 2000 and watched a film that stated that it was the USA that invented TV back in 1926, funny that, that was the same year that the BBC broadcast their first TV program from Crystal Palace.

Oh I better stop now before I go on all day on this subject.

No offence meant guys.

Regards


Pat

[Crucible]

I think no one doubts that we had an influence from indianized empires, in words like guru or "rajah" lapu lapu, or in the example of the Maranao having a local variation of the 4th centurey Indian epic the Ramayana(the Maranao variation is called Darangan). However lets compare actual artifacts. We have scores of thousands of chinese porcelains, silks, coins, kitchen utensils, farm implements, cookware, pottery from the Tang, Sung, and Ming dynasties, but to my knowledge there have been only two Indian deity statues found in all the Philippines. Wouldn't it make sense that if the Philippines once housed a portition of a vast Hindu empire that we'd have more artifacts? Before the finding of the Laguna copperplate incscription(LCI) anthropologist Lanada Jocano maintaned that based on existing evidence any relations between the Sri Vijayan or Madjaphait empires and the Philippines was perepherial and probably limited to trade. With the LCI we may perhaps have our first real evidence of a Sri Vijian or Madjaphait pressence dating to the 9th century but the document relates only to the surounding areas of Manilla, so at this time we still have not enough evidence to state that the Philippines(not just manilla) was a part of Sri Vijaya and Majapahait.

BTW anybody know what Tajakalili actually looks like?

[Crucible]

No, no, no you are all wrong.... I have another theory, the mother art practiced in all 7000 islands comes from central america and was originally practiced by the Mayas :) jk.

http://filipinokastila.tripod.com/spanmex.html (http://http://filipinokastila.tripod.com/spanmex.html)


I think your link's dead Krys. Could you cut and paste it your article? Actually I think Don Diego has my favorite theory about the origin of FMA, maybe he could cut and paste it from pinoymma.com .

[Crucible]

[url]The mother art of all Escriama is Tjakalili, so Kali is not from Madjapahit but more Vissayan and is taken out of the name Tjakalili. The general term in the Vissayans is just Escrima, not kali or Tajakalili.

Just out of curiosity and my own ignorance, anyone know what the basis for this theory is, where it originated and who started it?

[Diego_Vega]

I think your link's dead Krys. Could you cut and paste it your article? Actually I think Don Diego has my favorite theory about the origin of FMA, maybe he could cut and paste it from pinoymma.com .

Okay. Ask and you shall receive....

I'm actually glad that we got this thread. I've been doing my own research into the origins of kali and I've been holding things back for the sake of political and nationalistic expediency. Well, the truth has to come out some time and now is as good as any other time so?. Kali, what we had thought of as the 'Filipino Martial Arts' was not invented in Spain, as alleged by that noted historian Vin Diesel. But was in fact invented in Canada. Yes, Canada.

It isn't as simple as going back a few hundred years in history to read about European colonization, in fact it goes back much further than that to the European colonization of North America 100,018 years ago, Tuesday morning. Basically it all starts with the Neanderthals. A group of Neanderthals from northern Europe was hunting sabre tooth hippopotamus when they suddenly found themselves trapped on an ice berg where the animals had hidden themselves. The ice-berg floated across the Atlantic and eventually wound up in Canada. In the months that it took to make it to Canada, the Neanderthals killed and ate the sabre tooth hippos as their food source. They also discovered that the sabre teeth were extremely handy as knives. Now the footwork for Neanderthal knife fighting is a bit different from todays methods in that they tended to be more circular, with the feet sliding rather than being picked up. They were on an iceberg! They didn't want to slip off into the freezing North Atlantic. Besides the Neanderthals didn't have any body fat like we do and they would sink to the bottom. (If they weren't eaten by sabre tooth trout first!) Also, it was more of a thrusting approach as they found that the rounded shape of the sabre tooth wasn't much good for slashing.

