ITF Patterns - Who wrote what?

[Mitch]

I realised to my shame that although I know that many individuals were involved in the creating the ITF patterns, I don't know any more than that!

I wonder if the assorted brainboxes of MAP (I'm looking at you StuartA and TKDStudent :D ) could come up with a list of who you think was involved with creating each pattern?

Mitch

[TKDstudent]

I realised to my shame that although I know that many individuals were involved in the creating the ITF patterns, I don't know any more than that!
I wonder if the assorted brainboxes of MAP (I'm looking at you StuartA and TKDStudent :D ) could come up with a list of who you think was involved with creating each pattern?Mitch
The 1st Korean TKD pattern devised was HwaRang. It was created by Col Nam Tae Hi, who also did ChungMu, the 2nd 1 (1955). Then his student, the asst instructor of the OhDokwan Sgt Han Cha Kyo created UlJi in 1956. In 1961 GM CK Choi (Chang Keun Choi) helped with Gaebaek. The way the story goes is that Gen Choi had things in his head & he used these talented superman t chart it out on the floor. They, the martial artists, told him what fit, felt good & worked. They tweaked it & by 1959, the 1st 3 appeared in Gen Choi's 1st book on TKD.
Gen Choi was then dispatched to Malaysia as an Ambassador in 1962. This was shortly afte the military coup that occurred on May 16, 1961. This coup was carried out by Choi's subordinate, Gen Park Chung Hee. Bad history & bad blood between the 2, with different visions of what should happen with the coup, started to widen the wedge between the 2. In order to cement his power, Gen Park ridded Korea of Gen Choi & whatever resistance he had by forcing him abroad in a diplomatic post. (This is vital to understanding TKD controversal & hidden history. Politics plays HUGE role in the development)
While on Malaysia in 1962, he started teaching TKD. So Malaysia became the 2nd home to TKD, followed by the all important Vietnam in December of 1962, when Col Nam led the 1st batch of Army TKD instructors there. Ambassador Choi then sent for 2 of his star pupils to come to Malaysia. They were Sgt Major Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim. They helped him with the next 16 patterns. By 1965 gen Choi produced his 1st English book on TKD. It contained 20 Korean TKD patterns & karate katas.
Finally in 1972, the bible of TKD was printed. In it all 24 patterns were there, including the final 4, Moon Moo, So San, Eui Am & Yong Gae. It is assummed, but I have not verified it, that GM JC Kim helped with these 4, as he was the chief instructor at ITF headquarters which he was instrumental in forming on March 22, 1966. It was also possible that GMs Kim Young Soo, Lee Byung Moo & Cho Sang Min may have helped as well, along with GM Park Jong Soo, who all were prominent at that time & location.
Finally KoDang was replaced by Juche in the ealry 80s. It is a widely held belief that GM Park Jung tae designed it while living in NK, teaching the 1st batch of NK instructors, or shortly thereafter. It is also possible that gen Choi's son, Choi Jung Hwa & son in law, Michael Cormack, along with Master Lim Won Sup may have assisted to some extent.
In any event Gen Choi had the final say & took all the credit. It is fairly clear that he also had the names of the patterns, with the definitions & diagram in his head, when he directed the movements.
Hope this helps

[Mitch]

