need help

[learning:::::::]

hi sorry to bother anyone, but ive just registered i dont practice or preach any martial art i really just read about it and to be honest theres only one which makes me want to learn more ninjutsu the problem is i cant get my questions answered properly any where else and someone who has dedicated his life to martial arts like all you men and women has advised me to ask questions at this site so i would be honered if you would help also this is my first post sorry if any of you are disgusted that i have chosen to be a member bearing in mind i dont do martial arts but i am genuinly extremely intrested also sorry if this post ends up in the wrong or inapropiate forum them im sorry

my 1st question is how many forms or systems are there of ninjutsu also are they all sub styles of ninjutsu meaning are they all under the one form known as ninjutsu

much appreciated

[pocketwarrior]

I know nothing about ninjustsu, but stop appologizing and dont worry mate. everyone here is fairly friendly and no one will be disgusted about your lack of MA knowledge after all everyone has to start somewhere.
I'm sure your question will be answered soon enough.

[learning:::::::]

ive never posted in any forum before so im not sure how the system works but thanks pocketwarrior much appreciated :)

[Kreen_Warrior]

Hey learning, not to be insulting or anything, but here's a tip. Try to follow standard grammar and spelling. It makes your posts a lot easier to read, and it's not like it's a chat program where you have to rush.

Again, this is NOT a flame, not me being angry, just trying to offer some friendly help.

[teacher]

Hey there new member, it is nice to meet you.
I'm a bit embarassed no one has tried to answer your questions. So I'll set the ball rolling although I freely admit that I am not any kind of expert on ninjitsu. Hopefully if i make mistakes someone will correct them.
I believe that there are different schools of ninjitsu. Ninjitsu is a historic martial art from Japan. Ninjitsu should cover armed and unarmed fighting. Traditionally it would also include camouflage and disguise although I've not heard of any classes practising that aspect of the martial art.
Have a look in the styles section as well, there must be more help there.

[learning:::::::]

thank you all

[pocketwarrior]

So have you started training yet or are you still looking at different clubs?

[Buddroux]

http://ninjitsu.com

[learning:::::::]

I just have an interest in {ninjitsu ninjutsu} and its background like principals philosophy way of life its quite compelling and demanding ,I don’t think physically I will be taking part but I do enjoy reading about it .

[Saz]

I've moved this to the Ninjitsu forum, hopefully one of the ninjitsu practitioners will spot this and help you out.

[SilentNightfall]

Okay, so now let me give this a go... In specfic response to your question, Learning, there are no sub-levels to Ninjutsu. There are simply different forms/styles of it. The popular forms of Ninjutsu that always arise, Koga and Iga, have ceased to exist. Anyone making claims to have a lineage in Koga or Iga is most likely a fraud since no group with such claims has ever provided proof of such claims. Now then, the groups today that have true roots in Ninjutsu are the Bujinkan, Genbukan, and Jinenkan. The latter two are branches off the Bujinkan as both their heads were once students of Hatsumi-sensei who is the grandmaster of the Bujinkan. Now then, the Bujinkan is a system comprised of nine seperate schools, 3-4 of which are pure Ninjutsu while all but one of the remaining have Ninjutsu roots. To public knowledge, these three organizations are the only ones teaching legitimate Ninjutsu still today. No other organizations have actual proof of lineage other than a written history that would be all to easy to make up. Hope this helps you. Any other questions, feel free to ask. Ja!

[learning:::::::]

Thank you very much for answering my question funny enough I read just about every post you write or reply to because it makes a lot of sense and its most intriguing to a noob like me I would of asked you directly but I saw the senior member tag and put my tail between my legs .
Thanks again most appreciated

[SilentNightfall]

Just glad that I could be of service. You're most welcome.