Once they arrived in Canada, they found a clean and orderly land of trees and water that was mostly uninhabited. But there were inhabitants there. Today's Canadians are not the descendents of the Neanderthals. In fact, there are no pure Neanderthals left in the world. What happened was what happened everywhere else in the world. The newcomers, mostly male Neanderthals, met and mated with the locals already in Canada, the Sasquatch (sometimes called Bigfoot, for whom the Canadian province of Saskwatchewan was named. Chewy from Star Wars was a sasquatch.). You can see this lineage back to the Neanderthal-Sasquatch hybrids (for brevity's sake, I'll just refer to them as Canadians from now on) in all modern Canadians with their flattened skulls, heavy brow ridges, excessive body hair and disproportionately large shoe sizes. Anybody who's ever been to Canada can tell you that there are only three places worth living in: the great lakes area (lots of fertile land, water and geographic proximity to the U.S).; the arctic (unlimited snow, and 24 hours of sunlight from June to August); and the west coast ( quality of life, relaxed and laid back.). These three areas produced distinctly different Neanderthal-Sasquatch hybrid martial arts. In the great lakes area, there is as much water as there is land. You can't swing a dead sabre-tooth monkey without splashing someone. Because of this they had to develop a fighting art that was at home in the water as it was on the land, hence the Canadians came up with what Vin Diesel referred to as an 'ambidextrous' fighting. For training they would play combat sports that would later be known as hockey and lacross. The arctic Canadians developed a much more blade oriented art as they used the sabre teeth from the sabre tooth whales and giant walruses they used as skis and on their sleds as their primary fighting weapon. The moves that you see today in free-style skiing were originally used by Arctic Canadians to kick and slash at their opponents with the sabre teeth tethered to their feet. Finally, the Canadians who settled on the west coast found a land full of giant trees. That's why there martial art evolved around the use of giant redwoods as staff. This would be like our modern version of tapado. Now the argument may arise, how come Canadians? Maybe the ancestors of modern day Americans were the inventers of kali, arnis and escrima. Well, I think you'll notice that the Americans are more into projectile weapons, rather than mano y mano weapons arts. Look at their martial games: baseball, football and basketball all revolved around the throwing and chasing after of little balls.

How did it get to the Philippines? This is where the Spanish come in and why the mistaken belief that the Spanish invented kali came from. Remember that the Spanish were here as part of the China, Philippines, Mexico galleon trade route. Five hundred years back, February, a group of Canadians obviously got fed up with the cold, lack of sunlight and bad records of Canadian based hockey teams and decided to take a winter vacation. Hence they smuggled onto a galleon and found themselves in the Philippines. You find many legends about the origins of various kali styles coming from blind princesses. Is it so inconceivable to see how a naïve and protected Filipina princess could go blind upon seeing a Neanderthal-Sasquatch hybrid for the first time. 'Arnis' is actually a corruption of the Canadian word 'fairness,' as in "we're Canadian eh, we got to do this with some fairness." A local asked how it was spelled, what was the first letter, and the Canadian, not sure of what he heard, said, "eh" Thus "arnis." Kali is a term used more commonly by Canadian illegal immigrants in California, which used to be part of Mexico.

BTW, biro lang ha! (Just kidding!)

[Crucible]

99% of the so called experts who claim that Kali is the Mother Arts are not Pilipino. The other 1% live in the good old US of A.

But then again watch any Hollywood film and you will see that the US is very good at re-wirting history in their favour.



Pat
Thats why I ran out and got the canadian opinion :D !
Okay. Ask and you shall receive....
:D , Thanks Diego!
Kali is a term used more commonly by Canadian illegal immigrants in California, which used to be part of Mexico.

I always thought Kali was a derivitive of Kali-fornia.....



BTW, biro lang ha! (Just kidding!)
:confused: you mean its not true!!?

[Bayani]

I'm actually glad that we got this thread. I've been doing my own research into the origins of kali and I've been holding things back for the sake of political and nationalistic expediency. Well, the truth has to come out some time and now is as good as any other time so?. Kali, what we had thought of as the 'Filipino Martial Arts' was not invented in Spain, as alleged by that noted historian Vin Diesel. But was in fact invented in Canada. Yes, Canada[I][U]


"noted Historian".. Classic! :D :D :D .

[Esgrimador]

"Kali" is not an historical term for FMA.

Mark Wiley pointed this out quite a while back, in his book, Filipino Martial Culture.

This has also been noted by Romy Macapagal, the archivist for the Kalis Ilustrisimo system, in this article at Realfighting.com:

About the term "Kali"

The word "kali" did not come about until about 20 years or so ago and seems to have been coined somewhere, sometime by Filipinos living in the USA. I have personally conducted a search for the word "kali" amongst old people of the major tribes and, except for "kalis" which means sword and "kali" in Ilocano, which means "a hole in the ground"; there is no other word or cognate of "kali".

Ilustrisimo used "kali" on the insistence of Mr. Leo Gaje who had visited with Tatang and also by an American anthropologist specializing in hoplology (which is a study of handheld, non-missile weapons), who seemed to have picked it up from Dan Inosanto's book. When I joined Tatang, "Kali Ilustrisimo" had been registered for about two or three years. Tony Diego (the present head of the Ilustrisimo system) and I, after the research mentioned, decided that "Kalis" is the more appropriate word because it means "sword" and would then mean the "Sword of Ilustrisimo." The name has not been formally registered except on a website but we had decided on this even when Tatang was still active and alive.

