Steroids

[jaz86]

What do you lot think of steroids?

I am seriously pondering doing a cycle just to get a boost, i have seen so many people use them and get great results.

I recently had some winstrol tablets and my bench press went up 15 pounds in 3 weeks but their more for cutting weight.

The only thing currently stopping me is i dont like the idea of injecting

Would you ever take them?

[Spinmaster]

Personally I'd rather just train hard. I don't see the sense to tearing up my body for a bit of gain that comes with bad side effects.

[Custom Volusia]

I wouldn't personally do them...BUT HERE (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84085&highlight=steroids) is a thread about them that is very informative I think.

[jaz86]

cheers i will read it now

[Kuma]

Usually the people seeking to use steroids for the first time are those who need at least several more years of solid weight training under their belts before they should even think of that. Aside from all the physical and psychological side effects, it's silly to use it as a "quick fix" when all you really need to do is work harder. If you're deadlifting 700 pounds you can think about it; otherwise you just need to train more.

[Coges]

I think the big question is why??? You're 22 (if your profile age is correct) and I can't imagine you've reached anywhere near your natural potential to require something to give you the edge.

Why the rush? Is it just to increase your numbers to brag about? Is it to put on some extra size? Like Kuma said, are you lifting extraordinary numbers and need it to take that extra step?

Me personally, I am no where near my natural potential. Having said that I am not anti-steroids because I think they play a part and I also think that anyone who's anyone in the sports industry is on something anyway.

[Mitch]

As an alternative viewpoint, when staining yourself mahogany and watching your testicles disappear seems reasonable it may be time to step away...

Mitch :)

[liero]

Just do it, forget about the negative consequences or what these people say.

anyway its not like it costs alot or anything!

note: Uncharacteristic Post of Bad Advice

[jaz86]

well im 23 this month, its just annoying seeing all these guys do steroids and within a few months they are outlifting me by miles.

Ive been told that as long as you dont abuse them, and have a good post cycle therapy, they are as safe as houses.

[Fish Of Doom]

from a practical standpoint: why do you NEED steroids? you're basically considering artificially maintained temporary strength which you'll never use, and which will fade unless you keep on the steroids, which will wreck your body, when you could work a bit harder and get results that will actually stay with you. it's not like you work pushing tractors or anything like that.

[Gary]

well im 23 this month, its just annoying seeing all these guys do steroids and within a few months they are outlifting me by miles.

Ive been told that as long as you dont abuse them, and have a good post cycle therapy, they are as safe as houses.
If your knowledge of them is based on what somebody has told you then you need to do more research and I don't mean read the page on wikipedia. There are a hell of a lot more issues than just getting your natural testosterone back up with PCT and abuse is a very relative thing, some people would classify any use of steroids as abuse.

How long have you been lifting, how much weight are you lifting, how much progress have you made in the last 6 months, what changes to diet/routine have you made to improve your rate of progress, are you already getting enough protein every day and tracking your diet, have you had your blood work measured to flag up any problems with current hormone levels, cholesterol levels and the like, how close is your current fat free mass to what you can naturally expect (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/fat-free-mass-index-in-users-and-nonusers-of-anabolic-androgen-steroids-research-review.html) and is your source for the steroids reliable?

If you're looking at oral steroids are they a methylated form of a compound and are you taking appropriate measures such as liver support? If it's an intravenous steroid are you able to source clean needles from a reputable source or clinic, are you aware of injection sites and sterilising them, what to do in the case of an abcess or other infection, what to do if you fall ill mid-cycle, do you have someone else informed of what you are doing in case you're hospitalised and the doctors need to be informed, how to avoid hitting a nerve like your sciatic nerve, what to do if you have a reaction to your chosen drug, are you aware of gyno, hair loss, acne, problems with sex drive and other androgenic effects and whether these are a factor or not for you, what kind of PCT do you need and how much time do you need between cycles, will they interfere with any other medication you're taking or may take?

This sounds like a lot but you should no what you're doing before you touch them, they're powerful drugs and not something you should just try because other people are lifting or growing more than you. If you're serious you need months of research to understand them properly, plenty of people do well over a year of background reading before they start.

I'm not saying they're good or bad necessarily but you really do need to know what you're doing instead of dabbling with them like you might with creatine or some other supplement.

[holyheadjch]

Why do you care about juice heads out lifting you? If they ever give you grief just politely point out that their future children will have to cheat off the stupid kids

[JaxMMA]

So you would do steroids just so you can brag like other who do steroids? Talk about monkey see- monkey do...

