Hapkido's indentity

[powerhouse]

I am running out of time and I really need to finish my project. So, please reply.

I am not an expert in Hapkido. I am a mire admire.
I am researching the history of Hapkido, Its origins and how it came to America.
I have got most of the facts and the internet have provided me with a great deal of information, however, there is something that is unclear to me and so, here I am asking the authorities in this phenomenal art.
I understand that Hapkido suffered influences from the Japanese dominance in Korea and has its similarities with jujitsu and judo, however it is a unique art.
My question to you is:
In a few sentences, how would you define the differences between Hapkido and Jujitsu/Judo?

My aim is to establish a distinguish identity to Hapkido where someone who ignores the facts will not confuse one art with another.

Your prompt response will be appreciated since it is time sensitive.

I thank you for your precious information.

J. Sutton

[Spinmaster]

Why do you say "Hapkido suffered Japanese influences"? My understanding was that Hapkido was derived from Daito-ryu Aiki-jujitsu, which is a Japanese art.

[powerhouse]

I extracted this text from the world Hapkido's association. My understanding is that Hapkido existed prior to the Japanese invasion.
I apologize for my ignorance. I may not be interpreting it right.


The History of Hapkido


"It should be first understood that a Martial Art is not invented or created by any one person. Techniques are developed by many over a great number of years. Just as wrestling, boxing, and fencing are unique to the western world, Martial Arts have been developed through a long history of Asian countries".

"During the Three Kingdom Era (SAM-KUK-SHI-DAE) (from 57 B.C. to 688 A.D) Three Kingdoms competed on the Korean peninsula: KO-GU-RYO (37 B.C.) in the north, PAEK-JAB (18 B.C.) in the southwest, and SHILLA (57 B.C.) in the southeast. Martial Arts techniques much like those of modern day Hapkido were introduced to ancient Korea with the introduction of Buddhism in KO-GU-RYO approximately 372 AD. Evidence can be found in many of the ancient wall and cave paintings and sculptures from that period of time.

During the SHILLA (57 B.C. to 660 AD) and the United SHILLA Kingdom (676 AD to 935 AD) each kingdom gathered about them an elite group of young knights, the HWA-RANG (Flowering Youth) Warriors, who were highly disciplined, adhered to a strict code of ethics and were extremely proficient in the martial arts. These warriors, who were to train the future national leaders, were taught Hapkido techniques for their physical fitness, mental discipline and self-defense.

The SHILLA kingdom was overturned in 935 AD by the Dynasty of KO-RYO, from which then name "Korea" was derived. During the KO-RYO Dynasty (918 AD -1392 AD) Buddhism was the state religion and greatly influenced politics and administrations as well as martial arts. Many kings including king EYI-JONG, and king CHOONG-HEI, brought Hapkido experts into the palace to perform demonstrations of the martial arts. This is the beginning of Hapkido as a royal martial art.

In the history of Hapkido, a monk Grandmaster SU-SAN taught Hapkido to the monks who were successful in repelling the Japanese invaders during the IN-JIN-WAE-RAN invasion. This was a prime example of Hapkido applied on a grand scale.

In the new CHO-SON dynasty (1392-1910) or YI dynasty as it is often called, the collapse of Buddhism came about and its subsequent replacement by Confucianism... which respects scholarly disciplines and looks down upon physical force or martial arts, brought about the down fall of martial arts. Painting, sculpting, and writing replaced the art of fighting. The country progressively took on an anti-militaristic temperament. By the end of the nineteenth century, martial arts had come to be looked down upon by the Korean citizen, if not completely banned in many regions.

Hapkido barely maintained its continuation through individual masters, Buddhist monks and royal families practicing the arts in seclusion. In an attempt to prevent the complete loss of the fighting arts, king JUNG-JO ordered his general LEE-DUK-MOO to compile a book of all the known martial techniques. The book known as MOO-YAE-DO-BO-TONG-JI has many detailed examples of Hapkido techniques recorded within its pages.

The CHO-SON dynasty was brought down by the Japanese in 1910. From 1910 to 1945 the Japanese ruled Korea. Under Japanese rule, all civil liberties were revoked. The Japanese closed many private schools and established their own public schools designed to assimilate Korean youth into the Japanese culture, omitting Korean language and history and stressing Japan's instead. The martial arts again suffered since the occupying Japanese would not even allow Korean sports, let alone Korean martial arts to be practiced. But as before those dedicated few continued to practice, quietly defying their invading rulers.