Also interesting is the fact that the alleged Spanish influence on FMA may be more profound than many practitioners think, at least in regards to particular FMA systems. Macapagal stated:

On the origins of Kalis Ilustrisimo

The Ilustrisimo system is very strongly influenced by Spanish cut-and-thrust fencing. It would be the closest to what is considered martial fencing in most of Europe but which is banned today. This is the main reason why the FMAs were variously called escrima, arnis, garrote, etc. The Spaniards occupied the Philippines for about 400 years.

The influence of Europe
Spain Christianized most of the Philippines and used the Macabebes from Pampanga and Cebuano's against other Muslims in Mindanao. Spaniards (and other European mercenaries) were cut and thrust soldiers, they used cutlasses (among other weapons); friars too were famous for their fencing skills. We Filipinos were greatly influenced by Spanish and European fencing styles, 40% of Illustrisimo is European derived.

The entire article can be found here:

http://www.realfighting.com/issue7/romyframe.html

Best Regards,

Esgrimador

[Bayani]

The key word is "Influence" and not originate or brought to the Philipines. The word Espada Y Daga itself meaning sword and dagger is Spanish but the moves and application are unique to FMA not common to weastern or European Fencing. As for Kali being spearheaded by Tuhon Leo Gaje, it is his view that if we as Filipinos are to go back into our indeginous roots and in this case the Filipino fighting arts then so should be the terminologies that through time has lost it's origin and Pilipino translations. Hard to find are the original terms of our art but this may fall to the loss or lack of writen History.

Why Kali? There were several logical reasons he mentioned , Ka is a very common pre-fix of our tagalog language and this to me seems the most logical and closest reason that I can relate to the use of kali as a blanket statement in my eyes. Personally I like to use Kali for it's relation to Kalis a type of blade hence the heavy concentration of relating everything I do in my Filipino Fighting art to the use or presence of the blade even in emtyhanded fighting. Back to Tuhon's preferrence to switching to Kali Instead of Arnis, Arnes, Arnis de Mano (Spanish) Eskrima , Esgrima...get his point?

Once again, not being a Historian, I look into the essence of the word that relates to the meat of what I am training, that is more than enough for me.

[Esgrimador]

The key word is "Influence" and not originate or brought to the Philipines. The word Espada Y Daga itself meaning sword and dagger is Spanish but the moves and application are unique to FMA not common to weastern or European Fencing.

Would you care to elaborate on the above?

Why Kali? There were several logical reasons he mentioned , Ka is a very common pre-fix of our tagalog language and this to me seems the most logical and closest reason that I can relate to the use of kali as a blanket statement in my eyes. Personally I like to use Kali for it's relation to Kalis a type of blade hence the heavy concentration of relating everything I do in my Filipino Fighting art to the use or presence of the blade even in emtyhanded fighting. Back to Tuhon's preferrence to switching to Kali Instead of Arnis, Arnes, Arnis de Mano (Spanish) Eskrima , Esgrima...get his point?

Considering that the arts we refer to as eskrima, arnis, etc., went through a great deal of development during the Spanish occupation of 1565-1898, what's so wrong with keeping the original combination of native and Spanish-derived terms that were apparently coined by the old eskrimadors themselves?

[Bayani]

I would love to but we're limited here in cyber space. ONE of the differences is the weaving sinawali pattern using the Espada y Daga.....nuff said. I fence on the side and have met with European fencers and exchanged info on this and we agreed the use of sinawali with espada y daga is a difference. There are also some take downs and empty hands locks that use the "Uno-dos" (heheh for my SME brothers in the art )

As for terminologies? to each his own. Nothing wrong with sticking to Arnis or eskrima, whatever works for you. Being Pilipino and one who enjoys finding indigenous links and once again in my case the link for me being the blade and using kalis and one of my instructors being Leo Gaje then Kali it is for me. The other systems I teach also mostly use spanish terminologies and if It comes from that system and I am teaching it , then that is the term I will pass on in spanish with the "Bisaya" accent and all .

[Esgrimador]

I would love to but we're limited here in cyber space. ONE of the differences is the weaving sinawali pattern using the Espada y Daga.....nuff said. I fence on the side and have met with European fencers and exchanged info on this and we agreed the use of sinawali with espada y daga is a difference.

I would concur that sinawalli doesn't look like anything from Europe that I'm personally familiar with, but who are these "European fencers" you speak of? Are they familiar with historical swordfighting methods--i.e., 16th century styles, like that of Achille Marozzo? I mention Marozzo simply because there are no surviving Spanish treatises on military cut-and-thrust swordplay from the 16th century. However, Marozzo's Bolognese school, which had both civilian and military application, was probably similar to contemporary Spanish styles. I would even venture that the Bolognese school's spada e pugnale (sword-and-dagger) was likely pretty close to what was being done in Spain at that same time.

