Koryu Scotland

[Systematic]

Is there any genuine Koryu in Scotland?

Sys...

[adouglasmhor]

There is Koryu Jujitsu club who train in Easterhouse Sports Centre.

[Dean Winchester]

Just on what you've said that doesn't sound very koryu-ish

[adouglasmhor]

I might have spelled Juijutsu wrong - but all the spellings are wrong anyway :D

[adouglasmhor]

And it does say koryu budo on their leaflets

[Dean Winchester]

Yeah but generally you don't come out with "koryu jujutsu" on your marketing, if anything I would expect to see what ryu it is. If they were to be so public.

[Kogusoku]

There is Koryu Jujitsu club who train in Easterhouse Sports Centre.

Do you know which ryugi/ryuha that would be?

[adouglasmhor]

Not a clue - I do body pump there on different nights from when they train. And different classes in a different centre when they do train. The leaflet did say Koryu Budo though. Underneath the bit that said Juijutsu. The one time I did see them they were doing ukemi and some of the senior grades were doing sword (and not that well IMO and I am no sworsdsman).

[Kogusoku]

Not a clue - I do body pump there on different nights from when they train. And different classes in a different centre when they do train. The leaflet did say Koryu Budo though. Underneath the bit that said Juijutsu. The one time I did see them they were doing ukemi and some of the senior grades were doing sword (and not that well IMO and I am no sworsdsman).

If that's the case, I'd be very sceptical if it were real koryu. One thing, we don't usually advertise so blatantly. Another, if we were to, it would be via a website and there would be an interview process to weed out the crazies and anime wannabes.

Mind you, not every ryuha has the same advertisement policies.

[adouglasmhor]

If that's the case, I'd be very sceptical if it were real koryu. One thing, we don't usually advertise so blatantly. Another, if we were to, it would be via a website and there would be an interview process to weed out the crazies and anime wannabes.

Mind you, not every ryuha has the same advertisement policies.

Crazies and anime wanabees
It's OK we get them instead.

[Kogusoku]

Crazies and anime wanabees
It's OK we get them instead.

I have noticed. ;)

(Just kiddin'!)

[Fusen]

Theres Motoha Yoshin Ryu in Carlisle.

http://www.scottishkoryu.co.uk/

more info about Motoha Yoshin Ryu here:

http://www.motohayoshinryu.co.uk/home.htm

http://www.jeremy-carroll.co.uk/home.htm

(Thats one awesome looking dojo)

(ps, I dont know anything about the Motoha Yoshin Ryu, but there website history seemed to be quite straight forward, and match what little I know of the Takagi Yoshin Ryu)

[Kogusoku]

Theres Motoha Yoshin Ryu in Carlisle.

http://www.scottishkoryu.co.uk/

more info about Motoha Yoshin Ryu here:

http://www.motohayoshinryu.co.uk/home.htm

http://www.jeremy-carroll.co.uk/home.htm

(Thats one awesome looking dojo)

(ps, I dont know anything about the Motoha Yoshin Ryu, but there website history seemed to be quite straight forward, and match what little I know of the Takagi Yoshin Ryu)

Hmm, I wouldn't go as far as to call Moto-ha Yoshin-ryu a koryu. It's more a modern offshoot of a koryu with certain classical trappings.

It's an offshoot of Hontai Yoshin-ryu jujutsu. Yasumoto Akiyoshi was a student of the 17th soke of Hontai Yoshin-ryu, Minaki Saburo and recieved Menkyo Kaiden and an 8th dan in the ryuha (Some koryu have allowed dan/kyu grades to seep in to their traditions). He was later allowed to form his own style, and that is pretty much what Moto-ha Yoshin-ryu is.

As I wrote before, not a koryu, but a gendai budo that is an offshoot of a koryu.

[Ikai]

As I wrote before, not a koryu, but a gendai budo that is an offshoot of a koryu.

Hello, in your opinion what makes it a gendai budo instead of a koryu like Hontai yoshin ryu?

I have watched some clips on youtube and it looks very similar to Hontai yoshin ryu. I can see similarities with other lines of Takagi ryu too.

Do the ryugi and mokuroku differ that much?

[Kogusoku]

Hello, in your opinion what makes it a gendai budo instead of a koryu like Hontai yoshin ryu?

I have watched some clips on youtube and it looks very similar to Hontai yoshin ryu. I can see similarities with other lines of Takagi ryu too.

Do the ryugi and mokuroku differ that much?