In 1945 after Korea regained control of their country, the martial arts once again gained popularity in this defense hungry nation. Hapkido was re-introduced by the man given the title of founder or father of modern day Hapkido, CHOI, YONG-SOOL. Before his death in 1987 Supreme Grandmaster CHOI taught all the Hapkido techniques to a few outstanding students, who in turn took on the task of popularizing Hapkido in modern Korea. Today, one cannot find a single city in Korea without Hapkido schools. All the government organizations, all the military academies and special military units have Hapkido instructors and practitioners totaling over one million already.

Among foreign countries such as USA, Germany, Canada, Spain, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, China, and France, there is a solid foundation of Hapkido schools that is continuing through the unending dedication of the Hapkido Masters throughout the world".

[Kraen]

I'd hate to break it to you, but Choi spent the earlier years of his life in Japan. Learning DRAJJ. And maintained that he was faithful in teaching what he learned in Japan.

-Kraen

[koyo]

Wrestling boxing and fencing are unique to the western world?????

I think NOT.

[Fish Of Doom]

fact: KMA governing bodies have a tendency to make up false histories to downplay or censor the fact that some of them descend directly from japanese martial arts.

[Coges]

I am by no means an expert either but that history has some serious holes in it. Hapkido as a martial art is relatively young. Sure there were Korean fighting arts that pre-date Hapkido but they were not known as Hapkido.

Also as Koro has also stated, how is wrestling unique to the Western world?

The main problem with this information is that there is no definitive answer and it as been and most likely will be argued till the cows come home.

[powerhouse]

Would be so kind in reveal your source of information?
Thank you.

[Coges]

Mate, google's a wonderful thing. I advise you to use it.

http://modernhapkido.org/history.htm

http://csusap.csu.edu.au/~sduc01/history.html

http://martialarts.about.com/od/styles/p/hapkido.htm

http://www.iowahapkido.org/history/history.htm

http://www.dojang.com.au/hapkido/hapkido-history

http://www.ultimatefightingarts.com/hapkido-history.html

I'm certainly not saying what you posted is wrong. How am I to know. All I can say is that there is a heap of information out there and a lot of common ground. Take from it what you will.

Also, in regards to wrestling. Shuai Jiao is said to have originated in China over 4000 years ago. Doesn't sound too unique to the western world to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrestling

[Griffin]

Observing TaeKyun, i think thats what its called lol theres gracefull yet extreme kicks and throws...

Common story is a Korean gent observed Aikijujitsu during occupation, and combined moves with what may be traditionaly Korean "TaeKyun". However after observing TaeKyon maybe it didnt need much altering..

I should add that i dont know as much as you guys lol,and i dont know the history of TaeKyun either!.
Perhaps its not relevant, in either case good luck with your project.
:)

[powerhouse]

"Mate, google's a wonderful thing. I advise you to use it."

Yes, in deed my friend. I was hoping to be referred to one reliable source.
I thought the world Hapkido's association was a realiable source but my understanding is that it may not be.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read and to provide some links.
I ran out of time, but I guess I collected enough information for my project. I just hope it is accurate enough.

[Giovanni]

i know it might de rigeur in this day and age to go to the internet for all information, but i think it's appropriate to ask...did you ever try the public library? or a university library? or the library of congress? maybe a book that someone researched? instead of the ramblings of some guy who started some federation. what if i started my own federation and put a history of hapkido on it? would you believe it? what if i had a korean sounding name, not john smith. just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's true. typically, books have better research, and at least a bibliography. i didn't see any bibliography in the world hapkido federations "history of hapkido"--i added quotes because in my mind, if you don't have a bibliography, you're just making it up. call me a stickler, but as an english student and essayist, text without a bibliography is pure conjecture.

