Hapkido-Striking Thoughts

[Giovanni]

Interesting comments from the owner and main instructor at the school I go to, Hyun's Hapkido in Chicago.

Grandmaster Hyun came out to observe the Black Belt class this past Saturday and offered us some advice on strikes. I'm paraphrasing, but one of the things he said was to visualize the hand as the end of a sword or knife. This will give us the correct motion and angle to use when striking. More paraphrasing, but he also said that this will help eliminate the sport mentality, because punching is a sports technique, not a self-defense technique.

I knew there was not any punching in classical Hapkido already, but I had never had someone explain it in quite this way (although GM Hyun had explained the striking technique in similar terms before, 45 degree angle, cutting with knife hand, etc.), and these last comments made sense and helped me to better understand what we were working on that day.

My question is, how is the notion of Hapkido striking approached in other dojangs? Same kind of idea or different regarding cutting motion, sport v. self-defense distinction?

I'd like to hear from any Aikido people too. I've heard Koyo say that Aikido atemi are cutting motions. Same kind of idea with hand-as-sword?

Thanks and best regards.

[Bruce W Sims]

Well, John, I'm going to guess that you will run into the same dichotomy as the difference between forms-work and self-defense, but I am just spit-balling now.

For me, Hapkido is all about combat and accepting responsibility for doing damage to stop the fight if that's what it takes. In this view there are three places where I find people consistently fall-down in the training.

a.) The first place is accepting the necessity to damage another Human being in the name of surviving the encounter. This is basic-ly a mental commitment and usually only comes after a person has been "blooded" and retaliates in some wild and frenzied manner. By that time its too late and the inevitable loss occurs. Take a page from professionals in contact sports who go into the game with their mind already committed to the belief that when someone gets hurt, they won't be the last one.

b.) The second place is that few people actually train to do damage with their bodies. They learn a lot of exotic movements and hand-forms but never actually steel that weapon to do what it is intended to do. Think of how many forms have Inverted Knifehand techniques and then ask yourself if 1.) you could break anything with such a hand-form and b.) if you would not rather resort to a technique which came more naturally. That decided, take the admittedly fewer kicks and strikes and train to destroy something using that limited number of weapons. Toughen the area that makes contact, and strengthen the appendage that drives that weapon.

c.) The last point is to condition yourself to take a sound shot. I am not talking about doing sit-ups and push-ups, but rather get used to the idea of getting tagged and experiencing the effect it has on you. Most people don't collapse because they were damaged by a hit, but rather because of the shock of being struck at all. KYOKUSHINKAI Karate people don't all go on to compete, but the typical class has a lot of punching and kicking to the legs and torso. After a few weeks you will be surprised at what you can take....and what you can't. The Human body can put-up with quite a bit if you know how to set your mind to deal with it. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Spinmaster]

I disagree with the idea that punching is for sport, while knife-hands and such are self defense. A fist can do a lot of damage.

[koyo]

It is the sword PRINCIPLES of ki ken tai ichi intent technique and body alignment as one dynamic and acurate strike that aikido uses. The strike can be with a fist handblade elbow knee or foot.

The reason the handblade is used more often in aikido than in purely striking arts is that it can more readily turn into a grasp to execute a throw or pin AFTER the atemi.

[Giovanni]

I disagree with the idea that punching is for sport, while knife-hands and such are self defense. A fist can do a lot of damage.

i agree that yes a fist can do damage, to a point. but i also think you're susceptible to hurting yourself if you miss, even by a fraction. i personally prefer the palm heel.

[koyo]

If serious study of swordwork had been fundamental to your training the thousands of suburi (single cut training) and tsurugi (wringing of the sword on contact) shall have given you powerfull and flexible wrists and forearms.

This results in a grip like a vice and a very strong punch.Add to that momentum,body alignment and accuracy and I guarantee that a punch is MOST effective.

[Giovanni]

love the pictures you post koyo.

[Bruce W Sims]

I disagree with the idea that punching is for sport, while knife-hands and such are self defense. A fist can do a lot of damage.

