To Shin Do

[badbeat]

Could anyone possibly give me some opinions on To Shin Do? Any pluses or minuses or any other information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks..

[The Walker]

The main To Shin Do dojo is about 2 hours from where I live. Stephen K. Hayes is the head sensei, being trained by Hatsumi. He's the bearded one you see with Hatsumi in all those pictures. He's written several books on the art of Ninpo, and he seems to be extremely knowledgeable on this subject. I suggest you look into it if you happen to be nearby.

[SilentNightfall]

The one minus about Toshindo (and it is a big one in my most humble opinion) is that Stephen K. Hayes no longer trains with Hatsumi-sensei (or so everyone has told me despite some small rumors). If this is true, Hayes has cut himself off from the source. What does this mean? Just that Hayes does not teach Ninjutsu anymore. Not exactly sure if he still claims to or not. This is not to say his system is ineffective though. Unfortunately I have heard he teaches a watered down version of Bujinkan Ninjutsu and students of his don't benefit terribly much, though his senior students, I have heard, are quite impressive. Perhaps when his organization grew beyond a certain point he was unable to provide quality training and had to change his teaching methods. I have no idea. It is worth a look, however, but maybe also visit a Bujinkan dojo and compare the training. There may be a big difference as to which would be more worth while. If you do make the comparison, please report back. I would love to hear how the Toshindo training is.

[badbeat]

Well the second school, I believe, is down here in Tampa, FL and the "Dean" is Mark Russo. I think I might give it a try because they give free 30 day trial. It won't be for a couple months though. I'm still considering kickboxing or MT Kickboxing, but since the location of the Quest school is hard to beat it may be To Shin Do instead or maybe both ;)

These are the instructors

http://www.tampa-quest-ctr.com/teachers.htm

[The Walker]

I'm not sure about the training deal, and To Shin Do is not a branch directly from Hatsumi's Bujinkan, but he is still a certified instructor, and he does teach ninpo there. The quest centers are also included on www.winjutsu.com, so I am assuming that Hatsumi recongnizes him and his schools.

Btw- Hayes has written several books that are seen everywhere that Hatsumi's books are sold. From these books, I repeatively see Hayes being recognized as 'The western authority on ninjutsu'. These are a few things I've found out about this guy- he seems to be authentic and very true to his art.

[badbeat]

The guy who runs Tampa Quest Center has a story about going to japan and taken the test for 5th "degree" blackbelt with Hatsumi so he must be recognized...

[SilentNightfall]

Hayes' is supposedly the "Western authority" on Ninjutsu because he was one of the first Westerners to be allowed to train in the art. It is unknown, however, whether or not hayes travels back to Japan to train with Hatsumi-sensei ever since forming Toshindo.

[The Walker]

Not sure...I should really try getting to Dayton and check it out

[JimGould]

You can also email directly from the Quest Center web site and ask them all these questions. Thats way the story comes from the horses mouth you might say :)

[badbeat]

When you email a school and ask em if they're good? might be a little biased.

[JimGould]

No, I did not mean that. I meant History of the school etc.

[ninjim3]

I have trained both with Stephen K. Hayes at the Dayton Quest Center and with Mark Russo at the Tampa Quest Center. Mr. Russo was my original ninjutsu teacher from 1986 to 1991. He is an incredible martial artist! He is truly a martial artist of the highest caliber, and Mr. Russo can "deliver!"

Stephen K. Hayes was my teacher from 1996 to around 2000. He is quite literally "the Father of American Ninjutsu." He is an amazing man, and a truly gifted martial artist of which (in my humble opinion) very few ninjutsu practioners in America are of the same experience and ability level. Both of these men were my first role-models in the martial arts, and in life, and I feel that I was very, very fortunate.

Toshindo is the creation of Stephen K. Hayes, and he will say directly that it is not ninjutsu. It is his own martial art, derived from ninjutsu principles. He has stated in various martial arts magazines that he does still teach ninjutsu, but only to a few select individuals. If I can recall correctly, he stated that "very few individuals today could live the way true ninjutsu demands..." or something to that effect.

Mr. Russo did pass the fifth dan test in Japan, and it was given to him by Hatsumi Sensei. Mr. Russo has however also practiced ninjutsu with Stephen for many years, before Stephen moved on to create Toshindo.

It is my position that if your desire is to learn ninjutsu, then do so at a reputable Bujinkan Dojo. If you desire to learn Toshindo, do so at a Quest Center.

I hope this helps!
-Jim McFarland, Nidan, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

[agent9869]

Good post, Jim. I agree with you. I never trained with Russo, but did train with Steve Hayes. He is an amazing martial artist. I'm not as familiar with To Shin Do, but do know that he was the western world's foremost authority on Ninpo for 20 years. He's now in his 50's and is ready to be on his own. In my opinion, it matters little that he does not train with Hatsumi anymore. Hayes is still probably far superior than almost all Bujinkan blackbelts anywhere in the world.

[creaturegrl]

I train in To-shin Do at the Illinois Quest Center
(in naperville Illinois)
and I highly reccomend it.
The senior instructor there is Michael Eichenburg, if anyone lives in that area check it out!
It's great training with great people!
:D

[badbeat]

I went to watch 3 classes last week at To Shin Do. I watched a Level 4 (blackbelts) class, some intermediate class, and a beginner class. It appeared that the instructors were very good, and the classes were fast paced and interesting. I'm pretty sure I'm going to try it out.

[JibranK]

Hayes still trains with Hatsumi, he just doesn't test for higher dan as 11+ dan are actually the same as 10 according to Soke

[vladmr1313]

Badbeat,

I currently attend classes at the Tampa Quest To Shindo Center. I've been going for almost 2 months now and I have to say I'm enjoying it.

I don't know how it compares to a Bujinkan dojo as I've never attended classes with one.

Show up take the 30 day trial period and see what you think. :)

I'm usually there Tues and Thurs mornings.


V

[SilentNightfall]

Thought this might be of interest to a few of you. Sometime after the last Tai Kai, Hatsumi-sensei gave a list of instructors that he did not wish for anyone to train with. He said it is fine to remain friends with these individuals, but that training with them was forbidden. Going against this wish is said to be grounds for barring practitioners from training at Hombu Dojo/in the Bujinkan. I believe the reason given for this list is that the individuals have not trained much with Soke in the past decade, which Hatsumi-sensei has proclaimed to be a critical time for training in this art. Apparently these individuals missed a lot of what Soke has been passing on, so much so that their art is very distinguishable from that of the Bujinkan. Take it for what you will. I certainly have no desire to be banned from training in Japan or in the Bujinkan. Anyway, here's the list:

Stephen Hayes
Shoto Tanemura
Fumio Manaka
Muramatsu-sensei
Ishizuki-sensei

[xplasma]

I am soooooo banned :D :D :D :D :D :D :D:D :D

:yeleyes:


Thinking of seeking out the rest of the list so I can be really banned and maybe get on the list. I would love to be banned by Hatsumi Sensei!

Stephen Hayes - Soke of To Shin Do
Shoto Tanemura - Soke of Genbukan (and the reason I am banned and very happy about it!)
Fumio Manaka - Soke of the Jinenkan


Muramatsu-sensei - Who is this?
Ishizuki-sensei - Who is this?

[Keikai]

Hayes still trains with Hatsumi, he just doesn't test for higher dan as 11+ dan are actually the same as 10 according to Soke

No he does not, he has not been to see Hatsumi in over 5 years and that is why there is a big argument going on over this, please get the facts right Jibran, this is why people scowled at you on Kutaki!!

[JibranK]

I was misinformed about that at the time I posted it

[honest_john]

Apparently Hayes is now "Persona Non Grata" as far as Hatsumi Sensei says and has been thrown out of the Bujinkan and barred from entering the Hombu Dojo.

It was announced earlier this year.

[Peaceful Tiger]

Thought this might be of interest to a few of you. Sometime after the last Tai Kai, Hatsumi-sensei gave a list of instructors that he did not wish for anyone to train with. He said it is fine to remain friends with these individuals, but that training with them was forbidden. Going against this wish is said to be grounds for barring practitioners from training at Hombu Dojo/in the Bujinkan. I believe the reason given for this list is that the individuals have not trained much with Soke in the past decade, which Hatsumi-sensei has proclaimed to be a critical time for training in this art. Apparently these individuals missed a lot of what Soke has been passing on, so much so that their art is very distinguishable from that of the Bujinkan. Take it for what you will. I certainly have no desire to be banned from training in Japan or in the Bujinkan. Anyway, here's the list:

Stephen Hayes
Shoto Tanemura
Fumio Manaka
Muramatsu-sensei
Ishizuki-sensei

Very surprised to see that Brian McCarthy is not on the list, but then again, his organisation is on its arse and he is only a mere 7th Dan. :D

[snake_plisskin]

At first, I was wondering who Brian McCarthy is. Then it hit me: he was mentioned in Tetsuzan as one of "five gentlemen [who] received awards from Soke for their distinguished services in spreading peace and friendship in the world through the bufu of ninjutsu" (Tetsuzan 8) at the 1988 Daikomyosai. He's from Ireland.

I was under the impression--rumor had it waaaaay back in '98-- that a few of our Scottish brothers and sisters seceded from Bujinkan, but not the Irish. Am I to take it we're now to hang signs outside our dojo that read, "NO IRISH"?

If you've ever seen any of Hatsumi's Quest videos of the various ryuha, you've probably seen Tetsuji Ishizuka training directly with Hatsumi . He was a 9th dan as of 1996, and was one of the "original" (as far as I can determine) group that "grew up" with Soke in the '70s and/or '80s.

Tatsuo Muramatsu was 8th dan in Bujinkan as of the same date. As far as I can ascertain, his "specialty", as one would have put it Back in the Day, was "street fighting". That (the streetfighting info) was passed to me waaaay back in the day by Otto Cardew and Al Williams from Michigan, and should be considered apocryphal at best.

I'm going straight to Jigoku!

Whoops, looks like I should be banned from the Bujinkan, too!

Jinenkan as taught by Manaka-sensei is solid, hard training similar to how I learned in the mid-'90s by my friend who'd run Schoolcraft College's (MI) shibu. I think it's a sort of "back to the basics" movement with a Boot Camp feel to it. I can not cast aspersions on the training; in fact, last week (hello, Josh, again) I trained with two licensed Jinenkan instructors (at least, that's what the Jinenkan web site says they are....) and it was durn good training, really rooted, really energetic, incredibly spirited, and "no B.S."

If that's being bad, then I don' wanna be good!

As far as To-shin-do is concerned... I know only what I read on their web site. I think part of the main philosophy is Hayes takes traditional kata [sic] and adds a good amt of haymakers, sucker punches, and other attacks by uke. I only met Stephen Hayes once (said "Hello" to him at his table at the '97 Tai Kai, woo hoo) and as far as I could see from his movement on stage with Rumiko, he was still "spot on" in his taijutsu.

If he was declared persona non grata, well, then, use your own discretion. After all, it's your life, your time, and, not to be an arse, your paycheck you'll be spending.

"It was announced this year." As I teach research writing, I'm always interested in differentiating between Primary and Secondary sources, so.... Announced by whom?