[Knight_Errant]

I agree that you should be aware of all the facts, however:

What we do is not just about looking good or lifting big weights. It's a church of health, and people who take steroids are pissing into the font.

[Doublejab]

Steriods can cause very unpredictable side effects that vary hugely from person to person. Its not worth the risk.

[Mitch]

DUDE!! YOUR TESTICLES!!!

Mitch

[Custom Volusia]

Listen to the people that have done their research, then do your own. It is a personal decision that no one else can make for you. Really examine your reasons though. If you aren't competing, then what are they really going to do for you?

There are more people that will just stand up and scream THEY ARE BAD!!! NEVER DO THEM!!! then people that will give you honest advice about them (especially in the US where the GOVT works hard to make the citizens think they are the worst thing ever). Ignore the masses, learn the truth as it would apply to you (i.e. the recommended doctor visits/tests), then make a decision.

[Kuma]

well im 23 this month, its just annoying seeing all these guys do steroids and within a few months they are outlifting me by miles.

Ive been told that as long as you dont abuse them, and have a good post cycle therapy, they are as safe as houses.

You can go far with a good diet, proper training, and plenty of rest. It's usually one of those three lacking that hold people back. I train with a number of powerlifters at my gym, guys who are 198 pounds and benching well over 500 pounds and where an 800-pound deadlift is occasionally seen. Once you're to an elite level like that, if you want to do steroids then yes it's your choice, but first and foremost you have to get there in the first place. If you're benching 225 pounds and just want to do 245 pounds, steroids are the last place you should be looking right now.

[EvilhomerNZ]

There is a lot of negative press/opinions/heresay about steroids. Honestly I'm one of the people who is putting in more than a years research on them. Side effects and negative impacts are a realistic expectation, however no more so than other high end drugs and most of which are completely reversible when you cycle off.

As much as I respect the opinions of most on this board the largest portion of people commenting on steroids here clearly don't understand them and (understandably) are working on everything they've heard throughout their lives.

FWIW I second the opinions of CV, Kuma and Coma, research this stuff. Don't rule them out but realistically evaluate the need. You are young, if you have a solid diet and good workout plan you can still get very quick results without steroids. Do a good deal of research and discussion with some professionals (sports related and ideally ones that can support their arguments for or against) and if you still feel there is a realistic need then do it properly.

Just FYI, steroids are like sex ed.. screaming OMG! DONT HAS TEH SEKS IT GIVES TEH AIDZ, will not actually stop people doing it. Research and education, let people make their own decisions but please give them what they need to make a well-informed decision rather than just covering your eyes and spouting nonsense.

[jaz86]

I have decided against a proper course for the time being. By proper i mean a testosterone based course like sus and deca for example.

As i think i am a bit young for that yet and dont want to stop my bones growing like test does.

However i am going to do a cycle on winstrol tablets as they are relatively mild dont aromatise and give you decent lean gains with not many side effects with the added bonus they are cheap. im going to re evaluate in a year and maybe do a proper course if i feel it is right for me then.

[Ranzan]

Do you enjoy sex? Steroids limit your ability to get your man organ well "prepared". My bench went up 40 pounds in 3 weeks thats from eating right and working reallllyyy hard steroids are for little girls who can't do it themselves.

[Gary]

There is a lot of bad advice here, the post above this one is a prime example. There's no generic steroid that will give a 'steroid side effect'. Each one is a different drug and as such has a different effect, often contrasting with each other. Unfortunately the people usually throwing about such generic advice are usually the ones that know the least about them, since they have no motivation to learn.

[Yohan]

My opinion pretty much boils down to this:

The risks for taking steroids are high. Therefore, if you want to take that risk to improve your performance, there should be some compensation. The only compensation you are going to receive are personal satisfaction, unless you are a professional athlete. In that case, you will receive monetary compensation for your performance increases.

If you are happy with the personal satisfaction you will gain from taking steroids, do it. Otherwise, leave it alone.

[Ranzan]

There is a lot of bad advice here, the post above this one is a prime example. There's no generic steroid that will give a 'steroid side effect'. Each one is a different drug and as such has a different effect, often contrasting with each other. Unfortunately the people usually throwing about such generic advice are usually the ones that know the least about them, since they have no motivation to learn.

