Can you spot the fake koryu?

[iB1337]

Can you spot the fake koryu?

YouTube - Tenshinsho Jigenryu students at Kameido shrine 2005

YouTube - Battojutsu highlights

YouTube - Ogawa Ryu Kenjutsu Toritake Gohon Me Seiteigata

YouTube - IAIDO TAMIYA RYU

[koyo]

OK I will bite.

First one I liked although I imagine they are students not masters.

Forth one I liked.

Second and third...nonsense.

[embra]

Bite 2 - which is a lot easier given koyo's input.

I have very little exposure to koryo arts (which I look on with a lot of interest and respect) - but I will give it a pop.

As koyo pointed out vids 1 + 4 look entirely credible. In vid 1, the partiicpants look youthfull, which may explain koyo's interpretation of students, not masters; and in 4 the principle participant is clearly of some seniority.

As for vids 2+ 3, there does seem to be a lack of fluency of execution in the handling of the katana/boken cuts, and there is also something slightly odd/non-convincing about the participants' body language. However, in both cases, the participants could be relatively junior in their experience, and the style/rhyu entirely valid.

Im going to stick my neck out by guessing somewhat and say that the fake one is 2. I have seen it before, and something lingers in my mind about it.

Everything I have written here could be complete bosh.

IB1337, at some time you are going to tell us the answer?

On a secondary point here, is there someone here I can PM some questions to reg. AikiJitsu in the UK?

[drosera99]

Ogawa-ryu has been discussed on various forums at length. I see no reason to beat that dead horse here.

There is nothing I could find on or about the second video implying that their art is koryu. I don't see how it qualifies as a "fake koryu" if no one ever represented it as such. It obviously isn't koryu. It seems to be one of many modern batto styles probably created in the west. You and I may think it is silly but I see no evidence suggesting that it is dishonestly representing itself.

So, what is the purpose of this thread?

Edit: Also, Tamiya-ryu awards dan ranks. Just fyi. :)

[Fusen]

Is the second video from the Seibukan, Their not koryu, and they never said they were koryu, theres a good introduction to their art here:

http://www.roydeanacademy.com/articles/an_uchideshi_experience_chapter_four

''Seibukan Jujutsu was designed by Sensei Julio Toribio to be the art that he would have liked to have studied as a young practitioner. Consequently, it’s a welcome addition to the world martial arts, with a unique structure that can produce enormous growth in a comparatively short period of time. Everything he believes a quality martial artist should know is included in the system, gathered from his experience as a 7th degree black belt in Hakko-Ryu Jujutsu (Sandaikichu), a 5th degree black belt in Aikikai Aikido, a 2nd degree black belt in Okinawan Kempo Karate, a 6th degree black belt in Enshin Itto Ryu Batto Jutsu (iaido), and a 10th degree black belt in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (ninjutsu).

Seibukan Jujutsu was partially formed as a reaction to Hakko-Ryu Jujutsu and aikido, both being direct descendants of Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu. He had completed all the technical requirements in both systems, and thought it necessary to utilize a tight structure in his new art, in order to deliver to students the techniques he had mastered in the most efficient way possible.

When Seibukan was created, it sought to go beyond the rigid all-kata structure of Hakko-Ryu, while still avoiding what Sensei saw as a pitfall of modern aikido training. He felt aikido classes were a bit too nebulous and the structure provided for students wasn’t clear enough in guiding them to their next level. ''


and a background for the Batto:

http://www.seibukanjujutsu.com/founder.html


''During Toribio Sensei's travels to Japan, he met Kenshinsai Machida Sensei, the Nidai Soke of Enshin Itto lyyu Batto Jutsu system and was accepted as his direct student (jikideshi). In November 1993 he was promoted to Shodan and promoted to Nidan in May 1995. In April 1996 he was tested and promoted to Shoden in Nen Ryu Batto Jutsu by Machida Sensei. Later that year he was again tested and subsequently promoted to Yondan in Enshin Itto Ryu Batto Jutsu. In Nov 97, Toribio Sensei was promoted to Godan (5th Dan) and in 1998, to Rokudan (6th Dan).''

[iB1337]

1-3 are not koryu.

[iB1337]

Also Mr. Machida doesn't have any authority to teach anything but his karate.