Oh, one more fyi: Stephen K. Hayes was known as the "Western World's Foremost Authority on Ninjutsu" because the publishers of his books didn't consider the Middle East--specifically, Isreal--to be part of the "Western World". You may derive your own conclusions from that.

If you train with people who've been "Booted from the Booj" and get booted yourself, what's the penalty for training with people who've had the audacity (like my old Tai Chi teacher, Tsong Yuan Ho) to never even JOIN the 'Booj? Do you get drawn and quartered?

:p Sorry, just being snide!

--Scott Landis

[Bouk Teef]

Very surprised to see that Brian McCarthy is not on the list, but then again, his organisation is on its arse and he is only a mere 7th Dan. :D
Ahhh, another informed, knowledgeable comment.
Some corrections - "organisation committed to training in Ninjitsu" and "strictly speaking an eighth Dan". Never mind, Dan grades really don't mean anything though do they?!!! :) [10th - 15th Dan] :D :D :D

[SilentNightfall]

Hey, Scott! Great to see you here on MAP! Sorry I missed you in class last Sunday. Classes had me too worn to be able to stand up and function. I'm sure you know how that is though. Hope to hear from you soon. I'll be starting a group down at Ursinus College in he next week after Papa-san puts on a demo there for me so you're always welcome to come down and train whenever you're free.

[Keikai]

Ahhh, another informed, knowledgeable comment.
Some corrections - "organisation committed to training in Ninjitsu" and "strictly speaking an eighth Dan". Never mind, Dan grades really don't mean anything though do they?!!! :) [10th - 15th Dan] :D :D :D


Here we go again!! :D

And about this 10 - 15th dan

11th Dan - judan chigyo
12th dan - judan suigyo
13th dan - judan kagyo
14th dan - judan fugyo
15th dan - judan kugyo

that is their correct applications.

But back to the BBD bashing....

[Bouk Teef]

:p

[Peaceful Tiger]

Yeah, I mean, let's be honest here, your organisation is on its arse, correct? :D
...and as a side-point, am I also correct in assuming that BBD only learn from one school, that being Togakure?
Therefore, how can they be an organisation commited to training in Ninjutsu?...or as you put it, Ninjitsu

[Bouk Teef]

Yeah, I mean, let's be honest here, your organisation is on its arse, correct? :D Well, I guess thats a matter of opinion. I am sure you can provide evidence to back up your comment. I personally can't wait to see what intelligent / thought provoking statements you will come out with. :rolleyes:
...and as a side-point, am I also correct in assuming that BBD only learn from one school, that being Togakure? Incorrect
Therefore, how can they be an organisation commited to training in Ninjutsu?...or as you put it, NinjitsuI am sorry that my spelling isn't up to standard.

If you want to add to the debate there is a thread already open:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19518
although I don't think you will have anything constructive to say. It amazes me that when the topic of the BBD gets brought up (always by those who seem to "have a beef" with the BBD) the vast majority of statements are simply insults rather than concidered opinion.

If there are further spelling mastikes in thus pist than I hamble oppoligise.

[SilentNightfall]

Actually, and not to add to this debate, Peaceful Tiger would happen to be correct. Unless the heads of the BBD still train with Hatsumi-sensei on a regular basis, there is no way that they could be teaching anything but Togakure ryu Ninjutsu as information on Kumogakure ryu is just now coming out and information on Gyokushin ryu, to my knowledge, is not yet known except maybe to a select few of the Japanese shihan. If you can provide evidence that the BBD has information from these ryuha, then by all means I would love to hear it as I could not find any information on kata or anything of the sort from these two ryuha in all of my research.

[Peaceful Tiger]

[Well, I guess thats a matter of opinion. I am sure you can provide evidence to back up your comment. I personally can't wait to see what intelligent / thought provoking statements you will come out with. :rolleyes:
Incorrect

Really?, I was led to believe that your members are either leaving altogether or joining the Bujinkan in droves. I can personally attest to the fact that the Budo Warriors have had two advanced Kyu grades and one black-belt come over to us in the past couple of years from the BBD. They are now Shidoshi-Ho and doing a lot better under Soke Hatsumi than Shidoshi Brian.




I am sorry that my spelling isn't up to standard.

Not too fussy about the spelling mate, but when you write "Ninjitsu" instead of "Ninjutsu", it smacks of those bogus Koga Ryu organisations that still seem to be plagueing the Internet. Of course, not that your organisation is in any way bogus you'll understand. ;)




If you want to add to the debate there is a thread already open:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19518
although I don't think you will have anything constructive to say. It amazes me that when the topic of the BBD gets brought up (always by those who seem to "have a beef" with the BBD) the vast majority of statements are simply insults rather than concidered opinion.

If there are further spelling mastikes in thus pist than I hamble oppoligise.

Thanks for that thread. I read it with great interest as quite a few years ago I was actually thinking of training under Angus Neilson in Leith/ Edinburgh/ Herriot-Watt Uni? and visited his shop whilst in the area in order to get details for his classes. He was doing a 'Battle Orders' franchise thing at the time and selling some pretty good kit as I remember.

In those days I actually believed that BBD was part of the Bunjinkan and didn't know any better. If I had gone on to train with him, I would in all probability either have left by now anyway, having found out the truth or be sitting on your side of the fence right now defending the BBD.

I'd like to know at what point your students are made aware that Shidoshi Brian is nothing at all to do with the Bujinkan and is purely running his own watered-down ninjutsu enterprise?
Or indeed how long does it usually take for them to eventually find that out for themselves?

[snake_plisskin]

Josh:

Nice to see you tooooo-- (imagine Conner MacLeod being hit in stomach by the Kurgan on rooftop voice). If you want to see some Gyokoshin ryu, according to--and it's late and I might be tired--I THINK it was Glenn Morris (don't tell him I told 'ya, heh!), some of the sacrifice throws were actually "thrown" (pun intended) into Kodokan Judo when Takamatsu and Kano-sensei were compatriots. This is only according to rumor and hearsay, and probably very big imaginations.

Maybe I'll get to Ursinus sometime soon. I'm a little busy with the ESU Shibu (cough...when we can get people!) and getting a demo ready for the Naval Depot in Hburg. Um, not to the Marine detachment but to the Federal Police and the firefighters stationed there. The fun is neverending--like a story!

--Scott

Um, what, exactly, does "BBD" stand for? Bujinkan Belfast Dojo? Bujinkan Badass Dojo? Big Bad Dojo? Just making light, and trying to become more informed.

[SilentNightfall]

I believe the BBD stands for Bujinkan Brian Dojo after it's founder. :rolleyes: Hope the ESU Shibu goes well for you, Scott. I know what you mean about looking for members, but I think I'm good as for as that goes. Apparently I'm a good PR man as I've talked to the STAR (Students Together Against Rape) organization and other people to get the word out.

As for the Glenn Morris information, that's definitely some interesting stuff that I'll try to look into whenever I can find the time. Unfortunately, such moments are a rare commodity around here with me trying to act as president of three clubs, which oddly enough all relate to Japan somehow. Hmm... Obsession? Nah... But seriously... If I can find the time, I'll look into it. I've been really interested in Gyokushin and Kumogakure ryu ever since I read Hatsumi-sensei's quotes about their taijutsu being significantly different both from the other ryu as well as from each other. I'm afraid only time will tell on that issue, however. Definitely feel free to get in contact with me about visiting though, Scott. We can network and all that fun stuff. A lowly shodan like me is going to need all the sources of information and instruction he can get for his group. If I'm lucky though, the group will produce someone who actually has some decent amount of skill and can truly lead it in my absence when I'm in Japan next year. Shouldn't be too hard. I expect at least 99.9% of the group to surpass me within the first month. :D In all seriousness, I hope I can at least pass on a decent amount of useful information to my people in the same spirit that I've gotten all that I know from generous people like you, Papa-san, Jim Foley, Chad and Eric, Bruce and Dave, Charles Daniel, etc. Guess we'll see. And I've rambles enough for now so I'm off to actually get some sleep. Look forward to seeing more posts by you here on the forum, Scott! Take care!

[Keikai]

[QUOTE=Bouk Teef]
Really?, I was led to believe that your members are either leaving altogether or joining the Bujinkan in droves. I can personally attest to the fact that the Budo Warriors have had two advanced Kyu grades and one black-belt come over to us in the past couple of years from the BBD. They are now Shidoshi-Ho and doing a lot better under Soke Hatsumi than Shidoshi Brian.
[/I]QUOTE]

We are in the same situation, we have had about 5 in the last six months thanks to the BBD and its so hard to drag their stuck in the ways kata and Henka out of them, they lack freedom of movement.

[QUOTE]
I'd like to know at what point your students are made aware that Shidoshi Brian is nothing at all to do with the Bujinkan and is purely running his own watered-down ninjutsu enterprise?
Or indeed how long does it usually take for them to eventually find that out for themselves?

Some clubs never tell their students, this is why i left, felt lied to and deceived!

[Keikai]

Sorry for the double post, trying to get that quote thing right turns into a nightmare when you are thick!! (or in the BBD :D )

[Bouk Teef]

**Start of light hearted joke**
Sorry for the double post, trying to get that quote thing right turns into a nightmare when you are thick!! (or in the BBD :D )
For the benefit of Greg and Peacefull - press the quote button on the post you wish to quote from. Type words in after the '[/QUOTE]'. Feel free to edit said quote etc... Hopefully that should clear it up!! :) :) :)
**End of light hearted joke**

[Keikai]

Trying to find a quip about the BBD at this point!!! :D :D :D

[Peaceful Tiger]

Trying to find a quip about the BBD at this point!!! :D :D :D

Aww, come on!... there's loads :D

[ninjagurl]

To shin do is awesome. I have only trained in to shin do for 3 months now and it is amazing. I learn so much and I can see how I can apply all of it to the "real world". I have previously trained in Jeet Kune Do and ITF Tae Kwon Do, but this is so much better.

[saru1968]

way to go, bumping a 18 month old thread, glad your enjoying it though.

:-)

[2E0WHN]

To shin do is awesome. I have only trained in to shin do for 3 months now and it is amazing. I learn so much and I can see how I can apply all of it to the "real world". I have previously trained in Jeet Kune Do and ITF Tae Kwon Do, but this is so much better.

Ok. Credibility for you has gone right out of the window by saying the word Awesome. Makes you wonder if realultimatepower.nitwit has copyrighted that word.

[Lord Spooky]

Lets be nice a? She's only young and is obviously in awe of what she is studying.

[benkyoka]

Ok. Credibility for you has gone right out of the window by saying the word Awesome.

No, credibility goes out the window when you spell 'girl' as 'gurl'.

[Senban]

Personally I think it's great that Ninjagurl is enjoying her training so much. Who cares if she says "awesome"? Who cares how she spells her name?

Ninjagurl, don't let these cynical old sods grind you down. :D

[2E0WHN]

Awww. Not even a small bit?

BTW, when I looked in on this part from bringing up MAP, I do not know what To Shin Do thread I was going into. Two threads with the same title, now what are the chances of that happening?