Ok dokey a little hostile are we? Well when i was younger and stupider i also considered taking Steroids I did my research, from what this guy is saying he implies ANABOLIC STEROIDS, which is not just one shot poof your done it is taken in combination with many other drugs to even out the effects. One of the biggest reasons I did not do them was my above post, I felt the urge to help my fellow man by supplying him with that tidbit of information. I do not see how that was bad advice? Would you like to loose the ability to make your junk work? I sure as hell wouldn't. To the origional poster, the steroids is not the bad part, sure it has side effects but when taken alone you do not get the results steroids are believed to have it is mixed with others than vary from where you get them to get that wonderful effect. My cousin took steroids for a decent amount of time; now he has all kinds of problems such as and not limited to, kidney damage, liver damage, severe lack in natural testosterone, fertility problems, the list goes on. I will get in touch with him in the next couple days and ask him a few questions if you would like jaz I can shoot you a pm with some more specifics and effects of steroids.

Ranzan

[CosmicFish]

Ok dokey a little hostile are we? Well when i was younger and stupider i also considered taking Steroids I did my research, from what this guy is saying he implies ANABOLIC STEROIDS, which is not just one shot poof your done it is taken in combination with many other drugs to even out the effects. One of the biggest reasons I did not do them was my above post, I felt the urge to help my fellow man by supplying him with that tidbit of information. I do not see how that was bad advice? Would you like to loose the ability to make your junk work? I sure as hell wouldn't. To the origional poster, the steroids is not the bad part, sure it has side effects but when taken alone you do not get the results steroids are believed to have it is mixed with others than vary from where you get them to get that wonderful effect. My cousin took steroids for a decent amount of time; now he has all kinds of problems such as and not limited to, kidney damage, liver damage, severe lack in natural testosterone, fertility problems, the list goes on. I will get in touch with him in the next couple days and ask him a few questions if you would like jaz I can shoot you a pm with some more specifics and effects of steroids.

Ranzan
It's clear from your allegation of hostility that you have an emotional involvement in this. You might want to consider why this is so. If someone else chooses to use steroids then surely it's their business. And if they're stupid enough not to do their research beforehand then surely that's their lookout. Besides, it's a little hypocritical to accuse someone of being hostile after making an ad hominem like:

steroids are for little girls who can't do it themselves.

The fact that steroids will accelerate muscle and strength gains does not automatically mean that you are not doing the work yourself. One of the effects of steroids is that they increase your recovery time, allowing you to train more frequently. That means in order to get the most out of them you have to put in more effort, not less.

Coma's point was essentially that your post was a generalisation. More importantly, it was inaccurate. He then went on to explain why. I've only picked up a smattering of knowledge on them myself, but I do know that there are indeed steroids that will prevent you from being able to get an erection. However there are also steroids that wil do the exact opposite. Older men who are suffering from erectile dysfunction caused by hypogonadism, for example, may be prescribed exogenous testosterone (an anabolic steroid) to cure the problem.

That said, it should be stressed that they can be dangerous and many have serious side effects. Anyone who is considering trying them really should do their homework first, and a good many who are considering them are probably doing so for the wrong reason. IMO, of course.

[Gary]

Ok dokey a little hostile are we? Well when i was younger and stupider i also considered taking Steroids I did my research, from what this guy is saying he implies ANABOLIC STEROIDS, which is not just one shot poof your done it is taken in combination with many other drugs to even out the effects.
Hostile? Hardly. I called it a bad post because you're generalising a complex subject.

If it's affecting your sex drive I suspect what you're looking for is androgenic steroids not necessarily anabolic steroids. From your description of one shot and your done it sounds like you're talking about corticosteroids, not something anyone would consider for strength gains. If you want to just randomly pick steroids and group class them with an effect why not tell people that dietary cholesterol will decrease sex drive, even if it does the opposite?
One of the biggest reasons I did not do them was my above post, I felt the urge to help my fellow man by supplying him with that tidbit of information. I do not see how that was bad advice? Would you like to loose the ability to make your junk work? I sure as hell wouldn't. To the origional poster, the steroids is not the bad part, sure it has side effects but when taken alone you do not get the results steroids are believed to have it is mixed with others than vary from where you get them to get that wonderful effect. My cousin took steroids for a decent amount of time; now he has all kinds of problems such as and not limited to, kidney damage, liver damage, severe lack in natural testosterone, fertility problems, the list goes on. I will get in touch with him in the next couple days and ask him a few questions if you would like jaz I can shoot you a pm with some more specifics and effects of steroids.

Ranzan
Your cousin is one up on me, despite having learnt a lot about steroids I've never gone that route myself. The difference is that I wanted to be able to present an unbiased opinion backed up by a real depth of knowledge.