And FWIW, while there are obviously differences, there are also noteworthy similarities between FMA and Western swordplay (for example, the redonda and umbrella/rooftop block, both of which have parallels in historical European systems). This could be either the result of parallel evolution, or a Spanish influence, as mentioned by Macapagal and others. Blade cultures that come into contact with one another often exchange ideas. For example, the Ming Chinese incorporated Japanese kenjutsu techniques into their own swordplay, during the 16th century. Over in Europe, the Italians adopted the German two-handed sword or zweihander (which they referred to as the spada da due mani or spadone), and in turn, the Germans adopted the Italian single-handed cut-and-thrust sword (spada), and called it the rappier or rappir.

So, in other words, the possibility of a distinct Spanish influence on FMA shouldn't really come as a surprise.

As for terminologies? to each his own. Nothing wrong with sticking to Arnis or eskrima, whatever works for you. Being Pilipino and one who enjoys finding indigenous links and once again in my case the link for me being the blade and using kalis and one of my instructors being Leo Gaje then Kali it is for me. The other systems I teach also mostly use spanish terminologies and if It comes from that system and I am teaching it , then that is the term I will pass on in spanish with the "Bisaya" accent and all .

Fair enough. :)

[Bayani]

I'm a FMA practitioner and not a fencer but I will ask these men about the names you mentioned when I get a chance to see them again. They are not instructors but have been fencers for quite some time and are quite adept. And like we agree , sinawali is not common to fencing, . I fence to understand what I do better and to keep my form true. So much to do and so little time to do it so I spend most of it trying to perfect one thing.
Ditto on the similarities and differences and everyone borrowing from each other. The Philippines is a major trade route. Nice to see there are otehr all over who have the same love for weaponry and combative arts :)

[Esgrimador]

I'm a FMA practitioner and not a fencer but I will ask these men about the names you mentioned when I get a chance to see them again.

Thanks. I'm simply curious as to whether the folks in question train in modern sport fencing, historical fencing, or a combination of the two.

They are not instructors but have been fencers for quite some time and are quite adept. And like we agree , sinawali is not common to fencing, .

Definitely in agreement there.

I fence to understand what I do better and to keep my form true. So much to do and so little time to do it so I spend most of it trying to perfect one thing.

I totally sympathize, bro.


Ditto on the similarities and differences and everyone borrowing from each other. The Philippines is a major trade route.

Indeed.

And I would have to say that the Philippines is one of the most fascinating places in the history of fighting arts in general--it was/is a true "martial arts crossroads".

Nice to see there are otehr all over who have the same love for weaponry and combative arts :)

The feeling is mutual! :)

[shootodog]

I would concur that sinawalli doesn't look like anything from Europe that I'm personally familiar with, but who are these "European fencers" you speak of? Are they familiar with historical swordfighting methods--i.e., 16th century styles, like that of Achille Marozzo? I mention Marozzo simply because there are no surviving Spanish treatises on military cut-and-thrust swordplay from the 16th century. However, Marozzo's Bolognese school, which had both civilian and military application, was probably similar to contemporary Spanish styles. I would even venture that the Bolognese school's spada e pugnale (sword-and-dagger) was likely pretty close to what was being done in Spain at that same time.

And FWIW, while there are obviously differences, there are also noteworthy similarities between FMA and Western swordplay (for example, the redonda and umbrella/rooftop block, both of which have parallels in historical European systems). This could be either the result of parallel evolution, or a Spanish influence, as mentioned by Macapagal and others. Blade cultures that come into contact with one another often exchange ideas. For example, the Ming Chinese incorporated Japanese kenjutsu techniques into their own swordplay, during the 16th century. Over in Europe, the Italians adopted the German two-handed sword or zweihander (which they referred to as the spada da due mani or spadone), and in turn, the Germans adopted the Italian single-handed cut-and-thrust sword (spada), and called it the rappier or rappir.

So, in other words, the possibility of a distinct Spanish influence on FMA shouldn't really come as a surprise.



yes. i am familiar with the medieval and renessance fencing and the schools that taught them. there are no equivalents to the siniwali.

if there are similarities in movements, at frozen frames, maybe that's because the human body is limited in it's movements. one thing is certain arnis/escrima/kali developes a certain type of mind set, it developes "flow", it developes overkill (as tatang often says and is repeated by mang romy: "basta makataga! tapos taga ka lang ng taga" translated: "for as long as you can slash. and keep on slashing").

[Esgrimador]

Hi Shootodog,

yes. i am familiar with the medieval and renessance fencing and the schools that taught them.

Do you have a particular focus, in regards to the historical European arts? Spanish? Italian? German?

there are no equivalents to the siniwali.