[Fusen]

Also Mr. Machida doesn't have any authority to teach anything but his karate.

Ahh, that makes sense, Id heard there were 'issues' with the style, there is a few dojo in the USA that seem to be connected to it.

I take it this Mr Machida, is nothing to do with the World famous karateka Ryoto Machida?

[Mitlov]

Ahh, that makes sense, Id heard there were 'issues' with the style, there is a few dojo in the USA that seem to be connected to it.

I take it this Mr Machida, is nothing to do with the World famous karateka Ryoto Machida?

Lyoto Machida is the son of Yoshizo Machida, who moved to Brazil from Japan in or around 1968. I've never heard either Yoshizo or Lyoto mention a relative named Kenshinsai who still lives in Japan and does Koryo arts. Could be a cousin of Yoshizo or something, though. I don't know how common the name "Machida" is.

[Decision Tree]

Seems a bit of a stretch.

[Fusen]

Its unlikely, It wasnt a direct question, more of drawing a parallel between the two, badly worded and all.

[Dave Humm]

2nd clip... all I will say is there's a serious injury waiting to happen and I genuinely hope it doesn't result in a death.

[Dave Humm]

Is the second video from the Seibukan, Their not koryu, and they never said they were koryu, theres a good introduction to their art here:

http://www.roydeanacademy.com/articles/an_uchideshi_experience_chapter_four

'http://www.roydeanacademy.com/video/shihonage

I don’t know how many dan grade stripes this guy has on his belt but, if this is typical of the quality being taught, I'd be walking out the door.

There are so many fundamental aspects missing from the technique it defies space here to describe them. - Kihon is entirely missing.

[Ferran]

Dave,

he seems to be using American kenpo uniformity: black gi plus wide red stripe for 5th dan. I've seen worse, but it kinda gives you a glimpse of the mindset, does it not?

Keep well.

[Fusen]

I cant view the video, but if its of Roy Dean, then he's a black belt in BJJ, and the red stripe is a norm for that.

AFAIK its only BJJ that he teaches, even though he is a legitamate dan grade under the Aikikai.

[iB1337]

Oh, the purpose of the thread was to see if people can notice koryu from non- koryu at a glance.

[Dave Humm]

... and isn't that what we've been discussing ?

You can't post clips, in this instance, asking if people can "spot" a genuine koryu against one which isn't, and not expect people, especially those involved in legitimate old-school to refrain from expressing an opinion.

[iB1337]

... and isn't that what we've been discussing ?

You can't post clips, in this instance, asking if people can "spot" a genuine koryu against one which isn't, and not expect people, especially those involved in legitimate old-school to refrain from expressing an opinion.

I was answering a question from someone about the purpose of my post.

I'm not sure what you are going on about exactly, but yeah that's the point to hear opinions from people that do and don't. Kind of the purpose of a forum in general now isn't it?

[drosera99]

Oh, the purpose of the thread was to see if people can notice koryu from non- koryu at a glance.

Okay. My first question would be why? Do you care if people can recognize koryu? Does it matter? If so why?

Secondly, the title of this thread does not ask if people can recognize koryu. It asks if people can recognize fake koryu. This seems to imply that you are accusing the groups there that aren't koryu of misrepresenting themselves.

I can't find anything on the batto style that indicates that it has ever represented itself as koryu. As for the Tenshinsho Jigen-ryu, the people who know know it's gendai! I don't know much at all about Tenshinsho Jigen-ryu, but it is my understanding that it is a gendai kenjutsu system based on the Jigen-ryu. I don't know these people and I do not know if they have ever misrepresented their art or what kind of reputation they have in Japan. I have never seen anything that has implied that Tenshinsho Jigen-ryu is anything other than what it is. If you have, could you kindly direct us there? While I'm sure it was not your intent, labeling these groups as "fake koryu" seems very disrespectful to people who have, to my knowledge, never claimed to be doing koryu at all.

[iB1337]

Okay. My first question would be why? Do you care if people can recognize koryu? Does it matter? If so why?

No real reason, not particularly, nope not really and see the before mentioned answers.


Secondly, the title of this thread does not ask if people can recognize koryu. It asks if people can recognize fake koryu. This seems to imply that you are accusing the groups there that aren't koryu of misrepresenting themselves.