You continue to generalise steroids as a single generic substance, backed up with 'other drugs to even out the effects'. Often a combination of steroids are used as they can help reduce side effects. What effects? The ones your cousin is suffering from? Why bother with the ancillaries if when you take 'steroids' you will suffer from all these effects. Your post is contradictory, you say you can even out the effects then go on to list everything that happened to your cousin as a warning against their use. How long is a decent amount of time? Even this varies hugely between substances, one will have barely started to work after 3 weeks whereas another will be almost finished with an appropriate cycle. Likewise, one drug will often be injected for 12 weeks in a cycle, but do this with some of the oral drugs and you'll be running a lot of risk.

This is why my post may have seemed unfair to you (and the other posts I referenced). You did, and continue to be extremely general in your posts. Using the words anabolic steroids in capital letters does not lend your posts the depth of knowledge on the subject you think it does, rather it seems like you have picked up just enough on the subject to justify whatever reason you did your original research.

[Custom Volusia]

I am currently taking a class on Sport and Exercise Physiology (mid-term this week actually..) and my big paper in the class is on Steriods. I am NOT taking the stance of 'they are bad no matter what' so my paper should be a lot different then almost everyone else in the class (most students are American).

I will know even more about this when I am done and I will post anything different that I find (with links) when I am done. I might actually post the paper up as well to get opinons on it.

[EvilhomerNZ]

I, for one, would love to read the paper when you're done CV!

If that's cool with you of course :)

[Ranzan]

Ok when i said one shot your done i was using that in the sense, thats what some people think, than i went on to describe what taking steroids for gain involves thank you. Not taking steroids does not make your opinion unbiased, to me there is no such this as no bias on a subject. Yes I am biased on this subject openly admitted,yes my cousin is biased( the length of time was 5 ears by the way) Anabolic steroids is not broad... it is the class of steroids commonly used for enhancement, im not saying there are not specific kinds of anabolic steroids, some are used for medicinal purposes. Taking taking the base components of anabolic steroids will not get the results people usually think about, like i said taken with other substances such as estrogen inhibitors as anabolic steroids will convert to estrogen. Most men combat the temporary lack in production of testosterone after a cycle with low dosages of a purely testosterone based steroid. I said even out the side effects in a sense of immediate/shortly after use effects IE the shrinking of a mans testicles. To my knowledge anabolic steroids, AAS, (anabolic-androgenic steroids) yeild both anabolic and androgenic effects,(once again speaking in terms of the anabolic steroid commonly used for enhancement). I was not randomly picking an effect, as I said before i was picking an effect that stood out the most to me during my decision making.

Ranzan

[Stuart H]

I agree that you should first and foremost educate yourself in the benefits and dangers of steroid use, e.g. how to cycle them, finding reputable sources and avoiding counterfeits, mitigating potential side effects (use of HCG to avoid any testicle shrinking for example).

HOWEVER, guys like us in our early twenties really don't have an issue with testosterone levels. I can say with conviction that if you evaluate your training and eating, you will find one or both falling short. Heavy barbell lifts and a huge calorie increase will see you through to dramatic weight and strength gains - I'm talking around 50 pounds (http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showpost.php?p=74040&postcount=1) in a matter of months (http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showpost.php?p=80239&postcount=15).

[shuyun3]

if you need to take "something" do something that starts on the grass roots first.

you're kinda like trying to put jet fuel on a scooter. you'll be limited by your engine.

Start maxing out your options before you go steroids. Try eating more (balanced carbs, fats, vitamins protein), grunt or scream in your sets (more oxygen and may help release adrenaline. Look at your weaker limb during the lift (like a bench press it helps focus there). Look at the sexy lady (not too much :) )or sexy poster in the gym helps with testosterone. Have a really enthusiastic gym buddy.

And finally why would yo want to lift heavier weights? The correlation of heavy weights and big muscles is not proportional. Olympic power lifters lift insane amounts of weight and they rarely look like a body builder or maybe not at all. There's a lot to be gained from proper form and steady gains.

Then if you want to start supplementing well there's like creatine which will give you more endurance for workouts, you can do more sets and reps but not as altering as steroids. And finally maybe ask a nutritionist and not just some guys in the gym. You might find a suitable track to take

[Yohan]

I agree that you should first and foremost educate yourself in the benefits and dangers of steroid use, e.g. how to cycle them, finding reputable sources and avoiding counterfeits, mitigating potential side effects (use of HCG to avoid any testicle shrinking for example).

HOWEVER, guys like us in our early twenties really don't have an issue with testosterone levels. I can say with conviction that if you evaluate your training and eating, you will find one or both falling short. Heavy barbell lifts and a huge calorie increase will see you through to dramatic weight and strength gains - I'm talking around 50 pounds (http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showpost.php?p=74040&postcount=1) in a matter of months (http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showpost.php?p=80239&postcount=15).