My Bad... sorry about that. I didn't mean to make that sound like a conclusion. Rather I was opining on the comparitive qualities of basic hand-strikes versus more exotic hand-forms. If there was any conclusion intended, it was closer to making the case that any hand or foot technique requires training in order to perform the intended task. A person is certainly at liberty to use any weapon they choose, but just knowing the biomechanics of its execution is not enough. Some piece of this touches on the old arguement between form-work and sparring, I'm sure. Identifying a tool is not the same as knowing how to use that tool effectively. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Spinmaster]

Bruce, I was actually referring to a comment in the original post (quoted below):


I'm paraphrasing, but one of the things he said was to visualize the hand as the end of a sword or knife. This will give us the correct motion and angle to use when striking. More paraphrasing, but he also said that this will help eliminate the sport mentality, because punching is a sports technique, not a self-defense technique.

[Giovanni]

i don't disagree that a punch can be used effectively. i also don't think that gm hyun was saying that a punch can't be effective. i think it's another tool in the toolbox, depending on the situation.

again, i was paraphrasing my instructor's bad english...lol...so sorry about any confusion.

[koyo]

This happens a lot. Often an aikidoka shall be told "Do not fight the attacker fence him"

This means use the timing and decisive principles of swordsmanship but leads to students attempting to simulate swordcuts. Which is not entrely wrong but is not what the sensei meant.

[Rebel Wado]

The context of a statement is very important. I can see how something could be said and it be taken to mean different things.

I am one that advocates open hand strikes for self-defense, but that does not mean closed fist strikes are not used or are inferior. It all depends on the target area and situation. Open hand to head is good, but closed fist works very well to chin, liver, spleen, hip track, small intestines, etc.

And you got hammer fists with knuckle rakes to slice someone open and make them bleed.

Match the weapon to the target.

[Kraen]

Perhaps he was referring to the 'boxing' sport MENTALITY of "trading blows" that usually comes along with western society and punches. One of the main things that needs to be covered with new people in the club regarding punches is going over how these are NOT boxing-esque style punches. It's not wear the guy down, throw in a combo, get out, do it again.

Or perhaps I'm way off-base.

-Kraen

[SeeDarkly]

Kraen,
I once read in a Geoff Thompson book something that underlined your point. He trained at a boxing gym where the fighters in there whilst working on the bag would spread their weight over three or four punch combinations. Whereas he was practising to put all his weight and power into single strikes...
Two complete and different areas of emhpasis.
I have found in full contact striking/sparring the enormous difference in how punches feel when clothed in a sixteen ounce boxing glove as opposed to an mma glove or a bare hand. I personally, noticed how I subconsciously shifted the intent of my punches when using boxing gloves, I realised I wasn't looking for a knockout per se-rather to stagger or "stun" them to create more openings.
Punches are a good striking tool but can be neutered by the mentality of the exponent or their tool conditioning. If you are going to strike someone's chin barehanded, by lord you had better have conditioned your hand first:)

[dortiz]

I guess I hear differently than most people. First in relation to the sword comment. My picture is that most folks punch in a sport way. What I mean is that they stop at the target. Stab a person or object with a sword in similar fashion and you maybe just "Tipped them". A sword plunges through it target. If its a cut, same thing deep and penetrating slash.
Therefore in hearing this I would focus on punches that had more drive in to my targets and work on the different strikes like angled hammer fist at temples and clavicles as well. Just like a sword my elbow would point, I would extend and pull all the way through on these. My straight punches too would look like a thrust through a soft object as I punched full through my target.
I think as just mentioned folks work the bag by throwing controlled punches versus destructive and penetrating. Sport vs self defense to me.

Dave O.

[Kraen]

I guess I hear differently than most people. First in relation to the sword comment. My picture is that most folks punch in a sport way. What I mean is that they stop at the target. Stab a person or object with a sword in similar fashion and you maybe just "Tipped them". A sword plunges through it target. If its a cut, same thing deep and penetrating slash.
Therefore in hearing this I would focus on punches that had more drive in to my targets and work on the different strikes like angled hammer fist at temples and clavicles as well. Just like a sword my elbow would point, I would extend and pull all the way through on these. My straight punches too would look like a thrust through a soft object as I punched full through my target.
I think as just mentioned folks work the bag by throwing controlled punches versus destructive and penetrating. Sport vs self defense to me.

Dave O.

Yes. This is what I was getting at.

So, survey, what do you think?