The 1st Korean TKD pattern devised was HwaRang. It was created by Col Nam Tae Hi, who also did ChungMu, the 2nd 1 (1955). Then his student, the asst instructor of the OhDokwan Sgt Han Cha Kyo created UlJi in 1956. In 1961 GM CK Choi (Chang Keun Choi) helped with Gaebaek. The way the story goes is that Gen Choi had things in his head & he used these talented superman t chart it out on the floor. They, the martial artists, told him what fit, felt good & worked. They tweaked it & by 1959, the 1st 3 appeared in Gen Choi's 1st book on TKD.
Gen Choi was then dispatched to Malaysia as an Ambassador in 1962. This was shortly afte the military coup that occurred on May 16, 1961. This coup was carried out by Choi's subordinate, Gen Park Chung Hee. Bad history & bad blood between the 2, with different visions of what should happen with the coup, started to widen the wedge between the 2. In order to cement his power, Gen Park ridded Korea of Gen Choi & whatever resistance he had by forcing him abroad in a diplomatic post. (This is vital to understanding TKD controversal & hidden history. Politics plays HUGE role in the development)
While on Malaysia in 1962, he started teaching TKD. So Malaysia became the 2nd home to TKD, followed by the all important Vietnam in December of 1962, when Col Nam led the 1st batch of Army TKD instructors there. Ambassador Choi then sent for 2 of his star pupils to come to Malaysia. They were Sgt Major Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim. They helped him with the next 16 patterns. By 1965 gen Choi produced his 1st English book on TKD. It contained 20 Korean TKD patterns & karate katas.
Finally in 1972, the bible of TKD was printed. In it all 24 patterns were there, including the final 4, Moon Moo, So San, Eui Am & Yong Gae. It is assummed, but I have not verified it, that GM JC Kim helped with these 4, as he was the chief instructor at ITF headquarters which he was instrumental in forming on March 22, 1966. It was also possible that GMs Kim Young Soo, Lee Byung Moo & Cho Sang Min may have helped as well, along with GM Park Jong Soo, who all were prominent at that time & location.
Finally KoDang was replaced by Juche in the ealry 80s. It is a widely held belief that GM Park Jung tae designed it while living in NK, teaching the 1st batch of NK instructors, or shortly thereafter. It is also possible that gen Choi's son, Choi Jung Hwa & son in law, Michael Cormack, along with Master Lim Won Sup may have assisted to some extent.
In any event Gen Choi had the final say & took all the credit. It is fairly clear that he also had the names of the patterns, with the definitions & diagram in his head, when he directed the movements.
Hope this helps

Many thanks :)

So, just to list them out:

1. Chon-Ji -Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
2. Dan-Gun - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
3. Do-San - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
4. Won-Hyo - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
5. Yul-Gok - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
6. Joong-Gun - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
7. Toi-Gye - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
8. Hwa-Rang - Nam Tae Hi
9. Choong-Moo - Nam Tae Hi
10. Kwang-Gae - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
11. Po-Eun - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
12. Ge-Baek - Gen Choi & C K Choi
13. Eui-Am - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
14. Choong-Jang - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
15. Ko Dang - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
15. Juche - Park Jung tae & Choi Jung Hwa/Michael Cormack/Lim Won Sup?
16. Sam-Il - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
17. Yoo-Sin - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
18. Choi-Yong - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
19. Yong-Gae - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
20. Ul-Ji - Han Cha Kyo - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
21. Moon-Moo - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo
22. So-San - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo

23. Se-Jong - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo

24. Tong-Il - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo


Obviously I've left General Choi out of the list, assuming he's there.

Does that follow your understanding TKDStudent?

Mitch

[StuartA]

1955 (by Gen. Choi and Nam Tae Hi)
Hwa-Rang 1956, this was the 1st & it was nam, han & choi
Choong-Moo 1956 2nd 1 was nam & choi

1955 (by Gen. Choi and Han Cha Kyo) was 1957
Ul-Ji

1961 (by Gen. Choi and C.K. Choi)
Gae-Baek

1963 (by Gen. Choi, Woo Jae Lim and Kim Bok Man - I'm not sure about order here)
Chon-Ji
Dan-Gun
Do-San
Won-Hyo
Yul-Gok
Joong-Gun
Toi-Gye
Kwang-Gae
Po-Eun
Yoo-Sin
Choong-Jang
Sam-Il
Choi-Yong
Ko-Dang
Se-Jong
Tong-Il

Eui-Am
Moon-Moo
Yon-Ge
So-San

1988 (by Park Jung Tae) Juche

-- most of this work credit must go to Dani Stienhoff.. not me. Im sure TKDStudent could round off the rough edges or correct any misnomers. I like the history, but am not a TKD Historian or anything.. what i researched for my book was simply to help set the scene.

Stuart

[StuartA]

Many thanks :)

So, just to list them out:

1. Chon-Ji -Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
2. Dan-Gun - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
3. Do-San - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
4. Won-Hyo - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
5. Yul-Gok - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
6. Joong-Gun - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
7. Toi-Gye - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
8. Hwa-Rang - Nam Tae Hi
9. Choong-Moo - Nam Tae Hi
10. Kwang-Gae - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
11. Po-Eun - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
12. Ge-Baek - Gen Choi & C K Choi
13. Eui-Am - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
14. Choong-Jang - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
15. Ko Dang - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
15. Juche - Park Jung tae & Choi Jung Hwa/Michael Cormack/Lim Won Sup?
16. Sam-Il - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
17. Yoo-Sin - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
18. Choi-Yong - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
19. Yong-Gae - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
20. Ul-Ji - Han Cha Kyo - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
21. Moon-Moo - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo
22. So-San - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo

23. Se-Jong - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo

24. Tong-Il - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo


Obviously I've left General Choi out of the list, assuming he's there.