Not really, I didn't imply anything of the sort. I used video to see if people would see the differences, between koryu and non-koryu perhaps fake was a little misleading.


I can't find anything on the batto style that indicates that it has ever represented itself as koryu. As for the Tenshinsho Jigen-ryu, the people who know know it's gendai! I don't know much at all about Tenshinsho Jigen-ryu, but it is my understanding that it is a gendai kenjutsu system based on the Jigen-ryu. I don't know these people and I do not know if they have ever misrepresented their art or what kind of reputation they have in Japan. I have never seen anything that has implied that Tenshinsho Jigen-ryu is anything other than what it is. If you have, could you kindly direct us there? While I'm sure it was not your intent, labeling these groups as "fake koryu" seems very disrespectful to people who have, to my knowledge, never claimed to be doing koryu at all.

Tenshinsho Jigen ryu does claim it is a koryu and not gendai. It has been proven that their version of jigen ryu could not possibly exist. There lineage a complete fiction as well as other things. It is fake.

http://www.jigenryu.jp/

There is an English section if you can't read Japanese.

The others Ogawa ryu has also claimed to be koryu, as well as the Embukan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enbukan

[The Unholy]

Oh, the purpose of the thread was to see if people can notice koryu from non- koryu at a glance.

But lets put things into perspective. Meik Skoss for years let the representative of Kazearashi ryu demonstrate with his dojo for the first of the year demonstration that he hosted. It later turned out that not only was Kazearashi ryu NOT a koryu, but a school created outside of Japan with all of the senior students in on the BS.

Not so long ago, Wayne Muromoto commented on the Ogawa ryu and stated that he at first thought all the mistake he saw were due to the fact that they were being done by gaijin and not Japanese. It was not until the dealt with the still rather unknown matter of the tea ceremony that he was able to tell that the Ogawa folks were making things up based on things they could get off of the internet and not personal instruction.

20 years ago it was much easier to spot fakes. Now with so many folks posting things to youtube, it has gotten a lot harder unless you have lived in the country, learned the language and gone to lessons to tell what is real and what is not. So for the average fork to understand is beyond the realms of reason IMO.

[Dave Humm]

Oh god yeah - Kazearashi Ryu.

I know someone near to where I live who studies and teaches this system and although I've spoken to him and he is aware of the controversay about this system he continues with it.

Fair play to him I suppose but, I do roll my eyes when I see material advertising it as a "Samurai Battlefield Art"

[KeitaroSugiyama]

Hello gentlemen:)!

My name is Keitaro Sugiyama. I am a junior instructor of Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu Hyouhou (3rd Dan). I am also the Manager of the public relations division of Sougoubudou Genshinkai, the sole legitimate organization of Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu Hyouhou, Japan.

http://jigenryu.jp/board-members.html

I heard there is an interesting discussion about our style going on here, and yes it is, lol. Especially, I like this one so much!


It has been proven that their version of jigen ryu could not possibly exist. There lineage a complete fiction as well as other things. It is fake.


Wow, that's new to me! How did you find such our tooooooop secret, which even none of us has ever heard of !!!! lol! ;)


There is an English section if you can't read Japanese.

Thanks! Here's the link for the English page;
http://jigenryu.jp/outline.html

And more movies of our style, too! If you like!
http://jigenryu.jp/movies.html


Joking aside, I think this is a very good lesson and opportunity for us how to introduce out style in a proper fashion and internationally. So I welcome any question and try to answer as possible as I can.

Because neither of us is a professional modern budo-ka, lol, who can make money from teaching martial arts and has a plenty of time to sit in front of PC screen, but strive hard for our families, in addition, because of language barrier, too, it will take time to make replys but forgive it, please. ;)

[iB1337]

The entry in the Bugei ryuha daijiten says something else.

[KeitaroSugiyama]

The entry in the Bugei ryuha daijiten says something else.


Yes, it does, Mr.iB1337. What part of which edition are you interested in??

For people who don't know "The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten", it is a very unique and interesting book which gives explanations about enormous numbers of classical martial art styles in Japan. There are first(1969) and second(1978) editions published so far.

http://global-bank.jp/jgslk/Pf494.jpg

[iB1337]

The 1978 edition, only lists 14 generations, yet according to your outline page you have 29 generations.