[poryu]

Thought this might be of interest to a few of you. Sometime after the last Tai Kai, Hatsumi-sensei gave a list of instructors that he did not wish for anyone to train with. He said it is fine to remain friends with these individuals, but that training with them was forbidden. Going against this wish is said to be grounds for barring practitioners from training at Hombu Dojo/in the Bujinkan. I believe the reason given for this list is that the individuals have not trained much with Soke in the past decade, which Hatsumi-sensei has proclaimed to be a critical time for training in this art. Apparently these individuals missed a lot of what Soke has been passing on, so much so that their art is very distinguishable from that of the Bujinkan. Take it for what you will. I certainly have no desire to be banned from training in Japan or in the Bujinkan. Anyway, here's the list:

Stephen Hayes
Shoto Tanemura
Fumio Manaka
Muramatsu-sensei
Ishizuki-sensei

HI

Sorry but I disagree with this.

Manaka and Tanemura is obvious considering they are not in the bujinkan any more.

From what I gather Hayes is a paid up member each year, Muramatsu himself is also a paid up member and his students (I was told by someone who was traiing with him in Jpaan until recently) recieved Bujinkan certifcates .

As for Ishizuki??????????????????????/

I think you mean Ishizuka.

He is still active in the bujinkan trains still in the hombu and is oeo f the most senior members of the Bujinkan.

Please dont get hung up on ideal gossip being passed about.

You willnot be banned or kicked out of the bujinkan if you train with hayes, Muramatsu, Ishizuka so please people stop worrying

[poryu]

I'd like to know at what point your students are made aware that Shidoshi Brian is nothing at all to do with the Bujinkan and is purely running his own watered-down ninjutsu enterprise?
Or indeed how long does it usually take for them to eventually find that out for themselves?

HI

Some of us who were located near BBD dojo told our students immediately we found out.

Hatsumi was good enough to photocopy Brians letter and hand it out to everyone in Japan, they immediately copied it and mailed it out to everyone they thought would need to know or would be in terested.

Everyone who didnt need to know or were not interested found out as and when.

I still have a copy somewhere I will one day dig it out and find the date as its mentioned occasionally

[poryu]

Actually, and not to add to this debate, Peaceful Tiger would happen to be correct. Unless the heads of the BBD still train with Hatsumi-sensei on a regular basis, there is no way that they could be teaching anything but Togakure ryu Ninjutsu as information on Kumogakure ryu is just now coming out and information on Gyokushin ryu, to my knowledge, is not yet known except maybe to a select few of the Japanese shihan. If you can provide evidence that the BBD has information from these ryuha, then by all means I would love to hear it as I could not find any information on kata or anything of the sort from these two ryuha in all of my research.

I was a BBD member from 1985 - 1991 and I still have friends in the BBD today.

Your post is virtually 100% correct.

From my own experience and also from that my friends still have. The BBD does not and never did teach genuine Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu.

What they taught can be best termed as Bujinkan Taijutsu, not much different form the other dojo that only did and still does henka.

[poryu]

Well the second school, I believe, is down here in Tampa, FL and the "Dean" is Mark Russo. I think I might give it a try because they give free 30 day trial. It won't be for a couple months though. I'm still considering kickboxing or MT Kickboxing, but since the location of the Quest school is hard to beat it may be To Shin Do instead or maybe both ;)

These are the instructors

http://www.tampa-quest-ctr.com/teachers.htm


Hi

As ths thread is actually about Toshindo and not the BBD maybe we can get back on track.

i dont know the instrcutros at the Tampa dojo but i love these pics though

http://www.tampaquestma.com/Mark%204.JPG
http://www.tampaquestma.com/Helen%203.JPG

Why do people insist on taking the sleeves off there Gi, and why are they wearing Katchu Kote???

Whats this 'title of To Shi - Warrior Knight of the Silent Blade' all about.

reminds me of new age practises, can a Toshindo member explain what this silent blade thing is please

[Nick Mandilas]

Hmmm... that Helen is a bit of a milf!

anyway...


Why do people insist on taking the sleeves off there Gi, and why are they wearing Katchu Kote???


I think they are trying to look more "samurai-ish" for the pics


Whats this 'title of To Shi - Warrior Knight of the Silent Blade' all about.


It means as ninja, they have never or will never train with the "Singing-Sword" from the Bugs Bunny Cartoons!
:eek:

[bencole]

Boy, this thread is so full of mistakes and misrepresentations of fact that I just cannot sit quiet any more. Secure your seatbelts, folks. It may get bumpy.... :love:

From these books, I repeatively see Hayes being recognized as 'The western authority on ninjutsu'.

Hayes' is supposedly the "Western authority" on Ninjutsu because he was one of the first Westerners to be allowed to train in the art.

I do know that he was the western world's foremost authority on Ninpo for 20 years.

Ah, the benefits of repeating oneself over and over and over and over. People actually begin to BELIEVE the mantra, even if it was never true! LOL! :rolleyes:

Well, it's certainly easy to make this claim about yourself when you are the one's writing the books. :D

Hayes has consistently twisted the truth or outright lied about his training and qualifications. Hayes was never the first non-Japanese nor the first Westerner to train with Hatsumi-sensei. Doron Navon, Danny Waxman, Quintin Chambers, among others, trained MANY YEARS before Hayes even met Hatsumi-sensei. Both Doron and Quintin trained with Soke for YEARS, in fact, MORE YEARS, than Hayes ever did. Hayes was either lying outright (I don't know how he could not have heard about Doron) or was playing word games because "Israel is not a Western country; it's Middle Eastern." Whatever. :rolleyes: Hayes knew exactly what he was doing by playing with his words in presenting himself in his books.

STRETCHING THE TRUTH = MORE BOOKS SOLD

Secondly, given his videos showing him drawing Japanese characters and disaggregating the kanji for "ninja," I was SHOCKED to discover that Hayes DOES NOT UNDERSTAND JAPANESE!!! An average college kid with one year of Japanese would understand more of the language than Hayes did when I met him in Japan a few years ago. Again, Hayes has created an image that is far from the truth.

Finally, Hayes has earned his place in "BAD BUDO" for me, personally. This stems from outright lies to myself and others, screwing over (what is now) FOUR completely independent individuals who used to work for him at his dojo that I have happened to meet, giving rank in ryuha without holding the menkyo kaiden necessary to do so, lying about his time in Japan (confirmed from a non-Bujinkan source who knew him back then in Tokyo), and so on.

I got into some of these issues on Kutaki no Mura in the past, and would rather you read the original posts and the reactions from a Hayes supporter (http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1403&viewmode=flat&order=DESC&type=&mode=0&start=70&PHPSESSID=a695d4ea2a8953ab3dc1aba31e1167cc) than cut-and-paste them in here. Please be warned that it gets a bit bloody and resulted in the individual resigning from Kutaki (which is why the account is deleted).

There is simply no way to defend Hayes' actions. Period.

Hayes has created an air of authority that was never based on reality and he continues to bilk a significant number of people who see individuals such as myself who wield ACTUAL EVIDENCE based upon third party confirmations and first hand accounts as "evildoers", "sour grapes", or "jealous zealots."

I had EVERY intention of believing Hayes' story, but my time in Japan and my meetings with SO MANY PEOPLE both in Japan and in the U.S. who did not know each other yet still made the same assertions about Hayes' activities has clearly placed him in BAD BUDO forever, in my book.

Hayes still trains with Hatsumi, he just doesn't test for higher dan as 11+ dan are actually the same as 10 according to Soke

Jibran, please do NOT go where you are not prepared to go.

No he (Hayes) does not, he has not been to see Hatsumi in over 5 years and that is why there is a big argument going on over this, please get the facts right Jibran, this is why people scowled at you on Kutaki!!


You, too, Keikai. Hayes turned up in Japan for a day of training a few months after the original announcement. That kills the idea that it has been five years....

Still, Hayes is notorious for trips once a year and only training once. We used to call them the "tea drinking photo ops" because Hayes would run around with a camera to film his customers as a souvenir for them. Then he is off to continue his "Ninja Tour"! It's only $5,000, btw! And you can train with the self-described "Western world's foremost authority" in the mountains of Japan, rather than the globally recognized "ENTIRE WORLD'S foremost authority" in his dojo in Noda. :rolleyes:

some of the sacrifice throws were actually "thrown" (pun intended) into Kodokan Judo when Takamatsu and Kano-sensei were compatriots. This is only according to rumor and hearsay, and probably very big imaginations.

Don Roley has dispelled this rumor elsewhere (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17848&highlight=kano+takamatsu).

Please dont get hung up on ideal gossip being passed about. You willnot be banned or kicked out of the bujinkan if you train with hayes, Muramatsu, Ishizuka so please people stop worrying

Paul, you should know by now the areas in which you have expertise and the areas in which you do not. Here are my thoughts (http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1174&viewmode=flat&order=DESC&type=&mode=0&start=10&PHPSESSID=a695d4ea2a8953ab3dc1aba31e1167cc) on the subject of Soke's decision and the naming of names. Please read it and digest it. Paul is clearly giving you improper advice as a Bujinkan Shidoshi, imo.

-ben

[Dale Seago]

Hayes still trains with Hatsumi, he just doesn't test for higher dan as 11+ dan are actually the same as 10 according to Soke


Jibran, please do NOT go where you are not prepared to go.

For Jibran and others: The issue of SKH "continuing to train with Hatsumi" has been well addressed already. Additionally:

1) There is no formal testing for any grade after 5th dan.

2) Per a policy established ten years or so ago (approximate, not exact -- could have been further back), Hatsumi sensei himself doesn't promote people to 10th dan just because he happens to feel like it: It's a "committee action" requiring a letter of recommendation signed by at least 3 judan+.

Sometimes it comes as a complete surprise to the recipient, as in my case. Well, it wasn't quite one in my case, after several judan+ in a single day asked me all-too-casually, "So, are you going to be at Soke's birthday party tomorrow night?" :p

In other cases someone may be told by a senior shihan, or even by Soke himself (as happened to one of my students), that he should start collecting signatures.

3) It's totally different with 11th-15th dan. Those come from Soke only, when he feels it's appropriate.

4) I've heard the 11th-15th dan grades referred to as "levels within" 10th dan; but the fact is that the menkyo are actually written as saying 11th dan, 12th dan, etc.

[Enson]

Reminds me of a dream I had last night of me training with Soke! :love:

[lalom]

Well the second school, I believe, is down here in Tampa, FL and the "Dean" is Mark Russo. I think I might give it a try because they give free 30 day trial. It won't be for a couple months though. I'm still considering kickboxing or MT Kickboxing, but since the location of the Quest school is hard to beat it may be To Shin Do instead or maybe both ;)

These are the instructors

http://www.tampa-quest-ctr.com/teachers.htm

Mark Russo is a 7th degree BB in To-Shin Do and is ranked in BBT as well. Don't know exactly how high or not. Perhaps Mr. Seago can assist with this if he knows.

[lalom]

It is my position that if your desire is to learn ninjutsu, then do so at a reputable Bujinkan Dojo. If you desire to learn Toshindo, do so at a Quest Center.

I have heard it said that students of BBT don't learn ninjutsu either! Again, only to a select few as well.

[Dale Seago]

Mark Russo is a 7th degree BB in To-Shin Do and is ranked in BBT as well. Don't know exactly how high or not. Perhaps Mr. Seago can assist with this if he knows.