[Saz]

Originally posted by learning:::::::
I would of asked you directly but I saw the senior member tag and put my tail between my legs

I know your new, but this place is not an ego fest, so don't be afraid to speak to someone because they have a higher post count that you do, or because they're a senior member/moderator. There's no member hierarchy like that here, and no-one's going to jump on you if you ask them a question, so feel free, otherwise you'll end up not enjoying this place and just lurking about in the background. We were all beginners at one point :)

[Zamfoo]

Senior members aren't that scary are we?:D

but Learning have you contacted any clubs in your area yet? i think that'd be the best way to check if you really like this art.

[SilentNightfall]

Couldn't agree more with that one, Kgirl. We're all here to learn from one another and engage in discussion. No one is better than anyone else regardless of their art, and especially not their post count (I was here first! Neener, neener, neener! LoL.) Don't be afraid to ask questions of anyone. We're all here to help as best we can.

[learning:::::::]

I don't think I will be taking part in any martial art im to far away from proper dojos dedicated to ninpo/ninjutsu in its full form , I am really just interested in reading about Ninjutsu the un Americanised version where its not raped of its dignity in movies and clothing and obsolete fantasy weapons and stupid websites real ultimate power ect lol .
Im mostly looking at these subjects philosophy ,tactics ,styles ,history and even though some information about ninjutsu lies dormant or most protected even none existent ,I still enjoy reading what I can find at the moment im reading this http://www.ninpo.org/historicalrecords/bansenshukai.html
quite interesting im hoping to move on to techniques soon , one sticks out but I don’t know the name I believe it’s a wall scaling method it paints images in my imagination so I want to find out if such thinks really exist ,but from the information I found recently I would not be surprised if it did .
Could someone possibly point me in the direction of detailed philosophy regarding Ninjutsu/ninpo I would be most appreciative and hopefully enlightened once again .

[SilentNightfall]

You may want to try the book "Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions" by Masaaki Hatsumi (Grandmaster of the Bujinkan organization). It contains history, philosophy, and many other things that all prove to be fascinating. Truly a wonderful read.

[learning:::::::]

I will read it soon thanks again
I don't suppose you could answer this could you

http://shell.world-net.co.nz/~jimgould/index.html

whom or what faction , ryu etc are these people and have they anything to do with ninjutsu i heard bad things could you clarify
no offence to its students or founders I have little knowledge so i am seeking information hence the user name learning

[learning:::::::]

Ninjutsu Hiketsu Bun
(Essence of Ninjutsu)
by To****sugu Takamatsu


The essence of all martial arts and military strategies is
self-protection and the prevention of danger. Ninjutsu epitomizes the
fullest concept of self-protection of not only the physical body, but the
mind and spirit as well. The way of the ninja is the way of enduring,
surviving, and prevailing over all that would destroy one. More than merely
delivering strikes and slashes, and deeper in significance than the simple
out-witting of an enemy; ninjutsu is the way of attaining that which we need
while making the world a better place. The skill of the ninja is the art
of winning.
In the beginning study of any combative martial art, proper motivation
is crucial. Without the proper frame of mind, continuous exposure to
fighting techniques can lead to ruin instead of self-development. But this
fact is not different from any other beneficial practice in life carried to
extremes. Medical science is dedicated to the betterment of health and the
relief of suffering, and yet the misuse of drugs and the exultation of the
physician's skills can lead people to a state where an individual's health
is no longer within his or her personal control. A nutritious well-balanced
diet works to keep a person alive, vital, and healthy, but grossly
over-eating, over-drinking, or taking in too many chemicals is a sure way
to poison the body. Governments are established to oversee the harmonious
interworking of all parts of society, but when the rulers become greedy,
hungry for power, or lacking in wisdom, the country is subjected to
needless wars, disorder, or civil and economic chaos. A religion, when
based on faith developed through experience, a broad and questing mind, and
an unflagging pursuit of universal understanding, is of inspiration and
comfort to people. Once a religion loses its original focus, however, it
becomes a deadly thing with which to deceive, control, and tax the people
through the manipulation of their beliefs and fears. It is the same with
the martial arts. The skills of self-protection, which should provide a
feeling of inner peace and security for the marial artist, so often
develop without a balance in the personality and lead the lesser martial
artist into warped realms of unceasing conflict and competition which
eventually consume him.
If an expert in the fighting arts sincerely pursues the essence of
ninjutsu, devoid of the influence of the ego's desires, the student will
progressively come to realize the ultimate secret for becoming
invincible - the attainment of the 'mind and eyes of the divine.' The
combatant who would win must be in harmony with the scheme of totality, and
must be guided by an intuitive knowledge of the playing out of fate. In
tune with the providence of heaven and the impartial justice of nature, and
following a clear and pure heart full of trust in the inevitable, the ninja
captures the insight that will guide him successfully into battle when he
must conquer and conceal himself protectively from hostility when he must
acquiesce. The vast universe, beautiful in its coldly impersonal totality,
contains all that we call good and bad, all the answers for all the
paradoxes we see around us. By opening his eyes and his mind, the ninja
can responsively follow the subtle seasons and reasons of heaven, changing
just as change is necessary, adapting always, so that in the end there is
no such thing as surprise for the ninja.