Does that follow your understanding TKDStudent?

Mitch

Thought Hwa-rang was designed by Han Cha Kyo!!!!!

Also, other 'could' have had influence.. Park, Jong Soo, Kong, Young Il (has mentioned his involvement regarding them - not sure to what extent), Lee, Byung Moo (a good friend told me had influence)..

Tis a puzzle i doubt will ever be truely solved sadly!


Stuart

[TKDstudent]

8. Hwa-Rang - Nam Tae Hi & Sgt Han Cha Kyo
13. Eui-Am - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim No this was not part of the original 20, so it is assummed the help came in Seoul post 1965
19. Yong-Gae - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim - No this was not part of the original 20, so it is assummed the help came in Seoul post 1965
20. Ul-Ji - Han Cha Kyo NOT these other 2- Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim AS IT WAS completed in 1956
21. Moon-Moo - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo
22. So-San - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo
23. Se-Jong - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo NO this was finished in Malaysia prior to 1965
24. Tong-Il - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo NO this was finished in Malaysia with GMs Kim & Woo, NOTE this pattern changed from its original version

Obviously I've left General Choi out of the list, assuming he's there.
Yes he had his hands on all 25, to some extent & more on some, less on others
Does that follow your understanding TKDStudent? MitchIt does now. #s 13, 19, 21 & 22 appeared 1st in the 1972 text commonly called the bible of TKD. They were not part of the original 20 & did not appear in the karate like book that came out in 1965

[TKDstudent]

1955 (by Gen. Choi and Nam Tae Hi)
Hwa-Rang 1956, this was the 1st & it was nam, han & choi YES

1963 (by Gen. Choi, Woo Jae Lim and Kim Bok Man - I'm not sure about order here) I would say 1962-65, why do you narrow it to 1963?
Chon-Ji, Dan-Gun, Do-San, Won-Hyo, Yul-Gok, Joong-Gun, Toi-Gye, Kwang-Gae, Po-Eun, Yoo-Sin, Choong-Jang, Sam-Il, Choi-Yong, Ko-Dang, Se-Jong, Tong-Il

Eui-Am Moon-Moo Yon-Ge So-San

1988 (by Park Jung Tae) Juche Much earlier, I had learned it by then, it appeared in the 1983 1st edition which was actually printed in 1985. I would place it as the ealry 80s, best evidence to date that I uncovered puts in at 82-3

-- most of this work credit must go to Dani Stienhoff.. not me. Im sure TKDStudent could round off the rough edges or correct any misnomers. I like the history, but am not a TKD Historian or anything.. what i researched for my book was simply to help set the scene. Stuart
Mr. Anslow, who is he & how can I read his writings?

[TKDstudent]

Thought Hwa-rang was designed by Han Cha Kyo!!!!! Definately & I was remiss not to list him. His org creates him with HwaRang & not UlJi. The fact is that Col. Nam was Sgt Han's teacher. The outstanding & very talented Sgt Han Cha Kyo was very instrumental in setting up the OhDokwan, as he was the asst instructor under Col. Nam. Since their military assignements at the time was to teach TKD to the soldiers we can safely assume that much of what they did was a team effort. In the military the higher officers usually get the credit, putting their names on works done by the soldiers, usually under the direction of the Sgt Major, the real boss. GM Kim Bok Man was a Sgt Major, the top non-commissioned officer in the ROK Army. A rank that few soldiers attain. Sgt Han also was on the historic 1st demo team in 1959 to Vietnam & Taiwan AND the SK Govt sponsored Kukki GoodWill tour of 1965, led by Ambassador Choi. His contributions are invlauable & should not be discounted. He is all over the 1959 book that is in Korean

Also, other 'could' have had influence.. Park, Jong Soo, Kong, Young Il (has mentioned his involvement regarding them - not sure to what extent), Lee, Byung Moo (a good friend told me had influence)..
Tis a puzzle i doubt will ever be truely solved sadly! Stuart