-Kraen

[Spinmaster]

I guess I hear differently than most people. First in relation to the sword comment. My picture is that most folks punch in a sport way. What I mean is that they stop at the target. Stab a person or object with a sword in similar fashion and you maybe just "Tipped them". A sword plunges through it target. If its a cut, same thing deep and penetrating slash.
Therefore in hearing this I would focus on punches that had more drive in to my targets and work on the different strikes like angled hammer fist at temples and clavicles as well. Just like a sword my elbow would point, I would extend and pull all the way through on these. My straight punches too would look like a thrust through a soft object as I punched full through my target.
I think as just mentioned folks work the bag by throwing controlled punches versus destructive and penetrating. Sport vs self defense to me.

Dave O.

Good post. I would like to note something about the "sport vs. self defense" thing though. My Aikido coach also teaches MMA, and in both classes he emphasises the importance of "striking through" the target. So I don't think you can just boil things down to "sport fighting stops at target but self defense strikes through".

[koyo]

The major reason that aikido strikes strike through is that they should be aimed at a kuzushi,weakpoint in posture, to unbalance the attacker.

Striking through to a kuzushi makes it most difficult for the recepient to "ride" the blow.
making the strike more effective.

[Rebel Wado]

I would like to interject how similar phrases were used in my experience.

Grandmaster Hyun came out to observe the Black Belt class this past Saturday and offered us some advice on strikes. I'm paraphrasing, but one of the things he said was to visualize the hand as the end of a sword or knife. This will give us the correct motion and angle to use when striking.

A lot of time is often spent on working good footwork and hitting proper target locations in combat sports. However, whereas timing is emphasized, attacking through kuzushi is less emphasized except, IME, in Thai clinching which is all about attacking through kuzushi.

The motions of a cut are very similar to clinching motions. Clinching is not grappling, although it can progress into grappling. Clinching is striking close range to unbalance therefore it should be noted that close range striking, IMHO, involving cutting is the same types of motions that work for Thai clinch.

In addition, slicing motions used in street fighting and bare knuckle boxing as well as slicing motions in elbow strikes are used to cut open the enemy, make them bleed. This type of striking is not used in many combat sports as it is not allowed by the rules. Where it is allowed, it is usually professional bouts only.

I would add that open hand and closed fist striking both use the finger tips as a pivot point. I do not believe this is what Grandmaster Hyun was referring to based on what was paraphrased. However, take for example putting your finger tips on the temple of the enemy, and strike them with your palm edge along the jaw line or between the jaw line and ear. The finger tips do not move, the rest of the strike pivots around the finger tips. This is a powerful strike that needs only a few inches for power generation. At longer ranges the finger tips would strike at the temple and then the palm edge would hit a fraction of a second after that using the finger tips as a pivot point. This is not the same as the sword tip, this is more like the hand motion when cutting with a sword or casting a fishing pole. It is much more linear. I say this to not disagree with Grandmaster Hyun but just to add in how striking is taught differently using pivot points. A sword tip gains acceleration as the end of the fulcrum so the circle creates acceleration, with open handed strikes, the circle does not add as efficiently to the acceleration, but instead rotational motion with a more linear path is going to be more efficient for generating acceleration... much more like a blunt weapon and less like a blade. IMHO.

...visualize the hand as the end of a sword or knife... this will help eliminate the sport mentality, because punching is a sports technique, not a self-defense technique.

I've heard this type of statement be used to put people into the correct "mental state" for striking and to help overcome fear. Rather than retreat, always attack, etc.

Often in sparring, people will try to remain in punching range or just outside of it... this is because elbow and knee range is where MOST knockouts happen. In self defense, striking is often to bridge the gap to quickly enter through elbow and knee range where you can do the most damage. To stay at punching ranges is not recommended for self-defense because you will only give the enemy more chance to trade blows or use a weapons such as a knife or stick. Sport mentality often trains to enter close range, do your damage and disengage. Self-defense mentality is to enter continuous attack like an accordion, whereas you enter to point blank, they get knocked back or down (increasing the distance) and you enter again to point blank, etc.

Also, you always strike through the target, even in combat sports. The only pulling punches is to control the damage or where the rules prohibit striking through (e.g. point fighting in karate). The exception is when the enemy is up against a wall or the ground, as striking through only causes you to "bounce back" and if you miss you can hurt yourself. Striking against a wall or ground is to use different techniques such as placing your elbow under their chin and hitting your own fist to drive the elbow into the target, etc.