Don't recall his rank; but it's a fact that seems to be often overlooked that there actually are a number of TSD instructors who are also separately ranked as Bujinkan shidoshi.

[xen]

just a couple of quick queries (appologies for slight drift)

1. Doran Novans name came up again above. Is he still an active member of the Bujinkan? Just curious, because he's one of the 'big names from the past', does he still maintain contact with Hatsumi/Japan? Does he still run a dojo in Israel?

2. Ben, i followed the link you posted to Kutaki.. why do you (and Dale) think all this 'political baggage' occupies so much of peoples energy? It all seems to me to be the complete antithesis of the art.

[CJ]

Cool one I can answer

The reason that 'political baggage' occupies so much of peoples energy? Is alot of people that come these forums have no life outside of them. And they want to make themselves and there thoughts seem more important than they really are. The sad thing is that there are alot of people that are these forums that are sheep. And do not want to do there homework.
It is all to easy to believe the bs than it is to do the work to see if what is said is true.
And if it is said enough times alot of people will think it is true and it will not matter if it is true or not.
To much faith is put into the info that is found on the net.

[Dale Seago]

just a couple of quick queries (appologies for slight drift)

1. Doran Novans name came up again above. Is he still an active member of the Bujinkan? Just curious, because he's one of the 'big names from the past', does he still maintain contact with Hatsumi/Japan? Does he still run a dojo in Israel?

Doron Navon has retired from Bujinkan training & teaching, mainly as the result of various injuries from his previous career in Judo resurfacing to haunt him. To the best of my knowledge he is still on the most excellent of terms with Hatsumi sensei. The current senior instructor in Israel is Moti Nativ, a retired IDF lieutenant colonel.

2. Ben, i followed the link you posted to Kutaki.. why do you (and Dale) think all this 'political baggage' occupies so much of peoples energy? It all seems to me to be the complete antithesis of the art.

I'd speculate that they don't train enough. ;)

[CJ]

I'd speculate that they don't train enough. ;)
Better said sir

[SilentNightfall]

Speaking of Moti, he's giving a seminar at Papa-san's this August I hear. It should be around the time I get back from Japan. Anyone else considering a little trip to PA for this seminar? :cool:

[xen]

dale/cj;

cheers for the replies, both make equal sense.

i often rue the day i got into conversation with the lad who pointed me in the direction of this forum, don't get me wrong, i think this site is a good place to while away a lunch hour and i enjoy the forum, a good source of ideas.

but on the other side of the line, when you look at a thread like the one Ben linked to or the countless TSD/BBD threads ( :o ) it seems like such a reinforcement of negative human traits that i often hark back the pre 11/04 days when i was blissfully unaware of all the stress.

ah well, back to TSD and over to you guys.

normal service resumed :)

[Keikai]

You, too, Keikai. Hayes turned up in Japan for a day of training a few months after the original announcement. That kills the idea that it has been five years....


So apart from one day for a photo shoot, i would have been right!!! :D

[poryu]

Paul, you should know by now the areas in which you have expertise and the areas in which you do not. Here are my thoughts (http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1174&viewmode=flat&order=DESC&type=&mode=0&start=10&PHPSESSID=a695d4ea2a8953ab3dc1aba31e1167cc) on the subject of Soke's decision and the naming of names. Please read it and digest it. Paul is clearly giving you improper advice as a Bujinkan Shidoshi, imo.

-ben

Ben I wish you would stop making out you know everything that is going on.

You yourself are a prime example of spreading bad words about people - namely against me.

If your so up to date I am sure you too can confirm that hatsumi and Ishizuka are still very close and that Ishizuka does attend Hombu dojo. Also when people say to hatsumi that they have trained with ishizuka during there Japan trip they are not expelled form the Bujinkan or asked to leave the Hombu .

To quote and edit bens post
Ben is clearly giving you improper advice as a Bujinkan Shidoshi, imo

I did read all those posts on Kutaki and on other forums and I foudn them to mostly be posted by people who didnt have a clue what they were says and were mainly acting like sheep and parrots. All hearsay with no actualy 100% proven fact.

hence the problems with the internet and chinese whispers

[poryu]

So apart from one day for a photo shoot, i would have been right!!! :D


Too right you are

dont tell Ben that he wont like it

[bencole]

Ben I wish you would stop making out you know everything that is going on.

I did read all those posts on Kutaki and on other forums and I foudn them to mostly be posted by people who didnt have a clue what they were says and were mainly acting like sheep and parrots. All hearsay with no actualy 100% proven fact.

Paul, when is the last time that you've actually BEEN to Japan? :rolleyes:

Oh, perhaps I should ask: Paul, HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO JAPAN? :eek:

I'm sure most people would be very interested in your intimate discussions with Hatsumi-sensei about his personal wishes. For good measure, why don't you throw those discussions (which I assume took place in Hatsumi-sensei's native tongue) into the pot--a pot that you have (sadly for you) got me a-stirrin'.

You yourself are a prime example of spreading bad words about people - namely against me.

I'm giving you a public forum to address the concerns that people, including myself, have about you, Paul.

If you would please answer my questions about your experience in Japan and your discussions with Hatsumi-sensei about his wishes, we can lay to rest all the crazy rumors about you actually pretending to give good advice AS A SHIDOSHI UNDER HATSUMI-SENSEI about his wishes.

-ben

[Brad Ellin]

A word of warning. This is not a forum for airing dirty laundry, especially about members. Please keep it polite and respectful.

[Krum]

Does this much bickering and mud-slinging happen in all Martial Arts or is it just us lot?

[Keikai]

Its just us because its such a small martial arts world!!!

[Brad Ellin]

No, it happens all over. We just notice our involvement more, because it's our house.

But, guys, if you have issues with each other, here is not the place to air them. PM or better yet, email. Heck, even better, if you can, have a beer together and get it sorted out.

[lalom]

Too many trying to build a name as an authority on all this stuff using forums like this. It happens on all the other forums as well.

Need more gentlemen like Mr. Seago. Respectful. Doesn't argue as to who is more knowledgeable. Doesn't argue as to who or who hasn't gone to Japan. Ranked in the "nosebleed" section so he doesn't have to prove himself to anyone. A leader and has earned his respect the "classy" way.

So Mr. Seago, after all that can a get a break on fees at your dojo? :)

[snake_plisskin]

Hey all:

Is this thread about Toshindo? Was there an original question someone was trying to answer?

Ben: excellent point regarding what I said. I read the link you provided and found it gives evidence to strongly support the debunking of the alleged judo/bt link. And, thank you for keeping my quote in context.

However, the BIGGEST problem is not only what I wrote, but that they were based on a SECONDARY SOURCE.

Although I may have qualified what I said, what I did was a Cardinal Sin of Writing, because readers will tend to compartmentalize information, willingly or subconsciously, tossing out or reshaping things to fit their message.

In my case, I brought up information without doing a proper search, and relied on (notoriously unreliable) secondary sources. In effect, even WITH a "qualification", the person reading what I wrote isn't going to tell others, "Well, this guy Snake noted that it's probably rumor or BS or someone's imagination..." before they repeat the rest.

And, the temptation to repeat what I wrote without my qualifying statements is great. Many people could use my words out of context and so further skewer the truth. Ben did me the courtesy of keeping my words in context and helping me learn something; not everyone, I imagine, would treat my words so courteously.

That being said....

Beers at my place, gentlemen.

--Snake

[CJ]

Hey all:



That being said....

Beers at my place, gentlemen.

--Snake
What ya got sir

[xen]

Hey all:

Is this thread about Toshindo? Was there an original question someone was trying to answer?



this is true, but the thread has been revived from some time ago and some good posts are being made, (even if the thread boundary has got a little blurry).

where the posts are good, they're damn good, but where they're not they're awful :rolleyes:


Although I may have qualified what I said, what I did was a Cardinal Sin of Writing, because readers will tend to compartmentalize information, willingly or subconsciously, tossing out or reshaping things to fit their message.



'tis also very true :)

we are all susceptible to remembering selectively, combine that with the simple truth that we each interpret individually and things can get very messy very quickly :D



That being said....

Beers at my place, gentlemen.

--Snake

now thats a damn good idea, shame its a few thousand miles too far away :rolleyes:

ah well, snake, i've got a bottle of stella in the fridge i've been saving *virtual cheers* have a good evening :D

[snake_plisskin]

Well, CJ and Xen, truth be told, all I have right now is a case of "Spend all day Sunday Working on My Car" Molson in bottles. However, you're always welcome to bring over a few pints of whatever fine brew meets your tastes.

For now, here's a virtual toast-to-be, gentlemen.

--Snakehead River

**And I have enjoyed the way this thread has gone--even if I was one of the people who contributed to the "awful" portion of the earlier business :eek: !

[CJ]

Well, CJ and Xen, truth be told, all I have right now is a case of "Spend all day Sunday Working on My Car" Molson in bottles. However, you're always welcome to bring over a few pints of whatever fine brew meets your tastes.

For now, here's a virtual toast-to-be, gentlemen.

--Snakehead River

**And I have enjoyed the way this thread has gone--even if I was one of the people who contributed to the "awful" portion of the earlier business :eek: !
I got a toast that might work as well
May Hatsumi never come on here and answer some of the dumb questions that are posted on here from time to time. :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Dale Seago]

I got a toast that might work as well
May Hatsumi never come on here and answer some of the dumb questions that are posted on here from time to time. :D :D :D :D :D :D

Och aye, an' I'll surely drink tae that!!!

[Keikai]

May Hatsumi never come on here


Maybe not but i bet he knows this site and others like ebudo exist, referring to a post by Ben Cole previously about the internet and his conversation with Soke about the internet and the way it is used and perceived, is it such a bad thing?

How many buyu have you met and got to know on the internet that you may not have know otherwise, and what info have you got off here?

[Lord Spooky]

Have to admit if it wasn't for MAP I wouldn't be training in the Bujinkan.

[Keikai]

So there you go, is the internet really a bad thing?

Obviously when you get stupid questions like "who will be the next soke?" then they speak for themselves but even the arguments are good, we have had some corkers on here but at the end of the day its like a marriage!! we argue, we make up, no harm done!!

Its like this To Shin do arguement now, is it really doing Hayes any damage, although he is not a part of the Buj any more he is still recognised as a good teacher and all this is advertising for him and there is no such thing as bad advertising, its all advertising!! ;)

Others get a rougher ride, Fuma ryu, BBD etc but then its survival of the fittest.

[poryu]

Paul, when is the last time that you've actually BEEN to Japan? :rolleyes:

Oh, perhaps I should ask: Paul, HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO JAPAN? :eek:

I'm sure most people would be very interested in your intimate discussions with Hatsumi-sensei about his personal wishes. For good measure, why don't you throw those discussions (which I assume took place in Hatsumi-sensei's native tongue) into the pot--a pot that you have (sadly for you) got me a-stirrin'.



I'm giving you a public forum to address the concerns that people, including myself, have about you, Paul.

If you would please answer my questions about your experience in Japan and your discussions with Hatsumi-sensei about his wishes, we can lay to rest all the crazy rumors about you actually pretending to give good advice AS A SHIDOSHI UNDER HATSUMI-SENSEI about his wishes.