this was the first bit of info I found on ninjutsu before I began seeking its writings etc i think its what you mentioned

[SilentNightfall]

That is actually a very beautiful writing, however, it is not the book I have mentioned. Takamatsu-sensei was Hatsumi-sensei's instructor in Ninjutsu who made him the head of all 9 schools that comprise the Bujinkan. Hatsumi-sensei, during his time as head of the Bujinkan, has written many books and one of the, which I mentioned, was "Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions."

[SilentNightfall]

As for the link to that website you gave, Learning... It appears it is another break off and the instructor has had experience in both the Bujinkan and the Genbukan. It just doesn't say how much. Perhaps just enough to throw a few pictures of stances (which are very poorly done, mind you) up on his website. I'd stay away from this one.

[Zamfoo]

That guy's Hoko is just hilarious. what are you defending against basketball players?
Kinda looks phoney to me too.

[learning:::::::]

thanks again

[JimGould]

message boards like this is that people make all kind of statements without bothering to ask the actual person. So, any questions? or are you all going to just hide behind assumed names and made up martial arts?

[SilentNightfall]

Err... Who exactly is hiding behind assumed names and made up martial arts, Jim? Not exactly sure what sparked this response. In any event, welcome to MAP.

[JimGould]

come show me your computer boy ;)

Lets face it, you dont actually train do you ;) caught ya ;)

[JimGould]

OH BTW the 'I heard bad things' Lets name names shall we... Who , when, where ;) lets put all our cards on the table child :)

[JimGould]

Joshua, thanks, I stumbled across this board and find I am being slagged off.. I don't like it... I have a web site with full contact details and details about who we are and what we do... Any questions can be emailed to me directly... I will most likely say 'read the web site' cos its all there... But this back stabbing on message boards pisses me off

[Mordred]

Originally posted by JimGould
Joshua, thanks, I stumbled across this board and find I am being slagged off.. I don't like it... I have a web site with full contact details and details about who we are and what we do... Any questions can be emailed to me directly... I will most likely say 'read the web site' cos its all there... But this back stabbing on message boards pisses me off

Did I miss something? Who is slagging you off?

Originally posted by JimGould
come show me your computer boy

:confused:

Is it only me or what are you on about?

[SilentNightfall]

Actually, Mordred, I already solved the mystery. The link that Learning posted was apparently to Mr. Gould's website and so he took offense at the opinions posted herein.

[nin_jason]

1 + 1 = 2

http://shell.world-net.co.nz/~jimgould/index.html

= Jim's site


I like your site Jim and always browse through it once and a while. Don't let the coments from randoms in the dark get to you. There will always be that sort of carry on with anything and everything.


Keep up the good work.

[nin_jason]

Beat me to it.

