Learn a little about aikido

[franitis]

Hi, I'm interested in practice aikido. I'm searching a martial art with strengh and spiritual focus at the same time. I was practising tai-chi, but I didn't feel realised with it. I want to know if aikido is a good art to have spiritual and phisic balance. Thanks.

[aikiMac]

Yes, it is.

[Munners]

Why don't you try it out yourself......I think that will give you a lot more answers than reading books and asking other people's opinions.

[Poop-Loops]

Well, it costs $$ to join, and you don't learn much in the first couple of weeks. Asking people that take it is the next best thing.

PL

[moondog]

i'd like to point out though that ueshiba, the guy who founded aikido, went to china and practiced taichi and bagua for about 10 years. aikido is the combination of his taichi, bagua, and jiu jitsu practice.

[Poop-Loops]

Some other stuff too, I think.

PL

[DexterTCN]

Originally posted by moondog
i'd like to point out though that ueshiba, the guy who founded aikido, went to china and practiced taichi and bagua for about 10 years. aikido is the combination of his taichi, bagua, and jiu jitsu practice.

Never heard of that before.

[Freeform]

I'm sure lots of Tai Chi schools would love to claim that O'Sensei learned his skills with them ;)

Col

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by DexterTCN
Never heard of that before.
It's not in any bio that I've ever read.
Probably an urban legend.

[moondog]

ueshiba disappeared in china for about 10 years before formulating aikido... i think that's a known fact but i'm not sure if it's widespread... aikido's concepts are those of an internal martial art... i think the problem with a lot of aikido schools is that they focus too much on technique and have no emphasis on sensitivity... the difference between ueshiba and every other practicioner of aikido was his level of energy.. ueshiba fought as the old masters of taichi did, standing still and using very little movement to deflect and throw his opponents... the aim of all internal martial arts.... as for this being an urban legen... it very might well be.... however looking at the facts and that aikido resembles taiji and bagua so much leaves very little doubt in my mind that he studied these MAs... doesn't lessen his impact in the MA world one bit... just my opinion :) let's try to keep this friendly and open-minded

[DexterTCN]

Lord no, I meant no offence mate.

I understand what you are saying....sadly I am now juggling with rice/white wine/beef stock and parmesan....will make a longer post later.

[DexterTCN]

Michio Hikitsuchi Sensei is a 10th Dan.

I only found that out this week, had never heard of him before. He trained with O Sensei before the change in Ueshiba's philosophy:

'There was no consideration or sympathy'
'Training with him could be terrifying.'

He trained with him after it:

'His eyes were still strict, but they were no longer as scary.'
'After the war, he urged us not to attack opponents or to think of beating them up. “If you do that,” he said, “it will be the same thing as before. I have changed how we do everything.” '

...'it will be the same thing as before'....

So perhaps the change was not in waza (as is inferred by his time in China and such,) because the waza were demonstrably the same, just different. The change was in the purpose of the waza.

'He was trying to teach us to rid ourselves of the desire to fight with our opponents – and to replace it with the desire to create harmony. Aikido is the Budo of love.'

'If we harbour anger, we cannot have good relationships with one another. Our anger will infect our partners, and that must not happen.'

The change was spirtual. However I can see why it would resemble the Chinese Interal Arts movement-wise.


A good place to start the discussion? :)

[Qasim]

Originally posted by moondog
i'd like to point out though that ueshiba, the guy who founded aikido, went to china and practiced taichi and bagua for about 10 years. aikido is the combination of his taichi, bagua, and jiu jitsu practice.

What an imagination.

[moondog]

what are your views qasim?

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by moondog
i'd like to point out though that ueshiba, the guy who founded aikido, went to china and practiced taichi and bagua for about 10 years. aikido is the combination of his taichi, bagua, and jiu jitsu practice.
...
ueshiba disappeared in china for about 10 years before formulating aikido... i think that's a known fact but i'm not sure if it's widespread
Known fact, aye? Aikido comes out of O-Sensei's lessons in tai chi and bagua? Really now? What's your source? I've read a lot of aikido books and magazines, but I've not read this. I want to read what you're reading, because what you're reading is something new to me.