-ben

HI ben

as you are one for spreading very bad rumours and Mr K has asked us not to air our dirty washing in public how about you and I have a chat face to face about such matters. I do believe you intend on visiting the UK very soon. We can discuss this matter in private and also the little matter we last discussed between ourselevs where I threatened you with legal action

Just let me know when your over here and I will come visit you for a very private discussion where we can sort this out between ourselves.

[bencole]

I do believe you intend on visiting the UK very soon.

I have no plans to be in the U.K. anytime soon. I have no problem in meeting with you should I ever be across the pond.

as you are one for spreading very bad rumours and Mr K has asked us not to air our dirty washing in public how about you and I have a chat face to face about such matters. We can discuss this matter in private and also the little matter we last discussed between ourselevs where I threatened you with legal action

LOL!

That's very convenient, Paul. DON'T ANSWER THE QUESTIONS. :rolleyes:

I'm not "airing dirty laundry." I simply asked you to provide some sort of PROOF for the basis of your advice to Bujinkan people to go against Soke's wishes.

I can provide you with all the proof I can muster.

You, however, cannot.

So, to deflect my inquiry, which CAN ONLY LEAD to a loss of reputation for you, you raise some childish over-reaction ON YOUR PART to words that YOU USED in a thread on a different board a couple of years ago. I agree with the moderators that THAT should remain outside this conversation (Granted, I have PDFs somewhere of that conversation and am willing to share them with interested parties. It will not be very flattering for you, I must admit.)

Setting aside your attempts to derail my probe, it is not "dirty laundry" to request that you CLARIFY YOUR EXPERTISE on Soke's wishes.

Once again, HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO JAPAN? And, HAVE YOU EVER HAD INTIMATE CONVERSATIONS WITH SOKE ABOUT THESE ISSUES?

If not, then on what basis are you making your claims and giving advice?

You are as ill-informed on this issue as Jibran Kwan is, and so clarifying this point, or more to the fact, ASKING YOU TO CLARIFY YOUR BASIS OF YOUR ADVICE, is NOT "dirty laundry."

None of the moderators should have cause to lock this thread or consider these questions "laundry." This is no more a "laundry issue" than when I slap Jibran on the hand for piping in his ill-informed advice.

The only difference I see is that Jibran actually has been man enough to admit when he has over-stepped his boundaries.

It is not "spreading very bad rumours" for me to ask you to comment on those rumors. YOU are the person about whom the rumors are circulating. So I am providing YOU with an open forum to dispel any of these evil rumors that I may be suggesting through my inquiry.

Would you care to dispel the rumors? Or should we construe your evasion as confirmation of those rumors?

-ben

[Brad Ellin]

While I am all for clearing the air, let's keep this thread on topic. As long as things remain within ToS, no cause to lock the thread.

[CJ]

[QUOTE=Keikai]So there you go, is the Internet really a bad thing?

QUOTE]
I am with you the Internet can be a great thing. But the problem is that.
When I first came on here I got ragged on because of not reading older post before I posted and some what rightly so.
And yes there are cool people that post on here like Dale, Ben, and god help me Grim.

BUT!
There to many that post on here that want to live in this lalalalal land of what they saw on t.v. as a kid or even as an adult. And post things like If Bruce lee was a live today could he beat up Ken Shamrock.
Or some thing like that. Or these style VS style BS.
Here is a thought to those people. Goggle the art that you think you might like. Turn off the computer, step away from the computer and go to that art if it is close. And you make up your own mind instead of wasting time and your own life on the computer all the time.
Martial art is for those that want to train and do so. Not the ones that sit and whine about this art is better than that art. Alot of those people I am sure have very little or no mat time at all. But yet want to be taken as gods on a forum. That they can hide on, because no one will know if you are over weight, slow or what have you. As long as you can type some words together someone will read it.
And take it as law, kind of sad huh.
Now I am not perfect far from it, but come on.
I think Ron white said it best. And this is for those that post those Style vs Style posts.
"Next time you have a thought, Let it go"
From his video (you can't fix stupid)

[CJ]

Sorry Mr. K about going off topic

[Connovar]

Acknowledging the fact that I havent seen or talked to Steve or Rumi Hayes in 10 years or so I dont know what the current politics are all spurred up about. However for the 10+ years that I knew him he was always an upstanding person and a first class instructor. Having seen him actually take out an armed assailant for real (1982) I can say rarely have I seen a large man move that fast and that hard. Given that, I would glady have him cover my back in a bar fight.

If people want to call him a fraud or liar etc they should at least have enough cajones to tell it to him face to face, but most will rather hide behind their monitors.

These x-kan politics dont do any of the subsystems any good. In fact they usually degrade the system as a whole.

[benkyoka]

As cool as it is that people like Ben can have private conversations with Soke about his wishes, they remain private. That means that although you and Soke had great talks, they were meant for you alone and not for the masses. If Soke wants everyone in the Bujinkan to do something he should make his wishes public. Another drawback to people having these private conversations is that we don't have to believe that person just because they 'say' they have spoken to Soke about certain issues.

As an example, there was/is this debate going around that Soke doesn't want anyone training with people such as Hayes, Ishizuka, etc. But the person that made that announcement wasn't Soke. A friend of mine, who has trained in the Bujinkan for over 2 decades and used to reside in Japan during the 80s and has a good relationship with Soke still, was told by Nagato sensei that Soke said we are not to train with Ishizuka. My friend thought that he should hear this from Soke himself, so went around to Soke's house and they ended up going to dinner together. He asked Soke straight up about training with Ishizuka and Soke didn't say he couldn't train there. Soke did say that Ishizuka has not been practicing with Soke very much in the last decade and that the Bujinkan is at such a high level now.

So, is that a definite 'no'? People will say that the Japanese rarely say things directly and this is as close to a 'no' as we will get. Personally, I feel that is misleading. Unfortunately for Ishizuka sensei in the last decade he has been very busy. His responsibilities as a deputy fire chief as well as his dedication to his music and band, as well as the fact that Soke's classes are scheduled only 3 days a week that make it hard for him to make it hasn't helped Ishizuka's cause. Does this mean that he can't teach us anything?

I think Soke's level in the last decade has evolved, for sure. (Even though I am probably not qualified to make that judgement) I also think that most practitioners of the Bujinkan have NOT evolved like Soke has, simply because we don't have his experiences. Ishizuka is not a bad teacher to learn from if you are not at Soke's level, which includes every single one of us.

[bencole]

As cool as it is that people like Ben can have private conversations with Soke about his wishes, they remain private. That means that although you and Soke had great talks, they were meant for you alone and not for the masses. If Soke wants everyone in the Bujinkan to do something he should make his wishes public.

The announcements I have made publicly, I have done so because Soke wanted those announcements made.

I am *VERY* aware of what Soke wants me to speak about and NOT speak about, and I am *VERY* conscious of the implications of what I am saying.

I'm still trying to figure out the basis of Paul's pronouncements....

-ben

[kouryuu]

I have no plans to be in the U.K. anytime soon. I have no problem in meeting with you should I ever be across the pond.



LOL!

That's very convenient, Paul. DON'T ANSWER THE QUESTIONS. :rolleyes:

I'm not "airing dirty laundry." I simply asked you to provide some sort of PROOF for the basis of your advice to Bujinkan people to go against Soke's wishes.

I can provide you with all the proof I can muster.

You, however, cannot.

So, to deflect my inquiry, which CAN ONLY LEAD to a loss of reputation for you, you raise some childish over-reaction ON YOUR PART to words that YOU USED in a thread on a different board a couple of years ago. I agree with the moderators that THAT should remain outside this conversation (Granted, I have PDFs somewhere of that conversation and am willing to share them with interested parties. It will not be very flattering for you, I must admit.)

Setting aside your attempts to derail my probe, it is not "dirty laundry" to request that you CLARIFY YOUR EXPERTISE on Soke's wishes.

Once again, HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO JAPAN? And, HAVE YOU EVER HAD INTIMATE CONVERSATIONS WITH SOKE ABOUT THESE ISSUES?

If not, then on what basis are you making your claims and giving advice?

You are as ill-informed on this issue as Jibran Kwan is, and so clarifying this point, or more to the fact, ASKING YOU TO CLARIFY YOUR BASIS OF YOUR ADVICE, is NOT "dirty laundry."

None of the moderators should have cause to lock this thread or consider these questions "laundry." This is no more a "laundry issue" than when I slap Jibran on the hand for piping in his ill-informed advice.

The only difference I see is that Jibran actually has been man enough to admit when he has over-stepped his boundaries.

It is not "spreading very bad rumours" for me to ask you to comment on those rumors. YOU are the person about whom the rumors are circulating. So I am providing YOU with an open forum to dispel any of these evil rumors that I may be suggesting through my inquiry.

Would you care to dispel the rumors? Or should we construe your evasion as confirmation of those rumors?

-ben

Just to reiterate Ben, at Ayase last night Hatsumi said out loud and to everybody,"don't train with people who don't train with me", personally i think that says it all, if a teacher has never been to Japan then DON'T train with them, simple really!.

[Big Will]

Just to reiterate Ben, at Ayase last night Hatsumi said out loud and to everybody,"don't train with people who don't train with me", personally i think that says it all, if a teacher has never been to Japan then DON'T train with them, simple really!.

I don't think it can get any clearer than that!!!

[Dale Seago]

Hey, Normski-san,

I was really looking forward to training with you and shouting you a brew or few next week in Noda, but it's not happening due to my job situation and I'm going to have to "eat" the nonrefundable plane ticket. Maybe later in the year.

On the plus side, two black belts just returned from Japan and have confirmed that I'm right on target on where I've been taking my folks' training.

[Keikai]

I was really looking forward to training with you and shouting you a brew or few next week in Noda.

A brew? Norm needs Champagne dont you Norm!!!! ;) :D

[Keikai]

These x-kan politics dont do any of the subsystems any good. In fact they usually degrade the system as a whole.

But where would you get information like that, how can you judge at any point, what reflection discussions like this have as an impact on the arts?

How does this discussion degrade the system as a whole? does it mean our training get worse? please explain.

Also is Bujinkan and the other 2 xkans subsystems or does that just lie with schools like the Toshindo and BBD etc, i see Bujinkan as THE system not a subsystem.

[hatsie]

Hey, Normski-san,

I was really looking forward to training with you and shouting you a brew or few next week in Noda, but it's not happening due to my job situation and I'm going to have to "eat" the nonrefundable plane ticket. Maybe later in the year.

On the plus side, two black belts just returned from Japan and have confirmed that I'm right on target on where I've been taking my folks' training.


i'd have loved to have met up with you dale, teach you how to drink and work on your scottish accent :eek: , perhaps i did meet your students though ? :confused:

for what it's worth, the shindenfudoryu dakentaijutsu tape from soke by quest, is exactly what i did for 12 days!(or more correctly, what i tried to emulate,lol)
study study study!

with the exception of nagato sensie who is(has been asked to) teaching another school, which is cool.

darren

[bencole]

Just to reiterate Ben, at Ayase last night Hatsumi said out loud and to everybody,"don't train with people who don't train with me", personally i think that says it all, if a teacher has never been to Japan then DON'T train with them, simple really!.