[Bruce W Sims]

Unfortunately, John, the INTERNET and WIKIPEDIA have taken over much of the research camp. Start advising a person to dig through bib-s or seek out identified authorities and I can pretty well guarantee the conversation will dry-up in a hurry. In my own research I was amazed at how quickly I learned how commonly held beliefs simply did not jive with documented history. Likewise I was stunned to find-out how little documented history was acknowledged in deference to what people wanted to believe. In response I started my Timeline project over on my website in an effort to give historical perspective to a lot of the "oral traditions" that pass for "history" in the KMA. Its still a work in progress, but at least there is an easily scanned resource to provide an alternative.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Coges]

i know it might de rigeur in this day and age to go to the internet for all information, but i think it's appropriate to ask...did you ever try the public library? or a university library? or the library of congress? maybe a book that someone researched? instead of the ramblings of some guy who started some federation. what if i started my own federation and put a history of hapkido on it? would you believe it? what if i had a korean sounding name, not john smith. just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's true. typically, books have better research, and at least a bibliography. i didn't see any bibliography in the world hapkido federations "history of hapkido"--i added quotes because in my mind, if you don't have a bibliography, you're just making it up. call me a stickler, but as an english student and essayist, text without a bibliography is pure conjecture.

I'm not sure what libraries you have but the closest thing to the history of Hapkido in any library in Melbourne (probably even in Australia) would be the first few pages in any Hapkido techniques book, if you can find one. This too is most likely sans bibliography. If you're aware of any actual written text that contains a referenced history of hapkido then maybe that's where we should be sending powerhouse.

Alternatively, Scott Shaw's website (scottshaw.com) has a very detailed hisoty of KMA and also of DRAJJ as well. Probably the most in depth of any I've seen. Again, I do not know how accurate it is, but then I probably don't know enough to tell.

[Giovanni]

quick search at the u.s.a.'s library of congress online catalog reveals 10 hapkido titles, including shaw's book. i also know of kimm's books on the history of hapkido, which ostensibly, should have a bibliographies.

good tip from someone that's done lots of research, bibliographies are great to help find more titles to research.

interesting thing about the wikipedia entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapkido, it's sourced.

i hear what you're saying bruce, especially when there's some type of time limit as the OP mentioned. it's easy to just "google" and get lots of hits, while doing relatively little work. the problem is what you get is probably junk--better term, conjecture. we have a saying in the computer programming world...garbage in, garbage out. just look at the wrestling and fencing line. seriously, martial arts are unique to asia, while fencing and boxing is unique to western nations? that's a real head scratcher for anyone that knows even a bit of history of ancient greece or ancient china. and there are so many cases of the same thing on the "internets", but because they're on some federation's "history of hapkido", suddenly the unsuspecting think it's a valuable source for information.

i admire what you're trying to do bruce, very much so actually because you're taking time to codify and centralize information. you already have parts of the timeline sourced, which again, is very very admirable, much better than 99.99% of what's on the internet. even if it's "this guy said that in an interview", it's something other than pure conjecture and lends validity to the text you're putting out there.

of course, that takes much work and with a career, family, etc., very difficult.

[powerhouse]

Giovanni, thank you for so eloquently put it. In short, my intent was to filter some information in this forum due to my limited time to research. I realize my mistake.
I would like to thank everyone who took the time to respond and to re direct me to research some links.
Also, pardon my English since it is not my first language. I may not have articulate my intent and my reasons well enough.

[Theforgotten]

Hi powerhouse. I am no expert on Hapkido either, but I can at least help you out in the department of history. Unfortunately, like everyone has stated, most of what passes for history in the Korean martial arts is complete bunk. Hapkido is derived from Daito-Ryu, and the majority of all modern Korean martial arts come directly from Japanese sources. Hapkido and Aikido use the same exact characters, and Hapkido has been referred to as Aikido's ugly cousin too. There is a tendency to re-write history and try to eliminate the obvious Japanese source of the majority of Korean martial arts due to nationalism and anti-Japanese racism in Korea, so be very careful about believing anything that comes out of Korea when it comes to history. There is a tendency for Korea to take things from other cultures and not cite the original source or give credit where credit is due, which is actually plagarism, cultural plagarism in this case. Take Korean history with a grain of salt, and good luck with your training :cool:.

[Bruce W Sims]

Not to put too fine a point on what Forgotten said....but I would add this.

Korean history has commonly been written by the Korean upper class including, for instance, the Intelligensia, landed aristocracy and corrupt administrations. The "glory" (if you will) of Korean martial traditions has commonly proceeded from the sacrifice and dedication of the Korean commoner who has been long-suffering, dilligent, dedicated and patriotic. For example, the UBIYONG, or "righteous armies" who fought as far back as the Mongol Invasions. Most recently during the Japanese Occupation there were fighting forces that rose from among the people while the Korean government-in-exile ran off to bicker in Shanghai. You would do well to not allow your attention to be drawn to Korean history written only after WW II and the Korean War. Korean martial tradition is documented as far back as the start of the Choson Dynasty (1394-1910). FWIW.