[SilentNightfall]

For clarification, I have never doubted the effectiveness of anything anyone has ever taught. I simply do not always agree that people should claim to be teaching Ninjutsu. That is all. This should not be offensive to anyone. I don't believe anyone who no longer actively trains with the head of one of the X-kans should claim to teach Ninjutsu. You have broken away from the source and what you have learned from the time you began to the time you have ended such training is all of Ninjutsu that you know if you do this. Stopping the flow of knowledge means you shall never reach the point of learning true Ninjutsu, thus you can not claim to teach it. Obviously I only consider the X-kans because they are the only organizations that have written proof to show that they teach Ninjutsu. No other schools have provided more than a history. Never any written documentation. This is just my take. No need to take offense. I am entitled to my opinion, but I would never say that an art is ineffective. I just don't always agree that a certain art should be labeled as Ninjutsu.

[learning:::::::]

Jim Gould

1. I don't train in martial arts, I said it before and I said it again

2.martial arts isn't my main interest so I lack knowledge greatly

3.boy --no---calm collected teenager more like ,not prone to outbursts to defend advanced apologies from learners

4.i heard bad things could you clarify
no offence to its students or founders I have little knowledge so I am seeking information hence the user name learning--that was posted after the link to the website so I apologised in advanced or did you not read that

5.put cards on table ,I was advised on another site witch will not be named so that fires do not continue to burn. they said this you may even be proud — blab blab blab is a break away group of ninjutsu and because of the technical nature of it content anyone practicing from its website should be accompanied for safety reasons learner or advanced .

6. this was a good thread why did you not email me with complaints as I posted it first ,you could of even taught me something and its saves admins closing this that and your mouth

7. should I go postal on his a** y/n vote please ,all right little girl time to get nasty

8. vodevil

9. im some what offended but I believe its over know, sorry if you were offended then I apologise in advance yet again

10. might as well round it up to the nearest whole number lol

[JimGould]

Mordred: Maybe you should actually READ this thread.

[JimGould]

OK well if you wont name name and want to keep the fire burning go ahead but don't you thinks its a little silly?

In response to Joshua, I am not going to argue that point as you are kind of correct however... Tanamura does not learn from Hatsumi any more so? Manaka does not learn from Hatsumi any more so? I can only teach what I learned in 10 years of training in the organisation and yes it may not be the whole thing but it does not take away from what I teach. Having said that I have trained with 3 TOP (12th Dan+) Bujinkan teachers in the last 2 years so do they not count? (ps didn't learn anything new). Maybe we can carry on the thread with what people believe to be the source and how many times a year you should go? Do you honestly believe that someone who goes to Japan once every 2 years for 2 weeks is learning from the source? I do not!! I have said this many many times. How many people in the Buj go to Japan each year? 1%? So are they all not learning Ninjutsu too?

[Mordred]

Originally posted by SilentNightfall
Perhaps just enough to throw a few pictures of stances (which are very poorly done, mind you) up on his website. I'd stay away from this one.

Originally posted by Zamfoo
That guy's Hoko is just hilarious. what are you defending against basketball players?
Kinda looks phoney to me too.

Jim, why, that sounds like more ppl who think the stances look wrong. Could it be that they are all also not really Ninjutsu practitioners :rolleyes:

Originally posted by JimGould
Mordred: Maybe you should actually READ this thread..

Originally posted by JimGould
Having said that I have trained with 3 TOP (12th Dan+) Bujinkan teachers in the last 2 years so do they not count? (ps didn't learn anything new).