Poryu-san....

-ben

[benkyoka]

Just to reiterate Ben, at Ayase last night Hatsumi said out loud and to everybody,"don't train with people who don't train with me", personally i think that says it all, if a teacher has never been to Japan then DON'T train with them, simple really!.

Hatsumi has left Japan, as everyone should know. As recently as 2003 as well. So those people who trained with Hatsumi at the Tai Kai in 2003, and received their 5th dan and teaching license are people we shouldn't train with? (This is me enjoying the role of devil's advocate)

Or what about Johnny Shidoshi who went to Japan for the first time last year and passed the godan test. He has trained with Soke for a total of 4 to 6 hours (if he stayed for one week). So it's okay to train with him? What if he can't make it back for another week and 4 hours with Soke the next year, should I find a new teacher for that year? Maybe I could just jump back and forth and train with the latest person to spend a week in Japan. Then I'll be up to 'current standards'.

[saru1968]

I think the idea about the training in japan issue is more about being current with Soke's teachings.

I trained at Honbu for the first time last September and it showed me how much more i have to learn and how little i really know but i did pick up on how people were moving if that makes sense.

Now i can 'see' this way of moving back home, normally from people who regularly train in Japan.

I'm sure there are talented and very able Instructors but if they have not trained or been training under someone who is current with Soke's teachings.

In the last five years how much of this movement are they missing?

I can't explain it clearer than that from my understanding at present, thats just the way i see it.

:-)

[2E0WHN]

So for all those that have not trained with Soke means that some people can not enter their own dojo? Has soke made a time limit on this perhaps? A few months, years... Ever?

[saru1968]

I'm confused and i think i miss that one ?

[Enson]

From the way it was explained to me from my instructors was Soke said, "if you want to learn Hayes' Taijutsu learn from Hayes, if you want to learn my Taijutsu learn from me."

So now let me put it this way. Unless you are learning directly under Soke you are not learning exactly what Soke knows but someone else's Taijutsu that learned from Soke if you are that lucky. Me personally have an instructor who is learning from a Shihan who travels to Japan but also trains under Arnaud who trains under Soke. So how far from the source are we really getting... those of use that don't make it to Soke's classes? As most of us know Shihan Hayes did actually train with Soke on a pretty regular basis. At least you know that you are not learning a translation of a translation of a translation. Watered down..? Maybe. Does it bother me? NO.

So does Shihan Hayes know more than most of us on this board? Yes! Is he Soke? No. But, who are we really to say? "Well I spoke with Soke and he told me to keep this a secret but I'm telling the whole world on this forum"... sounds shakey to me.

[hatsie]

with so many good instructors around the globe, particularly australia, uk and america, how hard is it to find a place to train with a 'japan training shidoshi' or shihan?

if your teacher has not been in the last 5 yrs or so, or if possible never been!!!!!!!!

don't you think you could be doing better?


i trained in a crap school in sydney for a while, the head teacher 'sensei r' was really talked up and sucked up to by his junior instructors and their brainwashed students,although he hadn't been to japan for about 15 yrs
. all it took was for me to hop on a plane and visit soke to see the difference for myself, it was not a small difference either!.

these people tend to keep a very strict class, lots of bowing and sensei this and that, and no relaxed free talk.. why do you think that might be?

as my virtual amigo puts it 'whole life, one choice'

[Cuchulain]

Hmm, the same issue rises again.

It always amazes me that people seem to want to be told what to do, and don't want to use their brains to understand the reasoning behind these issues. Soke has regularly said (while I have been in earshot) "Don't train with people who don't train with me, even if they say they are my students."

On other occasions, he has clarified that further, adding that "If you can't train with me, train with people who do." Norman has posted in this thread that as recently as this week, he reiterated this point, although he seems to have left out the disclaimer about training with people who do train with him - he may have changed his mind – that’s his prerogative.

Personally, I don't think that it's necessary to demonise shidoshi who don't train in Japan AS LONG AS they are committed to their training and circumstances beyond their control prevent them from making the trip. If, say for family reasons they just can't travel, then as long as they are staying current in their training by attending seminars and training with someone who regularly visits Japan, then I think that's probably okay.

In this day, going to Japan is easy though and I would be quite suspicious of someone who teaches who hasn't gone. All you need to do is save the fees you receive for teaching, offer some seminars and in a year or so, you should have the cost of the trip. If that doesn’t raise enough money, increase your fees – you aren't charging enough.

Again, I appreciate that sometimes life gets in the way, and that's understandable, but you can’t have your cake and eat it. If you haven’t been and you are a shidoshi, you should be planning your first trip now, even if that means you won’t make it there until 2007. The shidoshi rank is as much a responsibility as it is a privilege.

However, and this is the crux of my post, it doesn't matter what I think, or what you think. This martial art belongs in an absolute sense to Hatsumi Sensei - if he says that tomorrow we should all be wearing pink tutus, then pink tutus it is, or there's the door. If he chooses to restrict training to a smaller group of people, then it’s his call, and none of us have a right to training. It’s all done at his discretion, and if he chooses to withdraw that privilege, then that’s his right.

There are back and forth arguments here and elsewhere about what was and wasn’t said – and it’s really irrelevant. What’s important isn’t who said what to who. What is important is the message and its meaning. Ask yourself whether you think it’s likely that Hatsumi Sensei would encourage well intentioned practitioners to train with people who can’t be bothered to train with the Soke?

The purpose of this public message from Hatsumi Sensei was to encourage people who had stopped training with him as of 2004 to come back into the fold. In the case of the prominent Japanese Shihan mentioned earlier in this thread, it worked and I was personally thrilled to see him return to the hombu. He has continued to put in time there over the last few years, so it was a good thing.

In the case of Mr Hayes, it seems he doesn’t care. That’s his prerogative, but . . .

Hatsumi Sensei does not strike me as a petty man, merely someone who takes his responsibilities as Soke very seriously. I doubt he cares very much about all this – he just wants people to commit to training with him. If they can’t or won’t then the Bujinkan is much much bigger than any individual or their vision of how they think training should be done.

[hatsie]

The guy who runs Tampa Quest Center has a story about going to japan and taken the test for 5th "degree" blackbelt with Hatsumi so he must be recognized...


YEP i read it and smiled, it seems he shares the same inventive imagination his teacher has regarding training.

'after comming out of the crapper, i walked into the dojo. all the students formed a line in seiza, "he is waiting for you" a whisper said'

(star trek, possibly a klingon ritual)

'everybody cheering and clapping loudly, skh yelling out ALRIGHT!!!, hatsumi sensei standing around with a big grin on his face and tossing the sword away at no one in particular'

(watched the karate kid too many times" they'l be talking about that last kick for years")

[poryu]

Just to reiterate Ben, at Ayase last night Hatsumi said out loud and to everybody,"don't train with people who don't train with me", personally i think that says it all, if a teacher has never been to Japan then DON'T train with them, simple really!.

HI

as ben has asked me to comment. I would like to ask this

During this announcement was Ishizukas name mentioned or was it not.

I have discussed this topic this week with soemone very very close to both Ishizuka and Hatsumi and that person has assured me that Ishizuka is not on a banned list and does in fact train in the hombu under Hatsumi.

As for Ben asking about my time in Japan, he did recieve a reply via PM, one which may have taken him by surprise.

I would like to point out that Ben Cole can not in any way no matter how much he tries destroy my reputation, if he wishes to try he can, I dont really care what he attempts, as long as it is legal. One thng i have discovered as I grow older is that I no longer care to physically fight my battles I have lawyers who do it for me now, and they are very good at winning.

[bencole]

as ben has asked me to comment. I would like to ask this

Well, seeing how I have asked multiple times, your first obligation is to publicly TELL US THE BASIS OF YOUR ADVICE THE OTHER DAY.

It doesn't matter if you've spoken with people AFTER you've given advice in some sort of attempt to create validation for yourself. (Moreover, asking an Ishizuka student whether it is okay to train with him is the same as asking the fox to guard the henhouse). LOL! :rolleyes: Please try to keep it real, Paul....

The fact is that, like Jibran in other threads (sorry, Jibran), you GAVE ADVICE, which goes directly against Soke's wishes, WITHOUT ANY PROPER BASIS.

As for Ben asking about my time in Japan, he did recieve a reply via PM

You were not giving advice via PM. You were giving it HERE...PUBLICLY...AS A JUDAN (cough, cough).

I have openly questioned IN THE SAME FORUM your advice and asked for clarification.

You STILL REFUSE to make a public statement and instead childishly hint at legal threats and the like.

I would like to point out that Ben Cole can not in any way no matter how much he tries destroy my reputation

I think you've done a pretty good job of that yourself, Paul. The only thing that I have done is ask questions that make you squirm (as evidenced by your threats and your attempts to avoid taking responsibility for yourself).

I shake my head at what your students must think of their newly minted Judan instructor who is not man enough to admit his mistakes, take his knocks like a good student here, and climb onto an airplane for 400 quid to train with his supposed "teacher." Instead, you run and hide, seek validation after the fact, and puff out your chest with threats of legal action.

And to think, in the past, you have openly criticized Bujinkan instructors on other boards for their skills and knowledge of the Bujinkan arts.

Day by day, you continue to reveal how truly little you understand about Hatsumi-sensei's art, in my personal BIASED opinion.

I'm sorry that you feel threatened by choices that YOU'VE MADE in the past and present, Paul.

I will not apologize for asking difficult questions of you, a JUDAN UNDER HATSUMI-SENSEI, in a public forum when YOU, AS A JUDAN UNDER HATSUMI-SENSEI, feel the need to advise against Soke's own wishes on a public forum.

The purpose of this public message from Hatsumi Sensei was to encourage people who had stopped training with him as of 2004 to come back into the fold.

I agree with this interpretation, and have stated as much in my BujinMag (http://www.bujinmag.com) article on the subject, entitled "Taijutsu 103: The Good Uke."

By making such announcements, Soke is admonishing us to stay current with his teachings, and is guiding students (even "Senior Japanese Shihan", "Run-and-Hide English Judan" and "Self-proclaimed American Grandmasters") who have strayed from the path that Soke desires we tread.

-ben

[Nick Mandilas]

You were giving it HERE...PUBLICLY...AS A JUDAN (cough, cough).


You know I can't enter this debate because I have never met Soke, I am not high ranked, and I do pay much attention to Booj politics...I find them to effect people's training.

But I will ask this, do you think Soke would like his high ranked students resorting to comments like the above over such trivial BS? Slagging off each other publicly with such low blows as a go at a guy's rank? A rank given by Soke, yes?

Or to sit there yelling out threats of legal action and the like.

Why are you guys doing this? What lesson do you think you are giving low ranked guys like me...sigh...I don't know guys...this stuff seems to starting down foolish paths. And over a really stupid topic anyway.

[K0koro]

Guys this is doing no one any good, let alone the Bujinkan in general.

Comments that have been posted by either party should be looked at to see if they have caused an embarresment to Soke.