Park Jong Soo definately, as he lived in Gen Choi's house for a prolonged time. Sgt Han Cha Kyo was also married into Gen Choi's family. GM Lee Byung Moo also played a vital role in the development. It is safe to say that we can list almost everyone entirely, but the exact specifics of who did what, when & to what extent will never be tied down completely & without error.
I am aware of GM Kong & do believe he met Gen Choi after most of the patterns were finalized. he may of course had a hand in the last 4, (before Juche), as he was still in SK during some of that time. None the less, his contributions as a world traveler & promoter, famous for his talented demos & challenge matches, which legend has him undefeated are immense. BTW I am the only 1 who ever defeated him in a challenge match

[Mitch]

So, just to update the full list:
1. Chon-Ji -Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
2. Dan-Gun - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
3. Do-San - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
4. Won-Hyo - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
5. Yul-Gok - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
6. Joong-Gun - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
7. Toi-Gye - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
8. Hwa-Rang - Nam Tae Hi & Han Cha Kyo
9. Choong-Moo - Nam Tae Hi
10. Kwang-Gae - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
11. Po-Eun - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
12. Ge-Baek - Gen Choi & C K Choi
13. Eui-Am - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo
14. Choong-Jang - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
15. Ko Dang - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
15. Juche - Park Jung tae & Choi Jung Hwa/Michael Cormack/Lim Won Sup?
16. Sam-Il - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
17. Yoo-Sin - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
18. Choi-Yong - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
19. Yong-Gae - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo
20. Ul-Ji - Han Cha Kyo
21. Moon-Moo - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo
22. So-San - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo
23. Se-Jong - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo
24. Tong-Il - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo

I'm not quite following some of the points in your correction post TKDStudent, if you have the time to copy and paste list above and simply overtype it with the names of the correct people I'd really appreciate it. :)

Mitch

[TKDstudent]

So, just to update the full list:
1. Chon-Ji -Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
2. Dan-Gun - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
3. Do-San - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
4. Won-Hyo - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
5. Yul-Gok - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
6. Joong-Gun - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
7. Toi-Gye - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
8. Hwa-Rang - Nam Tae Hi & Han Cha Kyo
9. Choong-Moo - Nam Tae Hi
10. Kwang-Gae - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
11. Po-Eun - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
12. Ge-Baek - Gen Choi & C K Choi
13. Eui-Am - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo
14. Choong-Jang - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
15. Ko Dang - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
15. Juche - Park Jung tae & Choi Jung Hwa/Michael Cormack/Lim Won Sup?
16. Sam-Il - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
17. Yoo-Sin - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
18. Choi-Yong - Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim
19. Yong-Gae - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo
20. Ul-Ji - Han Cha Kyo
21. Moon-Moo - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo
22. So-San - JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo
23. Se-Jong - No Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo
24. Tong-Il - No Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim JC Kim/Kim Young Soo/Lee Byung Moo/Cho Sang Min/Park Jong Soo
I'm not quite following some of the points in your correction post TKDStudent, if you have the time to copy and paste list above and simply overtype it with the names of the correct people I'd really appreciate it. :)
MitchIs this clearer now?

[Mitch]

Is this clearer now?

Fabulous, thank you :) Sorry for being dense, I've got a horrible cold with a head full of cotton wool.

Plus I'm not very bright at the best of times!

Thanks,
Mitch

[TheMadhoose]

Nice informative thread guys thanks all.

[TKDstudent]

Fabulous, thank you :) Sorry for being dense, I've got a horrible cold with a head full of cotton wool. Thanks, MitchNo problem, the way I remember it is by 4s. I remember the 1st 4 made, HwaRang, ChungMu, UlJi & GaeBaek. Then I remember the final 4, EuiAm, YonGae, MoonMu & SoSan. Then the other 16 were done on Malaysia. See it is easy

[Ironized]

wasn't juche made in north korea?

[StuartA]

TKDStudent.. Dani's writtings can be found on my book forum. Hes a 1st kup (maybe 1st Dan now) and has a very enquiring mind.

Stuart

[TKDstudent]

wasn't juche made in north korea?I believe that much of it was mapped out there by GM Park Jung Tae. However I am not sure where the final seal of approval was stamped on. It could have been in Canada, as both GM Park & Gen Choi were neighbors

[chrispillertkd]

BTW I am the only 1 who ever defeated him in a challenge match

Now that's a story I'd love to hear! :)

Pax,

Chris