Of course it looks similar to Hontai Yoshin-ryu, the founder of Moto-ha Yoshin-ryu was a student and menkyo kaiden recipient of HYR. Takagi-ryu is extant in Japan in many lines Hontai Yoshin-ryu is one of them. In fact, it's full official name IIRC is Hontai Yoshin-ryu Takagi-ryu.

What makes it a gendai? The fact that it was incepted and founded in the late 20th century. The founder of Moto-ha Yoshin-ryu was born in the 1930's, recieved his menkyo kaiden in the early 1980's. Chronologically, it's a gendai. Also, some of the techniques are slightly different from the mainline.

Koryu are classical schools of Japanese martial arts that were developed prior to the Meiji restoration of 1868.

[jameswhelan]

Takagi-ryu is extant in Japan in many lines Hontai Yoshin-ryu is one of them.

What makes [Moto-ha Yoshin ryu] gendai? The fact that it was incepted and founded in the late 20th century.

Hi Kogusoku,

Similarly, as you point out, Hontai Yoshin ryu was incepted and founded in the mid-to-late 20th century. Is it your opinion that Hontai Yoshin ryu is also therefore, gendai?

[Kogusoku]

Hi Kogusoku,

Similarly, as you point out, Hontai Yoshin ryu was incepted and founded in the mid-to-late 20th century. Is it your opinion that Hontai Yoshin ryu is also therefore, gendai?

No James, I pointed out that Moto-ha Yoshin-ryu was incepted in the late 20th century, specifically in the early - mid 1980's.

Hontai Yoshin-ryu comes from the Ishiya (Sometimes pronounced Ishitani) line of Takagi-ryu and has direct lineage from Kakuno Masayoshi. Tsutsui Tomotaro became soke of Takagi-ryu while Minaki Saburo became soke of Hontai Yoshin-ryu Takagi-ryu via direct transmission from the prior soke, Kakuno Masayoshi. (The names and subnames of each line get rather confusing when you look at all the lines of Takagi-ryu that are out there.)

Moto-ha Yoshin-ryu comes from the Hontai Yoshin-ryu line and is therefore a Bunpa (an offshoot) of that line, using an almsot identical syllabus of techniques.

It's a gendai with heavy koryu trappings, but nontheless a gendai.

[jameswhelan]

Hi Kogusoku,

So to be clear, Kakuno was the Soke of two lines:

Takagi ryu
Hontai Yoshin ryu Takagi Ryu

Minaki was nominated by Kakuno as his successor as Soke of Hontai Yoshin ryu Takagi ryu. (Later renamed Fumon Yoshin ryu and then Hontai Yoshin ryu.)

That's different from what I heard - thanks.

What about Hontai Yoshin ryu's Jujutsu Roppo (if that's the correct term?). Wasn't this developed by Minaki sensei? What is your opinion of this part of their curriculum vis-à-vis koryu?

[Ikai]

Maybe it would be better to open a new thread specifically on Hontai Yoshin Ryu Takagi Ryu lineages?

[Kogusoku]

Hi Kogusoku,

So to be clear, Kakuno was the Soke of two lines:

Takagi ryu
Hontai Yoshin ryu Takagi Ryu

Minaki was nominated by Kakuno as his successor as Soke of Hontai Yoshin ryu Takagi ryu. (Later renamed Fumon Yoshin ryu and then Hontai Yoshin ryu.)

That's different from what I heard - thanks.

What about Hontai Yoshin ryu's Jujutsu Roppo (if that's the correct term?). Wasn't this developed by Minaki sensei? What is your opinion of this part of their curriculum vis-à-vis koryu?

The soke of a ryuha once in the seat of power can pretty much do what he/she wishes in the ryuha, concerning the licencing parameters, teaching methods, or even reorganizing the mokuroku.

[jameswhelan]

Hi Kogusoku,

Can you explain a little more about Takagi Ryu and Hontai Yoshin ryu Takagi ryu please? How did Kakuno come to inherit these two lines? Did Ishiya teach him both lines or did he have another teacher besides Ishiya?

[poryu]

Hi

Based on Steves post on what makes a Koryu then I would say HYR is also a Gedai art as well and not a Koryu

[Fusen]

Hi

Based on Steves post on what makes a Koryu then I would say HYR is also a Gedai art as well and not a Koryu

Hi Kogusoku, sorry this is a bit of a personal question, but if we apply the Soke and Meiji-1868 cut of date to the letter, would that also make the Matsui-ha Sosuishi ryu of Matsui Hyakutaro Munetada born 1864 and recieved Shingen No Maki (Menkyo Kaiden) and established the Matsui-ha
most likely after 1868, a gendai art? With the mainline still being Koryu?