Ben hate to say it but the comment you came out with
AS A JUDAN (cough, cough).

does on the computer screen come across as you not liking what Soke has done in promoting Paul. Soke has his reasons why he promotes anyone and as head of the Bujinkan that is his perogative. If that is not what you meant then my apologies but seeing as we only get to read the words and have to guess the real meaning behind the words sometimes things get misunderstood.

As on a previous thread, the real issue comes down to who you trust, especially when you get different Judan giving different messages. Cross checking is always the best option.

Bows out and goes back to sleep. Happy Easter guys

[benkyoka]

Thank you, zenpokaiten, for that long and, might I add, completely useless post. Obviously you have some dislike for Mr. Richardson over some things he has said concerning you or your training that you didn't like. Tough, deal with it. You seem to side with Mr. Cole. Bravo. You'll go far. Just be sure to drop his name from time to time. This thread has become about training with Soke, or training with someone who trains with Soke, yet you learn from video from a guy who hasn't trained with Soke in years. How is your opinion relevant to the topic being discussed?

I certainly feel bad for Ishizuka sensei. He has trained with Soke longer than many of us have been alive. He has offered up his home and dojo so people can come to Japan and train. He teaches freely from the information he has. Then some Gaijin steals his training notes, then another videotapes the lessons and sells copies on ebay. Then Ishizuka's job conflicts with Soke's training schedule. His passion for music takes time away from his training with Soke. People show up to train at his dojo regularly and then go to classes with other senior teachers who say we can't train with him. He retired from his work and now attends Soke's classes, but it's not good enough for some people who heard this 'mandate' from someone who heard it from someone who is not Soke.

What a mess this has become.

[2E0WHN]

Can a moderator close this thread as this bitching is not productive to budo and MAP in general. Basically, I think no one really cares about this tiff between Paul and Ben. So can it be closed so we can discuss something more worthy on MAP.

[Brad Ellin]

How about I delete every post, except the first one? Then, we can go back to the original topic of discussion.

I think K0koro summed it up pretty good

"Comments that have been posted by either party should be looked at to see if they have caused an embarresment to Soke."

And not just either of the two current parties, but everybody that posts here.

[bencole]

Slagging off each other publicly with such low blows as a go at a guy's rank? A rank given by Soke, yes?

Ben hate to say it but the comment you came out with

> AS A JUDAN (cough, cough).

does on the computer screen come across as you not liking what Soke has done in promoting Paul. Soke has his reasons why he promotes anyone and as head of the Bujinkan that is his perogative. If that is not what you meant then my apologies but seeing as we only get to read the words and have to guess the real meaning behind the words sometimes things get misunderstood.

That cough was to Paul, who clearly does not understand his RESPONSIBILITIES as a Judan.

Soke will continue to promote anyone and everyone that he desires, and I have posted in length in other threads about what are the bases of those ranks. Naturally, I have no "problem" with Soke promoting anyone he wishes.

But as a Judan, Paul's responsibility TO SOKE has increased dramatically. I clearly feel that he has not lived up to that responsibility.

But I will ask this, do you think Soke would like his high ranked students resorting to comments like the above over such trivial BS?

What precisely is "trivial"? Training with the "correct people" is an admonishment that Soke repeats over and over and over. Being mindful of Soke's wishes AS A JUDAN is *NOT TRIVIAL*. It comes with the territory.

I apologize if people thought that my cough was directed at Soke. Naturally, it was not. It was directed at a man who has failed Soke, in my personal assessment.

-ben

[kouryuu]

Hey, Normski-san,

I was really looking forward to training with you and shouting you a brew or few next week in Noda, but it's not happening due to my job situation and I'm going to have to "eat" the nonrefundable plane ticket. Maybe later in the year.

On the plus side, two black belts just returned from Japan and have confirmed that I'm right on target on where I've been taking my folks' training.

Hi Daleski, what a shame, i was looking forward to meeting, training AND sharing that brew with you, i'll be back in the first 3 weeks in October if that helps.

I don't think you have any worries about where you're taking your students, i would be honoured to be one of them.

[kouryuu]

From Zenpokaiten;
Quote" I believe Shihan VanDonk is in Japan at the current time training with Soke until the 17th?" Unquote.

He turned up to the Friday night class and we've not seen him since, he's not been at Nagato's, Noguchi's or Someya's, and speaking to people who have trained with the other Shihans they don't recall seeing him. ;)

[zenpokaiten]

He turned up to the Friday night class and we've not seen him since, Regardless of the number of times he has showed up the point is he showed up to train with Soke so this comment is out the door.
yet you learn from video from a guy who hasn't trained with Soke in years.Personally, I dont keep tabs on the guy but I believe they also train with Soke Machida? But I know for a fact that on this certain trip they also brought the students sight seeing, as many also like to do those things when visiting somewhere they have never been. Keep your eyes posted perhaps you will see him again? You can let everyone on MAP know about what all the Shihan are saying, and just exactly their opinion on Richard.

[Kikaku]

Regardless of the number of times he has showed up the point is he showed up to train with Soke so this comment is out the door.
.

Actually it could be considered a "token visit" for credibility.

[Kikaku]

Hi Daleski, what a shame, i was looking forward to meeting, training AND sharing that brew with you, i'll be back in the first 3 weeks in October if that helps.

I don't think you have any worries about where you're taking your students, i would be honoured to be one of them.

Norm,
I'm gonna be there in October, even if it means going on my own.
The only thing which could stop me would be work :o

[hatsie]

Actually it could be considered a "token visit" for credibility.

well thats exactly what it is for his students, they get to spend their five grand token on a cup of ocha and a photo, before heading up to the secret ninja stomping ground.

yee ha!(cha ching, sound of a cash register open/closing) :D

[kouryuu]

well thats exactly what it is for his students, they get to spend their five grand token on a cup of ocha and a photo, before heading up to the secret ninja stomping ground.

yee ha!(cha ching, sound of a cash register open/closing) :D

I'm not saying a word!!!!!!!

[benkyoka]

Yes I believe this was also discussed about my method of training so how is that relevant? I believe Shihan VanDonk is in Japan at the current time training with Soke until the 17th?

I would like to publicly apologize to zenpokaiten for overstepping some lines and not doing my homework before posting. Mr. Zenpo (or is it Mr. Kaiten? ;) ) I was posting under the impression that your video course came from Stephen Hayes, and because I didn't look into your previous posts to verify this error, I ended up making an ass out of myself (ass me, where's the u? Nope, it's just me)

Again, I apologize, and remember we probably shouldn't take all this too seriously, especially my posts, which have now been proven to be factually inaccurate. But the second paragraph of my post still stands...

[bencole]

Then Ishizuka's job conflicts with Soke's training schedule. His passion for music takes time away from his training with Soke. People show up to train at his dojo regularly and then go to classes with other senior teachers who say we can't train with him. He retired from his work and now attends Soke's classes, but it's not good enough for some people who heard this 'mandate' from someone who heard it from someone who is not Soke.

I wish it were as simple as you describe.... If the situation garnered Soke's concern, it is more "complex" than you make it out to be.

I lived most of the 1990s in Japan. By the time I left Japan in August 2000, I had only SEEN Ishizuka twice. That's two times. Dos veces. Ni kai. Liang ci.

Let's just say that I am glad to hear that Ishizuka is back training with Soke. Tying this back to the topic, it would be good to hear that SKH was also "back" as well.

May all your choices be good ones....

-ben

[zenpokaiten]

I would like to publicly apologize to zenpokaiten for overstepping some lines and not doing my homework before posting. Mr. Zenpo (or is it Mr. Kaiten? ) I was posting under the impression that your video course came from Stephen Hayes, and because I didn't look into your previous posts to verify this error, I ended up making an ass out of myself (ass me, where's the u? Nope, it's just me) No worries, by now I am used to getting slapped around a bit for doing home study. I am well aware that it is not the best path, but I have fun and thats what matters to me. I aplogize to anyone else that I have offended.

well thats exactly what it is for his students, they get to spend their five grand token on a cup of ocha and a photo, before heading up to the secret ninja stomping ground.

yee ha!(cha ching, sound of a cash register open/closingAs I said before I do not have the time to defend Vandonk. I do not keep tabs on him, nor do I care to defend him. You all seem to have your opinion on the guy so I am not going to tell you that you are not allowed to think that way. I believe the trip is 3 grand not 5? But you would know better since you seem to keep a close eye on these things. Just out of curiosity what is the trip supposed to run? Many that have never been there decide to go with Richard because they want to learn there way around before going on there own.

Actually it could be considered a "token visit" for credibility.
Shinobi Phoneix I think once again you are making statements that you have read off of this forum, and others. I really think you need to form your own opinion of such things. And to speak frankly if you feel this way about Shihan Richard do not buy his videos, or sign up over at his forum.

[hatsie]

As I said before I do not have the time to defend Vandonk. I do not keep tabs on him, nor do I care to defend him. You all seem to have your opinion on the guy so I am not going to tell you that you are not allowed to think that way. I believe the trip is 3 grand not 5?


well i was converting that figure into aussie dollars. how much should it cost? well that is relative really isn't it?
but,

however after 12 full on days of training every class availible,(between 2 and 3) going out every night till around 5am and shouting plenty of beer. eating well and staying in good accom. i came in at about $4500 aud($2200usd?)

as it seems with the current trip ,RICH van donk has taken his students to one class, hello! ONE, ICHI, UNO!

the temples etc are as good as free, but .
the b.s seems to come at a higher price

also theb.b. h.s.c sucks if you feel you could learn from that load of ruff edited crap power to you.

GOOD LUCK IN FINDING A TEACHER.

[zenpokaiten]

however after 12 full on days of training every class availible,(between 2 and 3) going out every night till around 5am and shouting plenty of beer. eating well and staying in good accom. i came in at about $4500 aud($2200usd?)Thanks on the info.

as it seems with the current trip ,**** van donk has taken his students to one class, hello! ONE, ICHI, UNO!Dont know what to say to that besides I cannot comment for Shihan Richard.

also theb.b. h.s.c sucks if you feel you could learn from that load of ruff edited crap power to you. I dont feel anything besides having fun in what I am doing. But thank you for stating your opinion.


GOOD LUCK IN FINDING A TEACHER Thanks

[saru1968]

'also theb.b. h.s.c sucks if you feel you could learn from that load of ruff edited crap power to you.'


To be totally fair most of us know the best way to learn is via a Dojo in lesson with an Instructor.
In the Uk even if you are in the middle of nowhere you could find a Dojo to travel to but and this is the but for me.

Other places whose land mass is larger then the middle of nowhere can indeed create problems. Now if one has access to a car or a rail link then one could make infrequent trips if the distance was indeed great. I'm not talking about less than 200 miles though as that is achievable.

But if there is no option then Home study would be better than nowt in my opinion.

Its would be easy for me to say Home study is crap, get yourself into a real Dojo when i can access 5 Bujinkan Dojos within 50 miles of my location although i regularly travel 210 miles each way to learn from my Instructor( what can i say, the soup's good).

No matter the path its the journey that counts.

As for the rest of the thread well i can't see any positive outcome.

But to touch on the training in Japan point, my simple thought is why would anyone NOT want to train at Honbu(taking into account family and fiscal restrictions, ie if you don't have any).. for me its like supporting your favourite team but never actually going to watch them at a match..you miss all the atmosphere!