Also, there has been some sort of change for the kanji, from 天真 to 天眞.

Perhaps, you could explain some of these things?
I'm willing to say that I might have been wrong, actually I hope I am.
I'll take a better look at the book tomorrow,and translate the entry for everyone.

[Kogusoku]

The 1978 edition, only lists 14 generations, yet according to your outline page you have 29 generations.

Also, there has been some sort of change for the kanji, from 天真 to 天眞.

Perhaps, you could explain some of these things?
I'm willing to say that I might have been wrong, actually I hope I am.
I'll take a better look at the book tomorrow,and translate the entry for everyone.

I can't speak for the lineal discrepencies shown between the BRDJ and the webpage.

I can however comment on the kanji usage.

There is no difference between 眞 and 真. The former is an older way of writing "shin/makoto" and the latter is the more common way of writing it. You can find this with the names of certain koryu in books from the Meiji, Taisho & early Showa eras. For example, Tenjin Shinyo-ryu is currently written as 天神真楊流, but in two Meiji-jidai books on the ryu, it is written as 天神眞楊流. Certain densho from the ryu have the older written versions of the name

This occurance can also be found with Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu, where some of the Taisho & Showa jidai books write the name as 天眞正傳香取神道流 (Note, the use of 傳 instead of 伝 - Again, older kanji with the same meaning.) whereas the more modern writing of the ryu is now 天真正伝香取神道流.

It's merely older versions of the kanji used, nothing more.

[iB1337]

I meant the reason they decided to use the older Kanji, it also helps make things look older as well.

[ronbeaubien]

But lets put things into perspective. Meik Skoss for years let the representative of Kazearashi ryu demonstrate with his dojo for the first of the year demonstration that he hosted. It later turned out that not only was Kazearashi ryu NOT a koryu, but a school created outside of Japan with all of the senior students in on the BS.

The demonstrations that you are referring to were hosted by by Bob Wolfe at his Itten Dojo. It was also my understanding that the Kaze Arashi-ryu people were invited by Mr. Wolfe.

http://www.ittendojo.org/articles/news-7.htm

Knowing Meik, I do not believe for a second that at any time Meik was ever confused about the illegitimacy of Kaze Arashi-ryu as you have implied.

Moreover, just because Meik participated in a demonstration where some shady characters have also demonstrated should not be construed to automatically mean that Meik Skoss endorsed the other group as legitimate.

Respectfully,

Ron Beaubien

[The Unholy]

The demonstrations that you are referring to were hosted by by Bob Wolfe at his Itten Dojo. It was also my understanding that the Kaze Arashi-ryu people were invited by Mr. Wolfe.

http://www.ittendojo.org/articles/news-7.htm

Knowing Meik, I do not believe for a second that at any time Meik was ever confused about the illegitimacy of Kaze Arashi-ryu as you have implied.

Moreover, just because Meik participated in a demonstration where some shady characters have also demonstrated should not be construed to automatically mean that Meik Skoss endorsed the other group as legitimate.

Respectfully,

Ron Beaubien

Ah, I see. I thought that because they were associating with the Kaze Arashi ryu and had taken photos of the demonstrations along with other koryu for the web site, that they just did not put in enough time to figure out if it was legit or not.

[KeitaroSugiyama]

Hello thread readers, it's been a nice clear autumn sky in Japan. :)

The 1978 edition, only lists 14 generations, yet according to your outline page you have 29 generations.

Do you mean this lineage chart of page 600 of the 1978 edition?
http://www.jigenryu.jp/case_collections/case20090920_bugeiryuha2ndedpp600.gif

Yes, is there any problem? It's sure that the authors omits the names of the several successors before Setoguchi-Bizennokami-Masamoto, the 15th successor of the school. I don't know why the authors of the book did that. They have their own idea and we have our own, that's it.