HOLY SUCKING SPIT!

THOSE ARE SOME GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAINS!!

[Yohan]

And finally why would yo want to lift heavier weights? The correlation of heavy weights and big muscles is not proportional.

Lol . . . wut?

Olympic power lifters lift insane amounts of weight and they rarely look like a body builder or maybe not at all.

Oh yeah, I know, they look more like the guy below. Oh weight, he's HUUUUUUUUUUUGE, and the only reason he doesn't look like a bodybuilder is because he's got faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat on his booooooooodyyyyyyyyy. Oh my god, but they have weight classes, which means they aren't all that big, which means I must be wrooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong.

Sorry for the sarcasm. :evil:

Seriously dude, check out the list of olympic records: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_olympic_records_in_weightlifting

Strangely enough, as the dudes get bigger, the amount of weight they lift increases. So, I would say, this is evidence for the correlation between heavier weights and bigger muscles.

The rest of the stuff you said was totally awesome:

Try eating more (balanced carbs, fats, vitamins protein), grunt or scream in your sets (more oxygen and may help release adrenaline. Look at your weaker limb during the lift (like a bench press it helps focus there). Look at the sexy lady (not too much )or sexy poster in the gym helps with testosterone. Have a really enthusiastic gym buddy.

Eat more
Grunt and scream when you lift
Check out hot chicks
Get a lifting partner

That's some many stuff right there!

[shuyun3]

Lol . . . wut?
Oh yeah, I know, they look more like the guy below. Oh weight, he's HUUUUUUUUUUUGE, and the only reason he doesn't look like a bodybuilder is because he's got faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat on his booooooooodyyyyyyyyy. Oh my god, but they have weight classes, which means they aren't all that big, which means I must be wrooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong.


First of all thanks for both the criticism and the praise.

I should have quit while I was ahead on that one instead of the adjective "huge" I meant to say muscular and I'm not referring to just the size but to looking built.

I should have used muscular, to mean that just lifting weights won't turn you into the next model for a Greek statue. I meant there's lots more to shaping muscle than just heavy weights. Thus defeating the point of steroids which is just to get you pumping more iron when stuff like checking your form is more important.

Mental note: I gotta be careful around yohan. :)

[Custom Volusia]

You can't 'shape' muscle. You can cut fat to expose the muscle better (pretty sure that is what you mean), but there are not magical and mystical exercises that will allow you to alter the shape of your muscles other then increasing or decreasing the size. Your muscles are the shape that they are.

[CosmicFish]

You can't 'shape' muscle. You can cut fat to expose the muscle better (pretty sure that is what you mean), but there are not magical and mystical exercises that will allow you to alter the shape of your muscles other then increasing or decreasing the size. Your muscles are the shape that they are.
Synthol? :whistle:

[shuyun3]

no i mean you shape the way they look.

so a ninety pound weakling with a skinny chest spaghetti arms, working out 4 times a week with increased protein intake, progressing in weights, reps and sets attacking one muscle group with 4 different exercises per training day....

cut to 4 years and 150 pounds later +10 inches on their bicep and 15 on their thighs have the same shape of muscle from when they began. Is that what you're saying? Because when you increase size somewhere the over all look, the shape will change.

Body building is also called body sculpting for a reason. You mean to say those guys competing in Mr. universe just work out and hope their muscles are the right shape and proportion? Since they can't shape muscle there can't be any purpose to the workout they pump iron and hope for the best. Is that it?

[Kwan Jang]

The origin and insertion of the muscle are determined by genetics. No amount of training will ever change this. You can alter the visual appearance of major muscle groups by how fully you develop them or not. For example, if you were to fully develop your lats, but not fully develop your rhomboids, your back would have a different "look/shape" than if both were fully developed. This does not mean that doing preacher curls will give you longer biceps or even more developed "lower" biceps despite the gym myth that it does, though you will feel it more there.

For myself, my shoulders and biceps grow very easily and I could grow these (esp. the shoulders) to nearly ridiculous proportions if I chose to. My triceps OTOH are much less cooperative due to genetics. If I let my biceps grow to their full potential, I would likely have 23" arms, but my proportional balance would be way off. BTW, this is NOT just a aesthetics issue, but rather one of function and performance. There is a natural strength curve and proportional balance to the body and when you get outside of that, it hinders athletic performance and increases the risk of injury.

