Aggression in Judo Training/Competition

[Scaramouch]

Had a quick scan through the threads and couldn't find anything on this topic, but apologies if its been covered.

I started my interest in MAs as a kid of 5 doing judo. I am now 30something, have practised several other MAs (mainly the striking arts i.e. punching/kicking) but I have come full circle and have just started back judo training. The topic I want to raise concerns aggression levels in most modern judoka during training/competition. The club I train at has fairly low to non-existent levels of aggression. By aggression I mean the ability to not only "switch-on" but obviously, to control ones aggression also. I am interested in hearing the modern judokas view, do you use aggression or concentrate purely on technique and competition scoring? Do you really feel like you are "fighting" an opponent, or do you treat more like a physical chess game?

From my own view, I am aggressive :mad: (albeit controlled - I do not wish to injure the uke) in my judo but at my club I feel as if they think I'm a bit odd..........!!:confused:

[Hybrid_Killer]

Hrmm that is a bit odd...the clubs i have been to are all pretty damn aggressive maybe check another club in your area and compare?

[Aegis]

Oddly enough this is one of the reasons I stopped training in Judo...

Throughout my training I was a defensive player, I'd wait for an attack and counter it. My attacks were generally only made with an opening from an opponent, usually caused by them deciding to use an opening in my defence and me reacting slightly ahead. My coaches often encouraged me to be more aggressive, to attack more, and I tried this with very little success.

However, I entered my brown belt grading with a minor cold, which made me feel quite lethargic. As such, aggression was right out. I just wasn't ever going to manage to be aggressive on that day. This didn't stop me from performing better than I had ever done before, scoring a waza-ari and 2 Ippons in my 2 fights, and getting no point against me. I was so relaxed on the day that my opponents couldn't feel much resistance and thought they'd have an easy time throwing me. Instead my relaxed state allowed me to feel where they were going, without thinking I could react to it fast enough to effortlessly throw.

Basically it was a feeling of strength through being relaxed, and it didn't fit in with much of the Judo I'd seen to that point and left me wondering if there was more out there. The jujutsu I do now emphasises being relaxed and calm for every technique, not going for the aggressive approach but instead using what's presented. It works better for me than Judo, but this may nopt be the case with everyone.

[Scaramouch]

I suppose I could clarify what I mean by aggression, into two areas:

- being an aggressive, attacking style judoka

- being relaxed whilst playing (or "fighting" as I prefer), both taking initiative and counterattacking if the opportunity presents itself, but aggressive in the application of technique

I would class myself more of the later, my MA background gives me the confidence to be relaxed during the initial grapple/grip establishment but I like to focus my aggression into the technique whether that be in the throw or subsequent groundwork.

[Furikuchan]

You want agressiveness? Best place to look for it is over here in the United States of Gaijins.
Aggression is an art form in and of itself at shiai over here. The fight for a throw is partially determined by which guy (or girl) has the more dominating will. Very rarely will you see the player who walks out with calm confidence and patience (and, of course, when a player like that appears, it frustrates he who fights with aggression).
Oddly enough, my ability to relax during competition has won me many a fight. The dominating judoka who tenses up while trying to keep a hold down is easily dominated by the loose judoka who stays relaxed enough to flow with his opponent's moves.
As long as you can keep the overpowering strength and force of will in check, your opponent will mess up. Being a good counter player is just as useful as being a good aggressive player.

[Sonshu]

If I am stronger I will often try to be more technical unless I am outclassed technique wise then I will be the agressor - in the odd times I am not the strongest I will become the most agressive.

[judojedi]

i have never come across a really aggressive player of a high rank. the only aggressive players i've fought have been white/yellow belts. maybe our definitions of 'aggression' are different.
i have been a constant attacker and a constant defender/counterer in fights, but never aggressive. i treat all fights like a game of chess, especially on the ground. i even tend to close my eyes when i'm on the ground and just work through touch.
i have trained with some really good players in my time and they're the same, no aggression just control. smooth, continuous control.

[Sonshu]

Not the BJJ style of defending then working a submission. I tend to be active and attacking not agressive as in throwing them about and trying to man handle them.

But it is more out of frustration for new people as they may only know one move and tend to panic.