There are more other confusing or problematic descriptions in this book, too, regarding the lineage chart of our style. For example, the entry in page 343 shows another lineage chart about our style but it doesn't make sense, at all.
http://www.jigenryu.jp/case_collections/case20090920_bugeiryuha2ndedpp343.gif

There are too many wrong and unique ( funny) recognitions on this entry to mention here but, the easy one is that it says Master Ueno-Yasuyuki-Genshin(上野靖之源心）, the 27th successor of our style is the 20th successor. In addition, the authors of the book shows the name of Master Ueno-Yasuyuki-Genshin in wrong order, :S

There is another wrong entry in page 194, too.
http://www.jigenryu.jp/case_collections/case20090920_bugeiryuha2ndedpp194.gif

Here the book says Master Ueno-Yasuyuki-Genshin(上野靖之源心）is the successor of Kananha-Shourinji-Kenpo (河南派少林寺拳法） in Japan, which is the name of a Chinese martial arts. But actually the successor of the art is his son, Ueno-Fumiyasu-Genki, our proud 28th successor of Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu.

So we don't value this book at all. There are too many wrong entries on wrong recognitions and information even regarding our style so the same will be about other styles, too.

As you see in the photo of this book, it's a very thick and big book which has countless entries. It is impossible to expect it to be correct about all entries and aspects. The authors admit it in the afterword, too.

Because of its cool appearance and countless entries, there are martial art geeks who like to value it and quote from it in Japan, too. I understand it's very fun, as kinda boy's talk, like my cousin who liked to argue with me about which POKEMON is the strongest and the most powerful, when he was 8 years old.

POKEMON
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pokémon_(anime)

The problem is that, POKEMONs are imaginative creations and nobody will be hurt even whatever you say about it. But martial arts are of real. There are many real and living people who actually are involved.

By the way, ersonally I rather like to spend more time for sword practice than making a reply in this unique sequence of discussion. But we are kinda bored of being spot in relation to the annoying descriptions of the book, Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. And also we don't want our young students to be bothered by mindless comments by the results of careless people's internet search in future, as well.

[KeitaroSugiyama]

Actually, we want to know how to "prove" the legitimateness(?) of a martial art style, as long as I think, it's impossible. You can't rely on any written documents because as you see, it's easily forged. You can buy many variety of old scrolls of old martial art styles, like teacher's licenses, lineage charts, and "secrets" in internet auction at cheap prices easily.

Our head master says that he keeps all the scrolls which from the old successors. According to him, the successors of Teshinsho Jigen Ryu have been very dedicated people. They had kept and inherited the records about countless battles and techniques, political and military gossips at that ages. He says it's in bank box but there's no way to "prove" it.

Could some sort of unique techniques prove the "legitimateness"?? There are many interesting fighting techniques which were developed and invented from countless old real battles in our style. The oldest one is from the days when Japanese people still used straight swords for fighting ( about 1000 years ago), not curved ones like we are familiar with as Japanese swords now. It is called as "Ten-Chi-Jin-Sandan-No-Houkei" （天地人三段の法形）, which means "The three forms of heaven, earth, and the human beings". The master says it represents the very essence of sword fighting and he can explain how it works actually, from the standpoint of of mechanics. You can see the movie in our demo in 2008.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aNlbZclGaI

The form performed by two teachers in black kimonos and grey hakamas in the very beginning segment of the clip is it. But unless you have sufficient knowledge of sword fighiting, you have no idea about what they are doing and how they work, but they look just nonsense. Some may say "it's just a symbolic and spiritual movent", which is not.

There are several sword techniques to defeat Okinawan unique weapons like sai, tonfa, and so on, are also left. When Satsuma, the name of the clan which Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu swords men served for, invaded Okinawa in 18th century, they had very hard time in the battle against Okinawan local fighters who took advantages of those variety of unique weapons. Finally Satsuma succeeded to conquer Okinawa, but Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu people kept studying about those Okinawan local martial arts. My master says that it is recorded in one of the scrolls that some of them even let their daughters married to local martial art successors to disclose the secrets of their arts.

If you are interested in them, come to our dojo. We are happy to share that information. However, even doing that, we know it contributes little to "prove" the legitimateness of the lineage because, if you don't like what we claim, that's it, lol. And that's OK. We respect other people have different idea.

Also, there has been some sort of change for the kanji, from 天真 to 天眞.
I meant the reason they decided to use the older Kanji, it also helps make things look older as well.

Change..? We haven't made any changes in the kanji description of our style because there was no kanji letter "真" in the past when our style was named. We have kept using 眞 so far. But as you see, some articles sometimes use 真, the new and simplified version of 眞 when they refer to our style. I appreciate your good explanation, Mr. Kogusoku.