:-)

As for Forward Shoulder Roll, if your Happy keep doing it!

[poryu]

Ben

I told you by PM I wouldnt reply to you. I havent even bothered to read your posts after the last one I replied to once I saw the first line was abusive.

All I have to say to you now is I think your a sad pathetic little individual who has nothing better than to spread runours and attack people he knows he has little chance of meeting in real life.

I can guarantee 100% you would never in your wildest dreams dare to speak to me face to face like you do on forums.

Some people on this forum will tell you that I do dare to speak to people face to face as I do here to you.

I can stand your BS atttidue and I persoanlly find your behaviour and attitude destructive to the Bujinkan.

If you have issues with me take them up privately via email or face to face.

From this day forwards I refuse to discuss anything on a forum with Ben Cole until he grows up adn appologises to me for his attitude and repeated attacks towards me.

Ben be warned I am not joking when I say i will challenge you... your attitude disgusts me.

I find it also pathetic that you have a go at me for no reason and yet you seem able to introduce others to attack.

I look forwards to the day we MIRL, trust me I so much look forwards to it.

[saru1968]

'Ben be warned I am not joking when I say i will challenge you... your attitude disgusts me.'


I would say this to anyone that makes the above statement regardless of what style or school of martial arts they practice...and its not about taking sides, i don't do that unless i'm forced into it.


Any person that resorts to physical threats has lost the arguement in my eyes, this really is unbelievable. Its one thing to send 'strong' 'pm's and private emails but this is a public forum.

We are in the Easter Holidays and i expect the usual influx of kids surfing the forum.

WHAT image will threats portray to them or indeed to Martial Artists in general and it does the Bujinkan no favours in my opinion.

I really don't care whether Paul has been to Japan and if so how many times, its not important to me its not MY training.(although i must admit i assumed he had been many times due to the History and Tradition research)

I can have an acid tongue on occasions but i would not make threats, mind you i am only a Sandan, maybe i have lots more to learn.:-)

But i'd rather remain at my current grade with my somewhat 'fluffy' outlook on life than be a Judan and issue threats. I can say on thing though if one of my prior students had issued a threat they would a) no longer be my student or b) knocked down a grade or three but thats just me, too black & white for my own good.


Its a sad day today....

I will take my leave from this thread as i can't see me adding anything to it( unless someone verbally takes a baseball bat to my head)


Time for some virtual taisabaki me thinks...

*** Disappears ***

[Big Will]

Poryu, I don't understand why you are suddenly "challenging" Mr Cole? That is plain wrong in my opinion. Cole presented his facts, and all you have to do is to respond by presenting facts of your own that discredit his. I honestly think your last post is much more pathetic than any of Cole's.

I'm not even trying to take side's here - I'm just saying that a discussion can be kept fruitful if logical arguments are presented. And so far, Ben has done that. Because of this, I am more inclined to side with him. But I'm not.

I still haven't seen you reply to Cole's questions in this thread (saying you PM'd him doesn't really help the rest of us who are following the discussion). Noone is trying to destroy your reputation - but people like me are trying to form a viewpoint on all of this (when reading the discussion) but it's hard to do when one party does not want to answer questions posed to him.

Again, I'm not saying you are wrong and Cole is right, or vice versa.

[lalom]

So this thread is about "To-Shin Do?" Hmm. Still trying to find out how all this connects. How much a trip to Japan should cost, two high ranking Bujinkan disgracing this wonderful art on a public forum by behaving like children, how most don't agree with Home Study...

To-Shin Do. I enjoy it personally. I love both organizations.

[fire&steel]

One thng i have discovered as I grow older is that I no longer care to physically fight my battles I have lawyers who do it for me now, and they are very good at winning.

:rolleyes:

[benkyoka]

Mr. Richardson feels he has been insulted by Mr. Cole and has challenged him to insult him personally. Does this sound like a threat? Maybe.

An old Karateka once insulted Takamatsu and Takamatsu challenged him. What's the difference?

Oh, ya, everyone thinks Takamatsu is cool.

[hatsie]

it reminds me of being in school and all the kids would gather round and loudly yell...


"FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!"

WELL done tarron, that was spot on. one minute poryo is above fighting and the next he is asking for a square go??????????

guy's i really hope hatsumi sensei IS online!

it would however go someway to proving the arguement as to whether shihan who go to japan and train are 'better' than those who don't,lol.

ps. sorry for the last drunken ramble, but i did buy that h.s.c. years ago, i as such feel i have the right to say it is overpriced crap!, i met the guywho fimed it actually,lol.

it does make for some decent training idea's though, but it's just not deep enough imho.

so what were we saying about toshindo?,lol

[snake_plisskin]

What we were saying about Toshindo is that it's straightforward, solid self-defense with an eye toward modern attacks such as sucker punches, round house "haymakers", and the ubiquitous two-handed blast shove open attack. Actually, one thing anyone who's ever been in a drunken bar fight, or an open battle at, say, a frat house, is that many of them actually start off with someone blasting a sudden, out-of-nowhere two handed slam against the person's chest. A person I trained with at Tai Kai 1998 who was a Quest member told me they trained against such "common" attacks as this and the roundhouse punch.

The person struck by the two-hand shove usually goes down on their butt (or slams into angry bar goers, spilling their beers and really angering them) or just stands there and laughs maniacally if "super sized'.

Another attack this Quest'r talked about was the totally telegraphed and announced attack that is accompanied by lots of screaming and curse words--and which I actually witnessed last week in the dining hall. A very slight student ["Little Guy"] grabbed this seated, rather huge student's shirt and proceeded to **** his hand back by his ear into a quivering fist.

He wanted to hit Big Guy so bad, it was crazy! Everyone at Big Guy's table kind of made to stand up, but Big Guy would have none of that. With this other, Little Guy actually attached to his shirt with a clenched fist and cursing loudly at him, Big Guy just kept eating!

Little Guy just stood there, staring insanely at the big kid eating, trying to cajole Big Guy, to make Big Guy do something. Little Guy was thinking. I could see the gears and wheels of intelligence whirring and grinding in his brain. He was frozen in time, his hand shaking wildly in a fist by his own ear, pent-up energy waiting to be released in one crashing fist against Big Guy's jaw.

But it never did get released.

The Big Guy, his drink spilled by Little Guy's hand still grabbing his shirt, finally stood. Big Guy wasn't just "big": he was massive, and absolutely towered over the little guy. Then, this huge man just chuckled and sneered, telling Little Guy, "Don' try to hit me again." .

Imagine that: this huge football player, surrounded by his huge friends, just sat back down, and kept eating. Well, for another second. When Little Guy moved, Big Guy just jammed his hand into the shorter kid's crotch and pinched Little Guy's nuts.

Little Guy squealed like an impotent pig vainly trying to mount Snowball's mother.He hopped around in pain, turned red in the face, cursed at Big Man loudly enough to get the attention of the rest of the dining hall...

...and didn't do a damn thing besides that.

The Big Guy just stayed relaxed, controlled, and calm. He just kept talking to his friends as he looked out the corner of his eye at Little Guy, who withered backwards, hunched over, picked up his book bag, and slinked off to another table. The whole time, onlookers were either staring, stunned, chuckling to themselves and each other at how ridiculous Little Guy looked to everyone in the cafeteria with his silly Vaudevillian Cafeteria Violence act, or trying to ignore his ineffectual whimpering threats as best as they could.

Now, what does this have to do with anything?

Oh: the subject of threats and intimidations, a subject that apparently some members study.

What follows is something I actually teach in my Advanced Composition classes. I do so strictly for the purposes of imparting knowledge, and no attempt at copyright challenge is neither implied, inferred, directed.

This is, for educational purposes only, a passage from the book [I]The Gift of Fear: Survival Signals that Protect Us From Violence by Gavin DeBecker, page 109-109. All ellipses represent material that, taken out of the passage, does not change or alter the meaning of the passages nor take it out of context, and have been used in the interest of conserving space on this forum.

To whit:

The first step toward deciding which words actually portend danger is
understanding what threats are and what they are not. A threat is a
statement of an intention to do some harm, period. It offers no
conditions, no alternatives, no ways out. It does not contain the words
if, or else, until, unless. Sentences that do contain those words are
not threats; they are intimidations, and there is an important distinction.
Intimidations are statements of conditions to be met in order to avert a
harm. For example, "I will burn down this building down if I don't
get the promotion" is an intimidation, not a threat, because a condition is
offered to avert the harm. With intimidations, the motive is always right
in the statement, and the outcome the speaker desires is clear.
"Unless you apologize, I'll kill you" (the speaker wants an
apology).

...These statements differ importantly from threats because they are
brought into play as high-stakes manipulations. The speaker wants his
conditions met--he does not want to inflict harm. With threats,
conversely, no conditions are offered, usually because the speaker sees
few alternatives...

...As an instrument of communication, the threat is most similar to the
promise (though promises are kept far more often)...

Though you wouldn't know it by the reaction they frequently earn,
threats are rarely spoken from a position of power [emphasis
mine]. Whatever power they have is derived from the fear instilled in
the victim, for fear is the currency of the threatener [emphasis
mine]. He gains advantage through your uncertainty, but once the
words are spoken, he must retreat or advance, and, like all people, he
hopes to retain dignity through either course. (De Becker 108-109)

Gentlemen, take from that what you will.
Learn what you may.
Do with it as you please.

I only offer this up for you all to digest, and hope that someday you'll realize that, sometimes, the person insulting you might really be testing you to see if you will lose your composure and be drawn out, or remain of a warrior's heart and stay as calm, composed, and laughingly self-assured as Big Guy last week remained.

Or not. Or really, really not.

--Deliciously Snakelicious

[Big Will]

Very informative and interesting post, Snake! Thanks!

[Shinkuri]

Man, this stuff between Ben and Paul is unfortunate.
As I don't really know either of them, judgement is not mine to make.

Ultimately, the differences in opinion boil down to a reflection of cultural differences, I believe.

Ben is doing what he thinks is right, by respecting Hatsumi senseis wishes.
Ben has approached this in a Japanese way. I have seen this before, having lived in Japan 5 years and being married to a Japanese woman.

Paul is doing what he thinks is right, defending one of his teachers.
In a very Western way.

It really sucks when people fight and they both feel they are in the right. It is hard to get a positive resolution when this happens.

Did you all stop to think that maybe the ban on training with Ishizuka and all the others isn't mean't for us?
My interpretation is that it is meant for those on the ban list themselves.
Hatsumi sensei wants them to come back. (Well, maybe not Tanemura.) That is all.

Maybe more knowledgable people can correct me, but I don't think anyone has ever been kicked out of the Bujinkan.
Those that don't belong end up removing themselves.

Those that want to belong will make an effort to train with the source and listen to the source.
Because the source is benevolent. Believe it.

I am glad to hear that Ishizuka has come back.
Now I can train with him when I go to Japan.

Chris Chrenka
Seattle Tenchijin Dojo

[Brad Ellin]

I'm locking this until I get home. Then, I'm going to go through it and decide whether or not to re-open, Sin Bin or delete non-relevant posts.

This is not a threat, it's a promise.