[Kogusoku]

Hi Kogusoku, sorry this is a bit of a personal question, but if we apply the Soke and Meiji-1868 cut of date to the letter, would that also make the Matsui-ha Sosuishi ryu of Matsui Hyakutaro Munetada born 1864 and recieved Shingen No Maki (Menkyo Kaiden) and established the Matsui-ha
most likely after 1868, a gendai art? With the mainline still being Koryu?

Personal questions mean personal messages.

PM sent.

[jameswhelan]

Hi Kogusoku,

Anything further on your assertion that Kakuno was the Soke of two different lines of Takagi ryu?

(I think your quite wrong about that, btw)

[Kogusoku]

(I think your quite wrong about that, btw)

Kindly elaborate on that then please.

[poryu]

Hi Kogusoku,

Can you explain a little more about Takagi Ryu and Hontai Yoshin ryu Takagi ryu please? How did Kakuno come to inherit these two lines? Did Ishiya teach him both lines or did he have another teacher besides Ishiya?

HI

The soke (Kakuno) handed Takagi Ryu to Tsutsui sensei then handed another line to Minaki with a different name.

This is common.

[jameswhelan]

Hi Poryu,

So did Kakuno inherit two lines of Takagi ryu?

Both Takagi ryu and Hontai Yoshin ryu go back through the younger and older Ishiyas to Yagi Ikugoro.

(This is interesting because there has been a question mark over exactly which of the Ishiyas Kakuno trained with.)

[poryu]

Hi Poryu,

So did Kakuno inherit two lines of Takagi ryu?


No

Both Takagi ryu and Hontai Yoshin ryu go back through the younger and older Ishiyas to Yagi Ikugoro.

Look at my web site the lineages are there. That should explain it all for you.

(This is interesting because there has been a question mark over exactly which of the Ishiyas Kakuno trained with.)

Who put that question mark there? The denkei states it all.

[jameswhelan]

Kindly elaborate on that then please.

Hi Kogusoku,

You inferred that Kakuno was the soke of two lines of Takagi ryu. I dont think thats correct, partly because of the lineages published on hontaiyoshinryu.com and takagiryu.com (which is now defunct) and on Poryu's webste, as he mentions, and partly for other reasons.

I asked Poryu to clarify if indeed your assertion that Kakuno received two lines of Takagi ryu was correct and he said no.

[jameswhelan]

The denkei states it all.

Hi Poryu,

The denkei is what the persion at the end of the list believes to be the list of who succeeded whom as the head of the school. It doesn't necessarily state who taught whom.

[jameswhelan]

Moto-ha Yoshin-ryu comes from the Hontai Yoshin-ryu line and is therefore a Bunpa (an offshoot) of that line, using an almsot identical syllabus of techniques.

It's a gendai with heavy koryu trappings, but nontheless a gendai.

Hi Kogusoku,

Is it the case then that if a post-1868 recepient of Menkyo Kaiden (or equivalent) in a koryu creates a branch of that school, then the branch is not considered koryu (by virtue of the date of branching being post 1868)?

Moto-ha Yoshin-ryu was incepted in... the early - mid 1980's.

While Yasumoto Akiyoshi received Menkyo Kaiden in the early eighties (I believe it was one of Inoue's first acts as Soke), Moto-ha Yoshin ryu was branched from Hontai Yoshin ryu in 1999.

[Kogusoku]

Hi Kogusoku,

Is it the case then that if a post-1868 recepient of Menkyo Kaiden (or equivalent) in a koryu creates a branch of that school, then the branch is not considered koryu (by virtue of the date of branching being post 1868)?

If the menkyo kaiden recipient is promogulating the ryugi and is transmitting the tradition correctly without changing the name of said ryugi, then of course not.

I'd remind you to look at phenomena like Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu where you have two different dojo - Only outside of Japan are they called "*****-Ha" and in Japan, they are just referred to as normal. Both are in contact with the soke. (In fact, I am in Japan at present and at the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai embu at Meiji Jingu earlier on this month, I actually saw the soke and the dojocho of one of the lines walking to the train station together after the usual drinking party.)

However if the said menkyo kaidensha makes his/her own ryugi, then that is very much a different matter.

[Systematic]

So, I take that as a "NO"

[poryu]

If the menkyo kaiden recipient is promogulating the ryugi and is transmitting the tradition correctly without changing the name of said ryugi, then of course not.


However if the said menkyo kaidensha makes his/her own ryugi, then that is very much a different matter.

Hi based on this then.........