[Matt_Bernius]

Well,

It's a fact that O Sensei went to China as a youth (see: http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/article.asp?ArticleID=331). And during that time be began to formulate some base ideas of Aikido. As to whether or not he was influenced by Chinese Martial Arts, that's another question.

I do know a person who I work with (learn from) who believes there is a connection between the Aiki arts and Ba Gua. Whether that's due to similiar techniques or approprieation of techniques... that's a different question.

- Matt

[aikiMac]

(Youth? Well, sure, why not. But I calculate that O-Sense was 40 years old during that trip.)

[Matt_Bernius]

Oops, thanks for the catch. For some reason I ways think he was born later than he was. Any way, it definitely wasn't for 10 years.

- Matt

[moondog]

hey matt... i think if you do some research on bagua you'll find that of the three internal arts (taiji, xingyi, bagua), they favor evasion, while taiji emphasizes sticking/adhering and xingyi concentrates in linear strikes.
your friend probably connects bagua's footwork and evasion with aikido's. i did aikido before i started learning taiji and noticed a lot of similarities in aiki's goals. i saw a video of ueshiba's students in the 60s, his son (kisshomaru?) and the guy who broke off and started his own organization (i've forgotten the name), and i would have said either bagua or taiji as their MA if i hadn't known that it was aikido.
the fact that ueshiba spent some time in china and that his martial art greatly resembles the chinese martial arts in theory and application clinches it for me that he studied these arts before formulating aikido. what are your thoughts?

[DexterTCN]

To be fair your observations about Kisshomaru and Tohei are pretty much correct.

However that was only their versions/translations of aikido.

Aikido varies from physically brutal to unrealistically smooth.

OSensei's aikido went through many 'changes' in his life, which frankly is reflected in many of the fractious relationships between the different 'styles'. nm the differing personalities of his students hehe.

I myself only see your comparison with Chinese arts on the surface. I recognise the physical points you mention, but I do not concur with your conclusions. But it is interesting to hear your point of view.

[Matt_Bernius]

Originally posted by moondog
hey matt... i think if you do some research on bagua you'll find that of the three internal arts (taiji, xingyi, bagua), they favor evasion, while taiji emphasizes sticking/adhering and xingyi concentrates in linear strikes.

your friend probably connects bagua's footwork and evasion with aikido's. i did aikido before i started learning taiji and noticed a lot of similarities in aiki's goals. i saw a video of ueshiba's students in the 60s, his son (kisshomaru?) and the guy who broke off and started his own organization (i've forgotten the name), and i would have said either bagua or taiji as their MA if i hadn't known that it was aikido.

the fact that ueshiba spent some time in china and that his martial art greatly resembles the chinese martial arts in theory and application clinches it for me that he studied these arts before formulating aikido. what are your thoughts? My issue with that the similarities with Ba Gua and the Chinese’s Internal Arts also exist in Aiki Ju Jitsu (AJJ). AJJ predates Aikido and Ba Gua (which was codified in the 1850's). In fact Aiki Ju Jitsu's roots trace back to the traditional Japanese martial art of Daitoryu (which dates back to ~850AD).

It's believed that there was less cross-pollination between the Early Japanese and Chinese Arts. So it's very possible that the same concepts were being developed in both places. There's nothing necessarily magical about the concepts of the CMA. So there's no reason one can't assume that another group of geographically separate martial artists didn't reach the same base ideas on their own. This is similar to the parallel evolutions of Western and Filipino boxing that are being discussed in another thread here at MAP.

I am prepared to suggest that there might have been some cross-pollination of ideas in more recent years. It is very possible that O Sensei was exposed to the ideas of the internal CMA's and "tweaked" some of his ideas and techniques. But I do think, from my limited research, that stating that the root of Aikido is in the CMA is a very shaky assumption.