This is why IMO bodybuilding is a superior form of training than either powerlifting or olympic lifting when it is done correctly. Note that I am speaking of correct bodybuilding as a natural training method for athletes rather than as a competitive sport of going up on stage to display a physique. With powerlifting (which I have competed in quite successfully BTW) and olympic lifting, the norm is to mostly develop the muscles needed for your major lifts out of proportion to the other major muscle groups. There is often a token effort given to the "asistance exercises", but rarely much work at all to muscle groups that aren't that involved in the competitive lifts. For athletic performance, this breaks down the kinetic chain that is what really enhances athletic performance. Also bodybuilding (natural BB as a training method) involves a very strong emphasis on nutrition, cardio, and flexibility as neccesary parts of the training. While there are a few individuals in the other two strength sports that engage in those other aspects of training, it is not an inherent part of those. in contrast, some BB's may choose to avoid those aspects of the training, but it really is part of the method and it is to their detriment that they do (though some use chemical means to compensate for this).

Over the last few years, many peoples views of bodybuilding has been defined by not what it is, but rather how it has been defined/described to them by rival camps. Often those rival camps of training methods are also trying to sell their programs and equipment and play on people's ingnorance and pre-concieved notions. The truth/scientific facts are that (on the same person) a larger muscle is a stronger one. That higher reps do give higher strength and performance with greater endurance. Devloping all major muscle groups in proportion and along the body's natural strength curve makes a "stronger kinetic chain" and enhances athletic (including martial arts) performance and helps prevent injuries.

[Stuart H]

With powerlifting (which I have competed in quite successfully BTW) and olympic lifting, the norm is to mostly develop the muscles needed for your major lifts out of proportion to the other major muscle groups. There is often a token effort given to the "asistance exercises", but rarely much work at all to muscle groups that aren't that involved in the competitive lifts.

This is an unusual opinion - I've never seen a high-level powerlifter or Olympic lifter with significant disproportionate development, unlike a lot of guys with just developed biceps and pecs that strut around commercial gyms. I would point to Westside Barbell as a good example of lifters using varied exercises beyond the three powerlifts.


For athletic performance, this breaks down the kinetic chain that is what really enhances athletic performance.

Performance in what endeavour? The Olympic athletes competing in weightlifting don't seem to have any problems with their performance.

That higher reps do give higher strength and performance with greater endurance.

Can you clarify this?

[Kwan Jang]

I have been a competitive BB and PL since the mid-80's and the disproportionate development has been the norm in my observations. The gym rats or 1-2 guys (chest and bicep) are not bodybuilders or following any BB routine. Actually, many of them are influenced by High School football coaches in the USA and the rest by ego. The nature of both PL and OL is to maximize the strength/power for the specific lifts that they perform. While many good and esp. elite PL's and OL's do perform the assistance exercises and maintain a kinetic chain to an extent, it is not a major focus of the sports. In BB, it IS a major focus because proportion and symetry are part of the judging criteria.

I do consider OL a good training method if someone has very limited time for weight training. However, it is not nearly as good a training method as BB for enhancing your overall athletic performance. Of course, it should be mentioned that both PL and OL movements are at the core of good BB done properly. When I am speaking of performance, I am talking about as a training method for carry over into other areas of athletics, including martial arts.

To clarify, there are three components of a muscle cell that are effected by exercise: the myofibrils, the mitochondria and the sarcoplasm. All three have their own specific threshhold both for development and performance. By doing high reps with heavy weight, there is a LOT of carryover for your athletic performance. Guys like Tom Platz (also myself) have peformed over 20 reps of full squats with 500 lbs. I have also done low reps (two) with 805 (and this Monday at age 45 got 2x with 815, but I can't count that since it was questionable if I broke parrallel. My 805 was ATG, but I am still patting myself on the head since this was w/o a suit and I am drug-free). The high rep work helps not only with explosive, off the line power like the low rep work, but greater highlevel performance for a longer duration.

[Kuma]

I agree with KJ in some respects. Some people just concentrate on numbers: 300, 400, 500, etc. However, if you're also getting more REPS, you're still getting stronger. This is why a program like Wendler's 5-3-1 approach works so well: it's giving you a rep range as a goal (i.e. 315x5) but then encourages you to do as many reps as you can on the final set to push past your limits.

Getting strong is easy. Overthinking it and trying to do it the "easy way" is where people go wrong.

[seiken steve]

im amazed how much more there is to steriods just by reading this and using google.
i am so ignorant to the subject i will not make comment to ether side.
i do ask tho. you are clearly fustrated by being out lifted by the steriod users, who do you lift for? yourself? people watching? blokes down the pub?