I appreciate so much for those people who have read my terrible English writing so far! In return(?), I would like to introduce our latest movie clips from last Sunday, September 13th, 2009. I hope you enjoy them! ;)

Our proud teachers;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX-xVB_ZtRM

Our proud students;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh-cKO5sPZY


Sincerely,

Keitaro Sugiyama ;)

[iB1337]

Sugiyama sensei, thank you for your post, and this august has been beautiful today was such a clear day.

Your explanation is much appreciated.
I've obviously made a huge mistake by saying that your art was fake. If you or Ueno sensei has documents backing his schools history then I accept the fact it is koryu.

I also like your videos :-).

[iB1337]

YouTube - Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu Students

Is it typical to use shinken while doing demonstrations and training?

[The Unholy]

Is it typical to use shinken while doing demonstrations and training?

Define "typical".

I have seen people do tameshigiri and then do kata with others using the same sword at the Meiji shrine enbu on November 3rd. I myself have ducked shuriken just before they flew over my head to land in a target at demonstrations at the Ayase Budokan. I even have an article about it in which the author posts a picture of me and exclaims shock over how real the whole thing was and how close to reality we were.

My wife saw the same thing and declared I was an idiot.

I have no idea how the train in the dojo, but this youtube video does not surprise me as a demo in public.

[iB1337]

I was asking about Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu training only.

[KeitaroSugiyama]

Dear Mr.iB1337,

Thank you for your reply.

If you or Ueno sensei has documents backing his schools history then I accept the fact it is koryu.

Well, I'm interested in how can we do that. What kind of documents do you want to check? I would like to hear more detailed and concrete idea or procedure. Could you show us any good example for a school to claim its legitimacy in proper way?

Is it typical to use shinken while doing demonstrations and training?

Depending on your skill and preference though, most people who have trained more than 2 or 3 years in our school prefer to use shinken ( live blade ) for demo and training.

I have a question to you now, Mr.iB1337. Are you a practitioner of any martial art in reality or just a fan, who doesn't practice but likes to collect information and knowledge about it?

I myself have ducked shuriken

You are very luckiy, lol. I have heard from my master that he saw a 8th dan Iaido master loosed a live blade in his demo. The mekugi ( a tiny pin to hold a blade of Japanese sword with its handle part ) had been broken and the Iaido master didn't checked it before his demo so the blade flew away when he swung his sword. Fortunately there was no people who got injured but the Iaido master apologized to everybody, kneeling down and bowing until his forehead touched the floor, after stunned-looking for a while.

[iB1337]

Dear Sugiyama sensei,

I actually train in kenjutsu near Omiya.

I don't need to see any documents, I'll take your word for it. I meant since the bugei ryuha daijiten was incorrect and that Ueno sensei has Tenshinsho Jigen ryu documents that show that the Bugei ryuha daijiten was wrong, I accept that Tenshinsho Jigen ryu is koryu as you say.

I made a mistake, I don't need to see any documents.

Good luck, I hope more people join your training.

[KeitaroSugiyama]

Dear Mr. iB1337,

Thank you for your message but what I want to know is more general advice or help to improve the way we promote ourselves. I know my English is not good and maybe causing confusion because of that. I apologize about it to all the readers of this discussion.

However, I really would like to hear any suggestion to improve the way we promote our legitimacy in more proper way. So I really apologize to ask the same question again but, could you show us any good example for a school to claim its legitimacy in proper way, generally speaking?

I actually train in kenjutsu near Omiya.

Do you mean Omiya in Saitama, Japan? That's really nice because I think the towns around Omiya are as convenient as those of central Tokyo but not as crowded and dirty. What are the names of the dojo you go to and the style you are learning now?

[iB1337]

I live in Iwatsuki near Omiya and Kasukabe on the Noda Line. I do like my area better than Tokyo.

I rather not mention the dojo I study at on THIS forum, sorry. ( I couldn't discuss my art in either case anyway). I can give a hint. I study a school that stems from the first generation menkyo kaiden holders of Shinkage ryu.

For legitimacy it is difficult to prove anything in Japanese history without some doubts. People during the Edo era began keeping family trees and sometimes they wrote in things to make themselves look better or they made several honest mistakes.

So even if you have old documents they could be wrong just like certain family trees. In Koryu this has happened a lot as well so certainty dealing with history in Japan is difficult.