Indeed, I think we have established that. :)

if there are similarities in movements, at frozen frames, maybe that's because the human body is limited in it's movements.

Actually, there are similarities which go beyond "frozen frames", and that could be due to the "parallel evolution" I mentioned (or, as you put it, "the human body is limited in it's movements").

On the other hand, those similarities could be reflective of a distinct outside influence.

Significantly, in at least certain specific FMA styles, a distinct Spanish influence is noted. Romy Macapagal states that a full "40% of Illustrisimo is European derived"--and that's not a negligible percentage.

And as I mentioned above, Mr. Macapagal is not the only FMA practitioner to note the Spanish influence. The following site has two excellent articles--"The Origins of Eskrima" by Dr. Ned Nepangue, and "New Theories on the Origins of Eskrima" by Celestino Macachor:

http://cebueskrima.s5.com/custom2.html

Check those essays out.

Now, one thing I want to make clear--I'm am NOT saying that FMA comes from Spain. I agree with what Nepangue said:

"It [FMA] is basically a product of Filipino creativity and no doubt whatsoever, it is very Filipino."

However, I'm still willing to acknowledge a Spanish influence (and "influence" is the "key word", as Bayani said).

Best Regards,

Esgrimador

[Crucible]

Significantly, in at least certain specific FMA styles, a distinct Spanish influence is noted. Romy Macapagal states that a full "40% of Illustrisimo is European derived"--and that's not a negligible percentage.

Yes it does seem to be distinct in Ilustrismo, anybody know what are other specific FMA styles in which a distinct Spanish influence is noted?


Esgrimador, have you experianced/observed Ilustrisimo? What are your thoughts on it?


Best Regards,

EsgrimadorTsiao! :D (tagalog spelling of Ciao!)

[krys]

Yes it does seem to be distinct in Ilustrismo, anybody know what are other specific FMA styles in which a distinct Spanish influence is noted?

Cinco Terros arnis, at least the cinco style I practice. The main fighting stance is clearly fencing looking.

[Crucible]

Krys, where in the Philippines does your cinco teros come from? Would you be willing to share what the five angles in your form of cinco teros are? Have you seen other cinco teros?

[Pat OMalley]

Okay. Ask and you shall receive....

I'm actually glad that we got this thread. I've been doing my own research into the origins of kali and I've been holding things back for the sake of political and nationalistic expediency. Well, the truth has to come out some time and now is as good as any other time so?. Kali, what we had thought of as the 'Filipino Martial Arts' was not invented in Spain, as alleged by that noted historian Vin Diesel. But was in fact invented in Canada. Yes, Canada.
Hehehehe.

You forgot to mention that the Neanderthal's were in fact from the Danino Tribe and they had settle in Ontario which at this time in history was more commonly known as the Village of Santo.

[shootodog]

Hehehehe.

You forgot to mention that the Neanderthal's were in fact from the Danino Tribe and they had settle in Ontario which at this time in history was more commonly known as the Village of Santo.

i don't get it danino village of santo? danino...ah :bang: :bang: :bang:

hahahaha!

[Pat OMalley]

Ah, you see, a lttle thought goes a long way:D

And did you know that the Danino tribe used to worship the Godess Kali (The godess of Destruction) which is who they named their martia arts after.

This maybe closer to the truth of were the name Kali was originally taken from.

200 years later the Danino people moved to what is now called Kalifornia (as it was spelt then) and settled in an area known to them as Sticktown which in more modern times was misinterpreted and later named Stokton which even today is known by the Danino people from Santo as the new home of Kali, which many up until Vin Diesel's research was mistaken taken for the Filipino Martial Arts.

On a dark moonlit night you can still hear the Anceint Danino people practicing their Kali in secret by following the ancient sound of the clacking of the Sabre Teeth from the Sabre Tooth Hippopotemus's which of course they still feast on in their secret cerimonies. Although many still think the the Ma people from Eskri and the Arn People from Is are decentdents of the Danino people but this has very little basis of truth after the great Scientist Dr Robert DeNiro found no genetic traces of Danino DNA in either the Eskri or Arn people.

Deeper research is still being made to find out the truth.


regards


Pat

[shootodog]

Ah, you see, a lttle thought goes a long way:D

And did you know that the Danino tribe used to worship the Godess Kali (The godess of Destruction) which is who they named their martia arts after.

This maybe closer to the truth of were the name Kali was originally taken from.

200 years later the Danino people moved to what is now called Kalifornia (as it was spelt then) and settled in an area known to them as Sticktown which in more modern times was misinterpreted and later named Stokton which even today is known by the Danino people from Santo as the new home of Kali, which many up until Vin Diesel's research was mistaken taken for the Filipino Martial Arts.