[sakumeikan]

What do you lot think of steroids?

I am seriously pondering doing a cycle just to get a boost, i have seen so many people use them and get great results.

I recently had some winstrol tablets and my bench press went up 15 pounds in 3 weeks but their more for cutting weight.

The only thing currently stopping me is i dont like the idea of injecting

Would you ever take them?

Dont go there.Steroid usage has serious side effects.Why not simply train with increased weights /less sets /less reps?If you eat well, get your sleep and train regularly you will get bigger[if thats your need] naturally.It takes time.Good luck.

[Rhizome]

your still young enough to probably not have exhausted every avenue before looking towards strong chemical enhancement,.

have you supplemented with anything more natural such as creatine, beta-alanine, ecdysterone/turkesterone and such.

Unless your wanting to compete its probably not a good idea.

[Sparkle]

What do you lot think of steroids?

I am seriously pondering doing a cycle just to get a boost, i have seen so many people use them and get great results.

I recently had some winstrol tablets and my bench press went up 15 pounds in 3 weeks but their more for cutting weight.

The only thing currently stopping me is i dont like the idea of injecting

Would you ever take them?

Alright, somebody who reads what you posted in your OP and has either seriously looked into taking steroids or has done them and either had success or failure would tell you that you need to definitely do some serious research.

I'm 22, a young fellah and I was thinking about taking them. Why? Because I have a job where some day soon being able to add a ridiculou ammount of strength/endurance could benefit me. But I didn't just jump into it, I did a whole lot of research. Let me ask you this, do you even know what different kinds of Testosterone there is and how to use them in a cycle? It's not "just take it every day" with each kind, you have to know what they do. Do you know how to train to get what you want? Are you even disciplined enough to have the correct diet while you're on them? Do you know any of the drugs to take if you start to get gyno a couple weeks into it? Do you know anything about Post Cycle Therapy? When to do it and where to aquire it?

I did a hell of a lot of research on it, and still consider myself very ignorant to knowing what needs to be done. So what did I do? I bought what I thought would be good based off what I learned, sat it on the counter, realized I didn't know enough, had nobody who had done them around me to school me through it, and threw them away. Threw a lot of money away too. I believe I'm the smarter man for it. I just don't know enough, there was too much risk without having anyone around to help me out with it, and really, when I got my diet down right and started hitting the gym hard with regular supplements like protein and fish oil and whatnot, I started getting real good gains.

Don't get me wrong, I think steroids have had a lot of bad propaganda behind them and people spout stuff about the negative effects when they really have NO clue about them and the depth in which people have studied, used, and progressed with them. I think they're just as stupid as people who know nothing and want to do them. I will use steroids in my future because I'm very much into working out and making gains, but I'm not near that point neither will I have as much of a benefit from them at 22 since my natural test. is so high. So I'm going to wait. You should do the same. If you're not making huge gains I can almost garuntee it's because you don't know how to train for what you want, and you don't know how to eat to make the gains in whatever you want.

My advice, start studying up on steroids now, talk to people, and then go to T-Nation.com and start reading their stuff (that's my personal favorite anyway). They have a wealth of information and when I've followed some of the ideas I got from them, like HIIT and Tabatta, I've always had awesome results. Like losing 40 lbs in two months like it was nothing. So research, learn what you want, find somebody to help you with it, and learn to do what you want to do without having to use them.

[Kuma]

Alright, somebody who reads what you posted in your OP and has either seriously looked into taking steroids or has done them and either had success or failure would tell you that you need to definitely do some serious research.

I'm 22, a young fellah and I was thinking about taking them. Why? Because I have a job where some day soon being able to add a ridiculou ammount of strength/endurance could benefit me. But I didn't just jump into it, I did a whole lot of research. Let me ask you this, do you even know what different kinds of Testosterone there is and how to use them in a cycle? It's not "just take it every day" with each kind, you have to know what they do. Do you know how to train to get what you want? Are you even disciplined enough to have the correct diet while you're on them? Do you know any of the drugs to take if you start to get gyno a couple weeks into it? Do you know anything about Post Cycle Therapy? When to do it and where to aquire it?

I did a hell of a lot of research on it, and still consider myself very ignorant to knowing what needs to be done. So what did I do? I bought what I thought would be good based off what I learned, sat it on the counter, realized I didn't know enough, had nobody who had done them around me to school me through it, and threw them away. Threw a lot of money away too. I believe I'm the smarter man for it. I just don't know enough, there was too much risk without having anyone around to help me out with it, and really, when I got my diet down right and started hitting the gym hard with regular supplements like protein and fish oil and whatnot, I started getting real good gains.