But, to offer a good reason to believe a lineage is anyone's best bet for proof, due to the nature of written records in Japan during the Edo era.

The ultimate way to prove a lineage is to have writings from past masters in a collection that has been past down through one school. For example, past masters thoughts on the martial art, or sayings, additions to the ryu-ha, a densho of sorts with the list of names and stamps next to them proving transmission from one generation to the next.

If people have these documents then the rest of their history becomes more believable, without them then there is always a certain kind of doubt. But, honestly there is no real way to prove anything without doubt even with the records. It comes down to believability.

[KeitaroSugiyama]

Dear Mr. iB1337,

Glad to hear from you again.


I rather not mention the dojo I study at on THIS forum, sorry. ( I couldn't discuss my art in either case anyway)

Why? Well, Don't be shy. You pointed out four martial art schools and called people to spot "fake koryu" among them in the beginning of this discussion thread. I made a reply, introducing my name, the school I belong to and the position there. If you are not a real practitioner of Japanese martial arts, I don't care but you say you are a real practitioner and currently go to some school. I don't know what is the common sense of non-Japanese people about that kind of issue but in my sense as a practitioner of traditional Japanese martial art, making fun of other styles and their people like that but hiding yourself like that on the other hand is not fair.

I can give a hint. I study a school that stems from the first generation menkyo kaiden holders of Shinkage ryu.

Thanks for the hint. There are not many traditional martial art school near Omiya and along Tobu Noda line in Saitama prefecture, which is famous enough to attract non-Japanese people.

The one I think of now is Shinbukan dojo, by Kuroda Tetsuzan sensei. Well, there he teaches Komagawa Kaishin Ryu and it is said that Komagawa Kaishin, the founder of the Komagawa Kaishin Ryu was a disciple of Kamiizumi Nobutsuna (Kamiizumi Ise no Kami), the founder of Shinkage ryu.
http://www.shinjinkai.org/programs_shinbukan.html

So, are you a student of Kuroda Tetsuzan sensei?

I hope you are not because if so, you broke the rule of Kudoda Tetsuzan sensei's dojo. Because the dojo rule #5 in Japanese, #6 in English of his dojo, clearly declares;

5.他流儀、他武道の批判をしないこと。

6. Please refrain from making negative comments in reference to other forms or styles of BUDO.

The Rules of Conduct for the SHINBUKAN KURODA DOJO Members
http://www010.upp.so-net.ne.jp/shinbukan/shinbukan3.html

In the comment of another discussion thread you say;
Before I started my second koryu, I asked permission of my first school if I could train in the second, then when I recieved his permission and a letter from him, I went to the other school to ask their permission to join. I had the permission of both schools to train, before I did any training.
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=34055164&postcount=43

It's a very respectable way to change the school you belong to because some people tend to hide that they belonged to another traditional Japanese martial art schools in Japan when they change the school because sometimes it could be a problem ( actually, "hiding it" is a problem.) So why don't you introduce yourself here like that, I mean, in a respectable manner?

My master, Kagenori Ueno, the head master of Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu KNOWS Kuroda Tetsuzan sensei. It's not often but they talk on the phone. I will ask my master to check with Kuroda Tetsuzan sesei when he calls him next time whether Kuroda Tetsuzan sensei has a non-Japanese student who came to join his school with a letter of permission from another school.

But, honestly there is no real way to prove anything without doubt even with the records. It comes down to believability.

I agree with that. Then please tell us about your opinion of "how to spot the fake koryu" from just watching short tiny movie clips of Youtube.

Sincerely

Keitaro Sugiyama

[iB1337]

Sugiyama sensei,

I don't train with Kuroda sensei, but I'd like to. I've gone to one of his seminars several years ago. But, he doesn't give out rank and I would like to teach one day.

I rather not discuss my art or mention anything personal on this forum.
My teacher was the one that thought your ryuha was probably fake and made up out of several arts and given a history.

But, I'm willing to accept your explanation as good enough.

[TRK]

Also Mr. Machida doesn't have any authority to teach anything but his karate.

I am curious about this comment and wonder if you would elaborate. I train in the dojo shown, though not in Battojutsu.

As far as koryu or not, I have never heard any claim that any art taught there is koryu.