On a dark moonlit night you can still hear the Anceint Danino people practicing their Kali in secret by following the ancient sound of the clacking of the Sabre Teeth from the Sabre Tooth Hippopotemus's which of course they still feast on in their secret cerimonies. Although many still think the the Ma people from Eskri and the Arn People from Is are decentdents of the Danino people but this has very little basis of truth after the great Scientist Dr Robert DeNiro found no genetic traces of Danino DNA in either the Eskri or Arn people.

Deeper research is still being made to find out the truth.


regards


Pat

this is getting better all the time! ever thought of writing mark wiley to correct his book?

[Pat OMalley]

this is getting better all the time! ever thought of writing mark wiley to correct his book?
You know that's not a bad idea:D

I reckon that if we put our heads together and published a book like this, then promoted it in the USA, a lot of people may well beleive what is said in the book. What a fun way to make some money:D

Regards

Pat

[dennisservaes]

This thread was made into Please read the Terms of Service. Using the * Key doesn't make it all right . Congratulations.

[Diego_Vega]

This thread was made into Please read the Terms of Service. Using the * Key doesn't make it all right .. Congratulations.

Okay, allow me to apologize for my part . It was only meant as a joke.

But honestly, there aren't any good books on the origins of the FMA. If you're serious about studying FMA in the context of Pre-Hispanic Philipine history, then you should study the general history of that time period and not just any tenuous connection to what might have been the roots of FMA. And if you want to study pre-Hispanic Philippine society, the names you should be reading are F. Landa Jocano and William Henry Scott, not (with all due respect) Dan Inosanto, Mark Wiley or even Romy Macapagal.

[Esgrimador]

Okay, allow me to apologize for my part . It was only meant as a joke.

But honestly, there aren't any good books on the origins of the FMA. If you're serious about studying FMA in the context of Pre-Hispanic Philipine history, then you should study the general history of that time period and not just any tenuous connection to what might have been the roots of FMA. And if you want to study pre-Hispanic Philippine society, the names you should be reading are F. Landa Jocano and William Henry Scott, not (with all due respect) Dan Inosanto, Mark Wiley or even Romy Macapagal.

I think we're all familiar with Jocano and Scott (and FWIW, both are used as sources by Wiley).

[Diego_Vega]

I think we're all familiar with Jocano and Scott (and FWIW, both are used as sources by Wiley).

Really, then let me add another name, Laura Lee Junker. I saw Scott mentioned in passing, but didn't see any footnotes for Jocano.

[shootodog]

This thread was made into Please read the Terms of Service. Using the * Key doesn't make it all right . Congratulations.

fma'ers are known for two things. gameness and a sense of humor. when one lacks the other, it usually is very sad. back in the old days, in this country many were killed for having a serious lack of the former.

[Pat OMalley]

This thread was made into Please read the Terms of Service. Using the * Key doesn't make it all right . Congratulations.
Oh Dear. you take things so seriously some times, As mentioned before most good FMAers' tend to have a sense of humour and in essance we are only laughing at ourselves here.

If you cant laugh at yoursdelf, then you have no right to laugh at others. And when you have been hit on the head with Rattan as many times as me (many by myself I might add) you have too look at the funny side.

I suggest you go out and get yourself a sense of humour, it may well improve you FMA.:D

Regards

Pat

[Diego_Vega]

I don't have a sense of humour.

Okay back to reality.

Martial arts are said to be a reflection of the culture that produced them. When you have groups of Filipinos together, each of whom is holding a weapon, and nobody is joking around and people aren't laughing, then there is definitely something to be worried about. :(

[shootodog]

I don't have a sense of humour.



<runs for his life>


Martial arts are said to be a reflection of the culture that produced them. When you have groups of Filipinos together, each of whom is holding a weapon, and nobody is joking around and people aren't laughing, then there is definitely something to be worried about. :(

oh yeah. that is so true.

[Pat OMalley]

I don't have a sense of humour.
<Hides behind Shootdog>

Martial arts are said to be a reflection of the culture that produced them. When you have groups of Filipinos together, each of whom is holding a weapon, and nobody is joking around and people aren't laughing, then there is definitely something to be worried about. :(
You can say that again. 1992 at the WEKAF world Championships in Manila springs to mind and a very angry Chris Ricketts and his group:eek:

But I'm still here:Angel:

regards

Pat

[Bayani]

Talk about a most embarrassing moment for FMA!!! Now that I think about it did it not involve someone from UK? We as a people appologise again :o

[shootodog]

You can say that again. 1992 at the WEKAF world Championships in Manila springs to mind and a very angry Chris Ricketts and his group:eek:

But I'm still here:Angel:

regards

Pat

that was you that master topher rickets got angry with? man that story has been going around in manila since then!