I have - and the only thing that I see is that you can not take critisism. Obviously you know so much that you could head up your own ryu. :rolleyes:

[SilentNightfall]

Most everyone who has read through the many threads here on MAP knows my stance on the Genbukan and Jinenkan, Jim. Tanemura and Manaka both received Menkyo in various schools, however, so their claims are obviously not to be ignored. Hatsumi-sensei is, as you mentioned, the man when it comes to Ninjutsu as far as Takamatsuden traditions go. He was the one who trained with O'Sensei Takamatsu for 15 years of his life, no one else. He, undoubtedly, has the most comprehensive knowledge of Ninjutsu out of all the three grandmasters, and he still claims that he has not begun to teach the true nature of Ninjutsu. Interpret this as you will. I do agree with you as far as those who do not travel each year to see Sensei but hold an instructor's ranking. I am fortunate to have an insstructor who visits Japan several times a year as well as travels all over the world for various seminars. Papasan is currently in New Zealand and will be going to Japan in March. I am also fortune to be spending a year in Japan come summer of 2005. But yes, I do agree with you as far as teachers going to train with Hatsumi-sensei at least once a year, though it has been my experience that most instructor's I have come across do.

[Zamfoo]

Alright lets stop fighting. This doesn't help learning's problem. Getting into a fight about things people said is pointless and nobody learns anything.

P.S does anyone else see that modred's post quotes me for things jim said??

[JimGould]

Yes Zamfoo, they do appear to have come from you.

Mordred: As for people not thinking my stances are right , well whoopieflipping do (a 5th kyu training allegedly lets see 1 year tops? knows stances?)... you judge from a web site? Thats so sad..
Now are you thinking the stances (lets say Doko and Itchimonji) are from Gyoko Ryu? Togakure Ryu? Kukishinden Ryu? Oh you mean you didn't know they were all different ? ;) Join a Dojo man.

As I say, go join a Dojo..believe me there are more fakes in than out ;) ps I don't believe you really do train in the Buj at all ;) and as for the guy commenting who then says 'i don't train in ma' WTF? how the hell can you know right from wrong?

SilentNightFall 'though it has been my experience that most instructor's I have come across do.' Sorry mate but you need to get about more ;)

Oh and yes I can take criticism but in no way will I take back stabbing and slagging off of people anonymously on a message board... you people should know better. If you want to come train with me FREE and then come back here and comment then thats fair enough because then you may have the smallest clues as to what you are talking about.

[JimGould]

Joshua, yes I know Ed is in NZ.. hey maybe I will be there training with him ;)

[Mordred]

Originally posted by JimGould
Mordred: As for people not thinking my stances are right , well whoopieflipping do (a 5th kyu training allegedly lets see 1 year tops? knows stances?)... you judge from a web site? Thats so sad..

I have trained for 2 and a half years. Does that mean that I can't see the difference between your stances and the stances demonstrated by Masaaki Hatsumi?

I judge from a web site because you choose to demonstrate the stances on your web site. If you were doing a variation on the stances from a specific ryu (e.g. gyokko) then say so on the page or say so here before you post numerous offensive messages on this forum.

Originally posted by JimGould
Oh and yes I can take criticism but in no way will I take back stabbing and slagging off of people anonymously on a message board... you people should know better. If you want to come train with me FREE and then come back here and comment then thats fair enough because then you may have the smallest clues as to what you are talking about.
I don't see critisism as back-stabbing. You have repeatedly resorted to name-calling and childish comments like 'you don't know because you don't really train in ninjutsu'. Grow up! You frequently make comments about everyone here being adolescents however your behaviour is really starting to sound like an upset 10 yr old.

Why don't you post a poll with pictures of your stances on this forum, then you can have a look at what people really think?

[JimGould]

Oooo touchy touchy now the boots on the other foot arn't we? ;) lesson to be learned I think child...

[Mordred]

Have a look at this thread regarding JimGould's site:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8633

For those to lazy to click the post read:
"Any one claiming to teach kuji on the net, highly suspect. That, and the kamae are screwed up. Please, don't try and learn anything from this site, you'll only end up getting yourself hurt or worse."

Just another person who thinks that the stances on the site are wrong.

[learning:::::::]

i said i did not want to say names and show cards but thats where i heard one thing before i searched for more info on whatever the hell it is were going on about
and yes i am lol............................................... ................lol