BTW: The idea that Hapkido and Aikido share the same HAN-JA and therefore the same meaning is another bit of pro-Japanese propaganda. Korean readings of Chinese characters sometimes----but not always---coincide with Japanese renderings. Just a thought.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[powerhouse]

You guys are awesome! It explains a lot.
Thank you so much guys!

[Theforgotten]

Not to put too fine a point on what Forgotten said....but I would add this.

Korean history has commonly been written by the Korean upper class including, for instance, the Intelligensia, landed aristocracy and corrupt administrations. The "glory" (if you will) of Korean martial traditions has commonly proceeded from the sacrifice and dedication of the Korean commoner who has been long-suffering, dilligent, dedicated and patriotic. For example, the UBIYONG, or "righteous armies" who fought as far back as the Mongol Invasions. Most recently during the Japanese Occupation there were fighting forces that rose from among the people while the Korean government-in-exile ran off to bicker in Shanghai. You would do well to not allow your attention to be drawn to Korean history written only after WW II and the Korean War. Korean martial tradition is documented as far back as the start of the Choson Dynasty (1394-1910). FWIW.

Ain't that the truth, lol. This type of misinformation takes place in every country, though in Korea, it seems to be far more prevalent. Koreans have been known for their guerrilla warfare in the past, not to mention the warrior monks, and also the navy. Unfortunately, most of the post WWII stuff is straight propaganda, but there are some things that have survived before that time including the Muye Dobo Tongji. Turnbull is a good source, too.

BTW: The idea that Hapkido and Aikido share the same HAN-JA and therefore the same meaning is another bit of pro-Japanese propaganda. Korean readings of Chinese characters sometimes----but not always---coincide with Japanese renderings. Just a thought.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hmmm, I have been told by both native Japanese and native Koreans that "Ai" and "Hap" use the same exact Chinese Character and that the only difference is the pronunctiation according to the language. As a matter of fact, I met Young Sung Lee when I was back east in DC and his system, Hapmudo, the "Hap" character was written using the same character as the "Ai" character in Aikido. He also informed me that they both meant "harmony" or "coordinated" in their respective languages after I brought it up while talking with him.

[Theforgotten]

I have asked a Korean friend of mine in Nam-Gu, Ulsan about the Characters in Aikido and Hapkido and she has returned my email. She stated that they both use the same exact characters and mean the exact same thing, though they are two different styles. I can see that - Ai/Hap = Harmony or Coordinated, Ki = spirit/power, and Do = way. Cool beans :cool:.

[Bruce W Sims]

Let me see if I can provide a bit of historical context that might help things out here a bit.

A couple of years back a posting on DOCHANG DIGEST cited an article or book that revealed an interesting effort made after WW II. Apparently, in an effort to re-establish the integrity of the Korean language following the Occupation, various dictionary and lexicon sources simply took Japanese items and transcribed them into Korean. As a result, many HAN JA (Jap. KAN JI) were taken to mean the same thing in both languages. For this reason, pre-Occupation dictionaries in the original Korean language are literally worth their weight in gold. The example of the term "Hap" in Korean is a good example of the situation.

Using the Japanese rendering of the the HAN JA, the term "HAPKIDO" would loosely translate as "the way of coordinated energy". This is pretty much the common interpretation taken by most Post WW II sources. However, the HAN JA for Hap in the pre-Occupation Korean also bears the meaning of "Universal" or "Catholic". This would leave us with a slightly but meaningfully different interpretation of "way of universal energy".
There is also an alternate reading for "Ki" meaning "technique", and though the HAN JA is written differently, confusion regarding homonyms between Japan and Korea is frequent.

Given this, one could actually read Hapkido as the "way of universal techniques". To take matters further, there are six dialects in Korea which provide for quite a bit of variance as one moves farther away from the national capital in Seoul. Can you get a sense for the point I am making? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[MadMonk108]

As a result, many HAN JA (Jap. KAN JI) were taken to mean the same thing in both languages. For this reason, pre-Occupation dictionaries in the original Korean language are literally worth their weight in gold. The example of the term "Hap" in Korean is a good example of the situation.