[dennisservaes]

fma'ers are known for two things. gameness and a sense of humor. .

Nothing wrong with Humor, but sometimes we make jokes out of things that need discussed. Here in the U.S. some of the best FMA teachers don't run their schools like a business or as well as they could be doing, like the Koreans and Japanese styles do. So what happens? FMA stays as an add on art or in the ghetto out of someone's garage or backyard, or if they get lucky enough they teach at someone else's Japanese or Korean school (maybe the owner bought his black belt from some guy that never got into a fight in his life except against the class weaklings in High School. Now that he is an expert at Karate he wants to learn FMA for free. It's their school and you are just there 'cause they let you be. They will sell Karate for $50 per student per month or whatever and if the student says he wants to learn FMA but only has $50 per month he will tell him sticks will come later or children shouldn't be taught sticks and weapons. That he doesn't encourage that sort of thing. But if the FMA instructor was to speak against the Karate he would be out of there quick. One day you show up to teach your 13 students and there are 60 kids in Karate Uniforms already training in your matt area and the owner of the school says he "had to make a change in scheduling of classes," and the students look at you like why are you here being so disrespectful to my instructor!

Some things you either get it or you don't and explaining things doesn't change anything until it is time for a change. Well, is it time to bring FMA to the prominence it deserves?

They have Karate coffee mugs, Karate Jackets, Karate gi bag, Karate Shoes, Karate Calendars, Karate After Shave, Karate cartoons, Karate Magazines, Karate action heroes and it doesn't stop. Contrast that to FMA- we'll get an article out eventually to Black Belt Magazine that will get people involved.


You won't hear nothing about Karate originally was from Canada maybe Mars or God or an Angel but probably not Canada. That's just not funny!

Train hard and have fun!
Guro Dennis Servaes

[shootodog]

You won't hear nothing about Karate originally was from Canada maybe Mars or God or an Angel but probably not Canada. That's just not funny!

it isn't?

[Pat OMalley]

Talk about a most embarrassing moment for FMA!!! Now that I think about it did it not involve someone from UK? We as a people appologise again :o
Don't appologise, looking back on it now, it always brings a chuckle to me old heart, and like anything in competitions, things get said and people do things in the heat of the moment that they don't realy mean. I too could be guilty of such acts in the past.

It's all part of competing and training for such events.

I have had shoving matches with GM Dionisio Canete in the middle of a world championships because we have disagreed over something stupid and people have run for the hills thinking we would come to blows, what they did not see is the next day I would be sharing breakfast with him at his dinner table and we would be laughing about it. You got to love the Filipino sense of humour:D .

Reagrds

Pat

[Pat OMalley]

that was you that master topher rickets got angry with? man that story has been going around in manila since then!Hehehe, yeah, all over an abaniko strike too.:)

You will have to tell me the story that is still going round Manila and I can tell you how seen it from my side of the head protector.:)

Many Americans run to the hills that day, I can tell you:o Many Brit's too I may add:mad: Only me John Harvey (UK), Vince Palumbo (Australia) and GM Navales (Bacolod City, P.I.) and his group left standing in a group in the corner of the stadium opposite Master Ricketts and his group:eek: :D :cool:

Memories, you gotta love em.

regards

Pat

[Pat OMalley]

You won't hear nothing about Karate originally was from Canada maybe Mars or God or an Angel but probably not Canada. That's just not funny!

Train hard and have fun!
Guro Dennis Servaes
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

But of course it's not, Canada eh!, we all know Karate comes from Belgium:eek:

[Bayani]

I think our new friend Dennis here does not know how things are viewed in this forum. First of all most of us know each other here in cyber space and have a friendship going hence our propensity to make light while sharing interesting points of view and yes Dennis, It was quite a funny story so lighten up. :D I mean can;t you see how the famed historian Vin Diesel? C'mon that's funny! it's sarcasm or maybe the same as Tommy Lee Jones in the Hunted interview saying that the system Sayoc Kali is based on the fighting arts from Malaysia. As you can see these men misquoted or put in their own interpretation of the info...hmmmm wonder if there's any relation to misquoted claims like Kali is the mother art or from Tjakalili or Kali is from the Danno tribe....get my point?


We understand your passion to promote your beloved system and art....we all are passionate about "our" art and try to have mutual respect for each other's unique systems so making finite claims as to the origins or claims of which can't be proven will be questioned as stated before, we're all passionate about the FMA and you may be preaching to the same choir and this choir my friend is also very well learned in the History of our beloved arts. People have gotten away with making claims or telling stories in the old days but today with the use of the web people are better informed and can verify anything or research deeper into history .