[mac]

every person that walks on to a tatami has got a diffrent style of judo

You,ve got the attacking thinking competitor (the chess player)

the counter attacker (the inexperinsed player)

and the judo player who can,t relax and uses strength (the lower grade or the person who thinks he can muscle everyone and grade on the mat this is the person i find will be the aggressor and end up injurying the lessor graded players(never lasts long at any decent judo club)

I Find it also depends on what type of club you train at, if you go to a competive judo club you have to be at a set standard as new faces means new meat in some clubs

still if its a good club you might get a hard time but their should be still no aggresion just competitors want to train hard

[Sonshu]

being in experienced - did you mean this as it sounds as most of my stand up work is from counter attacking at I think my throwing and sweeps are at a pretty good standard. I would not say I am in experienced at all just good enough to wait for the opening.

[mac]

its confidence in your ability as a judo player you know you can counter attack so why don,t you change your Randori training to improve your attacking judo. theirs know shame in getting thrown in training or at competition .if you try a diffrent style of training expect to be thrown its the only way to learn it disent matter what level you train at club or competitve.

try this

you said you were good at ash-waza,attack with good clean hard ashwaza it,ll break your opponent up dosent matter what level then pick a techniq when hes on the back foot and attack soon you,ll be the experieced judo player

ex, footsweep. seonage
footsweep tai toshi
footsweep uchi matta
remember the ashi waza has to be strong so you move the to an unbalanced position for the next attack

[Aegis]

Surely the opposite can also be true though: someone who's inexperienced may find themselves always on the attack because they know they can't counter? A person's style of fighting can be either attacking or defending, neither really indicates skill, just preference. If the person is totally unable to do one and/or the other well, then it would be fair to say that person was inexperienced.

[Sonshu]

being beaten by a counter judo player than an agressive one. Its harder winning by technique all alone.

Agression (if strength based) is the easier route and leads to the dark side.

A good counter fighter I find more difficult than a good agressive player.

[mac]

its ok being a counter player in the club but in competition a good attacking player will son sus out the counter player and will play to the ref by makeing the counter player look very passive very easill done

[Sonshu]

A good counter fighter has won the match before you make the mistake as he will know what move you are looking for and before you know it your thrown, swept, choked or tapping out for your life.

Thats the difference an avarage counter player yes but a good one - oh thats full on chess!

[mac]

the problem with the counter player is he disent attack so looks passive so the ref penilises

the expericed competitive attacker will
grip
controll
throw
their wont be time for the counter as the control will be to great

granted mistakes can be made ,but are you actually going to take that risk when the person your competin agaianst is a strong attacking player
best line of defence is attack
grip controll throw

[lwicks]

An interesting discussion.

Perhaps we can expand our word usage to make this easier to discuss and to clarify where we see a problem. To this end please consider the following definitions of Judoka.

1. Negative
This player actively trys to disrupt the efforts of their opponent, typical actions are excessive grip fighting and dropping.

2. Passive
This player does very little. Wanders quietly about on the mat doing nothing but defend.

3. Stalker
This Judoka does little but waits for opportunities to attack with effective counters and/or initial attacks.

4. Attacker
This person attcaks and looks for opportunities for attacks

5. Assertive
This person attacks and also creates opportunities for attack by "asserting" their prefered style, speed, etc.

6. Aggresive
Aggresive players attack constantly without regard for the situation. Typically using brute force over technique.

-------

So reverting back to the initial topic of this thread, what was the style of the person mentioned?

Personally I am a Stalker, if I was fitter I would probably aim for Assertive.

Lance

[Freeform]

Originally posted by lwicks
3. Stalker
This Judoka does little but waits for opportunities to attack with effective counters and/or initial attacks.


Sound like the principal of Judo to me ;)

Using your descriptions I'd fall somewhere between Stalker and Assertive, depending on who I'm fighting. A game of chess :D

Col

[lwicks]

Indeed, a mix between stalker & Assertive I feel is probably what we should be looking for.

I confess I was more of the agressive type when I was younger (& fitter :D ).

In fact I tempted to include a new category "Bull terrier", these are the players that just attack & attack & attack. Despite the quality of their opposition, their own ability, anything, just keep on attacking!
This is what I was like as a younger player of 1st Kyu or Shodan, just keep the "work rate" up.

Lance

[Sonshu]

and Stalker - not out and out aggression but strong and taking what advantages I am given or can create.

In Sombo I have encountered many aggressive and excessive grip type people. Also some technically excellent players.

[Scaramouch]

Some interesting views. Especially liked Lance's judoka "classification scheme".

As I mentioned in my initial post, I am an experienced MAist returning to Judo after 20 years. I admit that I probably fall into your aggressive (bull terrier) category at the moment, but thats not to say with continued training I'd like to aspire to stalker/assertive (in a Judo sense only though, please!). Hopefully it'll come with experience.