This is true of some hanja, but not of 合/합/Hab. While it has several shades of meaning, there is no difference between Japanese and pre-Occupation Korea, or Chinese.

One character it is true of would be 家/가/Ga. In Chinese dialects and Korean, this character means family. It is a part of the SinoKorean work 가족/Gajok, meaning family. In Japanese, it is used as a suffix for practitioner, for example, 唐手家 will be read as Karateka in Japanese, but a Korean will be more likely to use 唐手人, Dangsuin, as a term for someone who practices this art.

Using the Japanese rendering of the the HAN JA, the term "HAPKIDO" would loosely translate as "the way of coordinated energy". This is pretty much the common interpretation taken by most Post WW II sources. However, the HAN JA for Hap in the pre-Occupation Korean also bears the meaning of "Universal" or "Catholic".

The modern Japanese character 合 also carries the same possible interpretation, so the difference between the two interpretations is false. Remember, the precise definition of hanja/kanji often depend on the context of the term being used, and will carry certain nuances depending on this.

There is also an alternate reading for "Ki" meaning "technique", and though the HAN JA is written differently, confusion regarding homonyms between Japan and Korea is frequent.

Given this, one could actually read Hapkido as the "way of universal techniques".

This is a bit of a reach.

There is no "alternate reading" for "Ki".

Remember, Hanja are not phonetic.

When dealing with SinoKorean terms, 기/Gi is phonetic. It is a sound. It does not have meaning on it's own. It's a syllabic cluster made up of a consonant and a vowel.

The terms 合氣道 and 合技道 are completely different, despite "sounding" the same.

합기도 cannot be read as "Way of Universal Techniques" because it lacks that context without associated Hanja.

For those three phonetic syllables, I can think of 7 different Hanja for 합, about 20 for 기, and about 34 for do 도. This does not mean that 합기도 can mean all of those possible combinations.

[Theforgotten]

Let me see if I can provide a bit of historical context that might help things out here a bit.

A couple of years back a posting on DOCHANG DIGEST cited an article or book that revealed an interesting effort made after WW II. Apparently, in an effort to re-establish the integrity of the Korean language following the Occupation, various dictionary and lexicon sources simply took Japanese items and transcribed them into Korean. As a result, many HAN JA (Jap. KAN JI) were taken to mean the same thing in both languages. For this reason, pre-Occupation dictionaries in the original Korean language are literally worth their weight in gold. The example of the term "Hap" in Korean is a good example of the situation.

Using the Japanese rendering of the the HAN JA, the term "HAPKIDO" would loosely translate as "the way of coordinated energy". This is pretty much the common interpretation taken by most Post WW II sources. However, the HAN JA for Hap in the pre-Occupation Korean also bears the meaning of "Universal" or "Catholic". This would leave us with a slightly but meaningfully different interpretation of "way of universal energy".
There is also an alternate reading for "Ki" meaning "technique", and though the HAN JA is written differently, confusion regarding homonyms between Japan and Korea is frequent.

Given this, one could actually read Hapkido as the "way of universal techniques". To take matters further, there are six dialects in Korea which provide for quite a bit of variance as one moves farther away from the national capital in Seoul. Can you get a sense for the point I am making? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Really? This is new to me. Every Korean that I have met and discussed the topic with informed me that Hapkido is basically the Korean way of saying Aikido and that the two terms mean the same thing. My friend in Nam-Gu told me the same thing, and Young Sung Lee also informed me that "Hap" and "Ai" are the same word, just different languages. This is the first time that I have heard of this conspiracy, and I have never heard it from any of my Korean colleagues whether inside or outside of Korea. Every Hapkidoin that I have met has told me that the name of their style means "the way of coordinated power" and that the characters are the same as the ones used in Aikido, Just different pronunctiation of the characters due to different languages being used. I certainly was not aware of a supposed Japanese conspiracy, and some the most nationalist Korean martial artists that I have met have never bought it up or even claimed that it existed. Both styles use the same characters in the same context and have the same roots stemming from DRAJJ, so I don't see the meanings as inherently being different or even intentionally being different, but quite the opposite. I also think that it is a reach to say that they have two different meanings when they use the same exact characters in the same exact context, if they truly meant for it to have a different meaning, then they would've made sure that the different meaning was communicated and understood across the board.