I understand your eagerness to share but also know that with honey you'll attract more bees and bears :eek: what the heck am I saying . I mean , I too was so zealous in my ways and only pushed people away from my art because I sounded like I had all the answers and my way was the only way...this is cyber space and we can't prove much in the ways of skill but only words so let's sound friendly and have the willingess to agree and agree to disagree.
FMA's time has come. But I also don't understand your wanting it's prominence in comparrison to karate? I could not even stomach the thought of my beloved FMA in a mcdojo commercialized teachings especially to kids.
it was an art passed on to family systems, maybe taught in backyards ....so what?! The best ways to learn were done that way. No commercialized belt systems for commerce or testings or uniforms, just a teacher passing on ancestral arts to his student. How much more soulfull passing on of an art do you want? Those who have learned the art can feel the pride knowing they have learned it for themselves, Not for others to know that you know it. I think that's a little superficial don't you? Unless of course you are trying to make a living out of teaching FMA...then that's a whole different story becasue now you have to follow the rules of buisness and commerce and that 's what mcdojo's are about. but you may ease up and know this....

In the 60's it was karate, in the 70's with Bruce Lee it was Kung fu, the 80's you had Tae Kwon Do and Kickboxing, and into the 90's with aikido segal's way the 90's was gracie jujutsu, shooto and muay thai interms of popularity and demand. Since 9-11 the reality of what weapons can do has brought about a rethingking of MArtial and combative arts. Guess who's turn it is?

peace out bro, welcome to the FMA forum :)

[Pat OMalley]

Well said Bayani, Your words are as ever enlightning:D


If only more people knew just how much the Filipino's laugh when they are teaching and training, and as a matter of fact just how much they laugh in life then maybe more and more would begin to understand not just the art but the culture that has given birth to this wonderful art and why.

The Philippines is not known as the island of smiles for nothing:)

As the old saying goes "Laugh and the whole world laugh's with you":D

regards

Pat

[Diego_Vega]

I thought karate came from Okinawa?

[Pat OMalley]

Nope, According to Karate's world champion the late Hollywood based historian and founder of historical films, the great O Sensie Jean Cluade Van Dam I am definitely sure he said it was from Belgium and he states "It was for many hundereds of years hidden in the secret dance form known to many as Ballet" "I have made it my life's work to show the general public the true meaning of Karate via the Hollywood film industry";)

[Pat OMalley]

He is now in the process of developing a new hybrid style combining FMA with Karate, this new style will from now on be known as Karanis, with it's sub division's Shotokali and eskrimakido.;)

[shootodog]

dakilang bayani! (great bayani!). well said bro! well said!

karate didn't start in okinawa! it started in japan when k-1.... :bang:

speaking of hybrid systems, there have been many filipinos who have developed hybrids with arnis/ escrima/ kali as the base to attract the karate/ tkd/ aikido set on the islands. first there was escrido, then there was arnis vee jitsu, then there was yaw- yan (which adpoted and created many kicks that were not found in the old kicking systems), and many many more. i remember a guy who asked if i wanted to learn his system which was a mix of arnis, judo, and boxing. he seemed like a nice well meaning guy.

as for the art being learned in backyards, in secret, in the cover of darkness, and without proper belting systems? that's the way it's been done for centuries. happy are those who learn in an organised manner with ranks and things! but here in this poor country, that hardly matters.

[Diego_Vega]

I was gonna write something serious, but you guys got me distracted ... (ballet? Isn't that Russian MA? Systema?)

Will write something serious later. Maybe much later. Supertyphoon is about to hit us here and I have to get back to reality quickly. Hope to continue later.

[krys]

(ballet? Isn't that Russian MA? Systema?)

Seriously the cossack dances performed at the Bolchoi have their origin in martial arts.

I' watched spetsnaz troops perform workouts under a cossack dance master (see bearded short guy in the middle photo http://martial-arts-network.com/qa16.htm) , these were among the best exercises I've seen (complete warm up and stretch of the whole body done in less than 10") and martial applications were evident.

[Pat OMalley]

I was gonna write something serious, but you guys got me distracted ... (ballet? Isn't that Russian MA? Systema?)

Will write something serious later. Maybe much later. Supertyphoon is about to hit us here and I have to get back to reality quickly. Hope to continue later.
Just heard on the news about your super typhoon and that their is another on the way, hope all is well with you over there.

regards


Pat

[shootodog]

Just heard on the news about your super typhoon and that their is another on the way, hope all is well with you over there.

regards


Pat

what blind luck! the typhoon swerves and misses the densly populated central luzon. it hits the forsets of the pacific coast.

[Pat OMalley]

we have been seeing it on the news for the past 3 days and more so today, seems to be a lot od damage and a lot of people lost. And a lot of it due to illegal logging.

regards to all


Pat