Depending on if it was Kakuno sensei or Minaki sensei who created the name Hon Tai Yoshin Ryu at least 40 - 50 years after 1868, with alterations to structure and name, HYR is a Gendai and not a Koryu.

[Dean Winchester]

Isn't it something of a losing battle to try to generalise what is or is not Koryu?
As Steve posted, in the "stickie" at the top of this forum, it's all on a case by case basis.

Yes we can give a cut off point time wise I suppose but as for everything else well it's open somewhat, to a degree.

IMO and based on what little understanding I have of koryu I don't think it's "fair" to take something someone like Steve has said and then go "oh well if you say that about x then it must apply to y".

Rather it is better to show the nuances that exist between the koryu as opposed to trying to create one big over ruling "law" for what makes something Koryu or not, it just seems to be far to complex for people to create one big all encompasing definition which all koryu must meet.

[jameswhelan]

Whether or not a lineage is koryu or not, like wheter or not something is a work of art or not, is largely in the eye of the beholder.

There are schools that date from after 1868 that are considered koryu. There are schools that are not in the koryu organisations that are still held to be koryu.

For the record, in my opinion both Hontai Yoshin ryu and Moto-ha Yoshin ryu are koryu.

[jameswhelan]

So, I take that as a "NO"

lol

Sorry for the verbiage Systematic. It's vital to be very exact with your meaning with these kinds of things.

Welcome to the world of internet koryu discussion!

[jameswhelan]

takagiryu.com (which is now defunct) .

www.takagiryu.com is back up.

[Yoshinkan Dojo]

Hi guys,
Just to clarify a couple of points from my Motoha Yoshin Ryu and ex-Hontai Yoshin Ryu perspective.

I have studied Hontai Yoshin Ryu since 1985 when Yasumoto sensei visited the UK, I graded to shodan in 1993 in Japan and held the rank of 3rd dan when I left this year.
After resigning from the main line of Hontai Yoshin Ryu I am now continuing my studies with Soke Yasumoto Akiyoshi and I am a member of the Motoha Yoshin Ryu UK group with the UK Sohonbu-cho Sensei Jeremy Carroll (chuden no maki).

Motoha Yoshin Ryu is a branch of the Hontai Yoshin Ryu-Takagi Ryu lineage following the teachings of Minaki Soke (Hontai Yoshin Ryu) and Kanazawa Ichizu sensei (Takagi Ryu), and as with any menkyo kaiden (=full transmission and permission to become independent) holder who branches off a koryu main line it is still a koryu art even though the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai only recognises the main line of any koryu.

The name Motoha Yoshin Ryu refers to following the original style of teachings of Hontai Yoshin Ryu-Takagi ryu lineage with the Moto (origin) & ha (style) kanji and it also has reference to Yasumoto sensei's name.

As an example Hontai Yoshin Ryu-Takagi Ryu was the original name for the Ryu but after Minaki soke organised the techniques into the modern Kata that are practiced now by Hontai Yoshin Ryu he renamed the ryu Fumon Yoshin Ryu in order to distinguish it from the original style. Minaki soke later renamed the art as Hontai Yoshin Ryu and it is still considered as a koryu. Minaki soke was also a founder member of the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. The lineage does not break just because a Menkyo Kaiden holder uses their permission to become independent.

There are also other recent divisions within the lineage including Minaki soke passing the Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu scrolls and soke title of Kukishin Ryu to Matsuda Kyodo which he then passed on to his training partner Fumon Tanaka (N.B. I saw Matsuda Kyodo last year, he still teaches Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo at the Imazu Budokai/AKA HYR Sohonbu Dojo).

There are also seeral others Takagi Ryu and Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Hontai Kukishin Ryu etc., and although I am not personally knowledgeable about all of these Ryuha I feel that I should consider them as legitimate koryu branches even though they have been distinguished by a slightly different name and the fact that many of these transitions happened in the modern era. The lineage on this web page was provided by Soke Yasumoto http://www.motohayoshinryu.co.uk/history5.htm

Regarding grades Motoha Yoshin Ryu uses both dan and den grades although once the den grades are presented Yasumoto Soke told me that only the den rank should be referred to.

Regarding teaching in Scotland, I closed the Scottish dojo as the students were in the Army and were posted abroad.

I now operate a full time dojo in Carlisle just south of the border teaching Motoha Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu, along with Yasumoto Soke's teaching we retain the full modern syllabus of Hontai Yoshin Ryu in our dojo. Last month Yasumoto soke name my dojo the Northern England Yoshinkan Dojo.

If any of you would like information on studying with us or attending our events in Carlisle as guests please do not hesitate to email me.

I hope you all have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

Regards, Andy