[Giovanni]

i think it's pretty interesting that bruce actually tried to cite articles (which cited other articles) and while parts of the preceding posts do agree with bruce, where the posts differ, only anectodal evidence is given.

"some korean people told me this", so that must make it true or "i alone say that there is no alternate reading of ki", which also makes my interpretation true.

this is exactly the point i was making earlier. i'm not trying to be a downer or to get on peoples' cases, just trying to point out the huge discrepancy between anecdotal and factual evidence. let's try to get to a place where we are all talking the same language, one of factual evidence.

bruce, can you provide a link or more information on the dojang digest article you mention?

others, can you cite articles or documentation backing up your claims?

[MadMonk108]

The difference between Aikido and Hapkido is in the characters, but it's not what Bruce is refering to. The Japanese simplified the strokes used in the character for Ki, while the Koreans use the older Chinese set.

氣 is the traditional set of strokes. 気 is the modern Kanji set of strokes.

[MadMonk108]

others, can you cite articles or documentation backing up your claims?

I've supplied you with actual characters. I speak, read, and write Korean, both Hanja & Hangul. If you need me to supply credentials, I will.

[Giovanni]

lol, i believe you madmonk108, no credentials necessary!

sorry, i was not trying to denigrate your language skills.

[MadMonk108]

Don't worry, it wasn't taken as denigration.

[Bruce W Sims]

Really? This is new to me. Every Korean that I have met and discussed the topic with informed me that Hapkido is basically the Korean way of saying Aikido and that the two terms mean the same thing. My friend in Nam-Gu told me the same thing, and Young Sung Lee also informed me that "Hap" and "Ai" are the same word, just different languages. This is the first time that I have heard of this conspiracy, and I have never heard it from any of my Korean colleagues whether inside or outside of Korea. Every Hapkidoin that I have met has told me that the name of their style means "the way of coordinated power" and that the characters are the same as the ones used in Aikido, Just different pronunctiation of the characters due to different languages being used. I certainly was not aware of a supposed Japanese conspiracy, and some the most nationalist Korean martial artists that I have met have never bought it up or even claimed that it existed. Both styles use the same characters in the same context and have the same roots stemming from DRAJJ, so I don't see the meanings as inherently being different or even intentionally being different, but quite the opposite. I also think that it is a reach to say that they have two different meanings when they use the same exact characters in the same exact context, if they truly meant for it to have a different meaning, then they would've made sure that the different meaning was communicated and understood across the board.

Simply because a number of people concur with your view does not automatically make it the correct one. Lets review this a step at a time, shall we?

1.) I don't know much about a dictionary "conspiracy". What I can tell you is that the Japanese invested a lot of time, energy and resources working to erase the differences between Korean and Japanese culture so as to leave the Japanese culture dominant. Japanese apologists from WW II and moving forward would have the world believe that they succeeded.
They did not.
The Koreans have their own take on things, their own martial traditions, language, view of Buddhism and Confucian-driven ethos.

2.) I have no doubt that the people you are citing are agreeing with you. How many have actually dug into the older Korean language of "native terms" and the HAN JA of the Choson Dynasty? I have no doubt that if a person were to open a modern Korean dictionary and identify a Chinese character, the meaning would reflect a parallel with the Japanese rendering. Thats the whole point of my post, wasn't it? What I posit is that prior to the militant arrogance of the Japanese government, the Koreans had their own way of rendering Chinese characters---heavily flavored by their relationship with Ming China.

#.) I will locate that citation from Ray Terry's DOJANG DIGEST and then you can make up your own mind. Until then it may be worthwhile to consider that not all of what is written in modern books is Holy Writ.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[MadMonk108]

The Koreans have their own take on things, their own martial traditions, language, view of Buddhism and Confucian-driven ethos.

They still do, linguistically, there's actually little that changed. Because of the interplay between spoken Korean and SinoKorean terminology, a great deal remains different, and the things that are the same are usually the same across the borders, from China, to Korea, to Japan.

I could name several terms that retain different meanings or nuances, such as "yaksok", which while in both cultures can mean appointment, but will more likely mean "promise" to a Japanese girl, but a Korean girl will think you mean "date".

Trust me, learning that lesson the hard way was interesting.

I have no doubt that the people you are citing are agreeing with you. How many have actually dug into the older Korean language of "native terms" and the HAN JA of the Choson Dynasty?