But that's just my 2 cents.

- Matt

[moondog]

i didn't know about aikijutsu... good info on that

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by moondog
the fact that ueshiba spent some time in china and that his martial art greatly resembles the chinese martial arts in theory and application clinches it for me that he studied these arts before formulating aikido. what are your thoughts?
I know of only two trips that O-Sensei made to China: the one in Matt's link, and a military excursion he took into Mongolia when he was in the Army. They were both only a few months long -- NOT ten years, or anything close to ten years.

All martial arts are similar to one another at some level. We all have hip turns somewhere, we all have triangular footpatterns somewhere, we all have upward blocks somewhere, etc. Amigo, to conclude that aikido is a result of O-Sensei's knowledge of bagua MERELY because there is a superficial similarity between the two arts is fallacious.

I've dabbled in wing chun, and I find great similarity between wing chun's center line theories and aikido's center line theories. Shall I conclude that O-Sensei studied wing chun during his 4 months of recorded travels in China? No!

I've tasted a few bites of silat, too. I see the same parries in silat and in aikido, and I see the same concept of leverage in aikido and silat. Shall I conclude that O-Sensei spent time in Indonesia studying silat? No!

Again, I'd like to read the biographies that tell of his bagua or tai chi studies. That's not something that I've read about. One would expect that the Doshu and the first generation students would have recorded it for us in observance of their duty to preserve the true history of the art.

[moondog]

i'm not talking about the external movements.
aikido's principles, at least the ones we were taught, emphasize on not using force, or independent movement to neutralize. rather it says to use the whole body as a unit. this is the fundamental difference between the external and internal martial arts, to learn how to move your body as one and not independently. also the emphasis on using qi, rather than force, to neutralize/subdue an opponent. this is the similarity that i'm talking about between aikido and the internal chinese martial arts, not physical techniques. the human body can only do so many things, obviously certain movements in one MA will be present in another, even though there has been no cross-pollination of ideas. it is the philosophy that is unique, and aiki's philosophy on combat greatly echoes what is said in taiji, bagua, and xingyi regarding body mechanics, qi, etc.
this is what leads me to believe that aikido has some roots (not all) in the internal CMA.

[aikiMac]

Or maybe aikido has roots in Daito-ryu aiki-jujitsu and Japanese weapons.

Aiki-jujitsu emphasizes not using force or independent movement to neutralize. Rather, aiki-jujitsu teaches one to use his whole body as a unit and emphasizes using qi/ki/chi rather than force to neutralize/subdue an opponent. Japanese weapon arts also train one to use the entire body, and to go around the opponent's blow rather than clashing head-on. (Yes, I just tracked your language.)

Most if not all of the basic movements in aikido have a template in Japanese fencing. Irimi and tenkan foot patterns are in the Japanese sword. Irimi-nage, kokyu-nage, kaiten-nage, sheo-nage, and kote-gaeshi are in the Japanese sword. Ikkyo, sankyo, and yonkyo are in the sword. Blah blah blah, if it's in aikido, I think you'll find a template in the sword or in aiki-jujitsu or in both. So maybe, just maybe, O-Sensei got his ideas from his combined studies of theology, aiki-jujitsu, and other JMA, not from studies of CMA. Maybe that's why we don't have any records of O-Sensei living for years and years in China. Maybe that's why the arts listed in the biographical section of aikido books are all JMA (sumo, sword, spear, jo, bayonet, multiple jujitsu and aiki-jujitsu styles). Eh?

I too see similarities between aikido and various CMA. But I see similarities between aikido and silat, and between aikido and FMA too.

[moondog]

it's very possible that i'm wrong.. like i told matt, i wasn't aware of aikijutsu... i've read past articles though on the aikido and CMA connection (forgotten where as i'm incredibly fogetfull), so this is all the regurgitation of what i've read previously

[Virtuous]

it's very possible that i'm wrong.. like i told matt, i wasn't aware of aikijutsu...