Don't get me wrong, I think steroids have had a lot of bad propaganda behind them and people spout stuff about the negative effects when they really have NO clue about them and the depth in which people have studied, used, and progressed with them. I think they're just as stupid as people who know nothing and want to do them. I will use steroids in my future because I'm very much into working out and making gains, but I'm not near that point neither will I have as much of a benefit from them at 22 since my natural test. is so high. So I'm going to wait. You should do the same. If you're not making huge gains I can almost garuntee it's because you don't know how to train for what you want, and you don't know how to eat to make the gains in whatever you want.

My advice, start studying up on steroids now, talk to people, and then go to T-Nation.com and start reading their stuff (that's my personal favorite anyway). They have a wealth of information and when I've followed some of the ideas I got from them, like HIIT and Tabatta, I've always had awesome results. Like losing 40 lbs in two months like it was nothing. So research, learn what you want, find somebody to help you with it, and learn to do what you want to do without having to use them.

Aren't you in the military? The UCMJ considers steroids a drug. I would suggest stopping ASAP.

[Sparkle]

Aren't you in the military? The UCMJ considers steroids a drug. I would suggest stopping ASAP.

I never started and don't intend to. Walked up to the waters edge but I didn't hop in. I would never post something like that if I was in the process of doing it anyway : P. Getting in trouble was another reason why I didn't do it, but honestly it wasn't one of the major ones.

[Kuma]

One of the biggest nays for steroids for martial artists IMO is due to the fact that it can affect your tendons and make them more susceptible to tearing. This is why you'll see many elite lifters who are at that level where chemical enhancement becomes necessary to compete well often get injuries like that. In the martial arts, we're not only putting a lot of stress on our tendons due to strikes and kicks but also with joint locks and other grappling so it's going to make them even more susceptible to damage.

More risk than gain for martial artists IMO.

[Sparkle]

One of the biggest nays for steroids for martial artists IMO is due to the fact that it can affect your tendons and make them more susceptible to tearing. This is why you'll see many elite lifters who are at that level where chemical enhancement becomes necessary to compete well often get injuries like that. In the martial arts, we're not only putting a lot of stress on our tendons due to strikes and kicks but also with joint locks and other grappling so it's going to make them even more susceptible to damage.

More risk than gain for martial artists IMO.

True, but sometimes it's good to take say . . . . . a couple months off training how to fight and just work on physical fitness. Getting bigger, faster, and stronger in that time with the aid of steroids (assuming you do it the right way, at the right time in your life for decent reasons) and then taking some time for your body to adjust to what you get would just make you all the better would it not?

In my opinion, which I still feel is in great lack of knowledge, that in order to get the benefits with using something this complicated is simply to be knowledgeable in the subject and know what to do, to be educated. I do believe there are great benefits to a person doing this, but it has to be the right time, and the individual just has to know what they are doing to and with themselves.

[Kuma]

In my opinion, which I still feel is in great lack of knowledge, that in order to get the benefits with using something this complicated is simply to be knowledgeable in the subject and know what to do, to be educated. I do believe there are great benefits to a person doing this, but it has to be the right time, and the individual just has to know what they are doing to and with themselves.

Actually, most of the guys who do use know the risks and accept them as part of the deal. I've been involved in strength sports for a few years now and I see a lot of it. Yes, you can juice intelligently but it still doesn't mean it's not without risk.

If you're at the point where you're deadlifting 800 pounds and need a bit more to set a new record, then maybe. If you're Joe Schmo then no, you don't. You can go a long ways without. When I powerlifted I was pulling over 550 pounds in the under-181 class raw and I didn't take any supps whatsoever. Smart, hard training is what works.

[Rhizome]

i dont know much about steroids nor am looking to take them, but was wondering about pro-hormones that i hear about often. I take it they come with similar side effects.

there seems to be loads of legal pro-hormones.

[Taiji_Lou]

It's a bird. It's a plane!

Naw dude. It's roid rage.

[El Medico]

........ Smart, hard training is what works.

If you continue to reveal these ancient secrets we shall have no recourse but to hire a Dim Mak expert to silence you.

let me rephrase that-

If you continue to reveal these ancient secrets without charging outlandish sums we shall have no recourse but to hire a Dim Mak expert to silence you.

Consider this your only warning.

[iammartialarts]

ONLY PUSSIES TAKE STEROIDS.... NUFF SAID!!!!