Me:cool:

Part of the required education here at the temple.

the Koreans had their own way of rendering Chinese characters---heavily flavored by their relationship with Ming China.

And they still do.

#.) I will locate that citation from Ray Terry's DOJANG DIGEST and then you can make up your own mind.

Hey...you spelled 場 with a "j" there! Finally using Seoul Standard instead of McCune-Reischaur?

Best Wishes,

Bruce[/QUOTE]

[Bruce W Sims]

Had to, Monk....M-R is rapidly fading into the setting sun as the World embraces the "Information Super Highway". Nobody has time for all those diacritical marks over da vowels.

As far as my citation goes I have some good news and some bad news.

The good news is that I found the citation in DD and it focused on "Ten Fold Dictionary" (K. SHIPBAI SAJUN). (see: LEE Joo Bai; 2004). The bad news is that the efforts made by linguists to short-cut Korean language reconstruction by way of using Japanese lexicons was posted to the "KOREANYES.COM" website which now seems to have expired.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Theforgotten]

"some korean people told me this", so that must make it true or "i alone say that there is no alternate reading of ki", which also makes my interpretation true.

No, you misread me. I asked people who were born and raised in Korea becuase they would know their own langauge better than outsiders would. Definitely not trying to say that it is true just because some Korean people told me this, just trying to point out that people who speak the language and are native to the country have informed me of how something works in their native tongue. The part on ki completely misses the boat and I don't know where you got that line of thinking from, but it is certainly not mine.

[Theforgotten]

Simply because a number of people concur with your view does not automatically make it the correct one.

I agree, I'm just trying to tell you where I am coming from and why I used the explanations that I did.


1.) I don't know much about a dictionary "conspiracy". What I can tell you is that the Japanese invested a lot of time, energy and resources working to erase the differences between Korean and Japanese culture so as to leave the Japanese culture dominant. Japanese apologists from WW II and moving forward would have the world believe that they succeeded.
They did not.
The Koreans have their own take on things, their own martial traditions, language, view of Buddhism and Confucian-driven ethos.

Sorry, conspiracy was a strong word to use. Yes, the Japanese have engaged in behaviors that were downright racist in an effort to make the Koreans seem racially inferior and to undermine Korean national identity, we are in agreement here.

2.) I have no doubt that the people you are citing are agreeing with you. How many have actually dug into the older Korean language of "native terms" and the HAN JA of the Choson Dynasty? I have no doubt that if a person were to open a modern Korean dictionary and identify a Chinese character, the meaning would reflect a parallel with the Japanese rendering. Thats the whole point of my post, wasn't it? What I posit is that prior to the militant arrogance of the Japanese government, the Koreans had their own way of rendering Chinese characters---heavily flavored by their relationship with Ming China.

Not quite, the people that I am citing don't really have a horse in the race concerning this issue (well, except for the ultra-nationalist ones, they view Korea as the source of all things, even god, lol). I have asked many Koreans, from pro-Japanese to moderate to ultra nationalist and they have all stated the very meaning that I have put out there, and yes, they were aware of their own language and how it changed over time. They are the ones who told me that words such as "DO" are not really Korean, but are Japanese and imported to Korea.

#.) I will locate that citation from Ray Terry's DOJANG DIGEST and then you can make up your own mind. Until then it may be worthwhile to consider that not all of what is written in modern books is Holy Writ.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Thanks, I really appreciate it. I am not trying to say that I am right or you are wrong, I am merely trying to state my position and explain it as best I can. I definitely understand your point about what is written in modern books, and I myself have applied that very logic to debunk a lot of what passes for "fact" in Japan, Korea and many other countries. As for Aikido/Hapkido, I have been told the same thing by every Korean I have talked to about it - including those who are violently anti-Japanese and want nothing to do with them or their culture. I am not saying that it is true just because they told me, but I would like to think that they know their own language, and the fact that this is more of a linguistical issue doesn't hurt either. I think that, given the nationalism in Korea, if the real meaning was different from the run-of-the-mill meaning, then there would be a major effort to recognize this different meaning across the board, if only to further distance it from the hated Japanese and their Aikido. Just a thought. I also know that, from reading a lot of your posts, you know your stuff and that you are well-versed in Korean culture yourself. At the very least, thanks for teaching me something new and broadening more horizons that much more :cool:.