Morihei Ueshiba was one of Sokaku Takeda's (34th(?) successor of daito ryu aiki jujutsu) prized students. I always thought this was the defacto martial root of aikido.

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by Virtuous
The more you know, the more you know you dont know
I just noticed this signature. It's the story of my life this month. (sigh)

[kingkill]

I would say that there are a lot of similarities between the suptle movements of tai chi and aikido but as far as I understand and have read on AIKIDO.com under General and Did Morihei Ueshiba Invent aikido there is a section that is as follows:

"I don't think Ueshiba invented anything. What I think he was is, one of the greatest synthesizers in the history of Budo. NONE of the techniques or particular applications found in Aikido is newer than at least 400 years old, and since I can show you proof of most of them going back to pyramidsof Egypt, I tend to suspect that all of them go back that far."

"What Ueshiba did, was take a very brutal art, Daito Ryu, as taught by Takeda Sokaku, and meld it with the philosophy of Omoto-kyo. This melding is what made it possible for him, and for those who have followed him, to extend their use of it's principles to every corner of life"

[Amakasashi]

yes it is, that was the reason i started aikido, you just have find a dojo that emphasizes the sensitivity and the spiritual aspect of it, the 3 i have practiced at do very well. If you have any questions ask.

[aikiwolfie]

hmm do i stirr the pot more or just let it bubble .... muhahahahaha

Well here are the facts O Sensei was an experienced and accomplished martial artist. Like any martial artist worth their salt, O Sensei took the best bits of everything he knew and created a style he was happy with. After years of experimentation he eventually settled on Aikido. The Way of Harmony with Ki.

Where O Sensei got his ideas from is irrelivant. It's in the past.

Now the fact that there are similarities between centuries old Aikido techniques and Chinese martial arts is hardly surprising. There has been a curtural exchange between Japan and China since Japan has existed. Zen Budism originaly came from China. Doesn't Zen Budism have a huge influence on Aikido? Does any body practice Ki Meditation?

Cultural exchanges aside, lets face it, there are only so many ways you can bend a body and only so many joints to be locked and only so many ways to lock them. Sombody some where will eventually have the same idea as sombody else.

Take the humble telephone. It was invented virtualy at the same time by two inventors worlds apart who had no contact with each other. What are the odds? But we see it happening again and again throught human history.

So arguments and descussion over who invented what are pretty meaningless.

Dam I'm getting good at these long posts. I just have to learn how to spell and I'll be running this site lol. Ok nuff stirring the pot.

[Amakasashi]

honestly who really cares how he came up with aikido, the fact is that aikido is different from every other martial art because it still is a true budo, Yeah he was in china, he may have studdied tai chi there or not, I don't know if we will ever know exactly, but it really doesn't matter. He may have taken matters from tai chi and put them into a melting pot of the other martial arts he knew. However, what really is aikido, the technique or the spiritual foundations. I believe that it is the spiritual foundations and that aikidos is the physical manifestation of these foundations ( I believe a main foundation of it is the kotadama (spelling not too sure on, which I think is japanese)). How he truely came up with aikido will only be truely known by o'sensei, howerver his aikido did change, and it is still changing, maturing itself into different budo with each student because each student takes something from aikido and puts something back into it, whether it be a thought, feeling or a rendition of a technique, that is the beuty of aikido is the differences and that is also the beauty in life. The question shouldn't be what is aikido parts of, but rather what does aikido mean to you, aikido to me is the realization of how beautiful life can be through dilligent training in mind body and spirit. Sorry for the ramble.

[aikiwolfie]

lol ramble all you like lol ... but that's exactly what I'm getting at .... if you want to learn the art then feel free to join in ... if you only want to critise from the side lines .... go be an arm chair supporter of yer local football team.

[Amakasashi]

exactly aikiwolfie